Does that trans man actually "want to be seen as a woman" or is he so afraid of being assaulted in men's spaces if he is outed that he will use women's spaces?
Does that trans man actually "want to be seen as a woman" or is he asking you not to erase his lived experience?
Does that trans man actually "want to be seen as a woman" or has he been scared by all the posts mocking male transition results into thinking he'll be a laughingstock if he starts balding?
Does that trans man actually "want to be seen as a woman" or has he seen masculine people be treated as inherently predatory so often that he holds this back to be seen as a person?
Does that trans man actually "want to be seen as a woman" or is he trying to avoid being treated the way you treat masculine people?
Does that trans man actually "want to be seen as a woman" or is his childhood still influencing how he conducts himself?
Does that trans man actually "want to be seen as a woman" or is he speaking about misogyny he has experienced?
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THE NEEDS AND DESIRES OF WHICH MEN, YOU STUPID ASSHOLE???? CISGENDER MEN!!!!!
I literally gasped i truly cannot believe there's people who fail to comprehend reality this badly, and then in the same post act so patronising and like trans men are the ones not understanding social theory because they can see this simplistic bullshit is just plain wrong and not true
trans people arent considered to be men or women by transphobes. we are all considered to be a third gender, and failures to conform to cisgenderism/"failures of gender." if transphobia didn't exist, then we could say that trans men are in the sociopolitical class of man, and trans women are in the sociopolitical class of woman, but unfortunately transphobia does exist. if this were true then transmisogyny/transandrophobia also wouldnt exist, because trans men would just be seen as men by wider society, and trans women would just be seen as women by wider society
trans women and cis women are both misogynized. trans men and other trans people are also misogynized. you COULD say that trans people who are misogynized (pretty much all of us) are in the sociopolitical class of woman, but trans people are third gendered and seen as failures to conform to gender, thats literally where transphobia comes from
i will also say that trans women are not in the sociopolitical class of man and trans men are not in the sociopolitical class of woman. trans people are universally seen as failures to conform to cisgenderism. a lot of transphobes say that they see trans women as men and trans men as women, and that is usually not true. first and foremost they see us as trans, seperate from men or women. again, that is where transphobia (including transandrophobia and transmisogyny) comes from. if transphobia did not exist, and trans men were seen as men and trans women were seen as women, neither transmisogyny or transandrophobia would exist. trans men would also have male privilege if misogyny existed without transphobia, but we do unfortunately live in the reality where transphobia does exist so none of this is true
trans women and trans men arent really seen as very distinct from each other by the average transphobe, and transphobes who are bigotted to one gender in particular (this includes trfs/tmerfs btw) are always balanced out by another group of transphobes who only target another gender in particular, and are also always bigotted towards all trans people and are just covert about it. neither trans men nor trans women have substantial privilege over one another. we are both oppressed in our own unique ways and we are also oppressed in most of the same ways. unfortunately, trans women are not in the sociopolitical class of women, because transphobia exists (as does transmisogyny) that excludes them from cisnormative womanhood just as it excludes trans men from cisnormative manhood. thats also why the argument that "well disabled men are still considered men" doesnt really hold up, because trans people are uniquely affected by third gendering, so on a base level to transphobes, none of us are really considered men OR women
in conclusion, trans people are trans and are in the sociopolitical class of trans. because transphobia exists and wider society oppresses trans people
as part of the transfem voices project, mousidy felt the need to highlight the voice of a woman who, as a 12 year old boy addicted to loli pornography, molested an 8 year old girl and spent years in the juvenile detention system as a result. this woman is now a 30 year old self-admitted pedophile, enabled by parents (whose support she credits with keeping her alive) who have seemingly coddled her every step of the way, including somehow allowing their child the means to easily access pornography after molesting another child, who now self-flagellates on tumblr about how much she wants to die because people would want her dead just knowing that she is a pedophile. not even based on the fact that she was a 12 year old boy that molested an 8 year old girl.
she loosely connects her story to transmisogyny at the end by going "well idk if I faced transmisogyny before I came out but I did after I'm so scared because transmisogynists would call me a pedophile and they would be right everyone wants me dead I can't be pedojacketed because I have the jacket on :("
great #OwnVoices job, team. knocked it out of the park. hit the showers.
if you are able, consider donating to a group like Survivors of Incest Anonymous, which helps provide a safe space for victims of CSA, including victims of COCSA, to talk about and heal from their experiences.
