How Does One Even Language?

SO

yall remember that post that went like…… “why is french… Like That”?

well, time for An Education from ur local french literature student

SO, BASICALLY, WHAT HAPPENED

first of all, well, it’s like the 9th century and the king is like…… hey what if….. and bear with me on this one but….. what if…….. we wrote………. the things about our country………… in the language……. actual people living in this country….. speak?

and people were like “holy shit youre the king so okay” and then the king was like “i want YOU to write this laws and THINGS in FRENCH!” and the monks were like “aw okay” so they started doing that

EXCEPT

that they had a big fucking problem. what was that problem, you may ask? well, the problem was thaT THOSE MOTHERFUCKERS DIDNT HAVE AN ALPHABET TO WRITE THIS FUCKING EXCUSE OF A LANGUAGE

lemme explain. all they knew was latin and the latin alphabet. bc like knowing latin was the whole thing when u were a monk. also latin was like… the Serious Language. but french doesnt sound like latin like at all. french sounded like some bitch ass demon had bitten their tongue and was trying to order a latte in the middle of an exorcism incantation. and i say “sounded” on purpose bc their pronunciation was wild, man. like ultra wild. like even WORSE than what we have to deal with now. and it had NOTHING to do with motherfucking latin.

so what did the monks do? well, they were like “aw this is a mcfucking embarrassment of a situation, ay” and had a choice. basically, they could invent a whole new mode of transcription for french weird ass sounds… OR they could do their best to try and adapt the latin alphabet to its demonic sprouting.

which is, pretty sadly if you ask me, what they went for.

so they started planning strategies that were complex at shit bc like how tf are you gonna write “cheval” with a fucking LATIN ALPHABET??? so basically they all went with whatever felt best to write in the moment and there were no rules and it was a weird fucking mess of a situation lemme tell you, ive seen the manuscripts, those men went APE SHITT

and like…. some of them never used the same spelling twice. also there were like no accent and punctuation and things that allow you to write like a fucking normal human being so jot that down

so, that was a big fucking mess and they started adding letters e v e r y w h e r e like……….. ok some of them were actually smart like they did their best to add letters that no one pronounced but it made it look like some latin thing. like basically they put up a pink hairband on a fucking DEMON CHILD and went “aaaawww look how CUTE it is, looks like its mommy so much!!!!” and prayed to god it would end up well (spoiler: no. no it didnt. bitch)

so you got things like “veult” for “veut” bc the “l” made it look a bit like the latin “vult” or something. but then as i said some of them went APE SHITT and were like, WOOHOO FREE LETTERS and started adding weird letters to words that had literally no etymological link to that letter. so they were writing “peut” like “peult” just because….. idk they felt like to??

so its Like That in the middle ages and then people started thinking about french as a language and they went like….. MAAAAW THERES A WEIRD FUCKING STRAY WRITING OUTSIDE!!! MAAAAAAAW!!!! IS THAT EVEN A FUCKING LANGUAGE???? BLINK MOTHERFUCKER!! AAAAAAAAAAAA and everyone was losing their shit alright

so like english students started going to college in france and they were like “bitch you live like this??” and the french were like :/// whelp

and like they did their best to like help non-native writing french but it had no rules so it didnt work out well and like….. in the 1500’s some guys were like “okay guys this makes no sense from now on well use a RATIONALIZED WRITING i built MYSELF” and their idea was basically to write french as they spoke it which i know SOUNDS like a good idea but actually AINT

bc first of all there are a shitton of words that have the same pronunciation in french and you need those weird spellings to actually know what the word is there for like….. they wrote like “me” for “mai” and “mais” and “mes” and “met” and basically that was wild

and some of those guys who knew a lot about grammar went like “ooookayyyyy so were removing those letters we dont pronounce buuuuuuuuuut its not alwayyyyyys like thiiiiiiiiis” and like…. right-wing people like the 1550 equivalent of republicans or some shit went like, foaming at the mouth like rabid fucking dogs when they saw “pe” instead of “peult” “oooooohhhhhh but you DIDNT and its not EVEN REALLY RATIONAL” and like they had a ton or arguments and it actually became a kinda linguistic war and all

plus they didnt pronounce the same things everywhere in france so in paris they wrote “otr” for “autre” and in lyon they wrote “aotr” and they were like……… “we got a problem here” bc the whole thing was to get a language that was the same everywhere in the country basically

so u got those reformist guys on the one side and the reactionaries on the other side and honestly, reactionaries’ arguments are so fucking funny they were like…

