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@virtualvapor
"Trans men arent oppressed for being men" and other extremely silly sentences from people who seem to believe you can separate gender from transgender
an excerpt from my essay “Girlboy Boygirl Blues / Antitransmasculinity as Denial of Individual History”
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Considering how it is incredibly well know that a default distrust and hatred of masculinity led to radical feminism and trans exclusionary radical feminsts, a group that is incredibly violent and hateful to trans women, I find it fascinating (read: Incredibly short sighted and foolish) how many trans women are openly embracing that kind of rhetoric. They seem to alternate between "fuck terfs!" and "I really vibe with the idea that masculinity is inherently evil and corrupts everything it touches"
You get the feeling that to some trans women the problem is not that terfs are bigots, but that they target trans women specifically.
Fascinating how so many of them have rejected bioessentialism to instead sort of gendered soul essentialism where a trans dude is the same as a cis man due to an evil male soul, but in a way that is still bioessentialist because somehow trans dude having biologically female parts is a moral failing because you have an evil male soul and therefore aren’t supposed to be affected by systemic misogyny, that’s something that’s supposed to happen to trans women because they have good female souls and therefore are incapable of misogyny because no woman has ever been sexist before.
To say that masculinity is a flawed construct that inflicts serious psychological damage to many in its current state is true. To say that femininity in comparison is liberatory and pure and the "superior option" for most or all of the people on the planet is nuclear cope. Just weapons-grade ideological myopia. Please put the phone down and only return to the conversation when you can deepen your analysis beyond "this thing is evil because it makes me personally feel bad, and this thing is pure because it makes me personally feel good".
" Kill all TMEs " Imagine if i said something like that. Imagine if someone said Kill All TMAs. Imagine if I or someone created a similar faulty term for us transmascs and told everyone else should be eradicated. You sound like a fascist. God you people need to get offline and start looking for the nearest bridges.
there is a massive difference between punching up and punching down
in the same way "kill all men" is very, very, different to "kill all women"
TRANS men. TRANS men. Don't fucking take that out. Don't make it sound like I could be talking about cis men. I'm talking about a marginalized group of men that keep on getting talked over and erased. Idk what you want me to tell you. Maybe when people stop telling that they want to kill all "TMEs" aka trans men, mascs, and nonbinary people I won't need to be saying outrageous shit like this. Maybe i wouldn't feel like i need to make these comparisons for people to actually get that telling an entire group of people is bad.
I stand by what I said and what I've been saying. Saying that an entire group of people, especially marginalized people, makes you sound like a fascist. Maybe. Just maybe.
And I'm not that retarded ok i know i kinda am but also i know it's different. duh. Because I know Cis men have that privilege that would make saying that not as severe as if you say it about women. But. If you really need to say shit like that say it. say cis men. because just men is vague. Because marginalized men exist. Trans men, intersex men, black men, disabled men..
But maybe it's nothing and I'm being just another dramatic whiny lil birthday boy. Maybe I'm getting too heated over nothing.
TME is ridiculously, overwhelmingly cis men and cis women. You're inserting the transness into the conversation, not us lmao.
And when people talk about men as a class, or TME people as a class, they mean that class of people. A disabled man still has male privilege, especially over disabled women. Same with black men, same with all the examples you list. A TME person always has the ability to deflect transmisogyny away from them and to further their status in the dominant system by perpetuating transmisogyny. That includes cisgender people to an extraordinary amount, and transgender people to a much much smaller portion. You, as a TME person, can leverage transmisogyny for your benefit, and are very much encouraged to do so by society. The people who are beneath you in the social hierarchy expressing frustration at the fact they're beneath you is not fascistic. Telling us to shut up and proposing the mainstream doctrine "kill all tmas" just shows yourself willing to be a part of that oppressor class all too readily. Because it is what the mainstream society wants to do with transfems. They want to kill us, and they view transmascs like yourself as our groomed victims into transgender ideology.
TME is ridiculously, overwhelmingly cis men and cis women. You're inserting the transness into the conversation, not us lmao.
Sure, Jan.
Does that trans man actually "want to be seen as a woman" or is he so afraid of being assaulted in men's spaces if he is outed that he will use women's spaces?
Does that trans man actually "want to be seen as a woman" or is he asking you not to erase his lived experience?
