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@verlake
the kiss

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Out of Touch Thursday
The other wolf was at my side. I felt its teeth rip into my breeches. — The Vampire Lestat, Anne Rice
buying myself a tshirt that says 'i understand that the term sex work is originally linked to a labor rights movement and from what i can see it has moved into being used as a general term describing a broad range of ways that people sell sex, consensually or otherwise. i could be wrong on this, however this is how it is used in sources i've read. i understand that using the term sex work flattens some of this nuance, however the nuance is informing my thoughts nonetheless. i do not think children can consent to sex or labor of any kind. i do not think that being forced/sold into sex work means that you consent to it, even if it is referred to as work. i have read the vampire lestat novel a minimum of 20 times. i do not think he consented to being allegorically kidnapped, raped and murdered by an older male vampire, despite the parallel allusions to the fact that sex work in 18th century paris was explicitly linked to acting/theatre work.'
back of the tshirt says "none of the ideas or understandings on the front of this tshirt change when i engage with and enjoy the sensual/sexy elements of the dead dove content and taboo that's part of this series btw.'

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jeremy irons greatest hits compilation
Calavera (1883 / óleo sobre cartón) - Joaquin Sorolla
Phantom +1 ....... Carlotta -1
By Michelle Avery Konczyk
Tumblr's Top Catholic (Bracket 3, Round 2) Louis de Pointe du Lac vs. Harrowhark Nonagesimus
Louis de Pointe du Lac
Harrowhark Nonagesimus

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Judith Disrupting Holofernes - Gentileschi x Corporate Illustration - killpony, 2021 (originally posted to reddit)
by all means. but also by all niceys
buying myself a tshirt that says 'i understand that the term sex work is originally linked to a labor rights movement and from what i can see it has moved into being used as a general term describing a broad range of ways that people sell sex, consensually or otherwise. i could be wrong on this, however this is how it is used in sources i've read. i understand that using the term sex work flattens some of this nuance, however the nuance is informing my thoughts nonetheless. i do not think children can consent to sex or labor of any kind. i do not think that being forced/sold into sex work means that you consent to it, even if it is referred to as work. i have read the vampire lestat novel a minimum of 20 times. i do not think he consented to being allegorically kidnapped, raped and murdered by an older male vampire, despite the parallel allusions to the fact that sex work in 18th century paris was explicitly linked to acting/theatre work.'
I’m going to respectfully share the issue is Lestat didn’t take on Magnus as a client, as is being implied by your meta (which is incredibly well written otherwise and I enjoyed the part about gender). We don’t actually know who Lestat’s clients were, but we know he was taken by force by Magnus because that arrangement was not consensual. This is effectively like if a stranger walked into a sex worker’s place of employment, was rejected for an appointment, raped them anyway, then tried to pay them afterwards to claim it was a consensual arrangement. I do think this is where a lot of the discourse came from, but I don’t wish to stir anything further and wish people would be kinder.
hello anon.
i don't think i saw anyone raise this point at the time?
anyway, my aim with the thread was to draw the comparison with what was a socially understood practice in the world of 18th century paris and lestat's backstory, not to suggest that lestat did definitely engage in any type of sex work (canon does not suggest he did) or that his time with magnus was consensual (it categorically isn't and isn't presented that way in the series or the book.)
patron-courtesean relationships were always coercive to a degree, as the courtesan's financial security, living arrangements and their potential to find another patron willing to enter into an agreement with them all depended on keeping their current patron happy with their services, as well as maintaining their popularity as a public figure and actress/actor to keep up interest in their prestige.
lestat himself has an extremely complex understanding of what happened between him and magnus, and the book passages are extremely harrowing and visceral in the description of it. i am fully aware that it's not a consensual relationship they talked about and agreed to beforehand, as a real courtesan and patron would. as a side note, i'm sure strangers did do that (and still do that) to sex workers.
all of this speaks more to armand's motives in describing what happened to lestat by using loaded terms like patronised and tarted-up as i mention in the thread. in the book, the theatre lestat works at (first as a janitor/dogsbody, before he gets on-stage roles) is much smaller, and would be unlikely to attract the aristocratic clientelle that would be able to offer him that type of patronage, which only calls into question version of events we've seen from armand's pov even more.
all this to say, the intention of the thread was to simply draw the parallel, not to suggest it's indisputable canon (we won't know until s3, but the book does not suggest actual sex work at all). it's just another interesting aspect of 18th century parisian society that lestat, as a character, has a connection to through his theatre work that i wanted to share.