“okay so some of the letters are useful bc it helps understanding that the word comes from latin” this ones rational alright

“also some mute letters are used to link the words from an identical background together and create semantic links like “sang” (blood) does have a mute “g” bc it links it to “sanguin” (sanguine) and other words like this” alright cool

but THEN you got some weird fucking ideas like

“but actually writing IS the standard bc written things Are More Noble, Actually” which is like……. weird flex but ok

“yes, it makes it harder to learn, but so it repels women and non-educated people who would soil The Language if they could write it” like DUDE are you FUCKING SERIOUS

and finally – their main idea –

“bUt iT loOkS FaNcY” aka #aesthetics and thats basically it

also. the printing press workers were like……… guys are you SURE you want to get us to COMPLETELY CHANGE AND UNLEARN OUR WHOLE JOB LIKE C’MON so it kinda weighed in favor of the reactionaries

also the reactionaries won in the long term

tl;dr so french is Like That because 1. its a demonic language that monks desperately tried to tie back to latin and 2. old white men with bizarre aesthetic tastes hated women and The Poor

Essentials of Linguistics is an entirely free online open access textbook with accompanying videos for introductory linguistics classes by Dr Catherine Anderson at McMaster University. 

This is the first edition and it has a pretty basic set of chapters which are geared primarily towards the Canadian learner. It also looks useful for people trying to self-teach linguistics because it’s freely available online and all the chapters are designed to work together, which is so often an issue when trying to cobble together various online resources. 

The cashier (and everyone within earshot) just looked at her like “the fuck is wrong with you”

In Australia, Sprite IS lemonade as far as we’re concerned.

Earth is the third planet from the Sun, the densest planet in the Solar System, the largest of the Solar System’s four terrestrial planets, and the only astronomical object known to harbor Sprite.

The other one that’s less funny and more literal is salir del fuego para caer en las brasas which is “to leave the fire (only) to fall on the coals”

I recently went on a trip for 3 days to one of my favourite cities in the whole of my country, but I realised I didn’t have the appropriate Mandarin vocab to allow me to talk about the journey - so here we go!

I’m a big fan of coffee and cocktails myself, so I thought it’d be cool to make a vocab list where I can talk about drinks - necessary but a type of vocab list I always somehow overlook! Hope this helps someone else!

Imagine that you were told that there were two options to treat a group of 600 individuals with a horrible disease. If you chose the first option, you would save 200 lives. If you chose the second option, you would have a 33% chance of saving everyone, but a 66% chance of saving no-one.

If you’re like most people, you would choose the first option to save a guaranteed 200 lives. It sounds better, doesn’t it?

Now imagine that you were given another group of 600 people. For this group, if you choose the first treatment, 400 people will die. If you choose the second treatment, you have a 33% chance that no one will die and a 66% chance that all 600 will die.

Most people tend to go with the second option. 

Mathematically, the two conditions have the exact same choices. 1/3 will live, or a 1/3 chance all will live. There is no difference, yet the language generally causes a vast difference in decision making by participants (if it didn’t work with you, well, you’ve been cognitively primed to look at the options differently than you would if you had been presented only the question due to your exposure to both questions, AKA the context made you consider the details differently than normal conditions). 

Yet, despite the options being the same, in a positive-framing condition, 72% of participants chose option A (save 200 lives), in a negative-framing condition, 78% of participants chose option B (33% chance no one will die).

@dovalayn I did. I’ve studied English for about 10 years and I have the official diploma for the C2 level (the maximum for a non-native speaker) given by the University of Cambridge.

But it’s still my 3rd language and there will be always things that escape me, mainly the slang. Always. Because you know you are always less than the majority. And it’s tiring.

That’s all I’m saying. It would be nice for once to not have to make the effort. And effort is something that no matter how many years of English class I take will always be there.

But not everyone can do that. Some people can’t afford private English academies or are bad at languages, and they should still be able to exist online as well. Why are you so bothered by people not speaking English perfectly? Or by people posting on the internet in other languages??

