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I just finished the expanded section of The Roottrees are Dead, and it reminded me of an idea that I've had kicking around forever. This will not spoil either of those games, but it'll spoil some of what it feels like to play those games.
In Obra Dinn you're an insurance agent attempting to figure out what happened on the titular ship, filling in a logbook with names and fates based on what you see in the past. It's a lot of fun, I highly recommend it.
In The Roottrees are Dead, you're an inspector or a genealogist or something, filling in the Roottree family tree, using your 1990s internet connection to comb through periodicals and books from the library and half-finished websites. It's a lot of fun, I highly recommend it.
Anyway, the idea came after I'd first played Obra Dinn, and thought to myself "wow, they should make like a million more of these" and then started thinking about what the low-hanging fruit was.
Here, you're trying to fill out a yearbook.
There are a bunch of names and pictures, and yes, there's a full grid, but there are also pages with the various clubs, and other pictures of life at school, and it's your job to complete basically full dossiers on at least the most interesting of the kids, with some of the less interesting ones reduced to "easy" puzzles.
And the mechanism of doing this? Teenaged text messages, poorly composed cell phone shots, a handful of websites, all the digital ephemera. This absolutely works best in the early 2000s, when our social media was fractured and you would naturally get a lot of variety, but the idea is to have a lot of variety and texture to what the player gets to sift through, whether it's AOL Instant Messenger, the robotics team's amateurish website, or a bunch of text messages.
Who are these people, how do they relate to each other? All the answers are out there for you to find and record, and you get to know these people in the process of unraveling everything.
One of the things to consider, in this sort of detective game, is how you open up new information to the player, because at least some of the information is going to be just sitting there, waiting to be entering, with the journey to get to the data source the thing that was most interesting about it.
And I think in this case, maybe the thing that you're slowly gaining access to is phones.
Early 2000s is a transitional era, so maybe you have iPhone equivalents living alongside Blackberry equivalents and Nokia bricks and flip phones and all those sorts of things, and you gain access to them one by one, for those who have one, or maybe their computers. I'm a little on the fence about the best way to do this, but having a picture of a phone/computer would at least be funny way to do it, so you're combing through pictures not just for the people and information contained in them, but for someone whose phone you've never seen before, since that will magically/technologically allow you to read all their messages.
And if you're looking through someone's phone, there are mysteries to solve there, cryptic conversations to unravel. There are aliases. You get a conversation that you know must be important, but the name is saved as just "T-Dog", and that could be anyone! And you have to wander through solving all these little issues, trying to decrypt the local dialect of emoji use, figuring out the timeline for when this guy was dating three girls to see whether he cheated or not. You can realize that someone was being catfished!
The thing that I like most about these games is that you have such great opportunities for organic storytelling, having a guy who you get to know from having seen him in a few places, forming a picture of people from the scraps you can see. And here, there's a high school's worth of personalities to unfold, to get your stereotypes corrected, to have thundering revelation after revelation, and all the ambiguity that crops up where the digital realm doesn't allow you to see the full truth.
I'm picturing 50 or so students, a graduating class that's small, maybe a tiny college town in the Midwest where there's a mix of the students of professors and farmers and lots of variety in terms of class, a place with homecoming and prom and sports teams and all that kind of thing. And somewhere in the early 2000s seems good in terms of what it brings to the table. Am I exactly describing my own small Midwestern hometown and the time period when I was going to high school? I mean, yeah. But I do think that's the best for gameplay purposes.
This is one of those things that I really would like to just throw a few years of my life at making. It calls to me. But while I have the programming skills necessary to figure out that end of things, and I'm a good writer, it would also call for a lot of art and UI design that would be extremely unfun and detail-oriented in a way that does not suit me. Why must we have finite lifespans?
(I think the very first time I noodled this idea, it was with supernatural elements, a single giant party that you would spend your time unpacking, one with cultists and sadists and things from the deep, all kinds of calamities killing these teenagers off, with the player being a supernatural inspector coming in after the fact. And this would ape Obra Dinn more closely, but calls to me a bit less.)
Had these in store for a while now, ever since I finished "Return of the Obra Dinn".