B-but people with micropenises are my emotional support minority to bully!! 🥺🥺 B-but it's funny that their penises are small!! 🥺🥺 B-but I only make fun of BAD people by calling their penises small!! 🥺🥺 I have good reason to make fun of people with micropenises!! 🥺🥺 It's not intersexism if it's funny!! 🥺🥺 It's sooo funny because their penises are small!! 🥺🥺 Guys it's sooo funny come on!! 🥺🥺
There is no feminist way to participate in toxic masculinity, and mocking people for having fragile masculinity is toxic masculinity, point blank period. Its fundamentally patriarchal.
The idea that "having fragile masculinity" is inherently a personality defect or moral failing is patriarchal. So much of this kind of bullshit is people taking fundamentally patriarchal ideas of manhood (for example, that men being vulnerable is a defect or moral failing) and defining it around slightly more feminist values.
Like, the only thing that is different from bog standard patriarchy here is the inclusion of "macho." But like, the idea that there are "fragile" men who fail to be "real men" with unshakeable firm masculinity, and they also secretly have small penises and are biologically less manly compared to "real men" whose real manhood can be located in their large penises... babe that's just toxic masculinity. The same "macho" shit you hate those men for, you yourself engage in, just a little to the left.
Fragile masculinity is not a moral failing, and it doesn't intrinsically make someone a worse person. And tbh I think talking about "fragile masculinity" like this is kind of disgustingly individualistic, and doesn't do much to encourage conversation about how patriarchy constructs manhood and masculinity as tools of control and oppression (what some feminists might call misandry).
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so like when is everyone going to start applying the whole “what do you call 10 people sitting at a table with a nazi? 11 nazis” line of thought to child rape fetishists and pedophilia apologists?
i’m not saying you have some moral obligation to vet every single random person you reblog from. but why is your mutual posting little sister rape fantasies. why is your mutual’s mutual doing that. like, why are you comfortable socializing with people after you see that they clearly don’t think it’s a dealbreaker to fantasize about raping children or sexually abusing your siblings or whatever.
again my point is not that you have to be a detective about it. but if you rightly draw the line at following and being friends with a pedophilia apologist, why don’t you draw the line at keeping the company of people who do the same? how does it not make you sick to your stomach to turn a blind eye to someone in your social circle very publicly getting off to child rape?
Kadji Amin joins Jules to talk the category nonbinary, the asymmetry of trans masculinity and trans femininity, and a shared love of f*gottr
I just found this and it's really bad
Wtf is this seriously.
Not only is this just an absolute circle jerk, but they view enben (in 2021 mind you) As a political statement, as something like oooh we're just shaking things up, we're so silly goofy.
Hey how about ask us?
This is the lady who goes to further her reactionary hatred of non binary people with her "transgender liberalism" article.
At least in 2021 they both treated us like some strange tropical bird they were studying. Now it's pure blame and hatred.
This is the kind of "scholars" that make me want to be more loudly mogai. Because the self is the point, you don't need anyone's external evaluation in order to be. I don't live my gender in relation to other people, it's not an act, it's just a static piece of info about me.
Also, "if everyone treated me like I was okay, I'd not transition" is a very strange argument to bring out. I don't think we should treat trans people harshly in hopes it'll push them to transition. That's fucked up.
Okay yeah I read this article and it sucks ass. Also this reblog got longer than anticipated to under a cut it goes.
They keep talking about nonbinary people in the abstract, and going like "ohh if only we could understand what nonbinary femmes think their identity means! Are they trying to figure out the boundary between being a gay man and being a trans woman??? What are their intentions???? If only we could know!" like. Jules. You know you are allowed to talk to nonbinary people right? And listen to their words? You don't have to speculate on them from your ivory transsexual tower, helpless to understand their strange and foreign minds.
Not to mention how they continually treat "nonbinary" as, seemingly, equivalent to non-transitioning, and draw a sharp distinction between "transsexuals" and "nonbinary people." They talk in this frustrating, masturbatory way about their many Intellectual Transsexual Questions for nonbinary people and just projecting all their exorsexist bullshit onto nonbinary people, and acting like its impossible for them to just ask a nonbinary person?
this whole paragraph:
Whenever I would think of genderqueer (the term in vogue in my twenties) and nonbinary as positions, I would imagine them as truly heroic. As naming people who are able to exist in a space where others don’t see who you know yourself to be, but you just don’t care. Your sense of yourself is so strong you don’t need to change your body to get other people to see you in a certain way; you just know that other people are wrong and that you’re right and that’s okay. And I thought I could never be strong enough to do that. In my life I had associated it with the most unbearable dysphoria, the most unbearable gap between how I was seeing myself and how other people were seeing me, especially once I had taken on the pronouns he/him but was trying to transition without testosterone.
