I'm sorry, but what do you mean AFTG opens with Andrew slamming his racquet into Neil to stop him from running away and ends with Andrew slamming his racquet into Riko to save Neil now that Neil has finally stopped running?
What do you MEAN the first thing that Andrew says to Neil is "better luck next time" - and in the end the better luck is that Andrew was fast enough and desperate enough to reach him in time??
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alright, i want you to lay it on me. what do you think of Betsy Dobson? is she a good therapist? is she good for Andrew specifically? give me your thoughts please
Hi Milo!!!
Okay! So my thoughts on Betsy are complex [I initially had “like most of my thoughts” but after editing I’ve realized that sounds like the most deranged humble brag ever, so]. Like all of the AFTG characters (including Riko) I love Betsy as a character.
However, I find the tendency to venerate Betsy as the Perfect Mother Figure in regard to Andrew, in a series that depicts a lot of complicated parent-child relationships: Mary & Neil, Wymack & Kevin, Tilda & Aaron, Cass & Andrew, even Tetsuji & Riko, diminishes the actual complexity of Betsy’s character, her relationship with Andrew & her role as the Foxes (+ Jean’s) therapist. Venerating Betsy as the Perfect Mother/Perfect Therapist neglects potential flaws she has & the tension she creates within the narrative. AFTG is also a series where all the characters, including the more “Adult” characters like Wymack & Abby, have their biases and character flaws.
I’ve made it abundantly clear that I love Messy Found Family Dynamics more than the “perfect family where everyone easily understands one another and always get along” (which is why I’m also interested in the messiness of the Hemmick-Minyard family dynamics instead of “wholesome Twinyards” or Nicky as the “Perfect Guardian” - which, a bit off-topic, but I do find it a bit strange when people refer to Nicky as having “raised” the twins. Y’all they were 16, not 6. And Nicky was 20 & let them drink and do drugs. He was more like an older brother than their father).
However, while I think Fanon has really run with the whole “Mama Bee” concept, I can’t actually put the onus entirely on Fanon this time because the concept did originate with Nora. Now, Fanon definitely exaggerates it to an extent - as Fandom tends to exaggerate much of Canon. I don’t think Andrew would ever actually call Betsy mom nor would she refer to him as her son, especially if he was still her patient who she is being paid by the university to administer mental health care to. Mainly because that would be horrifically inappropriate and if someone did write that it would be much more interesting to read about the fallout that the breaking of those professional boundaries between a therapist/patient could create than just uncritically celebrate how “good this is for Andrew.”
(Fallout whether in terms of Betsy’s career due to her reputation taking a hit or Betsy informing Andrew she cannot be his therapist anymore because of their emotional connection, which I think would devastate Andrew because he would perceive it as a form of abandonment [I’ve mentioned before that I read Andrew as having anxious attachment, and possibly BPD alongside C-PTSD brought on from frequent childhood abandonment, neglect, and childhood sexual abuse, which can result in an unstable identity as an adult (as shown by Andrew reshaping himself to what others need) + resulting in one constantly searching for external validation to affirm their identity (Andrew’s deals). People with this trauma can become very attached to their therapists, and are also more sensitive to feeling abandoned by a therapist + others, which is why Andrew often forms codependent bonds with other characters].
Betsy needing to recommend Andrew to another therapist because their relationship has evolved past the appropriate level for a therapist-patient wouldn’t feel like a win to Andrew, but a loss. Andrew is also very much a “having his cake and eating it too” kind of character in the sense that he would want Betsy to fulfill both a therapist & maternal role in his life even if that would NOT be advisable, in the same way he wanted Neil & his deal with Aaron to stand, or Nicky to be part of his group while also not acknowledging Nicky as part of his family).
I have seen some readers acknowledge that they know Betsy isn’t a realistic therapist & her relationship with her patients isn’t realistic & they aren’t looking for realistic dynamics in AFTG, but like I said one of the aspects I like about AFTG is the complicated relationships between characters: Aaron & Andrew have a complicated brother-brother relationship, Wymack & Kevin a complicated father-son relationship, the Foxes are a fractured team. Making Betsy too perfect & her relationship with Andrew without tensions feels… contradictory to the rest of AFTG.
