#1 Saebin Stan Account

1) Most cc boundaries in the spaces I'm currently in are specific.

A blanket ban on all romance is too broad and non specific, which makes it impossible to enforce or to follow willingly. I've read too many fics and seen too much art where the author/artist needs to put a "not shipping please don't tag as shipping" tag/note for me to believe that there isn't a large portion of fanworks that live in a subjective gray area.

Even if you don't think you're making shipping content, someone else might.

If the boundary was: no kissing, I might be more willing to stand behind it because it's simple and easy to understand and implement. I'd even be okay with multiple specific and clearly stated boundaries like that and would be willing to follow those guidelines myself. (Note: I would be doing it because I think it's nice, not because it is a moral obligation or the pinnacle of morality.)

2) The boundary was not just "no romance" the ‘boundary’ was "throw away all works currently with romance regardless of how important they are to you."

Yes yes, Pyro and Maddy have both stated you don't need to delete old works, but I have a project I've been working on for seven months. This project has gotten me through some rough mental health moments. This project has made me a better writer, friend, and person.

Selfishly, I don't want to give that up for a stranger who would have never seen it. Giving it up would make my mental health worse and remove one of my coping mechanisms.

But of course, because I'm not an influencer, my mental health as a fan is less important. Thanks.

3) Lack of clear communication from Maddy and Pyro to the community at large.

I'm not in their discords, I can't watch their streams because of time zones. The lack of communication on the platforms they are trying to enforce these boundaries on means that rumors, clips, and screenshots are the only ways most of us are getting any information. Pyro's pinned boundary list last I checked still has "shipping allowed" on the preview. You have to hunt for their boundaries on Tumblr.

Maddy was right, she does not owe anyone an explanation on why romance for her or Pyro's characters is bad for her mental health right now. There is no part of me that wants any of that information. That's for her and people she chooses to share that with.

But when you are making a drastic demand of a fandom like this, it should not be like pulling teeth to get a clear statement to the public of "please don't harass or hurt people"

3.5) We are not reading between the lines trying to justify breaking boundaries when we as fans are worried that Pyro's statements could be taken as an endorsement of harassment.

The reason we are "reading between the lines" is because many fans have gone through this before. The people who will and are currently harassing people don't need a direct statement from Pyro or Maddy saying "please go harass people" they already want to send violent images to the "guilty parties" they just need a whisper of endorsement. They just need a quick "won't someone rid me of this priest" and they are on it.

Hell, have you seen how many time Jimmy Solidarity has to defend the right of his friends to make fun of him because he finds it funny? People have used less to justify harassment than what Pyro has given these people.

We are not looking for justification when we say that Pyro made ambiguous statements that will be taken as endorsement of harassment. I'm glad they specified that they don't endorse harassment, again it should not have taken as many times as it did to get a clear "do not harass anyone" without the ever present caveat of "who isn't currently breaking boundaries"

The fact that they either don't understand or don't care about the very real risk of harassment, bullying, and literal crimes that people are willing to commit in the name of creator boundaries means that once again, the mental well-being of fans is less important than Maddy's.

The goal is to support Maddy's mental health, remember? We've shifted so hard into discourse land that the conversation is no longer about helping and it's now about control, being right, and "look how evil the other side is." No one on any side that I've seen or talked to wanted it to come to those three things.

4) Lack of accountability.

Every time someone has brought up a concern or clarifying question, Maddy and Pyro have shot it down, stepped around the question, or straight up banned or blocked the asker. Even fans who are being sincere and want information. I'm not looking for a youtube apology. A simple "I didn't word that quite right, here's what I actually meant" would have been fine.

Ideally an occasional "I didn't think about that" or "I haven't thought about it that way" would be nice, though I'm not holding my breath. The blatant "us vs them" of it all means that Pyro and Maddy aren't listening. I don't need them to agree, just to listen to the people who disagree.

The worst offending action on the front of the lack of accountability is when a fan brought up in the discord that historically, banning romance in fandoms has been an act of queerphobia (many people have written about that better than I can). Maddy did not address the concern and said that saying so was very hurtful because neither her nor Pyro are straight.

You can be queer and queerphobic. You can be a woman and do sexist things. You can be a racial minority and do racist things. Just because you are a member of a community doesn't mean you can't harm that community, even unintentionally.

Just because something hurts your feelings doesn't make it untrue. The fact that her feelings matter more to Maddy than acknowledging the history of these actions is enough for me to no longer want to be associated with this community. Especially since the defense of "all romantic relationships go against our boundaries including straight ones" was right there. I don't agree with that argument, but it's better than "I'm gay so nothing I do is homophobic" as a free pass.

5) An Ending.

Thanks for reading to the end. On top of all of these arguments are the ones that have been stated over and over, that ccs do not control fan spaces. My stance on boundaries is still "it's a nice thing to do." This boundary is so unreasonable both in its ambiguity and how Maddy and Pyro have communicated it, that I am not willing to break my back to do the "nice thing."

In regards to Legundo's post this morning I think getting banned or blocked from actual cc spaces is perfectly fine. I question the logistics of it, many people (myself included) have different usernames on different platforms so for instance if they want to ban me on discord because of my ao3 fics I have no clue how they're going to do that, but sure. Getting blocked is harmless and ultimately what many pro-shipping fans have been advocating for. Our main concern has always been censorship, control, death threats, and harassment. Again, not an exaggeration or to paint Maddy and Pyro in a bad light, but because it is already happening. We have been here before and we are here now.