Marvel's Growing Older Disgracefully

(Yes, this is a response to a post going around how maybe it’s okay if adults are in fandom as long as they understand that fandom is for ickle kiddie-boos and walk on eggshells.  Um, no.  Back in my day, we kicked y’all off our yahoogroups so we could post adult material, and rigorously didn’t post adult material if the list allowed you.)

So, back in the day, several of the authors of an LJ community that posted NSFW fic met up and had a group photo, which they posted.  Apparently, some of the 18 year olds said, “Ewwwwwww!  They’re all, like, oooooollllld!” 

There’s actually a good reason for that. 

Writing is part being good with words and part being good at turning your life experiences into something that other people want to read.  Remember my previous rant about how you can’t assume a mystery writer is a homicidal maniac, and you can’t assume that a reader who likes a character has the same personal flaws as that character?  There’s a reason people assume these things about authors. 

See, if you’ve never fallen in love, you might think romance is when the other person brings you a dozen roses and a box of chocolates.  And that’s fine!  That’s romantic, too!  But if you have fallen in love, you might remember the time that you woke up and went to go to class and found a bunch of wildflowers and a plastic ring from a bubblegum machine tucked under your windshield wiper.  And you might remember the half touched, half about to burst out laughing expression on your sweetie’s face when you showed up to class wearing that tacky plastic ring.  You might think that love is thinking the other person is the best-looking person in the world, or that love is wanting to spend your life with someone else.  That’s love, too! Well, at least the second one is (the first is probably just infatuation). But if you’ve been in love before you’ll know that love is also hurting all over because your sweetie’s abusive parent died and they’re unexpectedly destroyed over it.  The latter is worth a million flowery declarations. 

Now, I’m not saying that no one under 30 can write.  Some young people have had very full lives.  And some young people have a natural talent for extrapolating from their own feelings.  Virgins can write convincingly about sex, even.  But the more life experience you have, the easier it is to extrapolate, and the easier it is to come up with the specific details that make things feel real and true.  

(I am very, very lucky in the people I found; I’d have taken some truly awful advice Back When, were it given to me.)

Good lord even Tumblr has been around long enough to have some history to it. Did you think that six year old meme that makes you giggle just appeared like magic one day?

How do you come into a space where AO3 exists, where there are probably fics on ff.net that are drinking age in some counties, and not realize fandom’s age? Do you really not see the bones of what’s before you, the grandmothers and mothers we built this world upon?

Fandom is old, old, old. Don’t tell me there weren’t Regency misses writing a story where they marry Mr. Darcy, in their heads if not on paper. We’ve always done this. We’re always going to do it.

Someday you’ll be older too, and fandom will grow on the bones of your fic and your art and your comments.

How can anyone look around fandom, any of it, and think that this love fades, that we have to turn away?

but if you’re an adult, say, in your mid to late 20s or older, especially if you’re in a fandom that’s filled mostly with teenagers, you do need to be careful about how you interact with young people in fandom.

you need to be careful about the content you produce or share, and if you do something that people take issue with, you need to be prepared to address that in an honest and meaningful way, instead of blocking the young people who are telling you you’ve done something wrong and going on a rant about how “it’s just fiction” and “ship and let ship” and “do whatever you want” and “i’m too old for this.”

if you’re an adult in fandom, you need to be able to recognize how the content you produce might affect young people, and honestly, you should be able to show maturity when dealing with it, because you are still an adult talking to many people who are literal children.

We all know who you’re talking about and which situations you’re talking about. What you really have an issue with isn’t anything to do with anyone’s age, it’s about people producing things that other people find hurtful, then not responding the way the hurt people would like them to when called out on it. That can and does happen anywhere, regardless of the ages of the people involved. It’s a separate issue that should be discussed and dealt with.

And yes, in some of those recent situations, the ages of the offenders or the offended were brought into the discussion, by both sides at different times. The age difference does complicate things, but that doesn’t mean that it’s the main issue.

You may be thinking “why do you care if I focus on age, it was a salient part of the argument for me, you’re trying to defend adults who don’t care how their words hurt children!” But here’s the thing.

