Theofuknia

I when I first started my account and had like three followers made a post that I feel like Hades demonized and it was immediately re-blogged and it was like everything was wrong so I deleted my post and I felt embarrassed, so I’m just gonna post this one, but I’m not going to allow blogs because I don’t want my opinion about religion being disrespected again.

And by that I mean that I feel like everyone has the right to read this their own way, and look at all the contacts and all the angles and then their own opinions so to have it re-blogged and just like being very condescending I did not like that especially because it was bigger and I didn’t want the beginning of my Blog to be shat on.

Anyway, I found out that the Greek symbol for kidnapping was the exact same symbol as marriage

And it is explicitly said in the Hades and Persephone legend that Hades asked Zeus for permission to marry his daughter. He wanted advice from and how to get her to love him, and Zeus said just go ahead and marry her Zeus didn’t really discuss this with Demeter, so from her perspective, it sounded like Hades kidnapped her, but in reality, Hades just had an arranged marriage that he arranged with Zeus.

The Titan of the sun when he told Detemer what happened seemed pretty happy for Persephone because Hades was known for being a very nice being since he was the God of riches and everyone whoever lives will eventually become his servant Persephone literally could have a better husband

Now, when Romans invaded Greece and basically reshaped their entire religion into Roman mythology, they changed it to being that was kidnapped rather than married, and they took a step further by stating that Hades raped her

But this is strictly Roman mythology, and in the original Greek mythology, Hades did not refer, and in fact it was an arranged marriage.

And from the Roman perspective, yes it’s absolutely horrible.

From the Greek perspective, which as a person I think more about Greek mythology than Roman mythology it’s a pretty normal way to start a relationship in ancient times in most cultures in ancient times marriages were arranged Asia and Europe marriages were arranged in ancient times that’s the simple fact.

You take into consideration that had a normal marriage (in that time) and he will always help heroes who comes searching for his help, that when he heard about what Demeter was doing out of grief for not being able to see your daughter, Hades encouraged her to spend half the year with her mother, his existence mining his business taking care of his corner and his job being the underworld, loves his dog (the name of his dog literally translating to spot), and loves his wife, being one of the very few gods to never rape a mortal or other goddess, being the only God to never have an affair on his wife. Hades is a good guy.

I wouldn’t say the same thing about Pluto. But I do think Hades is good guy. There is only one myth or Hades does anything remotely violent, which is when the underworld is invaded and these demigod (I think I don’t remember their names) making an attempt to kidnap Persephone and rape her, because they want her as one of their wives. And Hades kills them. Which which I think is perfectly reasonable I mean it is something that any husband would do if someone only tried to make it pass their wife, but straight up kidnap her and assault her. He is fully in the right.

I think that Hades is demonized a lot in Hollywood now because people automatically associate the underworld with hell and that’s probably just a satisfy the majority Christian population we have in the world now.

The first time I said that Christianity demonizes 80s especially in Hollywood and all the things I try to say here I probably worded them worse at the time because I wasn’t writing as regularly yet. But the person that blocked me was completely condescending literally said “yeah of course, where do you think Cristians got the idea from?” Like I said the re-blog just came off very condescending.

Like I don’t know my research and shit

But do humble you random person that blocked my post and I deleted a few months ago, I will tell you I believe the idea of hell and Christianity came from.

It is not Greek mythology is not Roman mythology. I believe that it came from Norse mythology!

Because in Norse mythology, there is a goddess called Hel who lives in Helhime, referred to as hell for short. And it is believed that after Ragnarok. This legend of Apocalypse in North mythology. Everyone will be dead, except for one man one woman and one God, this literally literally sounds like the prequel of the Bible. And in this religion, there’s already the existence of hell and hell is specifically the underworld or the bad souls go.

That is, I think Christianity got the idea of hell

Because they certainly didn’t get it from the Torah, which is where they got most of their ideas from.

The myth you are referring to is when Theseus and his brother/ friend, Pirithous. Basically they both think they deserve to marry daughters of Zeus so they kidnap Helen of Sparta (who would become Helen of Troy) when she was 12 no less so Theseus could marry her. Pirithous wanted Persephone so they went to the underworld where Hades tricked them into sitting in magic chairs that trapped them there. Even then, Hades was kind as eventually Hercules was in the underworld to complete his final labour (to capture Cerberus which once again Hades just let him borrow it so long as he didn't use any weapons to subdue him and brought him back). When he was there, he found them both and Hades allowed him to free and take home Theseus on the condition that he had learnt his lesson. Pirithous had to stay though because he wanted to marry his wife.

In terms of the christianity bit, Norse mythology was an influence on it but the same could also be said the other way round. For example, one idea is that christianity is a large reason why Loki was considered an evil God. In the beginning of the mythology Loki was mischievous but a great guy. It wasn't till trickery was associated with the devil that he became evil. (Thats the theory anyway.) 'Helheim' and 'hell' are thought to be linked by some scholars but not all as they are very different dispite the name. Hell is obviously fiery, tortuous and is where 'bad people' go. Helheim however is cold, dark and where basically everyone goes. If you die in battle you reach Valhalla but if not regardless of if you are good or not you go to Helheim. As well as this, Hel isn't thought of as evil really either more somber. She isn't even a major role in Ragnarok though she is in it, her main job is to guide the army of the dead with Loki, she doesn't do much, though it is true everyone dies basically. Her depictions of being evil, similarly to Hades are due to the Christian and generally modern view of dead = bad and evil.

Greek and roman mythology does also influence christianity but not in terms of the underworld. One example is the Greek myth of Deucalion and Pyrrha which is basically Noah's ark.