Does that trans man actually "want to be seen as a woman" or has he been scared by all the posts mocking male transition results into thinking he'll be a laughingstock if he starts balding?
Does that trans man actually "want to be seen as a woman" or has he seen masculine people be treated as inherently predatory so often that he holds this back to be seen as a person?
Does that trans man actually "want to be seen as a woman" or is he trying to avoid being treated the way you treat masculine people?
Does that trans man actually "want to be seen as a woman" or is his childhood still influencing how he conducts himself?
Does that trans man actually "want to be seen as a woman" or is he speaking about misogyny he has experienced?
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I think it's very telling that when we discuss threats to transmasc lives- like forced pregnancy- it is seen as a refutation if someone can counter by pointing out the non-life-threatening issues the same would create for trans women. And yet the lack of life-threatening consequences is NEVER seen as proof of trans men being oppressed, let alone as badly as trans women.
For example: if a trans woman says that the alt-right wants trans women dead, and a trans man pipes up that the alt-right wants trans men detransitioned, the trans man is inevitably told that he is still privileged, because merely being detransitioned is better than being dead. The fact that he could live at all in this scenario is a privilege trans men have over trans women.
And yet, when trans men point out that abortion bans could kill them, as pregnancy is quite literally a life-threatening event, trans women can say "this affects us too- someone could babytrap us!" and that is seen as enough to prove that trans men aren't actually the ones suffering from abortion bans more. The fact that trans women do not face any threat to life after being babytrapped is NOT seen as a privilege. And if you do succeed in making them drop the babytrapping issue, they'll instead say that they could be forced to detransition on the grounds that a child, quote, "needs a mother and a father." And here, detransitioning while staying alive is suddenly, magically, not a form of privilege held over someone who could die.
Transandrophobes are playing a never-ending game of Calvinball.
somebody apparently tried to get the Wikipedia page for discrimination against trans men deleted entirely because of the use of the word "transandrophobia". y'all are part of a fucking extremist hate group at this point. it's pride month and the government is killing us and you're actively trying to destroy documentation about trans people's discrimination? really? how fucking evil do you have to be to do this shit?
can we finally admit that these anti-transmasc people are part of a hate group? can we finally address this fucking problem and acknowledge it exists?
this behavior deserves to have this user's privileges fully revoked and banned from editing. or at least suspended. this is fucking ghoulish behavior.
it's one thing to make a bigoted remark, it's another thing entirely to suggest deletion of the fucking page. nowhere is that necessary, even if you were critiquing the word used itself.
oh!
Transandrophobes will be like "theyfab and birthday boy and transandrocunt and tdicktimized boy and pooner and zippertits aren't slurs, they're just disparaging words made to demean and humiliate a minority I don't like!"
I feel it’s poignant to state that a good amount of those terms either directly or indirectly bring attention to bodily features stereotypical of a trans guy.
I found out today that there was a (thankfully very ill-fated) attempt to have the entire Wikipedia article on discrimination against transgender men deleted. At first I thought the perpetrator was yet another bargain bin transphobe/TERF act of disruption but apparently not so, she is a trans woman. The user in question had been disputing the use of transandrophobia in the article as being inappropriate, but as other editors pointed out, the way in which it was used was as to be expected (basically saying “hey this term is being used commonly right now in places to describe this phenomena”). When attempts to get the article edited to remove any mention of the term failed, this user instead decided to just nominate the whole article for deletion instead. She even went as far as to say “you will never be a man” to the editors disputing this, though it was quickly deleted. It’s the actions of only a single person, but I find this indicative of how the chronic devaluing and othering of transmasculine people and voices in faux-transfeminist spaces leads to action basically indistinguishable from cis transphobes. Resorting to attempted vandalism of an online resource and blatant transphobia is a symptom of this trend that deserves absolutely no patience at this point.