You may not realize this, but in other fandoms adults have been doxxed, have been threatened, have been outed because they were creating things that someone, somewhere deemed “dangerous for minors.” 

Adults who were creating things that were not meant for minors, that were openly and blatantly tagged as being NSFW, explicit, as containing triggering material. I’ve even seen people who weren’t even creating the offending material being harassed, bullied, and threatened, for daring to stand up for the people who were. Not even just online, but in person. I’ve been a victim of it myself, though not to the extent that I’ve seen many others go through.

All because a segment of the fandom decided that because certain content could be dangerous for minors, it should never, ever be posted anywhere a minor might possibly read it. Adults who do post it are responsible for every bad effect it could possibly have on anyone who reads it and are horrible people for not willingly taking on that responsibility.

I know the situations you’re talking about are different. In many of those situations, adults chose to interact with the minors who were complaining about them, and yeah, when you’re choosing to directly interact with a minor you need to tread carefully. 

But once you go down the “adults in fandom are responsible for the minors in fandom” road, if lots of people start clinging to that mindset, that is where it can lead. And that is an extremely serious issue. It can literally destroy careers and ruin lives.

I am not in this or any other fandom to produce content for minors. I have asked many times for minors not to follow me; I don’t block them, but I know quite a few people who block any minor who follows them. I produce enough SFW content that I don’t mind minors being able to, say, reblog it from others on their dash, but I do not want them following me and getting explicit content directly from me, full stop. If it becomes an issue, I will start blocking people.

If you’re a minor, I’m old enough to be your mother. But I’ve got my own kid, and I’m not in fandom to babysit anyone else. When I create or reblog content, I do not and will not take the presence of minors into account when doing so. Because that is not my job. 

Now, right now I’m choosing to get involved in this discussion, which will involve people much younger than me, including minors. So yeah, I’m being careful about what I say and how I say it. And I agree that any adult who willingly engages in conversation with minors needs to do the same.

But I simply can’t agree with your last two paragraphs. Those “literal children” already have parents. If their own parents aren’t monitoring what media they consume, aren’t having conversations with them about problematic messages in media, it certainly isn’t my job to do so. Period. 

This is an excellent time for teens in fandom (and in general) to stop seeing every adult they come in contact with as an “authority figure” and start viewing us as human beings who are living our own lives with our own motivations, problems, desires, and inclinations that have nothing to do with them. That’s something that will serve them well in life.

How people interact with oppressed groups they aren’t a part of who complain about their representation of those oppressed groups is an entirely separate issue that is not about the age of the people on either side. Age can complicate it, especially in that it can be difficult to communicate across a generation gap when people on either side have such enormously different experiences. I think that that has caused some problems.

This is an excellent time for teens in fandom (and in general) to stopseeing every adult they come in contact with as an “authority figure” and start viewing us as human beings who are living our own lives with our own motivations, problems, desires, and inclinations that have nothing to do with them. That’s something that will serve them well in life.

Fandom is a good way for teenagers to learn how to interact with people in different age groups as peers. Because that’s what we are, we are fandom peers posting on the same web sites and obsessing over the same shows and  no one in fandom has any authority over anyone else (no matter how much some people might try to claim it). I am not your teacher, your parent, your babysitter, or anyone in any position of authority over you or anyone with a responsibility for taking care of you. Nor am I willing to take on that role. The vast majority of the billions of adults in the world fit that description. Only a very few, ones you know in real life, are responsible for you personally - and soon that number will be none as you become an adult yourself.

It was assumed that everyone who knew the parent would keep a vague eye on the child because friends don’t let friends’ little ones run into traffic. But at NO POINT was it ever assumed or expressed that the adult fans had to stop being adult fans talking about adult things. If a minor walked into the “How to write explicit bondage” panel, then someone gently suggested that this was not the place for the kid to be. If the kid found the dick pics in the art show, they were told “go ask Mommy what ‘slash’ means.”