@daughterofapollo-official I hope this won’t come off as mean and I certainly don’t want this reblog to be condescending, just informative.

Forewarned, this might get long and I risk being awfully pedantic here. So apologies.

While you did point out how Christianity shaped our modern view of the Underworld and what attributes we associate it with correctly, I would say your take on the Greeks’ Hades & Persephone myth vs. the Roman’s’ Hades & Persephone myth doesn’t quite account for the nuance and ambiguity of their relationship in both cultures’ sources actually.

You’re not the only one I’ve seen who said some of these things so what I’m gonna explain is not only towards you and your post.

You mentioned that Romans changed the myth and added the abduction but that’s simply not true. The abduction, as far as all literary and archaeological evidence we have can tell, was always there, since the earliest source that survived that tells the full myth (the Homeric Hymn to Demeter) very explicitly. You were right that Hades being given Zeus’s blessing is accordance to arranged marriage but the abduction is there to have multiple meanings that’s not just marriage and not literary reflective of marriage customs. In this myth, abduction is also death.

However, you said embellishing things I want to note regarding the Greek version of the myth (or at the very least I have never found any such details in any ancient source).

1. Hades explicitly asked Zeus for Persephone and advice on love: If we are looking at the Homeric hymn, it actually starts when Persephone is out in the fields and then the abduction happens. We technically never get the scene of Hades coming to Zeus to ask for Persephone, it’s only through details of Zeus conspiring to help Hades kidnap her and ignoring her pleas to help her that we infer there was likely an instance where Hades must’ve approached Zeus beforehand to make the request. The asking for love advice, on the other hand, is no such thing at all in any source. This is a modern thing people seem to do where they wanna insert our modern sensibilities to Hades’ actions and my issue is that it distorts his character in the original text. Hades never asked for love advice because it’s simply irrelevant to the process of taking his bride (as well as marriage sometimes in that time). He’s also not insecure or clueless about courting or inept at socializing as people on tumblr here like to portray him as. If he needs to appeal to Persephone, he doesn’t need Zeus to say what to do. He does it perfectly on his own. ( see #3)

2. Helios saying Hades is a nice guy and has all the souls as his servants: Helios does speak highly of Hades but he doesn’t emphasize how he’s a nice guy but rather his status is equal to Zeus and Demeter and that’s why he deserves Persephone. His rank is of most importance, not his personality. Though if you were saying nice as in appealing, then ignore this. I wouldn’t say all the souls are necessarily his servants. Majority of them just reside there. The only mortals who would become closest to servants in a way is perhaps Minos, Rhadamanthus, and Aecus.

3. Hades is a good guy/Pluto is not a good guy: Both Greek and Roman sources all say that the abduction was violent and unwilling on Persephone’s pov. Hades and Pluto are not different in this way. I will say that for instance, Claudian’s version of Pluto threatens Zeus instead of asking and it does go into more gruesome details of the abduction and even makes an analogy to a predator hunting his prey, yet in that same version, when Proserpina is distressed and cries over her fate, it explicitly says Pluto feels sympathy and love (we get no such clarification in the Homeric version) and wipes her tears and consoles her. In Lucian’s Dialogue, there’s an instance where a mortal wants to see his wife again and Pluto declines until Proserpina says otherwise. In comparison, Pluto seems to have more expressed gusto in the text vs Hades in archaic Greek literature. Homeric hymn Hades can be more ambiguous since the text never clearly says his feelings regarding Persephone or the month’s agreement, only implied through subtle descriptions of his actions. (Ex. The phrase “smiles with his brows” has been read as him being shifty or furtive by scholars). This leads to analysis of his character ranging from truly benign to deceiving and near malicious. Hades arguably can seem less erratic but more cold in his behavior. His consolation to Persephone is strictly verbal with no physical (romantic) touch and tries to appeal in the sense of honor and certain formalities to the marriage. It’s kinda funny to me when some people say Romans made Hades crueler when actually a lot of canonical romantic (in our standards) gestures from him are seen in the Roman text.

4. Hades always helps heroes as support for viewing him as a nice guy as his defining personality: He does help notable heroes but the point for a lot of those Katabasis stories is that those heroes are the exceptions that did the impossible. That’s what makes them and their stories so miraculous. Everyone else is still stuck in the Underworld and has to accept oblivion. Hades is said to help Heracles but also fought him (over Cerberus/Pylos). Hades, most importantly to Greeks, is the Lord of the dead, and they view death, especially in the early archaic, as a taboo and unsettling part of existence, so the god is likewise untouchable and antithetical to life and all the things living people cherish.

In conclusion: Hades can neither be described as good or bad because those terms are so polarizing with no room for ambiguity and reductive to begin with. Same thing with Pluto.

Picture this : there's Asclepius, who Apollo saw grow up into a man, who he raised (with Chiron) and taught him medicine. Then, he shows just as much, if not even more, enthusiasm as Apollo and distinguishes himself among the best of the best. He makes so many advancements in medicine that he's almost seen as its inventor, not striking jealousy but pride in his father. And then BAM, Apollo fails to save his son of his own father's wrath, his son who he promised to take care of, suddenly taken away from him.

Ofc he'd be absolutely pissed. He knows damn well he can't attack Zeus but he sure can express his anger and inconvenience him.

There's so many different emotions in this story and @margaretkart 's drawing wonderfully transmitted all the grief and anger Apollo felt.

Now, ofc the cyclopes are victims in this story as well. Like Asclepius, because of their craft, they too met a sudden demise from a god's wrath. In one version, Apollo only killed the lesser cyclopes, being the sons of the greater ones. The parental grief being transmitted by this crime.

