Crystalizing Uranium since 1986

For example: if a trans woman says that the alt-right wants trans women dead, and a trans man pipes up that the alt-right wants trans men detransitioned, the trans man is inevitably told that he is still privileged, because merely being detransitioned is better than being dead. The fact that he could live at all in this scenario is a privilege trans men have over trans women.

And yet, when trans men point out that abortion bans could kill them, as pregnancy is quite literally a life-threatening event, trans women can say "this affects us too- someone could babytrap us!" and that is seen as enough to prove that trans men aren't actually the ones suffering from abortion bans more. The fact that trans women do not face any threat to life after being babytrapped is NOT seen as a privilege. And if you do succeed in making them drop the babytrapping issue, they'll instead say that they could be forced to detransition on the grounds that a child, quote, "needs a mother and a father." And here, detransitioning while staying alive is suddenly, magically, not a form of privilege held over someone who could die.

intersectionality is not "add your identities together and get oppression points." i personally like to think of it kind of like a phase graph from chem to help visualize and understand, idk how to explain that visualization best some chemistry nerd can probably explain, it just works for me

a transfeminized person experiences misogyny and experiences transphobia. but the hatred she faces isn't just misogyny + transphobia. the predator stereotype, the pervert stereotype, the bathroom panic, the specific ways trans women's bodies are hypersexualized and also extremely policed are not things that happen to cis women with some extra transphobia added on top. it's a unique discrimination that happens to transfems that is specific and inseperable. so transmisogyny is the intersection of transphobia and misogyny because you can't separate the misogyny from the transphobia and still accurately describe the way the discrimination, violence, and hatred functions.

this is part of why transandrophobia doesn't work.

for transandrophobia to be real, you would need to to show that there is a meaningfully distinct form of oppression experienced by transmascs/men that is from being both trans and being men. not transphobia that targets transmascs. not misogyny that catches people perceived as female. not just someone being uncomfortable around men. a specific, inseperable hatred of transmascs/men as transmascs/men.

for an example if a cis woman and a transmasc are both denied an abortion by the same law, under the same logic, by the same system, then it is not "transandrophobia," it's an example of reproductive misogyny. the transmasc/man is experiencing it as a trans person with a uterus. the cis woman is experiencing it as a cis person with a uterus. it's not happening because a trans man is a man, it's happening because the govt views people with the ability to give birth as incubators and those who cannot as failures.

> trying to tell trans men and transmascs that their oppression isn't real

Your opinion on this issue isn't relevant. You're not allowed to dictate who faces what oppression when you're not part of that group.

Also, how the *fuck* can you be ST4T and also go around saying that trans men and transmascs don't face hardships?

Firstly, here’s the post I was responding to:

And here was my response, which prompted this OOP’s post here:

“hey so two things. Firstly, if a cis lesbian is correctively raped in an attempt to get her pregnant and 'make her straight', then according to this logic that's just misogyny and not lesbophobia, since just about any cis women can be forcefully impregnated. With this logic, the corrective rape/forced pregnancy lesbian cis women face is not lesbophobia or homophobia, its just misogyny. BC yk, the system doesn't see them as a lesbian, just someone who can and should give birth, right? It's not like in this scenario, she's being explicitly targeted for being a lesbian, right? In this case, calling it lesbophobia would be "but it happened to me because I'm gay which makes it special" which would devalue misogyny, right? Its not a unique oppression if it also happens to cis straight women, right? If you think this is wrong then idk reevaluate your position bc I'm literally just taking your logic to its natural conclusion here. Secondly. I'm sorry, but until the action of getting someone pregnant has the possibility of forcing you to undergo irreversible body changes that potentially result in permanent disability or death, then I just don't think that being forced to impregnate is the same level of harm as being forcefully impregnated. Being forced to impregnate does not inherently have the chance to literally kill you the same way that being impregnated does.”