Let me tell you, as someone who grew up loving pirates and sailing ships, I was immediately hooked. On top of having a beautiful atmosphere and aesthetic, the game is magnificent in terms of design, mechanics and engagement!
Games I Have Seen People Compare To Return of the Obra Dinn, ranked
So. Many, many people love Return of the Obra Dinn (correct), and want to keep playing games like that bc it is a finite experience once the mystery is solved. Understandable. Same here.
I have seen a wide variety of games recommended, reviewed, rated, or remarked on as being "Obra Dinn-like" or "in the same vein" or "scratches the same itch".
Usually, this refers to a game with a mystery that includes note-taking and paperwork, with an empty framework of some kind that you have to fill out completely in order to solve it and win. But also some people will say anything.
So I made a list of all the ones I've heard of, along with short descriptions, and whether or not I think the comparison makes sense. I was going to do links for all of them but I fear tumblr will eat them, so I just linked the top tier ones.
Feel free to respond with more! I make no guarantees, but I might look into it, and at the very least people can do their own research on it. ^v^
disclaimer: I love Return of the Obra Dinn. It's a fantastic game, and it does a lot of other cool things that have nothing to do with the notebook-mystery element. The atmosphere? The art style? The sound design? The horrors of the ocean at war with the horrors of your fellow man? Fantastic stuff. These are not the things people are generally talking about when they make these comparisons though, so I will limit my rhapsodies to this. Also, obviously, whether a game is similar to or different then Return of the Obra Dinn is completely separate from whether it is a good game or not.
First: What is an "Obra-Dinn-like"?
I saw @miniaturegiantspacerat use the term "notebook mystery" once in a reply to a post, and I think it fits really well. It's a mystery game where you are gathering information, taking notes, putting together a pepe-sylvia-style conspiracy board of some kind, and/or filling out a form of some kind (for instance, a notebook). The main game loop is looking for clues, writing stuff down, looking for clues, writing stuff down, until the game confirms some of the things you wrote, and now you can use that info to figure more stuff out.
I also think there are lots of games out there that you can/need to take notes about, or that have in-game note-taking systems, and not all of them are "Obra-Dinn-like." We will call these "note-taking games" to distinguish them from "notebook mysteries" or "Obra-Dinn-likes."
Criteria for a notebook mystery:
"notebook" - there has to be a form, framework, or empty space that you are filling up. In Obra Dinn, it's your trusty journal, which you're filling up with names, pictures, & fates. In others, it doesn't have to be a literal notebook.
"mystery" - there has to be a central mystery you are solving. it doesn't have to be the same one all throughout, but there should always be a question that needs answering, up until the end. you can leave the story open-ended if you want to, but there should be a "completed" state of the game.
confirmation - at intervals, the game should confirm parts you've filled in. e.g. In Obra Dinn, every 3 fates you filled in correctly, it would confirm.
notes - it doesn't have to be in-game, but it should be the kind of game where you have to (or at least can) take notes about what's going on. I don't know where I'd be in my Obra Dinn playthrough if I didn't have my notes on what people look like and where they are and what they're doing.
vibes, aka The Feeling You Get While Playing The Game.
Here's the ranks
A tier - Yes, it is correct or fitting to compare this game to Return of the Obra Dinn, and I know because I've played it or watched a full playthrough
The Roottrees Are Dead - Note: the free-to-play original version uses some AI generated images, but they came out with a version on Steam that has full illustrations, a more detailed and streamlined UI, and additional content, for $20.
Chants of Sennaar - The aesthetic & vibes are wildly different, but the notebook mystery aspect is extremely similar, and it keeps the aspect of the player character being an outsider to the world while introducing other characters to interact with.
Type Help - Note: this is a purely text-based game. If that's not your thing, they are making a version with audio and visuals called "The Incident at Galley House", set to come out in 2026, but I will say that it being text-based is very much a feature, not a bug, and works perfectly for the type of mystery it entails.