As always, my many & long thoughts will be under the Read More. (Part 1/2)
I believe Betsy was definitely written to be a good therapist. Within-universe, she is meant to be the “best” therapist basically.
Nora has admitted in the past that she doesn’t really like therapists (same with fathers). But that Betsy, in regard to being a therapist, similar to Wymack in regard to being a father, is meant to be one of the Good Ones. Now, that doesn’t necessarily mean we have to read Betsy as perfect, however, I ultimately think we are meant to read Betsy as someone who genuinely cares about her job & the patients under her care & as someone who has a positive impact on ‘troubled’ characters such as Andrew, Aaron, Jean & possibly even Kevin & Neil.
This is reinforced in TSC & TGR when Betsy becomes JEAN’S therapist, despite him not attending Palmetto University. The other therapists - such as Jeremy’s therapist & the other therapist recommended for Jean - in contrast are obviously lackluster, and bad at their jobs. Even though Jeremy’s therapist does have a valid reason in regard to her dying daughter.
So, while I think we are ultimately meant to consider Betsy to be a good therapist whose advice is meant to be helpful & her treatment meant to be improving the well-being of the characters under her care, I also think the cracks are obvious even in the books & that can be expanded upon further instead of neglected.
Let me start with the logistical problems of Betsy as the “best” therapist. She is written to be a kind of “catch-all” therapist who seemingly specializes in every form of therapy known. Student counseling, family counseling, grief counseling, childhood abuse - physical, emotional & sexual, rape recovery, eating disorder recovery, and seemingly every mental health condition in existence from depression to anxiety. Realistically, a therapist would not be adequately trained to provide services on every single one of those issues & an individual would have multiple therapists to receive adequate treatment as required. Andrew would have been referred to a therapist that specialized in providing treatment for CSA/SA. [Do I think Andrew as a character would hate that? Yes. Do I think it would ultimately be better for him & also avoid the pitfall of forming too strong of an emotional attachment to a singular therapist? Also yes].
Additionally, Betsy treating Andrew’s individual mental health, as well as providing family counseling to Andrew & Aaron AND providing mental health services to Nicky (Andrew’s cousin), Neil (Andrew’s partner), Kevin (Andrew’s friend) and the rest of the Foxes (Andrew’s teammates) results in multiple severe conflicts on interest. Now, Betsy states in-text that she can be impartial & objective regardless of who she is treating, and this is also just my own personal values. but: I do not believe anyone on Earth is actually capable of being objective. Many people strive towards it, and when it comes to mental health there are policies in place meant to help therapists retain as much objectivity as possible. However, there is no such thing as someone who can be purely objective & without biases and when those barriers are eroded then there will be risks (that I think would be interesting to explore instead of dismissing!).
Moreover, during Betsy’s POV she very obviously is biased towards Andrew, “her most precious charge.” The Fandom can tell that Betsy is biased towards Andrew - which is where the obsession with “Mama Bee” came from. And since Andrew’s obvious childhood desire was to Have A Good Mother, much of the Fandom wants Betsy to be the fulfillment of that desire, even though that might not necessarily be the best outcome for Andrew. Other characters in-universe can also tell that Betsy is biased towards Andrew - Neil, Kevin, Aaron. They all express some amount of knowledge/paranoia regarding that Betsy is “Andrew’s.” Realistically, Betsy cannot provide adequate care to people close to Andrew when she is blatantly biased towards him (or when those closest to Andrew know that Andrew himself is very attached to her, colouring how they may wish to interact with Betsy). She cannot separate her emotional attachment from Andrew - or even seemingly hide it from others - to form an opinion as if he were a stranger meaning that she will be, even subconsciously, more geared to take Andrew’s side/want what is best for ANDREW even potentially at the detriment to others. Also, she may be less willing to tell him harsh truths or push him past his comfort zone out of care for him.
