#tosd

Join me on this crazy ride, and please keep in mind that I have BPD as I discuss the experience in an extremely blunt fashion.

Please also keep in mind that we're getting into unknowns at this point, parts of the ToSD that really are still theoretical. What I say here could one day be proven wrong and is debated in research.

I said in a previous post that an EP is essentially a flashback. You know the typical, TV show flashback? Fireworks setting off a veteran and they pull their gun and hunker down, lost in terrible memories?

That's an EP in PTSD.

It's PTSD from a car accident activating and making your heart race when you hear a car horn, looking around fearfully.

That state, that heightened awareness, that brief loss of connection to current reality, time and day, is an EP in structural dissociation.

Remember, dissociation is a disconnect.

But these states are commonly known as fragments in CDDs. Single use/purpose alters, there's not much there beyond the single event and train of thought. They not only don't care about current day events but they won't remember anything they learned the last time they made an appearance.

Let's move into BPD, because it's actually right there, next to OSDD on the scale.

Do you know anyone with BPD who goes into... any of the following: fits, rages, breakdowns, screaming matches, suddenly being terrified, and sometimes that person can and will acknowledge the event and sometimes the person can't and won't, but either way, they seem very disconnected from it in some fashion? They don't REALLY remember, it didn't feel like them, it definitely wasn't like them, and they're ashamed and embarrassed, and sometimes they're so early in their recovery that you know they'll just do it again next week?

That's the same thing, the same EP, sitting in the middle of the SD spectrum.

It IS still that same person, they DO remember, they are capable of accepting and acknowledging their actions, even if it made no sense to them.

Now imagine they had dissociative amnesia every time one of these episodes happened.

DUN DUN DUUUN

Now we have osdd 1a (obligatory not real).

Now imagine those states were out so often and had absorbed so much life experience that they were capable of more than just the single thing? They could hold a conversation, have opinions on events, remember things.

Now we have distinct alters, and we're straddling the amnesia criteria. Yes or no?

DID or OSDD 1b?

When you spend so much time dissociating as a child, you maintain this hold on the ability that you are LITERALLY GOING TO THERAPY TO TRAIN IT OUT OF YOURSELF.

That's the goal.

Stop it.

Dissociation has become so maladaptive and normal for you that you maintain the ability to continue to dissociate parts of your life away into pieces. It becomes second nature to do this at the drop of a dime, for anything or any reason. These parts gain autonomy more quickly, the system is gaining awareness, more alters are coming out of the woodworks, fragments are finding a sense of self--

Structural dissociation isn't just a spectrum, but so are the experiences that it encompasses. The states themselves are a spectrum, from EP to ANP, acknowledging the mixed parts found between the two.

For some people, genetics will keep them in primary and secondary SD, maybe others had more support. There's no telling where you'll end up on the spectrum, but what IS known, is that in order to reach tertiary SD, you must have started dissociating in childhood.

There are neurological biomarkers to CDDs, brain structures common across patients that are so established that they could only have come from childhood, during development of the brain itself, affecting areas of memory and emotional development.

You go to therapy to literally rewrite your brain to stop dissociating so much.

So what about people with CDDs and comorbid BPD?

Despite all the spectrum talk, BPD and OSDD are two distinct, different disorders.

Sometimes they're not, and this is where clinicians are still debating. Is BPD The Personality Disorder different from BPD The Trauma Reaction? Is BPD The Trauma Reaction another version of OSDD? BPD is one of only a few PDs with a known and accepted trauma basis, but it's also not always rooted in trauma, meaning it IS distinct, and it doesn't actually matter whether we're talking about the Personality Disorder or the Trauma Response, because it remains possible for BPD to be invasive and constant across the entire system, making it properly comorbid.

Look at OCD, well-known to be connected to trauma, and there's OCD and there's OCPD. The difference in those two disorders is greater but should be BPD be the same way? Are there secretly two forms?

No one knows.

And as for how that's experienced... I don't think there's one way and I don't think the same person will react/handle it the same way each time something comes up. I think the possibilities are endless, and any alter that sits closer to ANP is capable of having their own distinct emotional experiences and phobias, and therefore their own EPs.

If you feel like that trauma outside the cut-off age is the cause of your plurality, dissociative disorder, or both, your plurality and/or dissociative disorder is/are still real.