That makes me feel so sad for them :’(

Whether it’s the Elder ones or their children (which doesn’t make it any better), they had no part in the conflict. The end for them is either the Elder ones, after aeons prisoned in Tartarus, now have to stay in a place of a similar environment. Or their children would and the Elders have no choice but to witness their children live an eternity in darkness and mourn them. Makes me wonder if they would forever hold a grudge against Apollo and Zeus for that.

my son, to sorrow I bare thee and carried thee within my womb, enduring the pangs of travail; but now Hades takes the fruit of all my hapless toil, and I that had a son am left, ah me (Euripides, Suppliant Women, 918 - ca. 423 BCE )

It’s really annoying now.

There are few excerpts where Hades even becomes synonymous with Thanatos like in the epigrams or in Euripides’ Alcestis where he’s winged and comes for Alcestis or how they’re versions where Hades or Thanatos is chained by Sisyphus.

There’s quite amount of instances where Hades’s name is almost used abstractly and mentioned over Thanatos’ name to evoke the presence of death or the feeling of dying/someone will die in poems/tragedies.

And yeah you have a point with Aphrodite and Eros.

Well, ok, considering most sources (that we have) don’t make Hades and Persephone have children. I can probably see some people think he’s asexual but still romantic. (Even then, there is Orphism that make him the father of the furies & NINE flower making daughters!)

At MOST, personally, I can see Hades being gray-sexual (only sporadic/rare sexual attraction) or has a natural low libido since compared to many male gods he has the least lovers and children put together, BUT that is the farthest I can go.

I don’t think Hades is the best example of an asexual god at all. Heck, he’s nowhere near being most asexual UNDERWORLD god!! There are a lot of better examples I can list off the top of my head:

-Thanatos (I see him shipped with Makaria and Zagreus a lot but there are NO sources, Greek or Roman, where he is actually given a consort/lover)

*I also see him shipped with mortals too but no ancient sources backs that either. Even in epigrams he’s not described as a groom to take the dying unmarried woman/man away. (But Hades, on the other hand, is!)

-Charon

-the Erinyes/furies (except maybe Tisiphone? I remember there was one weird myth about her cursing a guy who rejected her)

-Askalaphos

-Menoites

-Phlegethon

-Lethe

-Styx (with the exception of that one source that makes her the mother of Persephone)

-Most of Nyx’s children I believe honestly (exception being Hypnos, Eris, Nemesis, and one of the Hesperides)

-Hekate (for the most part she is a virgin goddess; there are instances of her paired with Hermes and had some offspring’s through obscure pairing)

So in conclusion: Hades want da püsy.

Well, ok, considering most sources (that we have) don’t make Hades and Persephone have children. I can probably see some people think he’s asexual but still romantic. (Even then, there is Orphism that make him the father of the furies & NINE flower making daughters!)

At MOST, personally, I can see Hades being gray-sexual (only sporadic/rare sexual attraction) or has a natural low libido since compared to many male gods he has the least lovers and children put together, BUT that is the farthest I can go.

I don’t think Hades is the best example of an asexual god at all. Heck, he’s nowhere near being most asexual UNDERWORLD god!! There are a lot of better examples I can list off the top of my head:

-Thanatos (I see him shipped with Makaria and Zagreus a lot but there are NO sources, Greek or Roman, where he is actually given a consort/lover)

*I also see him shipped with mortals too but no ancient sources backs that either. Even in epigrams he’s not described as a groom to take the dying unmarried woman/man away. (But Hades, on the other hand, is!)

-Charon

-the Erinyes/furies (except maybe Tisiphone? I remember there was one weird myth about her cursing a guy who rejected her)

-Askalaphos

-Menoites

-Phlegethon

-Lethe

-Styx (with the exception of that one source that makes her the mother of Persephone)

-Most of Nyx’s children I believe honestly (exception being Hypnos, Eris, Nemesis, and one of the Hesperides)

-Hekate (for the most part she is a virgin goddess; there are instances of her paired with Hermes and had some offspring’s through obscure pairing)

So in conclusion: Hades want da püsy.

Ah, yes! Because everybody knows that Zeus is thinking with the penis 100% of the time, being uncapable of understanding other people's needs and wishes or making a wise decision, and that Hades is a poor little meow meow who wouldn't want a fly to be killed, let aside someone who was literally violating one his most basic laws. Why is nobody talking about that one version where Hades pays a little visit to Asclepcius instead of Zeus, Asclepcius serves him with cookies and tea with extra sugar (not because he's a nice person but to raise his glycemia) and they two end up twirling their legs in the air while talking about how bringing people back to life is a big no-no, and Hades asks Asclepcius to no longer do such thing to which he instantly agrees because seeing his new friend sad makes him sad.

It's people stripping Hades of his agency in stories where he's not a nice uwu god. Like when they say that Zeus is totally responsible for Persephone's abduction. Ironically making him less interesting in the process.

And so Zeus is demonized... AGAAAAIN. Because of course, everything is Zeus' fault and, like you say, he thinks with his peepee. Did he completely disagree with what Asclepius did ? Yes, it's directly stated.

Did he strike his own grandson with thunder ? Also yes.

But did he do it for no reason other than "evil" and misinterpreted Hades' words like an idiot ? Hell no.

If we take Aesop's version, Hades hates doctors. So does Persephone btw 😂. I'll say it again, let them be haters together'!!

Edit : Aesop is Greek. Idiot me read latin names and thought he was latin.