So, I thought of nonbinary as this heroic position for a long time and then, more recently, I’ve begun to have doubts and think, well, maybe that’s not how it feels.
LISTEN, KADJI. I DO NOT WANT TO BE YOUR NONBINARY HERO. I DO NOT WANT TO BE SEEN AS TRULY HEROIC.
They seem just. Obsessed, with this image of nonbinary people as "brave" for being visibly androgynous?
[J]: [...] But this is the problem because we don’t have an operative, positive account of what’s at stake in nonbinary trans femininity, so it gets filtered through these really superficial lenses. Like, “well, they get treated like shit all the time, but they’re really resolute, plus it’s empowering to have facial hair and wear lipstick,” and I’m like, yes, okay, but tell me more! I want to know.
Kadji: Maybe my major question is why there isn’t more of a discourse about all of this? Even an intra-community discourse where questioning people could go online and hear “this is what it means to identify with this as opposed to that, this is what you do.” I don’t know if I should read that as a refusal or—
Jules: Or just the impossibility of speaking outside a discourse of gender? Which in some ways, nonbinary is trying to do in a really sophisticated way, but which remains very hard. How can you simultaneously dissent from a system but still maintain its central presumption, which is that gender is a fundamentally important facet of the self? That seems like a really complex tangle that, technically, is not unique to being nonbinary. Even cis women have this problem to some extent, but there’s something really interesting in the nonbinary case that is not being unleashed.
How can we understand the phenomenologies attached to different trans identities of this moment and what their claims are on the relationship between the self and the social? It seems like the contemporary taxonomy of gender identity and expression suggests that every identity position is valid so long as it is articulated and can therefore be respected, and in that sense it becomes devoid of content. How do you give an account of yourself in this situation?
This just feels like "I don't get nonbinary people" soaked in fifty-three layers of academic language, all to avoid confronting the fact that nonbinary people are nonbinary in the same way a trans woman is a trans woman. They just cannot help but insist that nonbinary people are "heroic" and "trying to [speak outside the discourse of gender] in a really sophisticated way," like they are truly only able to conceptualize nonbinary identity as a political move and act helpless about their ability to talk to a nonbinary person and take what they say seriously without secretly re-interpreting it as whatever bullshit they want (such as "nonbinary people think they are soooooo much better than us binary people!" looking at you, Jules.)
More exorsexism:
But one of the things you and I have been trying to understand is what’s the historical trajectory here to nonbinary. For a long time, the line between a faggot—a really effeminate gay person, a queen, or even a drag queen—and a trans femme was blurry and there is a lot of cultural anxiety about that slide in Western culture. That you might go all the way, that it might be horrifying and abjecting, or it might be something like the total freedom of feminization or castration, or even bottomhood (to which I laugh, as a femme top). It’s this sort of construct of the gay imaginary. But it also leads to this question: since there’s so little space for nonbinary trans femmes today and there’s a lot of pressure on them to put out something legible, they have to use this taxonomy of “oh, I’m not a man or woman, but I’m definitely not a man”—and then what? I’m always searching for the positive account that comes after “here is what I’m not,” and I’d like to see more cultural space granted to that. If you’re a nobinary trans femme that has a largely aesthetic component to your transition—say, makeup, clothes, and pronouns—what is it that differentiates you positively from the faggot as a gay boy or feminine person who is not a man?
I want to underline that there has been precious little oxygen accorded to that, so this is not a criticism of any of these people. Not enough has been granted to them to affirm their desires. And since there is so much pressure in our contemporary taxonomy to separate gender from sexuality, it seems to make the situation even more impossible.
I am just. so confused by her confusion here? Once again, Jules, JUST TALK TO NONBINARY FEMMES ABOUT THIS??????? Why in the WORLD are you having this conversation with a binary trans man. What purpose does this serve except jerking each other off on how much nonbinary people confuse you and seem to have no phenomenological basis for their existence.
[Kadji]: So, I thought, okay, gay male culture has done its best to kill the possibility of faggotry, but here are nonbinary femmes bravely trying to resuscitate it as a living possibility rather than a site of abjection. But as time has gone by, I’ve started to wonder if maybe that’s not what they’re doing, and it’s still unclear to me because of the lack of a space for that kind of discourse, or a refusal to explain themselves in that kind of way. I’m quite surprised, given the amount of space that was devoted in the late 1990s to early 2000s to figuring out the butch/trans man proximity, that there’s still a vacuum for that kind of discourse on the other side. How do you know if you’re a gay man or a trans woman? How do you know if you’re a trans woman or a nonbinary femme? This contributes to my lack of understanding of what a phenomenological position for nonbinary femme might be.