Trauma can happen and affect you any time. The onset of plurality has no age limit. Dissociative disorders have no deadline.

The structural dissociation theory does not apply to everyone - singlet, plural, or otherwise, disordered or not - and you don't have to squeeze yourself/yourselves to fit that box.

Anything after this will be deleted or ignored for my own MH

People fully admit they're not taking anything anyone says in good faith and refusing to allow anyone the chance to elaborate, and I'm not down for that

So

Complex: I've stated repeatedly that calling one thing complex is not saying another thing isn't. This isn't a complexity competition. I'm not comparing the complexity of anything, but instead discussing what falls under the HEADER of CDD and why. Whether it's under the HEADER or not means nothing (see quote below).

Parts/alters: fully autonomous with their own continuous sense of self (ANP or ANP-like, based on Nijenhuis' updated ToSD definitions)

Distinction between OSDD 1a and b as CDDs: I said that OSDD 1 falls into secondary SD (it does, generally, see below), though 1a falls firmly in the middle and 1b falls closer, or into, tertiary. This isn't just my own words, but coming from the authors of the ToSD.

Neither is more complex than the other. In fact, it's suggested that the opposite is true.

-(there's another quote I want to include here, just need to find it)-

In principle, the number of parts of the personality in a given individual has little bearing on whether dissociation is at the secondary or tertiary level. A patient with secondary structural dissociation may have many EPs, while a patient with tertiary structural dissociation may only have two ANPs and two EPs.

The Haunted Self

The theory predicts that overcoming tertiary dissociation in DID is less demanding than overcoming secondary dissociation.

Trauma-Related Structural Dissociation of the Personality, van der Hart, Nijenhuis, Steele

CDD as a term simply encompasses multiple ANPs and multiple EPs. That's it.

In my initial post about OSDD 2, I specifically chose the word "parts" instead of alters because I didn't want to leave out OSDD 1a. I should have used a different word or elaborated more on what definition I was using, and how OSDD 2 did not share that feature.

OSDD 2: is about identity confusion, not alteration. That's coming from the DSM. I said, if you experienced those things and have "parts" or a system or alters, OSDD 1 or DID would override the OSDD 2 diagnosis.

I'm not sure why that's controversial. This doesn't say anything about the complexity of the disorder or the causes behind it. It just doesn't have alters or distinct parts. Why is everyone so angry?

OSDD 1a doesn't have alters: see this post with backup info. This does not mean that I believe OSDD 1a isn't systemhood or that they don't belong in this community. Again, just just a fact about the presentation of the disorder.

BPD and OSDD 1a: I provided sources where I was getting my comparison from. The difference here seems to be levels of amnesia and the... Strength? Of EPs. Does that make sense? In fact, I'd argue trauma-based, dissociative BPD belongs in our communities too for support.

According to the Haunted Self:

However, patients with BPD have lower scores for dissociative amnesia on the DIS-Q than patients with DID and lesser degrees of identity confusion and alteration. These differences distinguish BPD from DID... Some patients with BPD have severe dissociative symptoms, and may actually border on DDNOS or DID. Our clinical observations suggest that dissociative parts in BPD patients have less emancipation and elaboration, and a less distinct sense of self than in DDNOS or DID.

I think that's everything, but if you send an ask with a point you'd like further clarification on, I'll likely add it here, but I won't be directly engaging any further.

Additional edit:

I'm not sure if it's because I live in America's hat, or just my own education, but DDNOS was always described as "not yet" and "not quite". People were diagnosed with DDNOS when they either failed to switch during diagnostic interviewing, or they showed no signs of amnesia, and the vast majority would go on to eventually display both and later be diagnosed as DID.

For example, during initial interviews, we would go into "states" where we believed we were still in active danger. We would cry and panic and completely shut down. If this was an alter, it was little more than a fragment that would manage to completely overpower the rest of us with the sheer... Size of its fear. Recognizing where our life was currently was just... Beyond our grasp in this state, and even if it could be convinced we were safe and calmed to hold a conversation, any progress was undone by the next time it appeared.

I came out of these sessions with only minimal awareness/memory. I knew I'd made a fool of myself, but not much else, though the way I tried to play it off as nothing major implied I had more awareness than I did.

This was the EP, I was told.