I get that the OP wants to protect children, but while it’s my job to make sure someone too little to take care of themselves doesn’t get hurt, it has NEVER, through three generations of fandom, been my job to be anyone’s actual parent or to stop adulting around adults.

but if you’re an adult, say, in your mid to late 20s or older, especially if you’re in a fandom that’s filled mostly with teenagers, you do need to be careful about how you interact with young people in fandom.

you need to be careful about the content you produce or share, and if you do something that people take issue with, you need to be prepared to address that in an honest and meaningful way, instead of blocking the young people who are telling you you’ve done something wrong and going on a rant about how “it’s just fiction” and “ship and let ship” and “do whatever you want” and “i’m too old for this.”

if you’re an adult in fandom, you need to be able to recognize how the content you produce might affect young people, and honestly, you should be able to show maturity when dealing with it, because you are still an adult talking to many people who are literal children.

We all know who you’re talking about and which situations you’re talking about. What you really have an issue with isn’t anything to do with anyone’s age, it’s about people producing things that other people find hurtful, then not responding the way the hurt people would like them to when called out on it. That can and does happen anywhere, regardless of the ages of the people involved. It’s a separate issue that should be discussed and dealt with.

And yes, in some of those recent situations, the ages of the offenders or the offended were brought into the discussion, by both sides at different times. The age difference does complicate things, but that doesn’t mean that it’s the main issue.

You may be thinking “why do you care if I focus on age, it was a salient part of the argument for me, you’re trying to defend adults who don’t care how their words hurt children!” But here’s the thing.

You may not realize this, but in other fandoms adults have been doxxed, have been threatened, have been outed because they were creating things that someone, somewhere deemed “dangerous for minors.” 

Adults who were creating things that were not meant for minors, that were openly and blatantly tagged as being NSFW, explicit, as containing triggering material. I’ve even seen people who weren’t even creating the offending material being harassed, bullied, and threatened, for daring to stand up for the people who were. Not even just online, but in person. I’ve been a victim of it myself, though not to the extent that I’ve seen many others go through.

All because a segment of the fandom decided that because certain content could be dangerous for minors, it should never, ever be posted anywhere a minor might possibly read it. Adults who do post it are responsible for every bad effect it could possibly have on anyone who reads it and are horrible people for not willingly taking on that responsibility.

I know the situations you’re talking about are different. In many of those situations, adults chose to interact with the minors who were complaining about them, and yeah, when you’re choosing to directly interact with a minor you need to tread carefully. 

But once you go down the “adults in fandom are responsible for the minors in fandom” road, if lots of people start clinging to that mindset, that is where it can lead. And that is an extremely serious issue. It can literally destroy careers and ruin lives.

I am not in this or any other fandom to produce content for minors. I have asked many times for minors not to follow me; I don’t block them, but I know quite a few people who block any minor who follows them. I produce enough SFW content that I don’t mind minors being able to, say, reblog it from others on their dash, but I do not want them following me and getting explicit content directly from me, full stop. If it becomes an issue, I will start blocking people.

If you’re a minor, I’m old enough to be your mother. But I’ve got my own kid, and I’m not in fandom to babysit anyone else. When I create or reblog content, I do not and will not take the presence of minors into account when doing so. Because that is not my job. 

Now, right now I’m choosing to get involved in this discussion, which will involve people much younger than me, including minors. So yeah, I’m being careful about what I say and how I say it. And I agree that any adult who willingly engages in conversation with minors needs to do the same.

But I simply can’t agree with your last two paragraphs. Those “literal children” already have parents. If their own parents aren’t monitoring what media they consume, aren’t having conversations with them about problematic messages in media, it certainly isn’t my job to do so. Period. 

This is an excellent time for teens in fandom (and in general) to stop seeing every adult they come in contact with as an “authority figure” and start viewing us as human beings who are living our own lives with our own motivations, problems, desires, and inclinations that have nothing to do with them. That’s something that will serve them well in life.

How people interact with oppressed groups they aren’t a part of who complain about their representation of those oppressed groups is an entirely separate issue that is not about the age of the people on either side. Age can complicate it, especially in that it can be difficult to communicate across a generation gap when people on either side have such enormously different experiences. I think that that has caused some problems.

And as someone who’s been in fandom since some of the people currently on Tumblr were even born… look, you do not get to come into fandom and demand it cater to you in every way and all the time.