Asclepius, while having good intentions, is still blatantly violating Hades' domain, the order of things and resurrected people without godly authorization. Multiple times. Kinda sounds like hubris, which is NOT taken lightly in mythology at all. Neither by Zeus, nor by Hades.

Even DIONYSUS, as an Olympian god, had to ask Hades for permission to get Semele and/or Ariadne.

Why would Asclepius, a demi-god among many others, be any exception? Especially not multiple times 😂

Fun fact : one source states he resurrected Capanaeus, who was punished by Zeus because of hubris. So Asclepius is even undoing godly punishment without permission. Another reason for Zeus and Hades to be pissed.

Is Hades not allowed to…just be mad?

I see so much tumblr fad of Hades being so shy and meek and borderline afraid to go against anyone, gods and mortals. And I see this often done when a god gets put on a pedestal and woobified to no end. (Same thing with Ares, Thanatos, and a lot of other male gods.)

I think I should remind you (hypothetical person, not the reblogged people, y’all are cool) that Hades, before he is an antihero, a romantic, an archetype, a “good husband who NevER ChEAted on his wIFE”, a “lame accountant who named his dog SpÖT”, the “nerd dORk of the brothers” with glasses (cuz immortals can be blind I guess??), “da CHILLY-est guy in Grek mytology”, or whatever the fuck the current census is now here….

IS.

A.

GOD.

G. O. D.

You know…. A deity, a religious figure, meaning he is and was worshipped, a deathless being who is above humans and animals, one who can command literal forces of nature!! In Hades’ case, he rules a WHOLE ASS other world!!

The ancient Greeks didn’t write that myth for shits and giggles or to make Zeus and Hades look bad, because they actually didn’t. They find a balance between the progression of medicine while acknowledging the gods they revered who may be affected by it.

Hades HAS to kill Asclepius because I GUARANTEE that if he just try to politely ask him to stop reviving people, he’s not gonna stop!

Gods have to be severe to make a point! So that mortals don’t get outta line. Hades will be wrathful. Gods are wrathful. Get over it!!!

Hades has sent plagues for smaller things than what Asclepius did actually. (Cursed Thebes when the king refused to give proper burial rites to the fallen warriors.)

It is honestly so insulting when people deny/erase any god’s anger over ANYTHING. As if their divineness being disrespected is not a justified reason.

Also, he outsmarted Zeus, Demeter AND Persephone too, since he gave her that pomegranate. Hades is a schemer and I love that 😂. (The one accurate aspect in Disney's Hercules).

The point about Hades and Zeus being forced to kill Asclepius is spot on because, guess what, as a god he still did not stop resurrecting people. Obviously, he's more sneaky about it, but there's that legit story of the beheaded woman that comes back to life thanks to him. And I headcannon that he was behind that snake helping Polyidos (shape shifted or sending a messenger). Listen, a random snake finding the exact herbs in a prison cell to resurrect the dead is impossibly convoluted, it has to be a decoy.

This is, again, a simple headcannon of mine. The beheaded woman tale is actually a thing, though 😂

Anyways, Asclepius is a man with a plan, a very stubborn guy -like his father-, who was not afraid of his work being frowned upon. Hades HAD to act in order to keep his domain respected. He HAD to punish him, so he sets a standard for every other mortal who would try to do the same thing, touch a godly domain they don't have any control over, resurrect impious mortals punished by the gods (like Capaneus) and just make a mess.

@aliciavance4228 and me completely agree with you that Hades inviting Asclepius for a tea party will not solve the problem. Except if he pulls the same strategy as Theseus and Pirithous so now he's imprisoned in the Underworld as well. Asking Zeus to kill him was easier, though.

Otherwise, people would just ask "why do people still die" and the story wouldn't make sense. Like you said, it's a warning so medicine doesn't go to the expense of respecting gods.

As much as I like Asclepius and emphasize with Apollo's grief, I'll always insist that Hades and Zeus had every right to punish him. These stories reminded people why no one should cross the gods.

@superkooku Thanks for mentioning Persephone too!

I left her out initially cuz many people can see that’s apparent but ignore the detail of Hades thwarting the other gods indirectly.

Also YES for schemer Hades! I want more portrayals of smart Hades that’s not the demeaning book nerd. I am 100% serious when I say I rather take a villainous Hades like Disney Hades that’s still treated to some extent as powerful and formidable approximate to his OG self over all of the whitewashed shit on here.

Ah, yes! Because everybody knows that Zeus is thinking with the penis 100% of the time, being uncapable of understanding other people's needs and wishes or making a wise decision, and that Hades is a poor little meow meow who wouldn't want a fly to be killed, let aside someone who was literally violating one his most basic laws. Why is nobody talking about that one version where Hades pays a little visit to Asclepcius instead of Zeus, Asclepcius serves him with cookies and tea with extra sugar (not because he's a nice person but to raise his glycemia) and they two end up twirling their legs in the air while talking about how bringing people back to life is a big no-no, and Hades asks Asclepcius to no longer do such thing to which he instantly agrees because seeing his new friend sad makes him sad.

It's people stripping Hades of his agency in stories where he's not a nice uwu god. Like when they say that Zeus is totally responsible for Persephone's abduction. Ironically making him less interesting in the process.

And so Zeus is demonized... AGAAAAIN. Because of course, everything is Zeus' fault and, like you say, he thinks with his peepee. Did he completely disagree with what Asclepius did ? Yes, it's directly stated.

Did he strike his own grandson with thunder ? Also yes.

But did he do it for no reason other than "evil" and misinterpreted Hades' words like an idiot ? Hell no.