And so, in response, OOP made the post above. And also forgot to include this bit here which she left out:

So here’s my response to all that (edited some for clarity/better formatting):

“Firstly, I never claimed that’s how intersectionality works. Secondly, if a trans man is correctively raped because he is attempting to transition to be a man/his aggressor wants to detransition him, and is specifically targeted for his identity, is that not an intersectional experience? A trans man is a man because he is trans, and is trans because he is a man. You can’t separate the two, just like how you can’t separate a lesbian (cis or trans) either from her sexuality or gender, both are at play. Thirdly, considering that trans men have the second highest rates of rape and sexual assault in the community, with AFAB NBs coming in first, higher than trans women and much higher than cis women, I’d say that’s material evidence enough to call it a distinct form of oppression. If it were just misogyny that just targeted people perceived as women, then the rates wouldn’t be as high as they are compared to both trans and cis women. Fourthly, trans men routinely have the worst medical outcomes of the trans community, are the most likely to be denied healthcare (trans related healthcare or not), are the most likely to report experiencing negative issues with health professionals, and are the most likely to avoid medical treatment. Yes, this is also much worse than what cis women experience. This discrepancy cannot be addressed by misogyny or transphobia alone. Fifthly, If you have problems with me in good faith using an analogy to try and describe the flaws in your rationale, then I’m sorry but I don’t think you should be attempting discourse if you can’t handle even basic pushback. Also out of the both of us, I’m the one who’s gay here, not that I even think it matters. What does me bringing up lesbians as an analogy have to do with you personally?”

And to round it out with my response to the stuff OOP did not list in this post:

“Sixley, You’re the one trying to rank oppressions here, not me. That being said, I just don’t think you understand the scope of things here. Trans men are the second most likely to be targeted by rape and sexual assault, with AFAB nbs coming in first. In addition, I’m not saying that being forced to impregnate isn’t traumatic, it often is extremely so. But you have to understand that like. Yes. Trans women may become suicidal *if* they’re forced to detransition. But. Trans men, if they’re impregnated, will *by necessity* be forced to detransition, as you are *required* to stop any and all medical transition while pregnant, along with the medical complications and full body feminization of pregnancy, while additionally suffering from the worst medical treatment outcomes in the community. Trans men are experiencing all that you mentioned trans women experience, but with added dangers. I’m not trying to invalidate how traumatic it can be for trans women to be forced to impregnate someone, but crucially this is a unique form of forced and dangerous detransition that trans women aren’t targeted for, and do not experience to the degree that trans men do. Trans women should both be vocal about how traumatic being forced to inseminate someone is, while respecting trans men when they say that they face a unique form of reproductive oppression. To add on and just make my position clear once more, I never once said that trans women don’t understand reproductive oppression, and I especially never said that they’re male, you’re putting words in my mouth. By virtue of being trans, all trans people experience it. What I am saying though is just that when it comes to this *one particular instance*, trans men do face this unique injustice more readily and suffer from more dangerous consequences.”

Birth for people who can have it but are dysphoric about it, can be a permanent trauma on their body in so many ways. It’s okay to acknowledge that and it doesn’t make a person bad for feeling those things and it doesn’t make us ungrateful when we do feel dysphoric over it.

I saw these screenshots in the notes ~2m after it was decided:

I just took these of the project page:

& looking in the edit history, I see this:



Twice, one in the intro alongside other words used to describe the oppression that trans men face in this way, the other one being a restatement of that fact: “is sometimes referred to as anti-transmasculinity,[1] transandrophobia,[2] or transmisandry” “The discrimination experienced by transgender men has been described using various words, but none have seen widespread use. Terms used include anti-transmasculinity and transandrophobia.”

but then you have something like this. where it is just so painfully obvious they are on the same side of history as aphobes and biphobes. when you have people who 1) are not personally invested in transandrophobia not being a legitimate term, and 2) are actually looking at the academic and statistical sources given for transmasculine oppression, it becomes pretty obvious that this resistance is motivated by personal discomfort with the term.

notably, in my experience, people are super willing to come out swinging against transandrophobia, all confident in their rejection of the concept, until you respond with numerous cited sources on material transmasculine oppression and back it up with widely accepted feminist theory. then suddenly they ghost. so much anti-transmasculinity thrives as a direct result of people's refusal to acknowledge the reality of transmasc oppression, and when you can't do that because its a Wikipedia page with extensive sources, you have to fall back on petty defensive cruelty, because that was what was at the heart of this uproar all along.