Neil believes (and we as readers are also meant to believe) that Betsy is the best person to heal Andrew & Aaron. Unfortunately, in the canonical therapy scene we do have with Betsy, Andrew, and Aaron, Betsy is actually doing very little as a therapist. Aaron speaks to Andrew while ignoring her completely, and Andrew speaks to Betsy, although not even really about what Aaron is saying. She’s basically providing a space for them to talk. Aaron doesn’t respect her as a therapist & in the Canon scene we do have of their therapy, he’s in fact using Andrew’s attachment to Betsy to out Andrew to her & make Andrew uncomfortable so he can get the upper-hand in breaking their deal
[which I’m not against Aaron for doing this, he had to do what he had to do, however, even in the Andrew & Aaron therapy scene we have with Betsy, her role as a therapist isn’t as important as her role of Being Important To Andrew - and other therapy scenes we have with Betsy in regard to Neil, Neil isn’t really interacting with her because she makes him uncomfortable. We also have the scene where Betsy offers Neil therapy in the car after Andrew was raped post-Thanksgiving, and while Betsy’s intentions were good & with the intent to help when she offers Neil a session in the car, if you are ever trying to have an uncomfortable conversation with someone who you know is often unwilling to talk to you… trying to start that conversation when y’all are trapped in a small moving box neither of you can escape from, is NOT the way to go about it. Neil knows Betsy is a therapist & if he wanted to speak to her, he could have initiated that kind of conversation].
Additionally, everything Betsy knows about Aaron is from Andrew or from Nicky, and she doesn’t have an emotional bond with Aaron. She has an emotional connection to Andrew, who buys her gifts, texts her, watches musicals with her, goes out to ice-cream with her. This has the potential to become very, very messy. Betsy doesn’t have an equal relationship with her patients where they can actually trust she isn’t biased, even though she reassures them that she isn’t.
Furthermore, the fact that Betsy treats every character about every issue under the Sun,also means that Betsy can form opinions/treatment plans based on information about someone that she has learned from someone else. Betsy stresses in the books - as does the Fandom - that Betsy will not share information about another patient to another patient without permission. That is only half the problem of having a singular therapist for an entire family/friend group/team.
The other half of the problem is, for example: Nicky tells Betsy something about Andrew or Aaron - a deep, personal secret that was told to Nicky in confidence. Betsy cannot tell Andrew or Aaron that Nicky told her this, however, it’s not like she will have amnesia in regard to this information when interacting with Andrew or Aaron. Therefore, Betsy has MORE information about the patients that she is treating than they are even aware of her having. And this is true for all the Foxes. Aaron even acknowledges this during their therapy scene when he mentions that Betsy undoubtedly knows he has been homophobic to Nicky in the past from Nicky. This means that Betsy already has preconceived notions about Aaron’s character, which Aaron then has to dismantle.
Part 1/2: This ended up MUCH longer than even I thought, so I’ll reblog part 2 under this post.
Now, none of this makes me think Betsy is a bad character (or a bad person in-universe). In fact, I think this makes her a FASCINATING character because it makes her more human! These are aspects of Betsy’s character that I would love to see explored more [instead of Neil’s distaste of Betsy being written as ridiculous or b/c he thinks psychiatry is a “quack” profession, which isn’t even the issue Neil has with her in the books! He doesn’t think Betsy is stupid, he’s wary around her b/c he believes her to be intelligent enough to realize that he’s lying about every aspect of his life or Andrew's relationship with her to be treated completely uncritically within a narrative or by everyone, even if Andrew himself is unlikely to ever think anything bad about Betsy].
But I would love to see more of the other Foxes running into problems b/c of Betsy’s bias towards Andrew! Allison loves to bitch, as we know, but imagine Betsy curtly correcting her when she says something rude about Andrew. Or even correcting Nicky - and to be fair, Allison & Nicky both have justified grievances against Andrew, who had behaved violently to the both of them. That would be wildly unprofessional of Betsy, but it’d show her as a flawed, human character. Or Aaron & Andrew having a fight in her office, and she’s obvious more protective over Andrew than Aaron. I would find that characterization of Betsy a lot more fascinating than an idolized version of her.