If we take Aesop's version, Hades hates doctors. So does Persephone btw 😂. I'll say it again, let them be haters together'!!

Edit : Aesop is Greek. Idiot me read latin names and thought he was latin.

Asclepius, while having good intentions, is still blatantly violating Hades' domain, the order of things and resurrected people without godly authorization. Multiple times. Kinda sounds like hubris, which is NOT taken lightly in mythology at all. Neither by Zeus, nor by Hades.

Even DIONYSUS, as an Olympian god, had to ask Hades for permission to get Semele and/or Ariadne.

Why would Asclepius, a demi-god among many others, be any exception? Especially not multiple times 😂

Fun fact : one source states he resurrected Capanaeus, who was punished by Zeus because of hubris. So Asclepius is even undoing godly punishment without permission. Another reason for Zeus and Hades to be pissed.

Is Hades not allowed to…just be mad?

I see so much tumblr fad of Hades being so shy and meek and borderline afraid to go against anyone, gods and mortals. And I see this often done when a god gets put on a pedestal and woobified to no end. (Same thing with Ares, Thanatos, and a lot of other male gods.)

I think I should remind you (hypothetical person, not the reblogged people, y’all are cool) that Hades, before he is an antihero, a romantic, an archetype, a “good husband who NevER ChEAted on his wIFE”, a “lame accountant who named his dog SpÖT”, the “nerd dORk of the brothers” with glasses (cuz immortals can be blind I guess??), “da CHILLY-est guy in Grek mytology”, or whatever the fuck the current census is now here….

IS.

A.

GOD.

G. O. D.

You know…. A deity, a religious figure, meaning he is and was worshipped, a deathless being who is above humans and animals, one who can command literal forces of nature!! In Hades’ case, he rules a WHOLE ASS other world!!

The ancient Greeks didn’t write that myth for shits and giggles or to make Zeus and Hades look bad, because they actually didn’t. They find a balance between the progression of medicine while acknowledging the gods they revered who may be affected by it.

Hades HAS to kill Asclepius because I GUARANTEE that if he just try to politely ask him to stop reviving people, he’s not gonna stop!

Gods have to be severe to make a point! So that mortals don’t get outta line. Hades will be wrathful. Gods are wrathful. Get over it!!!

Hades has sent plagues for smaller things than what Asclepius did actually. (Cursed Thebes when the king refused to give proper burial rites to the fallen warriors.)

It is honestly so insulting when people deny/erase any god’s anger over ANYTHING. As if their divineness being disrespected is not a justified reason.

I want to express my criticism of some scholars’ analysis regarding the Hymn to Demeter. I’ve read different thesis that state that “By giving his daughter Persephone to Hades, Zeus intends to create a bridge and alliance between the upper and the hitherto inaccessible lower world” (Strauss Clay, The Politics of Olympus, 213).

I think there is a mistake in giving so much credit to Zeus, and futhermore, I think the Hymn we have -as other scholars also state- is combining separate stories in attempt to make an “olympization” of the Persephone-Demeter story by trying to introduce Zeus as the King of gods, the god at the top of the hierarchy. When we read the Hymn, despite it says things happen “for the will/plan of Zeus” we can clearly see that Zeus is not an authoritarian figure, his plans get frustrated, Demeter shows to be more powerful than he is, and so on. But the most important, if we claim that it is Zeus’ plan to make a connection between the upper world and the underworld, this plain ONLY succeeds because of Persephone and Hades actions, never his.

Let’s take again, the statement of “Zeus is trying to effect a more permanent connection between the various spatial regions that make up the universe” (Douglas Al-Maini, The Political Cosmology of the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, 98). This bridge and communication between worlds continues to be unexistent after Hades abducts Persephone until the very end of the Hymn (line 445) Demeter wanders through the world unable to reach her daughter, this means: Hades remains an inaccessible realm. This reality of isolation is such, that at line 335, “Zeus sends Hermes, the only god with the ability to traverse the barrier between the upper and lower worlds, to the Lord of the Dead” (Strauss Clay, 249). 

Can you follow my idea until this moment? What I’m trying to say, is that we’ve been giving too much credit to Zeus and making Persephone a pasive character, when actually she and Hades are the ones who create the bridge between the worlds! Why? Because when Hades gives his speech (emphasis on lines 363-366) he is stating that Persephone’s honors entail her role as mediator between the worlds, and Persephone accepts such role by eating the pomegranate seeds.

Lines 363 to 366: I shall be no unfitting husband for you among immortals, since I am brother to father Zeus. And while you are there*, you shall rule all that lives and moves and shall have the highest honor among the deathless gods”.

*Some translations make the lines as “while you are here”, but according to Richardson (1974) the word is “thither” (ἔνθα - entha) meaning that “Persephone will remain Hades’ wife amongst the gods, and she will rule in the upper world over all that lives and moves and will hold her honours ‘amongst the gods”.

It’s Hades action of giving the pomegranate to Persephone -and her acceptance of it- the one that guarantees that Persephone will be able to move between the spheres of the world and fulfill her mediator role. Zeus has no part on this. 

Lines 372-374: (Hades) gave her a pomegranate seed to eat, honey-sweet, by stealth, taking care himself that she might not remain always again with revered dark-robed Demeter.  

Persephone accepts the pomegranate, let’s remember that twice she is called “wise” by epithets that refer to her intelligence:

Line 359: And he (Hades) straightway urged wise* Persephone, saying: 

“wise” = δαΐφρονι, daïphroni an epithet used in Homeric narrative to refer to male figures (in the Hymn in line 96 and 233 to refer to Celeus).