Tacoma - admittedly, there's not much of a confirmation system, but its other characteristics similar to Obra Dinn more than make up for it. The vibes are off the chart - it's an empty ship that experienced a disaster where you uncover snippets of scenes of the crew going about their lives, where you play as a corporate employee assessing the aftermath. If that ain't Obra Dinn-like, idk what is.
A.5 tier - I haven't personally played it or watched a full playthrough, but I've researched it enough that I feel confident saying it's comparable to Return of the Obra Dinn
The Case of the Golden Idol - look, I straight up don't like this game, I watched one (1) video of the beginning and Gross, but it does have mystery-solving systems in place similar to Return of the Obra Dinn, and there is a bit of a vibe, partly in the art style and partly in the aspects of death.
B - Definitely at least a note-taking game, potentially a notebook mystery, uncertain if it's comparable to Return of the Obra Dinn
Her Story - putting together a story from fragments, there's a few vibes there, but I was unable to find information on any confirmation system.
Sethian - solving an unknown language (similar to Chants of Sennaar), but similar to above, couldn't tell if there was a confirmation system, or what the vibes were.
A Hand With Many Fingers - you're literally making a pepe-sylvia style conspiracy board about the CIA, perfect.
Book of Hours - I am 26 hours into this game as of writing this, and I can confidently say it is the most complicated thing I've ever played. you're a librarian slowly restoring a giant old library called the Hush House, uncovering room after room, unlocking books, learning skills, semi-befriending the townsfolk, and helping visitors find the books they need. It's not a notebook mystery because a notebook mystery generally has one big mystery you're trying to solve at a time, and Book of Hours has 8 billion mysteries of various sizes you're constantly trying to figure out, many of which are about mechanics and how the game works. It is certainly a note-taking game because of how many things you have to keep track of at once. Usually with games like these I find myself getting frustrated too easily and quitting, but something about it channels that frustration into righteous indignation and spite and I find myself wanting to prove that I can best it. sorry for getting off-topic, it's just a wildly different game than I thought it was going to be and I wanted to warn people.
C - I don't have detailed information, but looks promising
Unheard
Cypher
Strange Horticulture
Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective
D - I don't have detailed information, but looks significantly different
Heaven's Vault - more narrative-focused than Obra Dinn. "a dynamically constructed adventure game that responds to every move you make!" a very cool concept, probably an incredibly cool game! Incredibly different from Obra Dinn, where you solve a finite and pre-determined mystery.
Journey - this is just its own thing.
Sable - see above - open world RPGs are not Obra-Dinn-like.
Tunic - this looks like an action-adventure game that has some note-taking and mystery elements - they're not the main focus, though they are part of the world.
Tales of the Neon Sea
Misericorde - this is a visual novel
Uncle Chop’s Rocket Shop - I can see how you might think this was vaguely similar to Papers Please, a different game Lucas Pope made, but I have no idea why one would compare it to Obra Dinn
E - I don't have enough information to make a determination
Lorelei and the Laser Eyes
Blue Prince
The Forgotten City
No Case Should Remain Unsolved
corru.observer
Counterfeit Monkey
Rusty Lake: Roots
The Gostak
F - No.
Baba is You - I love Baba is You. It is in no way shape or form Obra-Dinn-like. There's puzzles but that's it.
Sky: Children of the Light - It’s an MMO (massive multiplayer online). That’s. Immediately very different. It is pretty and free (windows only) but like. no.
Inscryption - a genius, amazing game that you could definitely take notes about as you play it, but is not remotely Obra-Dinn-like, except perhaps occasionally in terms of Vibes and Atmosphere.
What Remains of Edith Finch - I love this game. It's not a notebook mystery or note-taking game. I can see why it's similar to "The Roottrees Are Dead", since it also involves uncovering a family tree, but there's no real guesswork involved. The story is revealed as you walk through an old house - as long as you get through the whole house (which isn't hard), the story is told. There is a notebook in game, but you don't actually take notes it in, it's more of a way of tracking your progress than a tool for figuring stuff out.
Honorable Mention: Event in a Place games
There are many games that are similar to Obra Dinn in the sense that you are exploring a Place where an Event has happened, and working through the aftermath or trying to figure out what the Event was. However, many are not notebook mysteries or note-taking games. It is technically correct to say they are "Obra Dinn-like" because they do share an important aspect with Return of the Obra Dinn, but it's not what most people mean when they say "Obra Dinn-like".