Native English speakers are used to having the world, and by extension all non native speakers, accommodate to their language. If someone doesn’t know English then said person is uneducated, isn’t wordly, is not qualified enough. If a person doesn’t pronounce English like a native, they’re pronouncing it wrong. Tourists are expected to speak perfect English and be proficient in it to avoid any inconvenience to native English speakers when travelling abroad to English speaking countries (USA and UK particularly, yet interestingly enough we are demanded to speak in English when these people visit our countries). These are all mindsets and situations that exist and are part of the broader context, in which English does operate on linguistic imperialism grounds on a global scale; I’m going to quote Phillipson really quickly:

Linguicism: the ideologies and structures which are used to legitimate, effectuate and reproduce an unequal division of power and resources (both material and non-material) between groups which are defined on the basis of their language (i.e., of their mother tongue). This condition is best seen within the broader context of linguistic imperialism - an essential constituent of imperialism as a global phenomenon involving structural relations between rich and poor countries in a world characterized by inequality and injustice.

Language expansion is considered an essential part of a core country’s policy of extending its power and influence in order to achieve its imperialistic strategies. Phillipson holds that the legitimization of English linguistic expansion has been based on two notions: ethnocentricity and educational policy, with ‘ethnocentricity’ being the “practice of judging other cultures by standards of it own.” These two practices have been used to impose a distinction between languages. It has also been a way to promote the notion of the assumed inferiority of secondary languages with respect to the norms determined by the dominant culture.

Phillipson takes this notion one step further with ethnocentricity transformed into that of ‘anglocentricity’ with the consequence that the dominance of English is justified in terms of such oppositions as superiority/inferiority, civilization/backwardness, progress/regress, the first element of which is constantly attributed to the dominant English language.

According to Phillipson education serves the imperial center by having three functions: ideological, economic and repressive. The ideological function serves as a channel for transmitting social and cultural values. In this role English is regarded as a “gateway for better communication, better education and higher standards of living.” The second function – economic – legitimizes English as a means of qualifying people to contribute to their nation and operate technology that the language provides access to. The third function – repression – serves to dominate languages.

Linguistic imperialism calls attention to the potential consequences of English teaching worldwide when center country ideologies are embedded in instruction, having the effect of legitimizing colonial or establishment power and resources, and of “reconstituting cultural inequalities between English and other languages.”

[Cited and paraphrased from

-Phillipson, R. 1992. Linguistic Imperialism. Oxford. Oxford University Press. -Phillipson, R. 1988. Linguicism: structures and ideologies in linguistic imperialism. In J. Cummins and T. Skutnabb-Kangas (eds.), Minority Education: From Shame to Struggle. Avon: Multilingual Matters.]

It’s… interesting, for the lack of a better word, how non native English speakers must even accommodate to native English speakers, when in actuality non native English speakers far surpass natives by several millions and, if anything, it should be them who ought to change, not us.

English becomes our second/third/etc language, we use it with several degrees of proficiency, being affected all the time by our L1, or all the other languages that we might know, we are constantly building on our current interlanguage and gaining a better grasp on how to operate with English. When we talk or chat with other NNE speakers with whom we don’t share a language, we make ourselves understood, we manage to sort any misgiving in communication, if we make a mistake we re-phrase, re-arrange, express things in another way. We are communicating, we still get our messages across despite some slips of the tongue, little mistakes or even a few errors here and there.

We are able to engage, through the use of English, in cross-cultural exchanges, in cross-linguistic exchanges that are allowed by using English as a lingua franca. We are making the language ours, we’re reclaiming the language that for so long was used to shush us down and we’re using it as an asset, we’re using it as a weapon, we’re using it so our voices cannot be silenced any more.

Our messages do get across, they can be understood. When native English speakers claim our Englishes aren’t clear, or we aren’t making any sense, they are really not making the extra effort. In short, many are uncapable of cross-linguistic and cross-cultural exchanges and communication. It’s easier to say we don’t make sense, and by extension snuffing us out, than paying attention to what we are saying.

And we don’t only have to defend our languages and our cultures in a globalised world (in which the normalised culture is that of the center), but we also have to use English as a tool for doing it.