Again, I don’t know if that’s what any nonbinary femmes are trying to do, but if that is what some are trying to do, I’m not sure it’s working. As in, I’m not sure that enough people know how to read or respond accordingly to a trans femininity that isn’t either gay effeminacy or trans womanhood.
WHO GIVES A FUCK IF PEOPLE KNOW HOW TO RESPOND TO US. for a lot of nonbinary people its live illegibly but openly or be in the closet forever and want to kill yourself because there is no space for you. I hate to pull the "we have dysphoria" card, but like, WE DO HAVE DYSPHORIA TOO, YOU KNOW? for a lot of nonbinary femmes there is no fucking "project" other than living a life that makes you feel real despite never being given any social reality. They go on to talk about how butches apparently have more cultural legibility, but I do not understand why the "faggot" or femboy or drag queen is not seen as a nonbinary femme equivalent? There is plenty of hostility from cis woman butches towards nonbinary and transmasculine butches. I guess the point is that all of those rely upon the assumption of attraction to men.... but so does butch, and there are gay transmascs who still identify as butch, butch4butch (which for some was a way of being a gay trans men when the option did not seem available) has always been treated negatively, and once again. Why is nonbinary identity being judged around people can get what we are by looking at us?
& then there's the same old bullshit about how transmascs have always had more cultural space and "reasons to transition" (what?), alongside a quote in which she says "and who the fuck in this world is allowed to desire to be a woman?" tell me you know nothing about how misogyny works. People raised as women are expected to desire to be a woman, obligated to do so. I do not know why the fuck people cannot get it in their heads that yes, womanhood is treated as a lesser state of existence, but for those who are expected to fulfill the role of daughtermotherwife, that lesser state is what they are meant to be happy with. They also claim there is "so much more cultural space for mascs, including nonbinary, and there’s so much more history (for butches and non-binary mascs)." Which. Fucking. Where.
ultimately, i think this final part of this interview hits more clearly on what issue they are taking with nonbinary people:
[Kadji] This is a hypothesis, but I do think today’s taxonomies seem more confusing than ever—though perhaps that doesn’t feel true to people who are coming into their genders today. But I believe that they are more confusing than they are helpful to actual queer and trans people. [...]
And so, I imagine that today, when there is a huge proliferation of options and the options often overlap or are synonymous without substantial phenomenological accounts to differentiate them, and the pressure to come into a true self has never been greater than it used to be—it seems just flabbergasting and impossible.
What I’ve realized is that I believe that the matter of gender is practical and relational. It’s not about who you are inside, it’s more about how you would feel most comfortable in the world. It’s not Who are you? but How do you want to live?
Had that been the discourse when I was coming up, I would have breathed a sigh of relief. I don’t have to figure out who I am on the inside, I just have to figure out how I want to live.
look, i'm a pragmatist and a phenomonologist, i also see gender as being to some degree inherently practical and relational. but as a nonbinary person, i do not have the luxury of living the way that makes me feel fucking comfortable. my feelings of being nonbinary are not abstract, they materially impact me. nonbinary identity is about survival, to me, point blank period. survival comes first, survival is where the term nonbinary/genderqueer/whatever terms we use emerges because it emerges from us no longer being able to live without giving voice to our sense of otherness.
demanding nonbinary provide a phenomenological account that satisfies binary "transsexuals" who define their transsexuality opposed to nonbinary people, using the language of "gender is practical and relational, not who you are inside," maybe i'm being dramatic here when i say this, but its a threat to nonbinary survival. patriarchy makes us illegible and then we are punished i mean critiqued i mean "we're just asking questions!!" for not being legible. because we practice, in Jules' words, "nonbinary idealism" and are all rich white people who are just doing this to be heroic and make ourselves look more #woke than binary transsexuals.
anyways, shoutout to one of the people in the comments who said:
you two talk as though non-binary femmes (heroically, but also for fun) put on some makeup and change their pronouns and thereby become illegible. for my part, i have always felt illegible (how is that for a phenomenology of non-binary gender).
most of the answers to your questions here are in your own the text if you begin from the assumption that non-binary people have a genuine experience of their gender as neither men nor women.
^ literally exactly the point. Jules and Kadji are exorsexist and fundamentally do not seem to grasp the idea that nonbinary people feel nonbinary and that feeling nonbinary has a real impact on your life regardless of whether you want it to or not. They literally cannot, or refuse to, see nonbinary gender as functioning the same as their genders, and so treat nonbinary people like a peculiar species of not-quite-trans with mysterious motivations, and not just like normal fucking trans people.