Its function was extremely limited and it was driven by emotional distress. Talking to it in any coherent fashion wasn't possible. It couldn't recognize our life as it was currently and was terrified that our abuser was standing outside the office door, waiting for us to finish. All that could be done was to reassure it until the episode passed. It believed it was me, but thought that I was someone else. That sounds confusing, but it was very much a part of me/us, and related to this body, this life, and the trauma we experienced, but somehow thought that we were a little boy, at the same time.

I am not a little boy, and I was little girl at the time that abuse occurred.

Again, confusing, nothing ever makes sense, it's wonderful.

Amnesia wasn't clear enough at this point, not for switching and not for past abuse.

I have never managed to fully switch in therapy, though at home my system is extremely comfortable with my partner. Several years later, long after I had chickened out of further testing, I was in therapy again and my doctor was aware of my previous history with OSDD. I still couldn't let us switch in front of her, but my husband was brought in to talk about some of my other alters.

Some appeared, by description, to be fully fledged ANPs. Aware of our life as it was, vaguely aware of our history, but relatively unbothered and disconnected from the... Fallout of that history. They had likes and dislikes and could hold conversations about current, relative topics, and held their own opinions and ideas about those topics.

For example, all except for one of my ANPs thinks COVID was bad. One of us thinks the world needed a culling to bring to population down before we completely kill the planet. That's fucked up, but he's got opinions and he's damn well going to share them, whether any of us like it or not.

This alter was a mix of an ANP and EP. He was still largely driven by paranoia and anger, and he occasionally found himself confused about days and times or where he was (sometimes even what species he was). He was mostly capable of holding conversations about current topics, though very selfish in that it would always turn back to him and his problems.

The EPs have no idea what COVID is (though if I split one because of COVID, that would be a different story), and have no interest in hearing about it.

I have never once said that OSDD 1a are not systems. They very much are. They still switch and have just as many (if not more) problems as I do. They still have parts.

However, in the context of CDDs, they don't fall into tertiary SD. That all I said.

EPs are not "alters" as they're known in DID because they have little to no awareness of positive life changes and instead remain stuck in trauma. I've lost hope of my little EP ever taking on ANP traits, and instead now focus on internal care for him.

Because he fucking deserves it.

I needed to stop hoping and expecting, because it was putting more strain and stress on him, and I needed to accept the little emotional bundle that he was. He likes mug cakes and watching Marble Olympics after he's been calmed. It helps him relax so we can scoop him back up in a hug and put him to bed, because naps after crying are the best.

In my opinion, all this makes DDNOS/OSDD 1 a pretty useless diagnosis, and I think it should all be part of one single diagnosis. I think OSDD should be in tertiary, regardless of EP/ANP configuration because of the relative emancipation and awareness of EPs in 1a. They may not be as distinct and autonomous as ANPs or alters, but this is clearly part of the same disorder and it goes above and beyond that of the other disorders considered secondary SD.

There have been dozens of recommendations for how this should happen, all with their own problems and positives.

I don't really have any thoughts myself on how to do this.

So according to the TOSD before the age of what, 8-9 or something you're made up of these ego states that then integrate if you're a singlet and if you experience extreme trauma don't.

What are the ego states? How many are they? What happens to them? Can you tell me who in your system developed from what ego state? Is the hungry ego state just always hungry? Do they become the sin of gluttony or something? I genuinely want to know because not only can I find nothing about these ego states other than specific references to the TOSD, I have never heard anyone mention how many ego states you have and what they are. The most popularized version of ego states I could find applied to everyone, and was about adult/child and I think a third, as well as Freud's ego states.

As much as this does genuinely baffle me I know it'll be more useful to have a respectful conversation about it so I will try not to be too sarcastic. This isn't the right place for sysmed shit or talking about why Onno van der Hart lost his license, trust me we are aware of all that but that isn't the purpose of this post so please save it for another place and another time.

-Rev

Please, have a rambling explanation of how we view and define dissociation within plurality, multiplicity, and CDDs. We’d love to hear from you, and we have links to free sources for any who ask (as we don’t want them taken down).

Structural Dissociation

Under the theory of structural dissociation (TOSD), the emotional parts (EPs) are initially unintegrated due to overwhelm, but remain separate as a result of the phobia of the apparently normal parts (ANPs) who live daily life. This phobia can manifest as denial of the EPs’ existence, refusal to communicate with EPs, and inability to accept the EPs’ experience as belonging to the ANP (the condition to integration).