Just as RL has adult venues, there are parts of fandom that aren’t for minors. Those spaces, and the people who inhabit them, have every right to be there, and every right to not want to be examples or role models or what the fuck ever. Their responsibility is to clearly demarcate and tag those spaces, but that’s it.

It’s the responsibility of minors (and their parents and guardians) to realise that hey, the whole world isn’t a gigantic childproofed playpen. It is not the responsibility of adults to censor themselves because ‘oh, won’t someone think of the children?’ The back button’s right there, honey, use it. And Tumblr Savior, and Ao3 saviour, hell, get your ass to Dreamwidth and set up a journal with actual functional privacy controls if you want more control over your fannish experience. An experience it is YOUR responsibility, and no-one else’s, to moderate.

One more thing, while I’m telling you to get off my lawn. Do you know why we have Ao3? Because for years and years, ‘oh but the CHILDREN!’ was used as an excuse for all manner of conservative/right-wing/bigoted/generally unpleasant people to go after anything they considered ‘inappropriate’ - LGBT/queer stories, stories with sexual content, you name it. Look up the Fanlore entry on Strikethrough. Look at what Youtube and Tumblr are doing right now with their ‘safe mode’ nonsense.  It’s a very slippery slope, one your well-intentioned activism is pouring great heaping buckets full of grease onto. 

this is an issue of rhetoric. 

you might see fanfiction as a genre and think, “oh! i like this genre. this content is for me. because i like it generally, i must be the audience.”

well, no.

take fantasy as a comparison. you might pick up, oh, harry potter, read it, and think, “i love this. this is fantasy. fantasy must be for me.”

and then someone says, “oh! you should try the silmarillion!”

so you get it from the library, and you can’t seem to make it ten pages in. you have no idea what’s going on, who’s who, what the story is, and you’re drowning in thick prose that’s nothing like harry potter. 

if you’re a young person just getting into fantasy, harry potter is written specifically for you. but the silmarillion isn’t. the silmarillion was written for adults as an expansion of an existing universe, speaking to a successful story (the hobbit, and then later lord of the rings). if you haven’t read either the hobbit or the lord of the rings, and maybe you’re young and aren’t accustomed to that writing style, then no, you are not the audience. the silmarillion was not written for you. and so it doesn’t make sense to posthumously subtweet jrr tolkein and say, “you really ought to think of the children.”

you may not be the audience for every piece of media ever made. it may feel like it because of capitalism and consumer culture. it may feel like it because fandom is a small community and you can converse with the content creators with ease. it may feel like it because you like a big portion of fanfiction you read.

but you are only the audience for content that suits you, content that you enjoy, or content that you’re trying out just to see what you think. 

The shit I wrote at age 15 was terrible, but I was enthused so I kept at it. And kept at it. And now I seem to have forgotten to stop.

six to fifteen years older than you

So apparently, we all have to leave fandom in our mid-thirties again…

I (@ozhawkauthor) meant no insult to your very good point, but I’m sick of ageism in fandom. Most of the very best fandom writers I know are well into their thirties or even more. They are the BNFs, if such a thing can be said to exist today: people with hundreds or thousands of subscribers on Ao3. They are the best because they have been honing their craft for all those years.

I’m all for encouraging new writers of any age - ask any of the writers I mentor! - but I will not stand for teenagers telling me or anyone else that we don’t belong here because of our age.

The shit I wrote at age 15 was terrible, but I was enthused so I kept at it. And kept at it. And now I seem to have forgotten to stop.

six to fifteen years older than you

So apparently, we all have to leave fandom in our mid-thirties again...

Well then I’d say thank fuck I’m nobody’s mom, because I promise my interests have not shriveled up and died just because I turned 27, and I highly doubt they will when I turn 57 either. Am I just supposed to stare at drapery all day just because I’m not 19 anymore? Do people think men just stop being attractive, and movies suddenly aren’t interesting, and having sometimes witty, sometimes idiotic and raunchy banter with friends online isn’t fun anymore when you’re an adult? I promise it is. It gets better, in fact. So I shall continue to enjoy my Meemaw-ness here on this, my blog.

And now that I am an adult and a mother of young children, my interests didn’t just fizzle out the moment I shoved a human out of my uterus. I’m still me. I still love the things that I love. And I would hope that my children appreciate that I refuse to flush my personality in favor of only being Mom™.