All in all, as a nonbinary transsexual, everything JGP says about nonbinary people makes me feel like I am going fucking crazy.
It feels like Jules doesn't even talk to trans women who aren't strongly tied to cis gay culture that much, so a lot of this reads as "but how do non-binary transfems fit into cis gay culture?" Like, "For a long time, the line between a faggot—a really effeminate gay person, a queen, or even a drag queen—and a trans femme was blurry and there is a lot of cultural anxiety about that slide in Western culture." And then Kadji saying: "So, I thought, okay, gay male culture has done its best to kill the possibility of faggotry, but here are nonbinary femmes bravely trying to resuscitate it as a living possibility rather than a site of abjection."
And, like, speaking for myself (as an agender trans woman), I just don't occupy a space in cis gay culture. So yeah they're going to have trouble fitting me in there. IDK this feels like high school when peers called me a faggot and thought I must be a cis gay boy because I was obviously queer and that was the only kind of queer they could think of. But I'm ace and I'm not a man and I'm not into feminine gender expression. I am definitely not a gay man being extra faggy about it. My relationship to the culture of gay men is that of an outsider with a history of people incorrectly thinking I'm one of y'all.
And in terms of internal identity vs. relational identity, my internal identity is "agender" and my relational identity is "trans woman". Reading through those bits from their conversation, I think I'm not even on their radar enough that it's occurred to them to interrogate my positionality or whatever. I'm not "brave" or trying to make a statement or primarily interested in the aesthetics or anything like that. In society I hope people read me as a woman who isn't into feminine gender expression, because that's a reasonably comfortable and reasonably socially accepted thing to be. I don't put the non-binary aspects of my identity front-and-center in my interactions with people because I don't want the hassle. It doesn't feel good.
Anyways yeah they should both talk to more transfems. Sure, there are trans women and other transfems who are strongly associated with the culture of cis gay men. But if that's kind of the entire landscape they can imagine for transfemininity they gotta get out of their bubble every now and then.
The entire thing is based on the premise that nonbinary people are really part of the gender binary and just putting on an act to try and make a statement, which is made all the more absurd with how frequently they both admit they can't figure out what that statement is supposed to be.
"What are nonbinary people trying to do?" survive, mainly. Just be myself and survive. I'm not nonbinary because I'm trying to make a statement or be empowering or shit I'm just living my fucking life.
yeah, exactly. They genuinely can not imagine gender outside of the binary so hard that they have to twist themselves into knots trying to understand us, when they could literally just ask. They don't want to understand, because that doesn't get them attention and money or whatever reason they do this for
If a person's friends are racist and they don't care because it doesn't impact them or they try to reframe their buddy's racist behavior as something else, they are also racist, okay? 🫶
Like straight up I don’t feel bad that a callout post exposing someone for being predatory or genuinely assaulting someone follows them around and never lets them forget about it and makes them scared that other people are going to get them. Damn, that’s crazy, how do you think the person you preyed on feels? I’m sure that event doesn’t follow them around or never lets them forget what happened or makes them scared that other people are going to hurt them in the same way!
“Oh so you think people who make callouts for petty drama-“ if someone writes a callout on you for a minor personal misunderstanding or like for being a bad friend the worst that happens is their other friends don’t like you and no one above the age of 17 takes it that seriously. Come on now
okay so the problem with nonfags' analysis of homoeroticism in art is that most of you are very very bad at recognizing actual homoeroticism. I say this as a gay man.
like most of what you guys think is homoeroticism is actually just "gay bravado", which is a process where straight men ritually reinforce their own heterosexuality by joking about gay sex with each other. It's a form of homophobia. The joke is that gay sex is repulsive, bizarre, and inconceivable for them to actually engage in. it's incredibly common and I can't believe we're still having this discussion honestly
prev tags:
#it does rub me the wrong way when people say men who hate women must be gay/that straight male culture is gay#like i know that its not the intention but youre still using gay as an insult there yk
#but at the end of the day these men who hate women are mostly not attracted to men#because that would require a personal authentic relationship to their sexuality that they do not have
#theyre literally hetero-sexual#their sexual identity is being straight#not having genuine and sincere attraction to women as human beings#but being straight
[ID: Tags by @grodyego reading "#same thing with men using their disgust/dismissal of women as a bonding tool #it's not on the basis of having any actual significant sexual or intimate attraction to do with men it's about reinforcing their own #masculinity with the use of misogny #i only bring this up bc they tend to go hand in hand a lot too wrt joking about gay sex" /End ID]
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transmascs not experiencing the overlap between misogyny and transphobia that transfems experience does not make them privileged over transfems, as they also experience an overlap of misogyny and transphobia that transfems do not experience
saying other group has set system privilege over the other is just untrue, and who is more privileged will depend on the circumstances
systemically theres no real oppression under the patriarchy that trans men face trans women do not. you face regular misogyny, you face transphobia, and those don't intersect because transphobia in and of itself is misogyny
trans-misogyny is much more than Just An Intersection and the treatment of transfeminized people by society is inherently different. inherently worse. not just socially or interpersonally but systemically. this has been theorized on for decades. disagree? would love to hear any genuine analysis you have that's not "nooo i'm not privileged!"