Two trans men have been murdered since the beginning of the year, one has turned up dead in unclear circumstances and one is missing potentially dead, IN THE US ALONE, but nobody on here or anywhere online gives a single fuck. Nobody even talks about it. The main post about juniper blessing had 20k notes last i checked. Its not that i dont think people should talk about transmisogyny motivated murders - the opposite - but the fact that this type of violence gets so much attention everywhere online while the news about trans men/mascs’ death is dead in the water, is at this point too on the nose. It’s transparently an active effort, not just by society at large but by our own community, to silence us and bury the harm we are subject to in order to turn around and paint us as whiners witj no real problems.
rest in peace danny, lucas, murray. rest in peace sam. god bless you ansel wherever you are.
i wanted to respond to this with something hopeful, with something that doesn’t feel so desolate but. i am tired. and i am struggling with seeing a future where things are better, where we are not left behind.
so instead i will send you love anon, and to any trans man or masc who is reading this, and to any person who refuses to let our lives and needs and memories and rights fall by the wayside, anyone who gives the word comrade it’s weight . i love you, for whatever that means and however much it matters, i love you.
rest in love, to all the beautiful trans men and transmasculine people we have lost to senseless violence, to hopeless suicide, to the cruelty of neglect, each person a universe unto themselves, the universe that left as you did will always be missed.
endless love to juniper and erykah and dream. always. i just wish the light was shone on the memories equally. the light of remembrance is deserved, equally.
and lastly, a bowie quote for the road.
‘i am dying. you are dying. second by second. all is transient. does it matter? do i bother? yes. i do. life is fantastic. it never ends, it only changes. flesh to stone to flesh and ‘round and ‘round. best keep walking.’
let’s keep walking.
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"overwhelmingly transphobia at the moment targets trans women"
ok so no. while some aspects of transphobia (e.g. people talking on the news, articles, etc.) are focussed on trans women, most (e.g. physical violence, forced detransition, legal stuff, etc.) are not. they are focussed on all of us, but for some reason (aka because of the first part, the news and stuff) the only stuff that gets focussed on in discussions on the news and in articles etc. is transphobia against trans women. this does not mean trans men aren't going through the same fucking hell as trans women, it just means less people are sticking up for us against it.
i've said it once and i'll say it again IT IS NOT A PRIVILEGE TO DIE IN SILENCE
If you genuinely don't think TERFs go out of their way to specifically target trans men and transmascs at ALL it probably is because you're a fucking idiot who never, NOT ONCE IN YOUR FUCKING LIFE, have sat down with a trans man and actually sincerely had a conversation with him about his lived experience and how he interacts with feminist movements. I have never in my life met another trans guy who hasn't faced massive pushback, harassment, and demonization, from feminist people around him the moment he started identifying masculinely. There is also an extremely shocking, overwhelming amount of feminists, both cis and trans, who are happy to include trans women, but will violently aggressively react if we, as trans guys, ask to be included in their activism because the issues they speak on include us too. There is an entire MOVEMENT of feminists who specifically target trans men because they think we "deserve it"
So if I see you saying some shit like: "I don't think we should care about trans guys when talking about TERFs cause I just don't see trans guys get targeted by them!" I am going to assume you, yourself, ARE one of those trans exclusionary feminists who simply feels fine excluding marginalized people you don't personally relate to. If you STILL fucking think you "don't see trans guys get targeted" DO NOT MAKE ME TAP THE FUCKING SIGN VVVVVVVVVV
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
ALL cisgender perisex people have privilege over ALL transgender intersex and nonbinary people. end of discussion.
The thing that has me scratching my head in confusion about the recent wave of "trans men are invading women's spaces" rhetoric from TRFs is that I thought we were in agreement that the very concept of "men's spaces" and "women's spaces" was a load of crap. I thought we were in agreement that bathrooms should be marked "bathroom with a urinal" and "bathroom without a urinal" instead of "men's" and "women's." I thought we agreed that healthcare should never be gender segregated regardless. I thought we were in agreement that everything called a "woman's space" was just blatantly being exaggerated as a tool of exclusion.
Further, why are you using these arguments that were invented by TERFS when you know these will inevitably be weaponized against you too? Do you really think you can rehabilitate concepts made to hurt YOU and turn them into a weapon against just the people you hate? Like even if you can't be a decent enough human being to care about transmascs, you could at least have an ounce of self-preservation and realize this is helping TERFs to hurt YOU, not just the trans men you want dead!
I think part of the ''why'' is that people think conservatism is a character flaw. People think ''people become conservative because they are bad and cruel and I'M not like that! I would never be like that!"
Why are trans people turning so TERFy when we seemingly agreed that this was all bad? Well, everything is getting more conservative, on account of the climate/environmental crisis and the related decay of capitalism and the rise of fascism as a response. People are scared animals and it is so easy to adjust to this environment by internalizing it, in hopes of surviving it.