Line 370: When he said this, strong-minded* Persephone was filled with joy 

Strong-minded = περίφρων, periphrôn also wise.

Hades and Persephone are aware of the consequence of the pomegranate (the division of the time Persephone will have to spend on each world) and Demeter and Zeus have to agree to this (line 445 and line 463). As Strauss Clay says “It is evident that Demeter immediately knows the consequences of her daughter’s eating in Hades. As soon as she recognizes them, the goddess offers no further resistance”. After this Strauss Clay asks could it be that Demeter acquiesces to the arrandement because she comprehends and accepts its full significance? and the answer is yes. Demeter and Zeus accept this new configuration of the world where Hades and Olympus are communicated and no longer isolated. (Demeter) clearly does accept the consequences of the swallowing of the pomegranate seed and the irreversibility both of Persephone’s bond with Hades and of a cyclic life/death, fertility/infertility pattern with results from that bond (Rubin and Deal, 1980, Some functions of the Demophon Episode in the Homeric Hymn to Demeter,18).

Although it is not the purpose here to discuss the idea of Persephone’s unwillingless, I will repeat that Persephone eating unwillingly is not a possibility since it would mean that the epithets to refer to Persephone’s intelligence are a mere ornament in the Hymn and that idea is really absurd. Most of scholars agree that Persephone lies with her verbose answer since according to the narrator Hades never used force. Also, the idea of forced eating = “sexual rape” is not a possibility either. The few people who try to defend this idea mostly do it because to them the Hymn is a reflection of women’s initation by rape (like Bruce Lincoln) making connection as “Persephone the flower girl” gets “deflorated”, and others arguments that are not accurate. As I’ve stated before, the Hymn does not use a rape-narrative. In line 413 when Persephone says Hades unwillingly forced her to eat she uses the word “βίῃ” that is not the word used for rape-narrative in the rest of the literature, and in the Hymn that is the word Demeter uses to tell how (she) Doso was abducted by pirates in line 124. The Hymn clearly show us that both mother and daughter are good at making up stories. 

I started to think more about this.

Apart from @coloricioso already explaining extensively the denial of Persephone’s agency in the myth through the perspective of Zeus orchestrating the resolution (and the fact that we never get a scene that reveals what the REAL reason why Zeus offers Hades Persephone other than presumably Hades wants her as his wife), this is actually the ONE myth where, interestingly enough, Hades is undermining Zeus’s authority.

Contrary to popular belief, Hades is the more loyal brother and usually doesn’t get in the way of Zeus’s rule, but HERE he technically follows his orders but finds a loop hole to invite a factor that yet again thwarts Zeus to follow through his plans to do damage control in appeasing Demeter in order to get what he wants, via feeding Persephone the seeds.

The HHTD is so interesting to read for one of the reasons is that Hades gets more character development than one might think if you actually squint and read between the lines.

He’s initially a clear subordinate to Zeus at the beginning of the myth: Zeus has to give permission to the marriage & does many things for Hades in order to make the abduction happen (I.e. tells Gaia to create the narcissus to lure Persephone), but later towards the end, this dynamic shifts. The moment Zeus is not on his side anymore, the moment Hades can’t rely on his fraternal ally, the Patriarch of the pantheon, to get what he wants, he immediately starts scheming. While Demeter directly defies Zeus in a way that’s apparent to the reader, Hades also indirectly defies Zeus that’s a little less apparent to the reader.

Scholars who say Zeus is responsible for planning everything that happened are never quite convincing to me. I can only see he aids the abduction and pitifully tries to back track the matrimony between Hades and Persephone. Every other thing he did is just making other gods try to convince Demeter to stop the famine and failing. He is ONLY trying to bring back the status quo more than anything, NOT reinventing it. The scholars would be on to something if maybe when Zeus orders Hermes to go to Hades, he may have had Hermes relay the plan of the pomegranate seeds to Hades and then from Hermes’ word of mouth, Hades is following orders. BUT there is NO such indication of that when we read the exact text. Hades just “smiles with his brows” in response and there’s no sign of mutual understanding between Hermes and Hades, like a signal or a wink at each other, of a possible plan of deception. Zeus did not seem to predict Hades pulling the pomegranate loop hole because his direct orders is just to bring Persephone back. There’s also the other detail of possible translations that indicate he’s acting inconspicuously when he’s speaking to Persephone, possibly so that Hermes doesn’t see what’s going on. So if he’s hiding his course of actions from Hermes then that seems to support my and @coloricioso’s case that Zeus could not have planned Hades giving Persephone the seeds and did not communicate such a plan to Hades. Hades orchestrated that specific plan on his own. It’s only up to Persephone to seal the deal.

The fact that Hades, at this point, no longer seeks his fellow male god, Zeus’s approval through attempting compensation as the patriarchial custom pertains, but instead, takes measures to attempt compensation only to his wife. He monologues a very thorough speech that details all the things Persephone will gain right before he offers the fruit, essentially a terms and agreement contract that redirects the current situation to one that would feel mutually beneficial for both himself and his new wife. *Looking at his plan of actions, this befits how Plato’s Cratylus describe Hades as a wise god with a silver tongue that can say persuasive words who consorted with Persephone because she is equally wise.

I think it’s relevant to note how, of all the gods who appeared in the myth, it’s these three gods: Demeter-Hades-Persephone, who are in the forefront to bridge the Chthonic world and Olympus. @coloricioso had other posts that mention this hymn’s one of many purposes is telling the origins of the Eleusinian Mysteries. Demeter, Persephone and Hades were the three gods who were worshipped and respected in that cult. *there are Ploutoniums fixed in some of the remains of the temples of Demeter and Persephone.