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Hi! I saw you made a post on twitter about the actor/sex worker thing in regards to IWTV/Lestat and I really wanted to read it because I find it so interesting, but I can’t read it on there (I’m assuming because fandom weirdos decided to be weird about it. I don’t interact on twitter I’m just a ghosty lurker because it’s too rough there for me). I’ve read Trick of the Light and it’s one of my fav fics atm, and the whole idea around it is so interesting and I’d love to find out more. Could you post it here possibly please? I just want to be a bit nerdy. (I totally understand if you don’t want to though because of ✨discourse✨)
hello!!
no stress, i am more than happy to repost it here for you. the discourse was not as bad as i thought it would be, at least in terms of what i received personally, so never fear. plus making known terfs unhappy for like two days was extremely fun and healing for my shrivelled soul lmao.
i'm going to link the two fantastic sources i used first, because they are the experts and are much better at painting a fuller picture of sex work in 18th century paris in all its facets than i am.
i used this incredible article by audrey reiss titled: l'opéra-comique et les maisons de débauche: prostitution and power in mid-eighteenth century paris
and this specific betwixt the sheets podcast ep: sex work in 18th century paris (i love this podcast so much, i'm working through the entire back catalogue. keeps me sane at work.)
please check them out if you have a chance and would like to do some extra reading! they're so good.
and now here is the thread:
happy reading, and happy learning!!
do u have any sources that show male theatre actors were also sought out by french elite for sexual favours like some female actresses were?
I don't know of any male theatre actors off the top of my head, but cavalier serventes were what you called male courtesans in this era of France, and they were absolutely A Thing (in fact, funnily enough, the poet, Lord Byron was one to Teresa, Contessa Guiccioli in Italy, so you could reasonably posit that some cavalier serventes were heavily entangled with the arts). In that sense, we do know a bit more about the cavalier serventes who were kept by aristocratic women than the ones who were kept by aristocratic men, and in fact the only ones we know of were really high ranking ones like the boys King Henry III kept as his 'mignons' (although that was the 1500s, not the 1700s).
Homosexuality was illegal in this era of France's history, although it was actually decriminalised during the French Revolution in 1789, and as it was punishable by death, there was a lot more secrecy around it so we do have less information about male sex work generally, although historians all agree there was a lot of it in Paris. Here's a quote from Sex in Eighteenth Century Paris:
Paris was home to a diverse permissive sexual culture. It was comprised of a portion of the financial, social, political, and intellectual elite, often identified as libertines, for whom sex outside marriage was both widespread and widely accepted. It also included men who had sex with each other as part of Paris’s extensive sodomitical subculture, though there is little evidence of a modern homosexual identity. Prostitution was endemic in Paris, encompassing numerous forms of transactional sex that translated into a sort of hierarchy, with women kept as mistresses by men of the elite at the top and those catering to marginal men at the bottom.
As a result, we know there were male sex workers operating at every level of the sex work hierarchy (street walkers, brothel workers, courtesans/cavalier serventes), but the records of it are harder to unpick than it is with women who were kept more publicly. In fact, one of the best records we have of how many gay brothels there were (and again, it seems like there was a lot) was because Marquis de Sade wrote about them and his sexual exploits in them in between his stays in prison.
Regardless though, I actually kind of think it's irrelevant in the context of talking about TVL? Anne wasn't writing historical non-fiction, she was writing the female gothic which was a very established subgenre of literature by the time she wrote it, and while looking at the historical context is really important in understanding what she was doing, especially with a writer as knowledgeable and well-researched as Anne, that historical context isn't applied on a 1:1 level.
As an author of the female gothic, Anne's writing prioritises female terrors and anxiety - that's what the genre is - but she does that through writing male characters experiencing traumas most often associated with women - rape, domestic violence, gaslighting, forced sex work, forced pregnancy, abduction, etc. Lestat, Louis and Armand's respective experiences and victimisation don't make them female characters, but their victimisation is relatable to women readers and accessible to Anne as an author because they're most often associated as female terrors. The characters are tools for exploring themes, just as real history is, gosh, just as vampirism is. I believe Anne knew about the relationship between sex work and acting in this chapter of history, she probably did understand it to be something that mostly affected women, and she thought 'what if it happened to Lestat?' anyway.
That's just how we write fiction, y'know?
if anyone is genuinely interested in information pertaining to this subject… here's this from a book edited by jeffrey merrick:
there's also this from "homosexuality in french history and culture" by jeffrey merrick and michael sibalis:
"The world of theater and opera, finally, has always attracted devotees of good-looking boys. If Monvel, Fleury, and Lekain himself were known at the French Theater for their marked taste for men, the corridors of the Italian Theater and the Opera were full of attractive males. The actor Michu of the Italian Theater had such a 'pretty face' that Grimod de La Reynière went on and on about him. 'You know that when he was almost fifty years old he still played the roles of Colin with all the charm, levity, and graciousness imaginable and that the youngest actors, those who had been most favored by nature, were outshined by his physical attractions. Yes, by his physical attractions. You must pardon me for using that word.' Michu's face did not seem to be altogether that of a man, and anyone who saw him dressed like a shepherdess would have been completely fooled by his disguise. The Jewish banker Peixotto, who reportedly had the Italian taste and some unusual fantasies, did not mistake Michu for a girl when he gave him the generous sum of a thousand louis 'to spend the night with him.' Other actors were also subjects of conversation, like Michu's colleagues Raymond, Granger, Dorsonville, and Solié, who, in order to not disappoint their female admirers, flaunted liaisons with pretty actresses. […] The Italian taste was very well represented in theatrical circles, which traditionally functioned as a breeding ground from which wealthy aristocrats like d'Aigrefeuille and the Venetian ambassador Zeno supplied themselves."