It's a Venn Diagram with notebook mysteries - The Roottrees are Dead is a notebook mystery, but not an Event in a Place game (EP), Tacoma is both, and What Remains Of Edith Finch is an EP but not a notebook mystery. I may make a separate post about it, idk yet. Anyway, here's some EPs that aren't notebook mysteries
Gone Home - a fantastic game. There is a mystery, and a framework to fill out (the map of the house), but no notebook or note-taking is necessary, nor a confirmation system. What IS Obra Dinn-like is piecing together what happened by the state the house was left in and letter & audio diaries left by the inhabitants, as well as constantly feeling like a ghost is maybe gonna eat you. It's one specific fate you're trying to determine throughout the game - the player character's sister, Sam - but I can see why it'd give off similar vibes.
What Remains of Edith Finch - see above. You uncover the fates of each family member as you make your way through an old spooky house, getting transported to mini-scenes that show the way each person died. I can definitely see why someone would compare to Return of the Obra Dinn in that respect - progress is measured in part by number of death scenes witnessed, which is a pretty unique mechanic. It's not a notebook mystery or note-taking game, but it is similar to Obra Dinn in some respects.
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I thinks folks expressing incredulity at the quality of the writing and composition in Calvin and Hobbes are often missing the context that Bill Watterson is arguably the most influential sequential artist of his generation. Like, this is a guy who once told the editors of nationally syndicated newspapers to go fuck themselves when they wanted to mess with his panel layouts, and not only did he keep his job, he got his way. He could have had literally any gig he wanted, and he chose to be the Sunday funnies guy because that's what made him happy. He's basically the Weird Al of sequential art.
Watterson considers comics to be as true an art form as painting and films and literature, capable of reaching just as high as any other medium. Calvin and Hobbes isn't accidentally high art. Watterson made it what it is on purpose. And when he was done, he stopped. No movie, no spinoff, no reboot. He considers the comic to be its completed form, in exactly the medium it is supposed to be. He believed in comics in a way few others ever have, and he fought tooth and nail for the right to take his own work, jokes and all, seriously.
I think Kotor 2 is a really funny game when it comes to the average analysis of it's themes, because it managed to create such a compelling antagonist that most people just kinda get lost into trying to analyze her words and actions through her apparent philosophical stand when she is just written to be a great hypocrite, something that they almost always fail to mention in the average analysis of Kreya's character.
Like she makes some points, that sometimes helping others without thinking about your actions can hurt them more than you could imagine and says some other things that are almost true but she frames them as a philosophy of might, you shouldn't help others because you are depriving them of their strength, because through suffering there's growth, through struggle you reach enlightenment, through individual freedom you reach apotheosis. She then reaches the conclusion that God, aka the Force, is the biggest chain of all and to be truly free is to kill the force, to reject fate completely.
She acts like she has some sort of moral high ground over the sith and the Jedi when in reality she is not much different. In a way, she does have some beliefs she follows without question, she still uses the force and if you ask her about it she admits the hypocritical nature of her argument, first comparing to a poison and then saying that that's just an argument of an old woman trying to justify it. She always talks about how there are no chains, how you must be completely free of fate because there's no determinate outcome, whatever happens being a result of your strength, yet she still betrays you by the end because there must always be a Darth Treya, there must always be someone that directly betrays the order in it's moment of need. That's fate, that should, and will, always happen.
I always read her admiration for the player originating from our achievement of her goals without becoming hypocrites like she is, something I'm sure she is aware of as hinted by her dialogue in her last fight. The player rejected the force, reject fate, through strenght of will alone, using it more alike a weapon than a dogma, but the player, in a way, still uses the force mostly as a way of unknowingly influence others, their strength is not in self isolation in pursue of the strength of an individual through the death of morals and complete freedom, but instead in connection with others.