Both in complex dissociative disorders (CDDs) and other traumagenic structural dissociation (SD), the publication of the TOSD (the Haunted Self) defines some EPs as elaborated; the EPs are the traumatized selves. I have trouble with this because of the required multiple ANPs to qualify tertiary SD.

If a self (as opposed to a self-state) can be an EP, some systems would qualify as having only one ANP, or possibly none at all. However, if a self is an ANP, each could have any number of associated EPs, or self-states.

Self-States

I like self-states because everybody has them, and it fills in some of the gaps left by the TOSD. Self-states aren’t inherently stuck in trauma, but a trauma-holding self-state would fit the phobia associated with traumagenic unintegration. It also leaves room for those who share self-states between selves, and for those whose selves contain multiple self-states without barriers between their states.

Elaboration occurs as self-states are collected within the boundaries of a self. Self-states are built out of experience, from tiny fragments of sensation or emotion to a developed set of reactions and behaviors to stimuli. It is one self-state when experiences are accepted in, like a mosaic. Some self-states have self-states, contained like marbles in a bowl. Some self-states are small, but uncontained, marbles rolling about all on their own.

Selves

Selves are differentiated from self-states by their sense of ‘me’ as opposed to the ‘not-me’ of the other selves. Some self-states develop a sense of ‘me’ with ease, and this is especially true in those whose boundaries were laid before the self-states of the body obtained a singular, collective sense of ‘me’ (which occurs around the time a body reaches double digits of age).

The Haunted Self notes traumagenic SD occurs more easily in children, but does not give the age of every patient used as an example. Several of the EP self-states are elaborated, and some have their own selves. The ambiguity is in how old the bodies were when these selves formed, and an EP with a self formed after 12 would be synonymous to a CDD formed after the cut-off age.

This is part of why we believe non-traumagenic plurality is possible, but there is another; if a self-state is unintegrated (and non-traumagenic dissociation is scientifically recognized), elaboration can be achieved by adding experiences. Having a self to stick to encourages elaboration, and self-states can get that by introspecting.

New Selves

Self-states that coalesce (or otherwise don’t integrate into other selves) before forming a sense of ‘me’ might explain how some selves are elaborated as soon as they appear. Self-states that never form a self might remain as marbles rolling around free, for any self to bring into its boundaries while out in the body or to front alone for specific scenarios.

Selves always have dissociative boundaries; by definition, dissociation is non-association, unintegration (which is how systems who work on lowering barriers can go between having boundaries and not, they’re integrating).

Amnesia

I would say memory barriers between selves who were at front and selves who weren’t differs from amnesia; they didn’t forget, they just weren’t there. The selves that weren’t there might have left because the brain was expecting trauma, or because their front can only hold one self at a time. Keeping these memories separate involves keeping them within the boundaries of a self, and those memories are smaller self-states like the marbles in the bowl. Amnesia as a self losing memories they once had is more like removing those self-states from the boundaries of that self.

Not all selves have memory barriers between them, or amnesia for memories they had. A body can have either function, both, neither, or a mix between different selves.

An Invitation

Our system functions very visibly within these parameters, and we can scale up or down to any feature we have. One day, I’d like to write a more professional introduction of our theory, but for now I’ll settle for introducing the language.

Undertale Community Project 2024

My art for @arerona 's Undertale Community Prodject other on DeviantArt.

I'm really not involved in the Undertale community any more, but I've done this every year since 2018, so no point in stopping now :P

Given I re-worked Tales Of Stardust to be an original for my school work last semester, it definitely made this a lot harder than I expected. As you'll see, I reverted some of the designs back to their pre-2020s vs, to make a stronger visual difference between the two iterations of the story. Story wise, I went with the re-written version ( I really do love it so much more!), which is why older viewers will notice a significant difference in their meeting.

Anyway,

I got a little carried away with these two pieces, I intended for them to be a lot simpler than this, since I'm very short on time (drowning in school work again, rip me), but I am very happy with the end product even with the extra time needed to make these beauties, especially the bottom one :)

Speedpaint below ⬇️

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Summary: an EP is a part that encapsulates the complex mental systems involving traumatic experiences & memories, and is disconnected & disoriented from the life they live in the present.