The opposite could also be equally fascinating - Betsy, aware of her bias towards Andrew, over-correcting and being dismissive to Andrew in favour of someone else (and maybe Andrew IS in the wrong, or has lashed out violently and Betsy is right to criticize him or maybe Andrew ISN'T in the wrong, and his side of things is being neglected, but Betsy is her rush to seem "fair" actually ends up punishing Andrew), regardless I believe Andrew would take any perceived slight from Betsy - real or imaginary -, or believing that Betsy is siding with someone else over him, as a personal betrayal, which again - a messy dynamic to have with your therapist, when someone like Andrew is putting TOO much value on them & their regard. And we’ve already seen this in regard to Andrew & Betsy - Aaron speculates that Andrew didn’t want to come out to Betsy b/c he was worried about her having a negative reaction/potentially rejecting him for being gay.
(It's one thing for Neil to unabashedly take Andrew's side when he's not meant to be a neutral party. It's another for Betsy to do so).
I think it would also be interesting if more Fanon explored Betsy not always giving Andrew the Most Perfect Advice ever - sometimes even therapists get shit wrong. Moreover, we know from Nora in the EC that if Neil had died, not even Betsy would have been able to get through to Andrew. As a therapist, Betsy might try to discourage Andrew's obvious codependent attachment to a romantic partner as Something To Build His Life Around, and I don't think Andrew would want to hear all of that, haha, even though I think he would also be hurt if such sentiments came from Betsy.
Andrew is often characterized as not caring what other people think about him, however, we know he cared about what Cass Spear thought about him (and tried to protect her from knowing about her son being a pedophile) and it’s also heavily implied that Andrew has started to care about what Betsy thinks about him (and therefore didn’t want her to know that he was gay).
We also know that Andrew himself didn’t tell Betsy about his CSA - and so far she still only knows of Drake & only Neil knows about Andrew’s sexually abusive foster home from when he was 7. And while we don’t see the “Andrew going out for milkshakes with Betsy after Aaron’s trial” in Jean & Jeremy’s books, it was something Nora mentioned in the EC. The problem is “going out for milkshakes” (something you might do with a loved one to feel better) and “receiving therapy for trauma resulting from CSA” are not the same thing.
Furthermore, Andrew hiding shit from Betsy so she continues to have a “good opinion” of him or to “protect her” from his dark history starts to become eerily similar to Andrew’s dynamic with Cass Spear. Andrew cannot be prioritizing Betsy, his therapist, while receiving treatment. Moreover, Andrew seemed uncomfortable talking about even consensual sex with Neil in front of Betsy - and I’ve seen some Fanon have Andrew go to Betsy for sex advice/talk about sex with Betsy, but the problem here is: while someone may be able to talk about sex in a detached way with their therapist, it’s a lot more difficult to talk about sex with someone you view as your mother. Especially for someone like Andrew, who has trauma associated with incest. Muddling the lines of “doctor who is emotionally removed from the situation as to not make things awkward” and “woman who I’m staring to view as the only good mother I’ve ever had” is going to make talking about sex far more difficult than it needs to be, and frankly Andrew DOES need a safe space to talk about sex in.
Now - do I think Betsy is a good therapist for Andrew? Again, I believe we are meant to read Betsy as a good therapist for Andrew. She is his 13th therapist (which I do find to be an interesting parallel to Cass Spear being Andrew’s 13th Foster Mother) and is meant to be the only therapist Andrew has ever liked or gotten attached to. I believe she does provide a safe space for Andrew to express himself & talk about himself without fear of judgment or reprisal. The big contrast between Betsy & Abby is that Abby demonstrates fear in regard to Andrew, which Andrew picks up on and resents Abby for (this is especially present in the EC Bonus scene of Abby reacting to Andrew’s self-harm scars) whereas Betsy is not afraid of Andrew, nor does she ever act disgusted by him or judgmental towards him. Andrew is a very interesting character in the sense that while he WANTS people to be afraid of him, he also doesn’t seem to respect people who ARE immediately afraid of him, especially if he hasn’t given them to a reason to be afraid (yet). This is also why Andrew becomes more interested in Neil when Neil starts fighting back against him.
