Looking for a good post on why we should just let Solas tear down the Veil. I'm just interested in the perspective.
I know I saw a few arguments for this maybe a couple weeks back. But I have no idea where they went or who wrote them.
I have a whooooole laundry list of reasons I want to lay out in text but I did a (ever so slightly salty) TikTok about it a couple weeks ago, and that’s here.
What could Thedas look like without the Veil if we didn’t view it through a lens of fear?
But in short:
1. It is the natural state of the world, a bit like if we’d built a dome between us and the sun for millennia as an extremely imperfect and basic metaphor
2. Spirits are people who belong with flesh-based people; the veil’s existence harms them and also prevents them from strengthening society. Probably half the population of the world are spirits, maybe more, and the veil is unjust to them for its mere existence AND because when they get forced through it, it twists them against their nature in torturous pain and then flesh people kill them or they kill each other. No good for anyone.
3. It is a fallacy based on Chantry hysteria and the games being in themselves unreliable narrators for the predominant narrative they give us to believe that we’d be “drowning in demons” because
4. The Breach and the rifts and general tattered state of the veil is not indicative of what a world without the veil would look like. Those are closer to what would happen to fish in an ocean-sized sphere if you punched holes in it and they got violently wrenched through with the force of escaping water; if they didn’t get forced through something traumatic, they’re far, far less likely to be twisted against their purpose. A world without the veil is an ocean. They can just…swim.
5. We have a number of canonical, profound examples of symbiotic coexistence even with the veil in place (the Avvar especially but also Rivain, the Mourn Watch to an extent) where even with the veil causing a barrier to understanding, spirits and the people who respect and care for them can exist peacefully and successfully together
6. As evidenced by Dorian’s letter to the Divine in codex, it’s really only the Southern Chantry lands where abominations and possession are even an issue, in large part because they’re the absolute kings of self-fulfilling prophecy. They teach that magic is dangerous and that all spirits want us to possess you so naturally they get what they expect.
7. Even in the Southern Chantry, the first Inquisitor, Ameridan, had a “spirit companion” he speaks of casually, either a spirit that stayed with him or consensually possessed him in the way of young Avvar mages (not clear which) so even down south, it wasn’t always just AAAA DEMONS DEMONS BAD
8. The Frostback Basin, if you bring Solas and Cole, you learn that it is remarkable for having virtually NO veil. So threadbare Cole says he could “skate right across”. There are spirits everywhere, and they’re far more peaceable than the bloody human Jaws of Hakkon lmao. Also some fascinating evidence here that killing malign spirits like Hakkon himself allows them to reconfigure themselves into less twisted form when they’re reborn
9. We have plenty of evidence even with the veil that spirits like to help. The spirits of Compassion/Undying Hope we meet in VG despite the Venatori doing everything they can to make things worse. Solas mentions his host of spirits ready to help, and you’re free to believe him or not, but that has *always* been his MO. Spirits eager to reunite with the world in peace. They are fundamentally his people as much as the ancient elves are; I’ll trust what he says about spirits above what anyone else does.
10. The primary argument for me for the veil staying in place was the imprisoned Evanuris and the blight and now…they’re dead and the blight is less of a threat for not having their direction. Also better contained. People can find proactive solutions now instead of reactive ones.
11. Mages should be taught their magic is a gift and not a curse, how to work with spirits and not see every single one as a potential threat or an object to be exploited. It’s not something that could happen overnight but it’s far less likely to happen at all with the veil in place because I shudder to think of how the backlash of Veilguard is going to increase already unconscionable acts of genocide (annulment of mage circles by Templars we’ve had in every game but VG—though Rowan speaks of Dairsmuid—and purges on alienages and Dalish clans) against mages and elves so once more those who suffer the most will suffer more
12. Maybe if Solas’s original plan had gone forwards and he’d just torn down the veil with the orb and Corypheus had died as expected, everything would have been violent, terrible, and bloody. But that’s not Veilguard Solas, influenced by the Inquisition and his friends there whom he loved and taught him that there was life worth preserving in Thedas. So I truly believe that, with the mitigation he’d put in place that the writers didn’t see fit to like…share with the class beyond a few throwaway lines that it would not have been the nightmare Varric was screeching about. Minrathous at the beginning was probably the worst of it, because fish were getting wrenched backwards through holes, not just free to enter and exist and swim without violence. That would have ended when the veil was down, judging by everything we’ve seen evidence of. Now we will likely never know.
Anyway! I wrote out a whole thing I guess. I want it better organised and sourced than bullet points, but it’s something, at least. Hope it helps! Bottom line is there’s a lot we don’t know, but the only actual real canon example of a nearly veil-less world we have to go on is the Avvar and the Frostback Basin, and if that’s somewhere near what’s possible? I’m in.
Loss of life happens either way. I guess it just depend on whose lives matter to the one deciding. I personally think the end result of allowing the world to exist in its natural, veil-less state would ultimately be better for everyone.