“there is no real oppression trans men face that trans women do not.”
we need gynecological care. we experience higher rates of medical discrimination that effect access to gynecological care. our ability to get abortions is effected by this, as is it effected by abortion being made illegal. some medical providers deny birth control to trans people on testosterone hrt. forced pregnancy is commonly used to detransition us.
neither trans nor cis women face this in the way that we do.
“there is no real oppression trans men face that trans women do not.”
period stigma. the financial burden of menstrual products. female class genital mutilation. female class infanticide. stunted development encouragement as children due to sexist bias. in some countries we cannot leave without the permission of a cis man due to being classed as female.
“the treatment of transfeminized people by society is inherently different. inherently worse. not just socially or interpersonally but systemically.”
socially: trans men have higher rates of sexual violence, one in two trans men have been sexually assaulted. we also have higher rates of domestic violence, and intimate partner violence. we have higher suicide attempt rates. as well as being more likely to be in severe psychological distress and depressed. while less likely to be generally happy and thriving. we are more likely to be harassed or discriminated against in restaurants, hotels, retail stores, and bathrooms. and have higher avoidance rates of public bathrooms.
systemically: we are less represented in political office. we are more likely to have negative experiences with law enforcement. we overall are found to make less money. we are more likely to be harassed when we present incongruent identity documents. testosterone is a controlled schedule III substance that can result in criminal charges without a prescription. it is more common for us to be denied insurance coverage of hrt. due to our higher rates of medical discrimination we are also much more likely to avoid receiving necessary medical treatment due to fear of harassment and discrimination. we have higher rates of being in poor health. and avoiding healthcare due to cost. and are also more likely to be harassed or discriminated against by government agencies. as well as have negative experiences with airport security.
we also have comparable violent victimization rates with trans women. and trans boys are just as likely to be homeless.
“systemically there is no real patriarchal oppression trans men face that trans women do not.”
we need gynecological care. we experience higher rates of medical discrimination that effect access to gynecological care. our ability to get abortions is effected by this, as is it effected by abortion being made illegal. some medical providers deny birth control to trans people on testosterone hrt. forced pregnancy is commonly used to detransition us.
neither trans nor cis women face this in the way that we do.
“systemically there is no real patriarchal oppression trans men face that trans women do not.”
period stigma. the financial burden of menstrual products. female class genital mutilation. female class infanticide. stunted development encouragement as children due to sexist bias. in some countries we cannot leave without the permission of a cis man due to being classed as female.
this is real, systemic, patriarchal oppression, that those shoved into the class of 'female' at birth face, and trans women do not.
“the treatment of transfeminized people by society is inherently different. inherently worse. not just socially or interpersonally but systemically.”
socially: trans men have higher rates of sexual violence, one in two trans men have been sexually assaulted. we also have higher rates of domestic violence, and intimate partner violence. we have higher suicide attempt rates. as well as being more likely to be in severe psychological distress and depressed. while less likely to be generally happy and thriving. we are more likely to be harassed or discriminated against in restaurants, hotels, retail stores, and bathrooms. and have higher avoidance rates of public bathrooms.
systemically: we are less represented in political office. we are more likely to have negative experiences with law enforcement. we overall are found to make less money. we are more likely to be harassed when we present incongruent identity documents. testosterone is a controlled schedule III substance that can result in criminal charges without a prescription. it is more common for us to be denied insurance coverage of hrt. due to our higher rates of medical discrimination we are also much more likely to avoid receiving necessary medical treatment due to fear of harassment and discrimination. we have higher rates of being in poor health. and avoiding healthcare due to cost. and are also more likely to be harassed or discriminated against by government agencies. as well as have negative experiences with airport security.
we also have comparable violent victimization rates with trans women. and trans boys are just as likely to be homeless.
none of this is to say that trans women are oppressing us, or that transmisogyny is not a very real social and systemic force that can be wielded against them. but it is to say that we have something like that going on too. there are things that we face, and ways in which we can be hurt, that are unique to us, and they need to be addressed. the way towards our joint liberation will never be found through erasing trans male and masculine oppression. there should be room for all of us to get our needs met and be heard in our entirety.