So, in conclusion:

FUCK OFF ANON

“How old are you?” she asked.

I told her my age, probably about 28 at the time.

“I’ve been reading fanfiction longer than you’ve been alive,” she said.

Here’s another story. A couple of years ago at GeekGirlCon they had an “elders speak” panel. It included some women who had organized Star Trek cons in the 70s and 80s. So, first off, we really have always been here, this is a kind of geekiness that has always belonged to women. And they talked about women doing fandom back then secretly, about having to ask their husbands for money so they could travel to meet other fans. And two of the women on this panel were a couple who’d met each other in fandom.

FYI In 1993, the most popular Superman website was run by a woman named Zoomway. She was a life long Superman fan who started the site after Lois and Clark hit the air and she had thousands of women (many of whom were older btw) who followed her site. She wasn’t some 20 year old kid. She was a grown woman with life experience decades older than most of you who was writing feminist commentary about Superman and attending fan expos before any of you were born. I was only a kid when I first starting reading her writing and she was the one who introduced me to Superman fandom. She died of cancer a few years ago and her loss was deeply felt.

When I was a kid, I made fake bookcovers to hide my Battestar Galactica novelizations & pretend they were something more socially acceptable.  I was teased for my love of sci fi/fantasy/superheroes.

In college, I met a guy I’ll always remember fondly… he introduced me to his roommate (now my wonderful hubs), and he LOVED my geek side.  He acted like every bit of truth I shared was a gift, that every way I was more myself was to be treasured.  He wasn’t ‘the one’ for me, but he helped me love myself.  

In my 20′s I went to Star Trek and comics cons for the first time.  I read ST Zines.  I had the honor of hearing Bjo Trimble speak about ST, about fandom dating back to the 1950s, about women in fandom, about creativity. I met George Takei (gratitude to fans & so much joy), Mark Lenard (sweet, sweet man), Tim Russ, John de Lanci (more arrogant than Q), Marina Sirtis, Robert O’Reilley (so gentle), and Kim Cattrall. I collected trading cards & Christmas tree ornaments & ST/STTNG novels & action figures (hubs loved this phase cuz it was always easy to find inexpensive gifts I’d LOVE).  I went crazy over Lois & Clark: the New Adventures of Superman at this time, too, and read so much wonderful fic and so many novelizations and thoughtful essays. I lurked at the edges of Buffy fandom and West Wing fandom and loved them. As the Internet bloomed, I found Jane Austen/P&P fandom.  I wrote at DWG for 10 yrs and chatted in the Tea Room for HOURS and made life-long friends I treasure more than imaginable. 

Real life weighed me down for several yrs.  Losses & illness & adjusting to being a ‘special needs mom’.  

But after CATWS came out I felt fan passion flaring in me again.  I started writing fic and making friends again and found Tumblr & ShieldShock fandom. I started @shieldshockfanfic  .

“I’m 95. I’m not dead.”   Fandom makes me HAPPY.   It helps me cope w/life.

I tried scrap booking and LOATHED it (expensive and tedious).  Why on Earth would I give up what I love now?  I’m NOT going back to hiding what I really like, to covering it up and pretending.

I read an article recently positing that the way you make fun of people reveals more about you and your fears than anything to do with them.  

So, don’t be afraid of getting older, fandom kids.  

I see a lot of young-ish fans on Tumblr being uncomfortable with the idea of “old people” still being in fandom. Even episode 17 of One True Podcast, “Stomping On Each Other’s Lawns - Generational Divides in Fandom”, which was trying to have people from both sides of “the generation gap” actually had fans in their early 20s and late 20s and referred to the fact that there were even some people in their 40s and 50s kicking around tumblr–acknowledging older fans while implicitly claiming they’re much rarer than in reality.

Tumblr is:

13-17 - 15%

18-34 - 41%

35-54 - 29%

55+ - 15%

There are plenty of very young people on tumblr. There are plenty of not-so-young people on tumblr. It’s quite a spread.