Looking at Earth right now, we’re facing similar questions and honestly, similar strategy: keep the harmful status quo even though those who already suffer the most have the most to lose with climate change, then punish them when they come to safer places to seek help.
Thank you for this. It's very interesting and measured. It's just what I was hoping for, which is an argument from the perspective of Thedas and the universe, and, as a fiction writer, what I would call the "handwaving" tendencies of this whole thing. I never understood how anyone could actually know what it would mean to take down the Veil, other than Solas. I always assumed I was just missing something, but you've made it clear that I am, in fact, not. It literally is just that "handwaved."
I also am so glad you mention Ameridan and Jaws of Hakkon as I find Ameridan to be so interesting, as a character who believed in both the elven gods and the Maker, and also who had a spirit companion. The Ameridan/Telana romance, and Ameridan's whole tragic plight in which he bound himself to a god for 800 years, disappearing without a trace and leaving his beloved dreamer to die awaiting his return, has, to me, always foiled the thematic points of Solavellan. I love that whole DLC because the environment is extremely strange and beautiful, and I do remember how often it was mentioned that the Veil was basically as thin as tissue. Even Sera comments on it. If you bring both her and Solas, he asks her if she can feel how thin it is, and at first she bristles as usual, but then she sort of...drifts off...lost in the strangeness. I hadn't thought to link it to what the world might be like without the Veil, so this is very good.
My perspective on this has changed over the years, and so this is why I'm seeking out alternate theories. Today I am bringing my point of view, which is based mostly around the characterization of Solas. I used to think the only catharsis worthy of his character would be for him to make a choice to live in the new world, which he created, as a mortal man. Like sleeping in the bed you make, and that the very act of choosing a "normal" life is what would make him happy. But this was before I knew about the whole Mythal thing, and about the fact that he would have to bind himself to the Veil using his own blood. While I will admit there IS a narrative catharsis in there somewhere, I am torn, because I think that, essentially Solas, as a sort of monstrous character who is grappling desperately with his desire to be loved for who he is, has suffered enough.
On that note, one thing I've noticed in my second playthrough of Veilguard is that the dialogue choices for Rook in the Fade are persistently obstinate to Solas's finer points and show a lack of compassion overall. I usually play as compassionate characters in these games. I played as a very compassionate Lavellan, and this is why, when it comes to the romance angle, I have been drawn to other compassionate characters, like Solas and Emmrich. Rook displays a persistent unwillingness to lend Solas any sort of benefit of the doubt during their conversations, despite only knowing what Varric has told her, and while I do like Varric, I think he displays a fundamental misunderstanding of what Solas is trying to do. I think that Rook is trying to appear strong in front of Fen'Harel, and so I tend to forgive her, but she would have been better off talking to Dorian or Inquisitor Lavellan, in addition to Varric, in order to get a more informed perspective on Solas's situation. Even Morrigan defends Solas's decision to build the Veil, as she says that the world would have drowned in the blight without it, essentially casting Solas as a savior in his own flawed right. Despite this, it does seem that no matter what, the writers of Veilguard are EXTREMELY reluctant to allow Rook to sympathize with him in an open manner.
This is true for all of the companions, btw, except for Davrin, who is the only one that vocalizes support for Solas's decisions during the rebellion at all. He does this during one of the Regrets quest meetings, and it was such a rare revelation, to hear someone basically say, "I get what he did, and I agree with it," that on my first playthrough, I thought Davrin was perhaps an undercover Agent of Fen'Harel. The rest of the companions are either overly hostile toward Solas (at worst) or simply display zero thoughts on the matter (at best). It feels as if (some of) the writers are actively trying to get us to work against him by making it impossible for Rook to agree with him, even as he is clearly the most interesting, layered character in the franchise. Most players, in my experience, sympathize with Solas on a personal level, even if they do not sympathize with his desire to tear down the Veil.
It feels to me like a battle of the wills in the writer's room, as half the writing wants us to feel deeply for Solas and his tragic plight with Mythal, and the other half wants us to see him as just this devious, asshole villain. In Solavellan, we are of course capable of doing both lol, and so I have cherished our perspective on the matter. In observing Rook's behavior with Solas in the Fade, which lacks a dynamic range of choices, it seems to me that there is a fear that Solas may actually be TOO convincing on his own, and that the game must work against him in order to "complicate" him as a Bad Guy. I think his character IS too strong, and it overpowers all of that, seemingly without trying. I am eager to agree with him on all counts, granted I am shameless in that way, but I think that many players, especially players new to the franchise, would have at least benefited from a greater understanding of his plan. It felt, in some ways, like a great deprivation.