In the dark side ending the player becomes Kreya, a hypocrite that acts on their own desires, on their own impulses, because they can, afterall they had the strength to reject the force once so they are strong enough to do whatever. On the light side ending the exile takes the correct path, not following Kreya but transcending her, becoming better than her, understanding that you can overcome the chains of fate not through individual freedom but through connection, in the light side ending you archive what Kreya never could.
I always read Kotor 2 as a story of abuse and trying to grow out of it, in this case Kreya being the abuser, breaking both Scion and Nihilus causing them to become what she hated the most, and the player character being her new target, the exile being able to either follow the narrative's themes and be able to grow despite the abuse or fail and become the abuser themselves, perpetuating the cycle, the chain, that I always read as what the force is supposed to symbolize in this story.
Kreya is a spiteful person that believes that she can not grow, that she can not change and become better, she accepts herself in her own hypocrite nature because of this belief, she understands that through her own argument, one of complete freedom and transcending any chains that bind us, she is a failure like the rest of her students because she follows her own chain, she believes she most perpetuate the cycle of abuse.
That's the reason why I always disagree witht he concept that Kreya steals the show from both Scion and Nihilus because both of them are different outcomes that the exile could have become, both are victims of abuse that thought they couldn't change.
There's this one study I always think about, how kids that came from abusive households were more reluctant to let go of their parents, and Scion reminds me of this, rejecting Kreya at every opportunity but being unable to let go of her, she defined who he became as a person, a failure in both of their eyes. That's why he is so mad when you are going to confront Kreya, he thinks of you as her favorite, as the one that didn't become a failure, as someone who could reject and grow from their abuse when he couldn't. And I always found so interesting that the way you beat him os through words because, well, because you try convincing him that he can change, that he can grow, you beat him not through a fight, through a show of strength, but through showing, arguing, that the abuse he went through is not an unmoving chain, that he has the capabilities of change. And he doesn't believe you, never does, he would rather die than think about that, that admit you are right, he reacts the same way Kreya does, dying rather than admit they were wrong. It feels incredibly tragic that this happens because you know it could end up in another way, you are that other possible outcome.
And Nihilus is a simpler character because most of the content related to him was cut, but I always read him as the complete rejection of Kreya, as doing the exact opposite of whatever she said even when it still ends up hurting him, becoming a shell of what he was once. That said, most of that is just me guessing something that would fit with my reading of the themes and is never actually said in the game, it's kinda hinted but I admit there's not enough information to confidently say that.
Anyways, my point is that I find kotor 2 quite a compelling story and, while I understand why most people only ever discuss Kreya, I feel slightly disappointed that most discussions of the game never really talk about anything else the game presents
it’s been almost a month since i watched lake mungo for the first time but i can’t stop thinking about it. you’re a teenage girl. you feel invisible. someone is hurting you and nobody knows. when you think of your mother, she’s looking straight through you. your friends don’t see you, your boyfriend doesn’t see you, your family doesn’t see you. you feel like something bad is going to happen to you. like something bad has happened, but it hasn’t reached you yet. you’re not ready. you see your own dead body, your own future coming for you, and you aren’t ready. you’re terrified and months pass and nobody notices. you have nightmares and you stand above your mother’s bed wanting comfort but you can’t ask for it. you don’t want to die, but you do. so you come back. you walk the halls of your home, you scream and shout. and for a moment, they see you! but then it passes. and your brother is creating your ghost himself, even though you’re right there. he edits your ghost into a picture where you already sit in the corner, begging to be seen. and there is a grown man in your bedroom digging through your things, and your mother is walking into other people’s houses and trying on their lives. your father only hears you screaming at him to go away. you're begging someone to see you. you're standing over your mother's bed still, but she won't open her eyes. and then they find out what you saw, they see it too, but instead of caring, they find peace. they come home and they say the house feels settled. they think you're gone. but you're still there, and you're still screaming! they decide they can leave. they pack up your things and leave the room. you're still there. you stand in the window watching them leave. they move on. you can't. after all of this, they still don't see you. they will never see you again. jesus christ.
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god hearing bludworth's goodbye words made me just so fucking emotional. the fact they literally took out what they originally scripted and let tony say what he wanted to say to everyone watching, telling them to enjoy their lives and make the most of what we have. it breaks me. i miss him so much.