However, I think Fanon definitely exaggerates the mental health help Betsy provides Andrew thought TFC, TRK and TKM. For one, Andrew is not in therapy voluntarily, y’all. Attending therapy is part of his probation, meaning he’s court-mandated to attend (just like with taking his medication) or he will be arrested and sent to jail. I’ve seen a lot of posts that mention how “seriously” Andrew takes his mental health/mental health recovery, and canonically that isn’t true. If it wasn’t for being arrested & then therapy + being drugged out of his mind being part of his probation, Andrew would have never spoken to Betsy. Like Aaron, he would have remained completely silent during the Foxes-mandated twice a year meetings, and then never would have visited her again. In fact, for almost entirely the FIRST year of Betsy treating Andrew, he never seriously interacts with her. He spends a lot of that time testing her & waiting for her to trip up.
We know from Son Nefes/the EC that Andrew first begins calling Betsy after that major fight with Kevin where Andrew threatens to break his own hand/doesn’t return to the court for a month, b/c the stress of Andrew entering into his deal with Kevin/Kevin’s expectations for him cause Andrew to snap. Andrew then begins calling Betsy/texting her, and builds up more of a personal relationship with her. However, I would argue that this relationship is not based on Betsy really providing Andrew with mental health treatment, but with Andrew beginning to view her as a pseudo-mother or a “Cass” replacement
(especially b/c Nora says the only reason Andrew is able to throw out Cass’s letter post-Aaron’s trial is b/c of his relationship with Betsy, which I would argue isn’t really Andrew moving on from Cass or addressing his traumatic relationship with mothers throughout his life: Tilda, Cass, his other foster mothers who abused him or let him be sexually abused by their husbands/sons, but projecting his desire for the “perfect mother” onto Betsy, who as we remember, is being PAID to interact with Andrew. A big part of the Betsy & Andrew dynamic that needs to be acknowledged is that for Besty, Andrew is part of her JOB. One of hundreds of clients/patients, whereas Andrew views Betsy as having a special place in his life, and while Betsy can return that sentiment, like I outlined above, her doing so would create a lot of problems for the other Foxes she is currently treating).
We also know canonically Andrew never confides in Betsy about his CSA or presumably anything involving his childhood abuse. Betsy finds out at Thanksgiving alongside the rest of the Foxes, and if the incident with Drake had never happened, there is a chance Andrew would never have told her. And I believe this is because Andrew is not looking to Betsy to help him overcome his childhood trauma, his rape, or any of his mental health issues in regard to abandonment, codependency, etc., (in fact, Andrew’s basically replicating everything he does with other people outside of therapy with Betsy). Betsy’s perspective suggests she believes Andrew would let her help him b/c Andrew doesn’t immediately shut her out after being raped as an adult.
However, Andrew himself doesn’t seem interested in the mental health treatment Betsy offers as a therapist, but what she provides as a pseudo-mother. Companionship, motherly concern, a shared love of sugar & chocolate, hobbies they can do together - watching musicals, running marathons - feeling loved, basically. We know from the EC that when Betsy has a heart attack, Andrew’s concern for her causes a break in his emotional apathy - he shouts at her in the hospital room, raids her house for chocolate, and then runs a marathon with her to help with HER health. He is taking care of her in a personal way (and this might no longer happen in the canonical novels especially b/c it should occur during Neil’s second year/Jean’s novels unless it happens in TBC or TQG) but I think this highlights what Fanon has picked-up on regarding Betsy & Andrew’s dynamic: there are elements of mother/son there versus therapist/patient, I just don’t think both can co-exist at the same time in a way that would actually be ideal or without narrative conflict. Andrew cannot prioritise Betsy, his therapist, & his mental health at the same time.