Something I've noticed, too, is this pattern with Solas's behavior, and his treatment, mainly: this willingness of others to milk him for wisdom when it suits their needs, but to disregard his concerns when they become too inconvenient, or when they are simply based on his personal outlook on the world. Rook goes to Solas for advice and guidance but then will not commit to trusting him or endeavor to try and understand his personal motivations at all. Why? Why would you trust someone to give you tactical advice whilst remaining unwilling to entertain their personal perspectives on the world? Even if you disagree with them. This is actually the exact premise of the book Silence of the Lambs, in which Agent Clarice Starling seeks guidance from cannibal Hannibal Lector in her pursuit of a serial killer. She visits him in a mental institution, separated by bulletproof glass with a huge chip on her shoulder, projecting herself with great authority at first, but over time, she finds herself opening up to him, even sympathizing with him, not in overt ways, but in small ways, which come about when he shows her a small amount of compassion, or when he sees into her soul in ways that others cannot, and they realize how, in some distant, allegorical landscape, they are the same. (Aside: The plot of Veilguard is, I think, when taken in a vacuum, very good. It's a unique perspective taken from many old tropes, but it is simply not executed with gravitas, in my opinion.)
Returning to the pattern, in which characters take advantage of Solas without entertaining his point of view: Mythal was the grand master of all this. She exploited his wisdom for her causes, and then the moment he, himself, developed a cause of his own, she ridiculed and shamed him, as if he had betrayed her. Lavellan, however, breaks the pattern. She goes to Solas simply to talk, to get to know him, which shocks him, that someone would simply enjoy spending time with him, or that they might want him for who he is rather than for what he can do. He falls desperately in love with her, which is a testament to how parched for support he has been in his life, despite his extraordinary utility as a tool for knowledge.
What I'm getting at is this: In my second playthrough, and given all the information I have, I think that Solas is probably the only person we can trust to actually make this decision about the Veil, and while I am not entirely sold on the purity of his motivations, because they are all mixed up with Mythal and a great deal of psychological damage, I want to hear him out, and I agree that, based on everything that's happened in the last two games, and the shaky question of Solas's mortality, the falling of the Veil is actually inevitable, and that maybe we should have just let Solas do it his way, as gently as possible. However, it seems that the writers, or at least SOME of them, are unwilling to let us even so much as entertain Solas's point of view, because I think there was a certain fear that too many players would have agreed with him. It's almost as if they wrote themselves into a corner with Solas. They made him TOO interesting, too convincing, but then they realized that they were ultimately unwilling (or perhaps unable) to see all that through to its natural end. I understand, in some ways, as the game seemed extraordinarily difficult to get off the ground. It makes me wonder what could have been, so of course, I am thankful for fan fiction and fan perspectives at this time, and I'll just continue to enjoy the game for what it is: fun as hell to play, sort of preposterous in some ways, but with enriched environments and personal quests, and a "good" ending for the ship of my life.
In the end, and because I need to stop rambling, this is my basic takeaway: When Lavellan says to Rook, straight to her face, "There was a time I would have followed [Solas] anywhere," I believe that maybe Rook should trust her, as she knows Solas better than anyone. If she was ready to follow him to the ends of the earth and the destruction of the Veil ten years ago, and she loves him to this day, and she is, in fact, as heroic as they say she is, then well, maybe she had a good reason.
I have little to add except to, with every ounce of the Solavellan heart that beats in my chest, agree with what you’ve said here. You’ve articulated the underpinning of my quick bullet points.
I mentioned this in another post yesterday, but I’m struck by Solas’s own words about (somewhat ironically) his own characterisation in DAI:
Liar. Fool. Madman. There are endless ways to say someone isn’t worth listening to. Over time, it grinds away at you.
To have him gain his freedom from Mythal only to be bound again to the veil is something I will probably need several hundred thousand words of fic to process. I always wished I could help him. My Ilaana has spent a decade doing all she can to do just that.
At least he and Lavellan have one another, and it’s very likely she will now live as long as he will. Perhaps someday they can realise the world of dreams.
Perhaps someday someone will listen to Wisdom.
I love and agree with all of this! But none of this even mentions the potential immortality and universal magic of it all? Like one of Solas’ biggest hang ups is death itself. Why do people die now? They never did before. He tells the Inquisitor that their immortality was merely a side effect of all the free flowing magic. Maybe modern people die because they’re not really people, they lack the immortality of spirits, he thinks at first. Dying alone being Solas’ biggest fear is interesting in this light. But Solas is SO afraid of death that he never even considered killing any of the Evanuris for what they had done. No they deserve eternal prison. No one ever deserves death! The crime that drove him over the edge into locking the Evanuris away? They killed Mythal. Sure, she would survive in fragments because you can’t truly kill a spirit but still. The Grey Wardens want to hunt and kill the Old Gods? Complete insanity! His line to Varric in Veilguard sticks with me, “People are always dying. It is what they do.” But they didn’t used to. Not when the veil wasn’t keeping magic away from everyone. Everyone could wield magic unless they had been sundered from the Fade, made tranquil. I think Solas believes that tearing down the veil would restore immortality and magic to everyone, at the very least to the elves.
Anyway, I just like thinking about how an immortal creature would find death so incredibly repulsive and unnecessary, so I wanted to add that angle to this brilliant analysis thread!