Men who are violent choose to be violent, assigning violence as inherently male or masculine is to set up an identity that encourages and enables violence.
It's a way to silence marginalized male and masculine identities by assigning them as the true male aggressor while those in positions of great power can continue to skirt around blame.
A lot of you engage in toxic masculinity and don't experience a lick of connection to manhood or masculinity, so you find it irrelevant to you, and I'm here to tell you, it's very relevant.
I understand a lot of where you’re coming from but I don’t think “systemic male privilege” actually literally means “full and unconditional access to male privilege” even though some people are using it that way. for me, I pass as cis and I definitely feel the benefit of that in the workplace, where I’m stealth, and I have to go out of the way to ask my female coworkers who for example are the dudes who trade sexual favors for promotions are, because I wouldn’t know. I am frequently offered the work I want first, and regarded as harder working than female coworkers who I see as working just as hard as me, and people are *way* more sympathetic when I’m not in a good mood. These are just examples but I am treated this way because of systemic male supremacy and the fact that it is conditional based on me continuing to remain closeted does not change that it is the result of systemic misogyny, and I’m confused why “conditional privilege” is so often deployed as an antonym for “systemic privilege”. Obviously none of this exempts me from the misogyny and transphobia I experience in situations where I am outed, but I don’t think that bigotry makes the experience of passing as male insignificant either. (Ftr, I also think trans women who boymode have a similar experience, and I think we should all be more willing to admit it and talk about it instead of flinging shit at each other)
so systemic male privilege isnt being perceived as a cis man in public, its the way that the system our society is built on benefits cis men. like how systemic oppression is systemic institutions (government, healthcare, ect) oppressing a marginalized group. no trans man can have systemic male priviiege because we are systemically oppressed for being trans
social male privilege is different. social male privilege is literally just being read as a cis man and gaining benefits from that. trans men (and all trans people who are perceived as cis men socially) can benefit from social male privilege, which is what you're describing. people can benefit from social male privilege while not benefitting from systemic male privilege
however, trans men (and all trans people) who have access to social male privilege do not have unconditional access to male privilege in the way that cis men do. and the conditional aspect is important to a lot of us because being outed as trans, even if youre cis passing and stealth, is a lot easier than people think. ive effectively had to have been openly trans to at least every single one of my employers on account of having a legal name and gender different than the ones i have now, and when my name wasnt changed i would be outed when people would see my deadname, because it was very obviously feminine. im a healthcare worker and have to undergo background checks for work, and i intend to stay in the healthcare field indefinitely, so i will be continously outed at every job i have just to pass a background check. i think there is a discussion to be had about the fact that most trans people have to out themselves as trans to find work (namely with our "born sex" and deadnames/former legal names) unless we are self employed (mainly sex work, where trans people are also usually forced to market off the trans fetish), but thats another conversation. i also dont know how accurate that is to every field, my wife and i work in healthcare which is highly regulated, so it may be different in other fields
the condition of male privilege is important for all trans people. having to hide who we are for safety isnt a privilege. that's why being stealth isnt a privilege, it is usually done for safety or comfort reasons. passing as cis is a privilege imo as a passing trans person, and theres a certain amount of safety that i felt passing as a cis woman that i dont feel passing as a cis man (mainly when i am found to be "legally female" looking the way i do, i am immediately seen as trans as opposed to a gnc cis woman, which is less safe, not that being seen as a cis woman is safer than being seen as a cis man) but being stealth is mainly a result of oppression, not a privilege
another thing is that trans men have different relationships with their trans identity. some trans men want to live as cis men and their identity is affirmed by living as cis men, and some trans men (like myself) feel that their trans identity is an important part of who we are and dont want to live/be perceived as cis men. we are going to have different feelings surrounding conditional male privilege, because one side is having to hide who they are, and the other is affirming their gender. it is oppressive to have to hide who you are even if it comes with social benefits
regardless, if you are a trans man who is stealth and views himself to have social male privilege, youre probably right about that. but male privilege isnt just social, and the worst oppression I have faced at this point in my transition has been systemic when i am outed as trans. when people say that all trans men have male privilege, its disingenuous. some trans men might have social male privilege, but trans men cannot by definition benefit from systemic male privilege because the system in question literally knows that we are trans and can and will weaponize that against us. and beyond that, the conditional aspect is important, as well as if the trans man in question feels that hes being forced to hide that he is trans in order to gain access to social male privileged, or if the trans man in question wants to pass/live as a cis man and is just doing what is affirming to his gender, because that's also important. the reason we are talking about the fact that it is conditional male privilege is that the people saying that trans men (trans people in general as well) experience male privilege arent talking about social male privilege under the condition that you are seen as cis and never outed, theyre just talking about the same male privilege that cis men get, which unsurprisingly a lot of us have an issue with because a lot of us have been oppressed for being trans men even after we start passing
I think people who don't want phallo or any other bottom surgery should shut up sometimes.