I mean, having been part of vibrant internet communities with people from over a dozen countries (the majority from US, Australia, UK, Ireland, New Zeeland and Canada, I’ll grant, but still, plenty from others), I certain appreciate the internationality of the internet and as an English speaker, I like how I can speak to so many people from so many places without needing to learn a new language, and I’m not saying people should stick to their fellow… same language speakers always, but… I’m not entirely sure what the point of the post is? You guys chose to come here, to a website managed by an American company and with lots and lots of English speakers… but aren’t you quite likely to run into someone else who is also a nonnative speaker of English (but not a speaker your mother tongue either) and you’re using English as your Lingua Franca, as it is in so many places on the Internet.

Using English would be part of the price of doing business in an English language space, just like I’d have to learn say, Japanese if I wanted to go into a Japanese language space online, or if I was in Japan and wanted to get away from the tourist-manager people who speak English as part of their job to get English-speaking tourists to part with their money (and for the record, when I was in Italy for a few weeks years ago, I made an effort to speak Italian with what little command of the language I had, though it wasn’t much and I didn’t go far beyond the core touristy areas anyway).

No worries ;) 

The thing is: Yes, there are. And all fandom members from non-English-speaking countries who don’t speak English or don’t speak it well enough to read/write/generally consume fandom content in English do use these spaces. And people who are good enough at English sometimes use both. Especially languages with lots of speakers will have ETA: huge fairly big fandom communities in their own language. But people who speak English as a second/third etc. language and whose native language doesn’t have a fandom community that’s all that big will - if they’re capable - take part in English-speaking fandom. There is incomparably more content. 

And that is precisely due to English being spoken by everyone – the point of this post isn’t: “IT’S BAD THAT ENGLISH IS THE LINGUA FRANCA”.

No, we’re glad that we have a lingua franca that means we can communicate without having to learn everybody’s language first.

The poster before me even said it:

We are able to engage, through the use of English, in cross-cultural exchanges, in cross-linguistic exchanges that are allowed by using English as a lingua franca.

The point of this post is that often enough, native speakers will a) not even think about the fact that lots of people they talk to are not native speakers, and b) belittle non-native speakers’ for their “inferior” English. While at the same time, most of the time they don’t have to put any effort at all into international (online) communication - because everyone learnt their language.

As the post and its additions say several times:

I wonder if native English speakers appreciate how much more comfortable the internet is for them than for the rest of the world 

But it’s still my 3rd language and there will be always things that escape me

Why are you so bothered by people not speaking English perfectly?

Since you think my English isn’t good enough

If someone doesn’t know English then said person is uneducated, isn’t wordly, is not qualified enough.

Tourists are expected to speak perfect English and be proficient in it to avoid any inconvenience to native English speakers when travelling abroad to English speaking countries 

When native English speakers claim our Englishes aren’t clear, or we aren’t making any sense, they are really not making the extra effort.

Because no matter how good our English is, how proficient we are, someone is always going to argue we aren’t good enough, that we aren’t trying hard enough.

since I wasn’t a native speaker, I obviously didn’t understand what she was saying and therefore my arguments were invalid.

The issue is this: 

@bringbuckyback you’re not understanding what we are saying.

No one ever said you and other English speakers personally are oppressing anyone. What we’re saying is that you’re lucky because you didn’t have to do the huge effort we did. And if you can’t see why it’s a huge effort to learn a foreign language and use it for everything, or why it’s a problem that people are replacing their own native languages for the one they are made to believe is prestigious, then the misunderstanding goes way further than this post.

When I made the original post I did in a moment of frustration, I didn’t even tag it or anything and wasn’t expecting it to get any attention. But seeing the notes, comments like yours and many, many more native English speakers (mainly USAmericans) make very ignorant comments I’m glad I made it, because it’s unbelievable that many of you don’t know this. But we do not have a choice to learn English. It’s a must. It’s not that you personally will shun me or anyone else for not speaking English, obviously not. It’s that we wouldn’t be able to live without one of those Cambridge English certificates. We can’t get hired anywhere without at least a B2 in English. We can’t even graduate college without an English certificate, even when our degree has nothing to do with English. We also must study English all years of mandatory education (so that’s 12 years), but English in school sucks to you either pay for a private academy or you fail, which is a huge problem for many families.

And the reason why English is the international language isn’t because it’s one of the most widely spoken languages on the world, that’s more of a consequence. England made sure that their language would be the global one as part of their programme to impose itself on the rest of the world (google English imperialism).