AO3 was proposed in 2007, almost a decade ago. The people who jumped on board to help build it initially were not primarily students. We were mostly adults with careers already; that’s what gave us the skills to take on a major project like that. A decade later, I am in my mid-30′s. Some are younger; many are much older.

There was that silly wank a while back about the X-Files supposedly being for teens the same way Buffy was marketed for younger people… only The X-Files was blatantly marketed for an adult demographic back in 1993 when it premiered. Twenty-something plus twenty-three years equals a fanbase in its late 40s. The venerable X-Files archive, Gossamer, was started by people who are now officially Old. Same with Fanfiction.net, MediaMiner, and all of the other great fandom infrastructure we’ve known and loved.

I hate that “The kids these days” shit. Young people are just as welcome in fandom as anyone else.

But I wish you guys wouldn’t sell yourselves short by thinking that you have to be ready to build AO3 when you’re a teenager and that you’re passé and must abandon all of your hobbies by 30.

Mainstream media is already going to tell you that adult women are required to take care of other people’s children instead of taking care of ourselves. Culture is already going to tell you that old women can’t have fun or seek pleasure, that women in general are suspect and can’t be trusted to read “problematic” books without being brainwashed.

Mainstream media is already going to tell you that adult women are required to take care of other people’s children instead of taking care of ourselves. Culture is already going to tell you that old women can’t have fun or seek pleasure, that women in general are suspect and can’t be trusted to read “problematic” books without being brainwashed.

It’s okay to enjoy “problematic” fiction.

It’s okay to draw fanart and write fanfiction that appeals to you, and you alone.

You’re allowed to ship whatever you want. Let me repeat this for emphasis: YOU ARE ALLOWED TO SHIP WHATEVER YOU WANT PERIOD.

Your own enjoyment and entertainment are valid  reasons to write, draw, or consume something. 

If this enjoyment takes the form of sexual gratification, that’s also a valid reason to writer, draw, or consume something.

Fiction does not have to be morally pure. Fiction allows us to explore things that we wouldn’t want to experience in real life, things like violence, sexual violence, drug abuse, sexual taboos, or kinks: all kinds of weird or disturbingt things, and that’s okay.

No, the narrative does not have to condemn these things explicitly.

You don’t owe other fans an explanation or apology for the things you enjoy in fiction 

If someone asks you to reveal personal information, it’s okay to tell them to fuck off. 

There’s no such thing as a fandom police. Whoever claims to have the authority to tell you what is or isn’t acceptable for you to enjoy, is just arrogating that right. Their strategy only works if you let them have this power, so don’t. 

It’s up to each person individually to create a “safe space” for themselves.

Other people’s mental health is not your responsibilty.

Seriously, I know there are plenty of young people around who are smart, know how to listen and have their shit together more than even I do, old fuzzy blue alien that I am. 

However, you just encounter somebody who’s young, practically a kid, but also possessed of a “let the animals outta their cages kinda stupid.”  And so, even as I quietly facepalm and shake my head, let me offer this prayer.

May you learn to listen to those who are wiser than you.  May you learn to open your heart and your mind in empathy, compassion and understanding. May you grow in wisdom from your mistakes and your regrets. 

I also can’t help but think of how important it is for me to see/ know of women who are many years older than me and are still doing their thing. It helps beat back the idea that someday I’ll have to put away things like this and be “a real grown up”. (Anyone have any idea of content created only for women *of a certain age*? If such a thing exists it’s got tropes done right, women who get shit done, women who say fuck you to societal expectations, women who have strong friendships, women who have good sex- wait a minute…I tell you, it’s almost like women *of a certain age* are creating the content they want to see. And these poor young things are having it foisted upon them. Wont somebody think of the children!?)

Here’s hoping I’m reading saucy fanfic in my nursing home. And I figure after a few more decades of good sex my writing can only improve.

Because who ARE these kids who don’t think adults should be allowed to have any fun? Are we supposed to spend all our free time doing our taxes?

Do they think that once you hit some magic number (25? 30? who the fuck knows) that suddenly Life Is Not Allowed to be fun anymore?

Or do they just have a problem with us Dirty Old Women lusting after hot guys in movies and on TV?

…it’s super gross that a bunch of fandom elders (who are most likely at least in their thirties)…