Like they clearly want goth makeup to flag that a character is disturbed and socially dangerous rather than like, a person that enjoys the music of The Cure.
this is going to be a silly reblog but i have kind of a fixation on animal qualia and the idea of an animal's umwelt, so i ended up wondering whether pudding was actually "enjoying" this.
which meant i went and read about snail brains.
here's the bad news, at least by human standards:
snails do not have anything like a centralized brain. their nervous system is made up of small clusters of neurons (ganglia) that mostly handle very local tasks. they don't have a cortex, they don't build big integrated models of the world, and they almost certainly don't experience things like appreciation, anticipation, or savoring.
pudding is not looking at the sky and thinking it's beautiful.
snail eyes are basically light sensors - they can tell bright from dark, but not form images. snail "taste" is done through chemoreceptors on their tentacles and around their mouth. those receptors don't produce flavor the way ours do; they just detect chemical compounds and sort them into "approach," "ignore," or "avoid."
so there's no evidence that snails enjoy food, or wind, or views, the way mammals do.
and that does sound kind of sad. but then i thought that maybe we are asking the wrong question.
snails do have valence. they detect aversive things (like salt or dryness) and withdraw from them. they detect non-aversive or beneficial conditions (like moisture) and stay extended. when pudding is stretched out like this, it means his nervous system is basically saying "this is safe; nothing is wrong."
if we define pleasure not as our human experience of dopamine and reward chemicals but instead as "the absence of aversion" - a state where the organism is open to its environment instead of defending itself - then this does count as something positive, even if it's extremely nothing like human enjoyment.
pudding isn't appreciating the wind. but his body is registering humidity, safety, and the ability to keep functioning, and that matters to him in the only way his nervous system can make things matter. he does not think "this is great, this is awesome, i love the weather", because he doesn't think in the way we do at all, but the neurological action in his ganglion tell his body that he is safe, that the moisture is an acceptable level, that it's not too dry or windy, and that there's nothing imminently threatening.
i think a lot of the sadness comes from assuming that a good life has to look like ours: full of enjoyment, meaning, and aesthetic experience. but a snail isn't missing those things. its world just isn't built to include them.
snails don't have a sense of flavor. they don't even have tastebuds. this seems like a gimme, right? but again that might be asking the wrong question about what "taste" is. biologically speaking, it's chemoreception. we taste sweet because it indicates high value, high calorie sugar molecules. we taste salty for salt, umami for proteins. so in what way does pudding's chemoreceptors differ from ours instrumentally? we can say "by our human perspective, pudding can't experience "preference" or "savoring" or "anticipation of delicious food"", but from pudding's perspective we have radically overengineered ourselves for the task at hand. pudding can tell what's salty, what's high value, what has the chemicals he needs. the functional outcome is that he can discriminate food souces based on their composition. is that not taste?
so maybe the point isn't "this is sad because he can't enjoy it," but "this is a reminder that minds come in radically different shapes, and value doesn't have to be rich to be real."
people who are afraid of snakes are fuckin’ WILD, like dude, just carefully step over these fat babies’ sausage bodies and gently move the burmese python chillin’ against the door, then you become unfathomably rich. i would do this for $10. i would do this for FREE.
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Gothic literature must be cursed to forever be misinterpreted by mainstream public because how did this happen
Dracula book: an evil count who only sees the world as a resource to be drained for his own pleasure is stopped by the group of people who deeply care for each other
Dracula in media: a tragic romantic hero, main love interest of one of the protagonists who must be liberated from her dull little life
Frankenstein book: any human has capacity for evil when completely abandoned and shunned by the world and the people who brought him into it
Frankenstein in media: don't play God because it's against nature's laws
Jekyll and Hyde book: repression and only caring about external appearances can cause your worst impulses to indulge themselves in dangerous ways if ignored for too long
Jekyll and Hyde in media: what if there was two of the same guy but one of them was evil and gross?
pixelskylines
blakekathryn
origamiaround
kaledo-art
titsay
germansingergirl
discoholicmusic
snowghoul
areudirty