In your comments you seem to be looking for something to do with this information. Well, I’m not saying you should “be overtly grateful for being English” nor that you “thank the lord everyday for speaking the language you speak”. Honestly, I wasn’t asking anything of you with this post? I was just explaining our situation, which hundreds of people related to so…

Idk, if I made a post saying for example “that moment when you’re shopping and there isn’t any shampoo left of the brand you like :/” would you come to comment we’re “acting oppressed” and misinterpreting you and calling you an oppressor because you’ve never been in that situation yourself? No. Not every single post about an experience thousands of people face has to apply to you.

But well, if your reaction to a post of someone saying “uff I wonder what it’s like to have stuff in my own language” was to get so defensive, I imagine you feel guilty? And that’s why you ask what to do with it? To start with, look at what people are explaining in the notes and understand that WE DON’T HAVE A CHOICE. English is mandatory for most of the world. And for one post that explains a situation of distress that you can’t relate to there’s no need to get like that, calling others dumb and “acting opressed” (when the word oppression was never part of this post in the first place).

You showed in your comments that this post was useful in the first place, because when I made it I assumed all English speakers were aware of the fact that we are forced to do so many things in your language and your culture, but apparently not. And that’s normal given how self-centered Anglo media is (especially USAmerican media), so before you misinterpret my words again, I’m not saying you personally are to blame for everything. It’s a system of things that benefits the legacy of the British empire.

Like @lordhellebore said, “if everyone else is using your language, at least acknowledge that you have it easier and don’t ridicule other for not being 100% perfect/fluent or adapting the language a little” and, I would add, don’t ridicule others for having different experiences than you either.

To begin, I am going to state that I whole heartedly agree with many, if not all, of the things spoken above. You do not need to look far to see the sprawling consequences of imperialism, both linguistic and political. On the internet English, due to its history and the fact that the modern use internet was originally created in English, is a norm. Rarely do you see a website that does not offer English translations. You are not limited by English on the internet. This is the point that @no-passaran and @dasakuryo were trying to make. Their point consists in the fact that as a non English speaker, often times you are forced to conform to the usage of English in order to obtain the same benefits of the internet. Well, you might ask, isn’t that a choice? They are choosing to use this system, so that comes with the territory. Well, unfortunately there are other influences at play. It is impossible to exist in the truly modern sphere without internet. Internet has become as ubiquitous as it has become anglocentric. 

That’s pretty much how it stands for L2+ learners of English, but something that hasn’t really been discussed here is the Language A and Language Alpha learners of English, otherwise known as simultaneous or native bilinguals. How does the omnipresence of english affect these individuals you might ask? Well, it pulls away from their other first language. A huge issue in bilingual language acquisition cases is the motivation to learn other languages. So, with the internet being more available in English than in Spanish, that provides English a upper hand in a tool that is essential for daily professional life. I do not fully subscribe to the economic theory of language acquisition that dictates children will learn the languages that they deem to have the most value, but there is a grain of truth to be found in that logic. That is partly why subsequent generations of immigrants tend to be English only monolinguals. There isn’t sufficient motivation to learn their heritage language when only English will suffice just as well.

That’s why this dominance of English transcends the issues of unavailable resources for things such as fandoms on the internet. It is one of the driving forces of the increasing dominance of English as a lingua franca, and a driving force in many’s lives to lose their heritage language. It is not the only factor, to be sure, but it a major player.

With the age of information ever progressing, the decreasing diversity of language is definitely something to be mourned. Research shows over and over that there is no disadvantage to being bilingual, in fact, in many aspects it is advantageous to be a bilingual. Yet, LOTE (languages other than english) are attacked constantly on a wide spread scale. This does not only apply to minority languages. Take for example, Deutsch/German. It has been increasingly prevalent for German youth to use a form of Deutsch called “Denglish” online. The effects are seen in other languages such as Spanish, French, and even Chinese. A large part of Chinese web culture has been influenced by English, even though it may look completely foreign to a native speaker of English.

The internet today stands as a constant reminder of America/Britain’s colonial and imperial past. It is a reminder that may never be wiped out. Linguistic diversity was already decreasing before the advent of the internet, and with technology becoming cheaper and more widespread, this trend will only accelerate.