A lot of readers find Andrew & Betsy adorable because of their potential mother-son bond. They believe Andrew deserves a loving mother because all of his other mother-figures were neglectful and abusive. However, Betsy cannot be Andrew’s mother and his therapist. She is currently being paid by the University of Palmetto to provide Andrew with medical treatment. Her interacting with him is part of her job. Sometimes people also have Betsy acting as Andrew’s therapist after he graduates, however, for Betsy to be Andrew’s therapist after he graduates, he would have to hire her himself & pay for her services, which obviously isn’t addressed because that would be the antithesis of “Betsy as Andrew’s Loving Mother.” If Betsy ISN’T Andrew’s therapist after he graduates, and they are meant to have a more personal relationship, Andrew still treating her like a therapist would be… odd. You wouldn’t treat your mother or a friend like a therapist because that would be callous. You don’t have to care about your therapists personal life, being a shoulder for them, helping the, etc.,. You should care for your mother or pseudo-mother, or even an older woman you happen to be friends with. [Betsy is also somehow always available to answer Andrew's phone calls in Fanon/Fic, even in the middle of the night, which I think in Canon he mainly texts her because expecting Betsy to somehow be awake & Therapist Ready at 2AM is practically nonsensical & also once again demonstrates a complete lack of any kind of boundaries, which some do actually exist in Canon].
So, I suppose what I’m trying to say is that I think “Mama Bee” has the potential to be really interesting, just not in the way Fanon often treats it. Canon gets a bit of a pass because a lot of the “Mama Bee” stuff is from the EC and can be ignored, and in Canon, Betsy does primarily just exist to be a therapist. However, I would find “Mama Bee” to be a lot more interesting if the problematic aspects of it were engaged with & explored, instead of just treating it as pure fluff. The “what-could-have-been” aspect actually has the potential to be wonderfully tragic in regard to Andrew having a glimpse of what having a mother could be, while also acknowledging that Betsy cannot actually be his mother in their current circumstances and that if she were, their history as doctor/patient would continue to colour everything between them (a lot of Andrew's narrative is about institutional abuse: the foster care system, the criminal justice system, the health care system, and Betsy when not handled properly basically becomes part of that).
Lastly, I do think that trying to have Betsy fulfill both roles as “Andrew’s Perfect Therapist” and “Andrew’s Perfect Mother” just doesn’t work. She either has to be one or the other - and even then she certainly wouldn’t be “perfect” by any means - and the actual complicated messiness of trying to navigating such a relationship/relationship change ought to be explored more.
mary-neil being intricically codependent on each other, but having a clearly toxic love/hate obsession where the other is their EVERYTHING, from their meaning to destruction of self, neil definitely accidentally slipped into a substitute-husband role on the run, but mainly bc he looks so much like nathan (mary trying to change him in every way possible to not only make them invisible, but also in a desperate attempt in changing "nathan" when her actual husband never would). neil mourning mary's possible-self in his life and the survival she gave him, but also celebrating being rid off the punishment of existing "wrong" enough to be used as a weapon in an abusive marriage by both parties. the emotional incest of it all most likely drove both of them up the wall, but there was no one else they would let near bc of mary's paranoia. the tragedy of mary-neil is always gonna leave me stare at a wall
this is why mary neil would make a wonderful american roadtrip gothic novel. the concept of neil being punished for being her abusive husband is top tier imo, and i do think its one of the reasons neil sleeps facing the wall and puts his contacts in immediately upon waking up. which btw is a crazy thing to do when his roommate isn't even on the same level as him. like his excuse is to keep matt from finding out but matt literally sleeps in the bunk DIRECTLY BELOW him. it would not be hard for neil to avoid eye contact and just. put his contacts in in the bathroom. which makes me think this is a leftover habit from when he shared a bed with mary. like i Do think she hated his eyes that much and that this is a form of punishment for nathan while using neil as a proxy.
that being said this is a more ambiguous example but their enmeshment IS also extremely textual. like neil's love interest is compared to his mother multiple times but you can't point this out without some idiot saying you are a freak ☝️ like i do think if mary and neil were genderswapped the emotional incest would become a LOT clearer to people especially when it comes to mary's control of neil's sexuality. if a man was beating his daughter to keep her a virgin / "safe from the danger of other men" while sleeping in the same bed as her up to the age of 16/17 (and presumably would've continued without the premature death) i think this aspect of their relationship would be WAYYYY more discussed.