With trans people getting turned into a scapegoat and neo-radfems getting massive political platforms, it was inevitable that people would react by internalizing radical feminism and trying to cut out the parts of themselves and their community that are least able to adjust to that. I think its a semi-conscious process of trying to blend in, trying to survive, trying to make sense of what is happening to you and why. Each person has a lot of different preexisting beliefs they are working with to make sense of the world, and we aren't consciously self-aware of most of them. What seems obvious to one person (you cannot rehabilitate radical feminism for trans people, because it is fundamentally structured through cissexism) will not be obvious to another if they are navigating the same issue with a different "map" so to speak.
Survival instincts are not necessarily moral instincts. Resisting conservative, fascism, etc. are not things that always feel conducive to surviving this present moment, especially for people whose worldviews did not have a developed and strong understanding of what resistance and revolution would mean in practice, how the circumstances would feel, and the kinds of material and ideological forces at play.
I think a lot of people are getting more conservative because they are falling back on survival instincts and trying to adapt to an increasingly conservative environment. But, at the same time, they don't think of themselves as conservative, nor do they want to be, and they want their survival instincts to be moral instincts (as I think we would all like!) and that the things they are doing to keep themself safe are also things that are morally correct and effective responses to injustice.
And again, people want conservatism to simply be the product of a character flaw they are better than, not something that anyone can fall into ideologically as a result of both personal choices and belief-environment. We want it to be that becoming a conservative is a conscious process we would certainly be fully aware of if it happened to us. If we could become conservative, either conservatism must be objectively right, or it means that "conservative" is not a unique class of people entirely different than oneself and the left as a whole.
And people are very bad at doing worldview work under stress when feeling unsafe and also trying not to become homeless or starve to death. So we end up in these kinds of situations.
ya sure about that?
all of these people claim that transandrophobia isnt real, and claim that trans men aren't oppressed / are less oppressed than trans women (and cis women apparently???)
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
ANYONE who tells you to "just DIY T" or "just ask a gym bro", and who does not present this as a high-risk activity that can result in you going to jail or being physically assaulted, is a fed until proven otherwise.
"ask a gym bro" is bad advice but like. you can use drugs. lots of people use drugs. there is a risk, sure, but i would not say using T is a high-risk activity. it's (at this stage) low-risk. frankly using legal, prescribed T is risky if you're in certain states, so lets not act like DIY is particularly dangerous or risky. if you smoke weed you do something as illegal/dangerous as using DIY T. risk analysis is good but fearmongering is not. depending on where you live and who you live with, DIY may be more or less safe, but they are not rounding up body builders for doping. trans people have been doing DIY literally for decades and arrests are very rare. using a public restroom in Florida is probably riskier than DIY HRT lol.
T is significantly more illegal than weed in places where weed is decriminalized. furthermore, even obtaining clean injection supplies can be hard or risky without a prescription, because many states restrict those as well. trafficking/possession with intent to sell is also usually a felony so if you are distributing it to your friends that's worth considering as well. in New York State and several other places it is classified as a Schedule II despite the federal government classifying it as Schedule III meaning the penalties can include significant jail time.
you're also not considering the fact that police are disproportionately targeting trans people because they view us as a threat, unlike bodybuilders. I could totally see this administration deciding out of the blue that the DEA is going to start doing crackdowns on illegal T possession, as they have every legal ability to do. I'm not trying to say "comply in advance" here but what I am trying to say is, there is no reason to believe you are safe.
above all, if you do DIY T you should NOT talk about it online. don't talk about crimes you do online in general, honestly, but especially not that - separate from how moronic it would be to incriminate yourself like that, we don't need more attention drawn to the practice. we don't need to give them a reason to do crackdowns. so yeah, encouraging other people to do DIY T is definitely fucking fed behavior.
I just think that telling a demographic trans people, (a broad demographic of people who are explicitly marginalized and oppressed because they transition from one assigned gender identity to another more fitting gender identity), that they aren't actually oppressed on the basis of their gender identity because they "choose" to be the Bad Oppressor gender, is like. blatantly transphobic.
No matter what way you try to frame it that's what this discourse boils down to. It's an attempt to define a demographic of queer people out of the queer experience, just like every other instance of reactionary transmed and radfem infiltrated discourse targeted at a demographic of queer people on this website in the last decade and a half.