Like all you have to say, is like: I don't think any off the available options are suitable for me, it's too expensive for me, I am not comfortable with the surgery, I have medical restrictions, I am fine with what I have, or like the million other completely valid reasons. But the moment it goes into hating on the results, or surgery, or calling it ugly etc, that's when I get mad.
Like I have seen so much of like calling it ugly or like a swollen sausage. Like my horrible summer child, a fucking sausage and two easter eggs painted by a four year old, would be better then what I have there right now.
Like yes it isn't and never will be perfect, but it is constantly evolving and getting better. Also it is a procedure real people get and are so happy. It saves lives and improves quality off life. Please shut up about your unsavory opinions on it.
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It is wild talking to people online where you'll be like "Hey, you're kind of being an ass," and they'll rant about how as a member of a marginalized community... oppression and violence... societal forces... lack of opportunity... and it's like "Ok, people who share some demographic with you are pushed into homelessness and sex work but they are not being assholes online. You are a grad student at Reed who works part-time as a paralegal and you are a real dick."
Genuinely one of the worst things to happen to online discourse in the past 15 years was the popularization - and thus the chronic watering down - of the term tone policing. Originally, it was coined by Black women to describe the tendency of privileged white women, when called out by WOC, to attack the way they'd spoken as a means of diverting from the substance of what was said: a literal DARVO tactic. It pointed out a specific, extant pattern of white women weaponizing their discomfort to stave off accountability and how WOC in general and Black women in particular were thus expected to speak with a servile sort of gentleness, not just as a matter of course, but particularly in situations that merited anything but.
What it soon became, however, was a catch-all justification for marginalized people to act like fucking assholes.
People started saying the most aggro, edgelord shit at the drop of a hat, and if anyone pointed out how shitty it was, the culprit would immediately turn around and claim they were being tone policed. The levels of toxicity this resulted in were through the fucking roof, and the result was multiple left-wing online communities fostering the presence of utterly vile trolls because any attempt to curtail them was met with a combination of defensive retreat into marginalization ("Oh, so [members of X marginalized group] aren't allowed to be angry?" "You wouldn't blink an EYE if a cishet white man said the same thing!") and a lambasting dogpile on whoever had dared to point out their bad behaviour.
This reached a fever-pitch in around 2014, at which point a bunch of shit happened that collapsed the established troll ecosystems across various online fronts. Since then, things have calmed down somewhat, but the impulse towards treating "hey, stop being an asshole" as a species of microaggression remained, such that it has now metastasized into - or at least significantly contributed to - the "UWU I am a Smol Bean 26yo minor and therefore I can't be held accountable for anything I say or do because I'm PRACTICALLY a CHILD" phenomenon.
At base, what all this bullshit ultimately reflects is the desire of a certain type of person to act like an asshole without consequence, which in left-wing spaces is achieved one of two ways: either by situating their target as having more privilege than them, such that they're fair game to abuse (because if they don't take the personal attacks or scathing denunciations of the entire category of person to which they belong in "good humour," then they're proving themselves to be one of the bad ones); or by situating themselves as having a unique right to never ever be criticized or held to account (because they're marginalized or disabled or having a mental health crisis or a MINOR, YOU GUYS and making them feel bad about the shitty things they said is basically abusive).
and the response btw is to not fall for it stand your ground reaffirm what they did was fucked up and dont fuck around with respectability politics there may be some who believe them and thusly believe you some evil demon but those people arent engaging in any conversation critically arent worth your time and were primed to flip on you no matter what regardless
Hey so if I decided to say, "I'm homophobia affected because I'm a lesbian. These bisexual people are homophobia exempt." And then started saying stuff about "we should murder all homophobia exempt people!" While very clearly talking about bisexuals, that would be bad and detestable, right?
Then when bisexuals spoke up and were like "hey we actually do experience homophobia because we are often perceived as queer. Also I'm really uncomfortable with how I'm being treated in my own community" but I responded by spouting statistics about corrective rape and violence against lesbians (despite the fact they never denied the suffering of lesbians), while ignoring their actual objection, we could agree that would be a horrible and biphobic thing to do?