I would think Zeus mainly appears throughout the myth to affirm the legal validation of this new order, as King of gods who oversees the conduct of everyone else, but not to prove that he is the ‘mastermind’ behind this new arrangement.

Heck, he wasn’t even the one who voiced the terms of Persephone returning and leaving the Underworld every so months - it was Demeter.

I believe the underlying meaning of this hymn is focused on revealing the power of the triad gods (Demeter/Persephone/Hades) of the Eleusinian Mysteries that created the rites the Greeks know to partake in; the same way that the other hymns of individual gods narrate the origins of many of their rites and traditions.

Anyways, just originally wanted to say this hymn shows Hades can be a low key calculating god who can act outside of Zeus’s supremacy instead of always a dutiful god as others here have usually iterated.

Instead I ended up writing an essay no one asked for…

I want to express my criticism of some scholars’ analysis regarding the Hymn to Demeter. I’ve read different thesis that state that “By giving his daughter Persephone to Hades, Zeus intends to create a bridge and alliance between the upper and the hitherto inaccessible lower world” (Strauss Clay, The Politics of Olympus, 213).

I think there is a mistake in giving so much credit to Zeus, and futhermore, I think the Hymn we have -as other scholars also state- is combining separate stories in attempt to make an “olympization” of the Persephone-Demeter story by trying to introduce Zeus as the King of gods, the god at the top of the hierarchy. When we read the Hymn, despite it says things happen “for the will/plan of Zeus” we can clearly see that Zeus is not an authoritarian figure, his plans get frustrated, Demeter shows to be more powerful than he is, and so on. But the most important, if we claim that it is Zeus’ plan to make a connection between the upper world and the underworld, this plain ONLY succeeds because of Persephone and Hades actions, never his.

Let’s take again, the statement of “Zeus is trying to effect a more permanent connection between the various spatial regions that make up the universe” (Douglas Al-Maini, The Political Cosmology of the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, 98). This bridge and communication between worlds continues to be unexistent after Hades abducts Persephone until the very end of the Hymn (line 445) Demeter wanders through the world unable to reach her daughter, this means: Hades remains an inaccessible realm. This reality of isolation is such, that at line 335, “Zeus sends Hermes, the only god with the ability to traverse the barrier between the upper and lower worlds, to the Lord of the Dead” (Strauss Clay, 249). 

Can you follow my idea until this moment? What I’m trying to say, is that we’ve been giving too much credit to Zeus and making Persephone a pasive character, when actually she and Hades are the ones who create the bridge between the worlds! Why? Because when Hades gives his speech (emphasis on lines 363-366) he is stating that Persephone’s honors entail her role as mediator between the worlds, and Persephone accepts such role by eating the pomegranate seeds.

Lines 363 to 366: I shall be no unfitting husband for you among immortals, since I am brother to father Zeus. And while you are there*, you shall rule all that lives and moves and shall have the highest honor among the deathless gods”.

*Some translations make the lines as “while you are here”, but according to Richardson (1974) the word is “thither” (ἔνθα - entha) meaning that “Persephone will remain Hades’ wife amongst the gods, and she will rule in the upper world over all that lives and moves and will hold her honours ‘amongst the gods”.

It’s Hades action of giving the pomegranate to Persephone -and her acceptance of it- the one that guarantees that Persephone will be able to move between the spheres of the world and fulfill her mediator role. Zeus has no part on this. 

Lines 372-374: (Hades) gave her a pomegranate seed to eat, honey-sweet, by stealth, taking care himself that she might not remain always again with revered dark-robed Demeter.  

Persephone accepts the pomegranate, let’s remember that twice she is called “wise” by epithets that refer to her intelligence:

Line 359: And he (Hades) straightway urged wise* Persephone, saying: 

“wise” = δαΐφρονι, daïphroni an epithet used in Homeric narrative to refer to male figures (in the Hymn in line 96 and 233 to refer to Celeus).

Line 370: When he said this, strong-minded* Persephone was filled with joy 

Strong-minded = περίφρων, periphrôn also wise.

Hades and Persephone are aware of the consequence of the pomegranate (the division of the time Persephone will have to spend on each world) and Demeter and Zeus have to agree to this (line 445 and line 463). As Strauss Clay says “It is evident that Demeter immediately knows the consequences of her daughter’s eating in Hades. As soon as she recognizes them, the goddess offers no further resistance”. After this Strauss Clay asks could it be that Demeter acquiesces to the arrandement because she comprehends and accepts its full significance? and the answer is yes. Demeter and Zeus accept this new configuration of the world where Hades and Olympus are communicated and no longer isolated. (Demeter) clearly does accept the consequences of the swallowing of the pomegranate seed and the irreversibility both of Persephone’s bond with Hades and of a cyclic life/death, fertility/infertility pattern with results from that bond (Rubin and Deal, 1980, Some functions of the Demophon Episode in the Homeric Hymn to Demeter,18).

Although it is not the purpose here to discuss the idea of Persephone’s unwillingless, I will repeat that Persephone eating unwillingly is not a possibility since it would mean that the epithets to refer to Persephone’s intelligence are a mere ornament in the Hymn and that idea is really absurd. Most of scholars agree that Persephone lies with her verbose answer since according to the narrator Hades never used force. Also, the idea of forced eating = “sexual rape” is not a possibility either. The few people who try to defend this idea mostly do it because to them the Hymn is a reflection of women’s initation by rape (like Bruce Lincoln) making connection as “Persephone the flower girl” gets “deflorated”, and others arguments that are not accurate. As I’ve stated before, the Hymn does not use a rape-narrative. In line 413 when Persephone says Hades unwillingly forced her to eat she uses the word “βίῃ” that is not the word used for rape-narrative in the rest of the literature, and in the Hymn that is the word Demeter uses to tell how (she) Doso was abducted by pirates in line 124. The Hymn clearly show us that both mother and daughter are good at making up stories. 