EPs are the "threat response" & "autonoetic traumatic memory" activation systems of the mind. These systems include: fight, flight, freeze, fawn, pain-experiencing & pain-numbing, re-experiencing traumatic memories, being disoriented to the present, and "owning" memories.\...\- In primary structural dissociation, one EP includes all of these systems & subsystems. In secondary & tertiary structural dissociation, these systems are divided between multiple EPs, and different EPs can exhibit the same threat responses in different situations. Additionally, threat response systems are frequently activated in succession (eg. freeze to fawn to flight), and will often result in multiple EPs being active at the same time, with one "experiencing" EP, and one or more "observing" EPs.

Example: "freeze" EP is experiencing & personifying a traumatic situation, while "flight" EP and "fawn" EP are observing it.

The latter two are not personifying the experience, because "freeze" EP is not behaving the way "flight" EP and "fawn" EP would or want to. In this situation, all three EPs are active, because all three responses may be needed for the traumatic situation. Each EP is, essentially, "waiting their turn" to be active so that they can protect themselves through their threat response activation system.

When these parts are more autonomous & elaborated, it can cause conflict if multiple EPs are active at one time. One EP may be critical of another, and might take drastic measures, such as self-harm, to activate a different threat response system, and thus, a different EP.\...\- With regards to re-experiencing traumatic memories, EPs may remember only metaphorical representations of the trauma, a complete recall of the event, fragments of a single event, or similar aspects of multiple traumas recalled as only one memory or event.

Because the EP's memories are subjective reproductions of an event, and not an exact replica, different EPs may have vastly different perceptions & responses to the same traumatic situation. Two EPs may even have completely separate memories regarding a single event. Furthermore, the activation of traumatic memories will often obstruct access to other memories available to the ANP, resulting in the EP being unable to recall episodic, semantic, or even procedural memories. This restriction can cause EPs to become stuck in a loop of re-experiencing a traumatic event, with no way to orient themselves to the present.

If the EP can be re-oriented enough to gain access to non-traumatic memories, they can grow beyond their activation systems. The more an EP is activated by trauma-related stimuli, the more benign life experience they gain. After a while, they may begin to develop a set of personal memories unrelated to their trauma. This can cause an elaborated sense of self, resulting in an "Emancipated EP." In this case, the EP is able to expand their episodic, semantic, and procedural memories past what their activation systems demand of them, allowing the EP to have their own set of wants, needs, interests, and desires.

The Emancipated EP will continue to be activated by trauma-related stimuli, however, they may be able to re-orient themselves to the present on their own, and will begin to become activated through positive stimuli that is unique to their episodic memories. Emancipation may cause conflict with other EPs, as well as phobic ANPs. The more an EP is activated in daily life by benign stimuli, the more an ANP may feel out of control, or even threatened by the presence of the Emancipated EP, who still holds traumatic memories. However, an Emancipated EP is still not fully integrated with their present reality. While they have synthesized their traumatic memories & activation systems with their benign memories and personality, they are still activated & disoriented by trauma-related stimuli.

It's important to remember that EPs are representatives of threat response activation systems & autonoetic traumatic memories. EPs are never trying to make things difficult on purpose. Rather, they are responding to innate biological systems they have no control over. EPs are also greatly affected by something called "conditional triggers," specifically with regards to their activation, but that requires an entire thread on its own. I will reply to this tweet with that thread once I have it written.

A final note: please remember that DID is complex, and alters are not only their labels. It can be hard to define whether a part is an ANP or not, and you should never force labels onto your parts against their will.

Take what feels right to you, and leave the rest.

Common EP Roles/Experiences:

- apprehension/fear part

- pain-numbing part

- pain-experiencing part

- 4Fs of survival part(s)

- attachment-seeking part

- care-seeking part

- recuperation from injury part

- "sick" or "ill" part

- "negative" sexual part

- aggressive part

Common EP Feelings:

- extreme emotions

- psychosomatic pain

- intense sensory experiences

- feeling overwhelmed

- suicidal ideation or behaviors

- pervasive sadness

- grief, loss, & mourning

- hope & longing

- feeling as if "nothing good happens"

- desire for caregiving

All of this information was taken from the Theory of Structural Dissociation, as written in the original paper from 2004.

Source:

Please excuse any typos.

I am not a professional nor an expert.