I saw these screenshots in the notes ~2m after it was decided:

I just took these of the project page:

& looking in the edit history, I see this:

Geijtenbeek and Plug (2018)

“They found that there was a statistically significant decrease of -12% in earnings following MTFs transitioning from male-to-female and an insignificant increase of +7.5% for FTMs following their transition from female-to-male.”

Schilt and Wiswall (2008)

“these papers provide evidence consistent with a traditional cisgender pay gap, with ‘maleness’ enjoying an earnings premium over ‘femaleness’ in the workplace. These findings also jibe with qualitative research on FTMs experiences of transitioning while in the workplace, where they report feeling more respected and their human capital more highly valued following transition to male”

Connel (2010), Dozier (2005), Schilt (2006).

“The wider social science literature has documented greater negative feelings and prejudice against MTFs compared with FTMs, particularly by cisgender men.”

“The incomes of MTFs who begin living full-time as female at a younger age are lower than those who wait, while the incomes of FTMs who begin living full-time as male at a younger age are higher. These findings are consistent with the wider research on the differences in labour market returns experienced by cisgender men and women.”

For example, the Schilt and Wiswal 2008 study only consists of 18 MtF workers and 25 FtM workers. This is an incredibly small sample size that cannot be used as representative of larger trends.

In the Geijtenbeek and Plug 2018 study, they find that "FTM workers earn significantly less than other men and MTF workers earn significantly more than other women." This contradicts other wage pay studies that show trans people of all genders earn less than cis people.

Also, important to note that this study only observes, "those transsexual individuals who go through hormone replacement therapy, sex reassignment surgery, and the legal process of changing one’s administrative gender." This is absolutely not representative of trans people in general. Particuarly in a country such as The Netherlands - where this study takes place - and where medical and legal transition is more accessible than in many other countries.

Your third paragraph is a quote of a paraphrase, making it hard to determine where exactly it came from.

The Matthew Shannon 2022 study I feel is the most misrepresented within the context of this post. The quote you gave is accurate, but the same paper says, "those who were assigned female at birth have significantly lower incomes and are more likely to work part-time than those assigned male at birth." So even with the advantages gained by transitioning young for FTMs, the overall trend is still that they earn less than those assigned male at birth.

I recognized the Matthew Shannon one and remembered I had a screenshot showcasing some of the data

The weighted average yearly income of trans women in this study was $53,550 and $38,130 for trans men

crunching the numbers (with a few variations; obviously since we don't have the raw data we can't 100% rely on these estimates, but there are still certain conclusions that are mathematically impossible. I just took the low and high ends of each category. the distribution might look totally different, but based on one of the tables towards the beginning that shows the full income breakdowns, it seems like every category skewed to the lower ends in a fairly even way, so I don't think this kind of estimating is going to be dramatically inaccurate. just don't take these numbers as gospel. which you shouldn't be doing anyways)

some other notable income-related parts:

Cis feminists LOVE an ancedote about a trans woman losing pay while a trans man gains it, because it slots perfectly into their pre-existing & cissexist understanding of gender oppression. Its the idea that cis women should include trans people, not as trans people, but as additional evidence that misogyny as it affects cis women and male privilege as it affects cis men is real.

Do I even need to say anything about how wildly wrong and dangerous this rhetoric is...?

> parroting LITERAL fascist rhetoric