I don’t like these portrayals of Thanatos of him as this uber pretty boy/eboy (lookin at you Hades game) or some figure that cares about appealing to mortals and their sentimentalities at their death. Thanatos is Death in its pure form. Neutral. I feel like these versions of him as super nice are taking the “gentle” death too literally. To Ancient Greeks, Thanatos is ultimately unpleasant, because Death as they know it is unpleasant. Euripides’ Alcestis have Thanatos contrast Apollo by him being a haggard figure with dark robes. The earliest art we have of Thanatos is him being a bearded mature looking man. The ephebic boy version of him only showed up in later or Roman art. The Orphic Hymn calls his influence (as death) as his “all-destructive rage”. He is described similarly to Hades to be unsympathetic to mortals: “hated most by mortals”.

This woobie/innocent meow meow romanticizing reminds me of how Hades is made overly soft to the point where nothing about his character is remotely recognizable of how the Ancient Greeks saw him.

Personally, it’s just really annoying cause to me this kind of extreme, along with the other side of villaination of death gods, makes both of them so less interesting than they can potentially be.

She is usually described as being "half dark" and "half light", as presented in the Orphic Hymn dedicated to her:

Orphic Hymn 71 to Melinoe (trans. Taylor) (Greek hymns C3rd B.C. to 2nd A.D.) :

"To Melinoe, Fumigation from Aromatics. I call, Melinoe, saffron-veiled, terrene, who from Phersephone dread venerable queen, mixt with Zeus Kronion (Cronion), arose, near where Kokytos' (Cocytus') mournful river flows; when, under Plouton's (Pluton's) [Haides'] semblance, Zeus divine deceived with guileful arts dark Phersephone (Persephone). Hence, partly black thy limbs and partly white, from Plouton dark, from Zeus ethereal bright. Thy coloured members, men by night inspire when seen in spectred forms, with terrors dire; now darkly visible, involved in night, perspicuous now they meet the fearful sight."

Still not convinced? Here's an adaptation of the Hymn to Melinoe, from the Sibylline Order:

I call saffron-veiled Melinoe, Daughter of Persephone and the Mystic Hades, Where flows the mournful river Cocytus, he beguiled the daughter of the Earth, So Thy limbs are partly black and partly white, Night's Daughter and Daughter of the light, Thy specter, now veiled in shadow, Now shimmering silver, inspires mortal fear. Terrestrial Queen, expel from our hearts, the soul's mad fears wherever found, And with holy aspect bless this incense, and Thy mystics, and this divine rite.

So before coming with the "Actually, that description is only metaphorical." argument take a look at these translations and see how even in the versions where she's conveniently considered the daughter of Hades she's still described as having black and white limbs.

And yet, this is how she's portrayed in the Hades Supergiant Video Game:

"Oh, look! This conventionally attractive woman has heterochromia and a skeleton arm covered in green gelatin? Oh mah gash, she's soooo scary!"

Okay, but maybe her fanarts are doing her more justi- Nevermind.

I mean, the second one kinda... tried?

Honestly it would be way more interesting if people won't hesitate to make her look similarly with Hel. Imagine her having dead and wizened, mumified-like skin on one side of her body. It would give her a frightening, ghostly, almost demonic appearance that will make her look like the goddess of ghosts.

Finally found a somehow decent one:

I also want to shout out the Erinyes too.

Most archaic writers describe them as horrid to look upon by mortals and gods and even described as “many-formed”, “eyes drip of blood” and “snake haired” yet all of their popular depictions both in media and fandom are so generic!! (And also often make them bdsm fem dom aesthetic, which….ok…..)

Hades is canonically a girl dad

The only clear textual evidence of him having children are daughters (Erinyes/Eumenides, Makaria). Unless you wanna count that ambivalent phrase from Aeschylus’s Sisyphus about Zagreus: “Now I bid farewell to Zagreus and his sire, the Hospitaler.” Hospitaler is usually a eumphemistic name for Hades but the majority of literary evidence we have points to tradition of Zeus as Zagreus’s father.

Y’all are missing this opportunity to make Hades a certified Girl Dad.

Is there something I’m missing between Persephone and Hades? I see a lot of posts and stuff saying they’re a much better couple than a lot of the other ones (and I mean in fairness that is a pretty low bar tbh all the Greek Gods are drama queens) but didn’t Hades hold Persephone in the underworld against her will? Like, didn’t she hate spending time in the underworld, and was overall unhappy being with him?

Technically there is no ACTUAL trace of Persephone’s name in any Linear A or B as of now. (Despite people on here saying she was a Mycenaean goddess as absolute fact)

I think a lot of the surge of Sephiroth bishon Hadeses are from the wave of the modern romanticized myth and a lot of them don’t want to focus on the age gap of Hades-Persephone.

In my opinion that fact is just inevitable. Also I want more handsome BEARDED Hades. Stop making him clean shaven!! Zeus and Poseidon are always given a beard, why not the eldest brother?

Funny fact: As far as I know, out of all the three brothers, the only one that has actual evidence of being depicted an advanced age older than middle age in iconography is Hades.

So if anything…