Would like to preface this post by sending alot of love to all the ships in the aftg fandom. Literally anything works here and I love that for us. I will, however, be using kevaaron as an example for what I'm about to say so pleasedonthateme (love you guys, you're chill i promise).
I personally find it kind of wild that we as a society are so attached to romance just *having* to occur in our characters' lives that instead of choosing the very fun, available, and actually pretty logical aro/ace option for kevin, we would rather just completely ignore the fact that aaron is already in an intensely loving relationship with katelyn just so kevin can 'finally have the romance he deserves and is not tied to failed situationships.' As a person on the aro spectrum myself, I can confidently say that yes, you can truly not have any romantic feelings for someone and still decide to commit your all to ensuring that they have a better life. Kevin clearly loves and cares about Neil, Andrew, Jean, and Jeremy (and did/does for Riko), but that could easily just be in a very platonic way. YOU CAN YEARN PLATONICALLY!! And yes, it is just as intense as romantic feelings. Romantic and Platonic love are both *types* of love, not a hierarchy.
Kevin being on the aro spectrum does not necessarily have to negate the fact that he still is in Andreil's (and Jerejean's) orbit. It's about the types of love, again. Kevin could love them dearly, but platonically. This doesn't negate the very obvious kandreil (and past kevjean holy shit this man has so many bitches) crumbs in general as well. I do very much believe that Andrew genuinely could have wanted Kevin romantically/sexually/both. Same as Jean did. I raise you this: Kevin loves them both just as hard, it just simply does not necessarily have to be romantic??? Like do you see my point? And so then people choosing Aaron as the other option because hey, Kevin doesn't have past traumatic ties to him the same way he does to literally every other guy, just confuses me. Like pleaseplease Katelyn is rightttt there. The only person that Aaron openly shows affection to (other than his obvious care towards his family). The only person that finally got him to fight back against Andrew's rules. So I guess my point is why are you looking for a love interest for Kevin so hard? My pitch for the Kevin series is Kevin/himself because fuck. that guy has issues. Also I do know that this isn't the logic behind all kevaaron shippers- but it sure does feel like a replacement to Andrew for some, you know? Like if it was Seth, Matt, or Allison, I could see the vision. I say this purely because Kevin has had bitch battles with all of them during the series. Aaron mostly just keeps to himself and Katelyn- only ever seems to interact with his immediate family. So it's like. Instead of looking for that just because kandrew didn't end up working, perhaps look for more interesting options, such as... aro Kevin!! Listen you guys it would explain so much. He *did* love Riko back, it just was not romantic. That is why his heartbreak over him is so great, and why he could not accept what had been done to him. Perhaps he blames himself for giving the wrong signs and having Riko believe that it was truly 'just them.' He also definitely is VERY attached to andrew and neil respectively and would do so much just to see them live the lives they deserve. Same with Jean and Jeremy. Same with why people are going insane over him 'not giving Jean what he deserved'. Jean wanted Kevin. Kevin wanted a happy Jean. Him not committing romantically to Jean does not mean that he didn't love him just as much- he *did*. It just wasn't romantic. He still looks at him with care (cooking scene), he still gave him over to the trojans knowing that it would improve his future. And for all you assholes thinking that kevin puts exy above his friends- he could have brought Jean over to the foxes- he's a *great* backliner after all. Number 3, helloooo? But no, he chose to give him the life best suited for him.
Anyways, I say all of this not to slander any shippers. It's a free for all, and sorry if this came weirdly targeted at kevaaron lol it's just the most popular non-kandreil and kerejean ship atm. The logic behind those ships is just what confuses me at times, and I say this genuinely and without the intention to offend. Let people have fun, of course, but also... think about how much more fun any of those ships would be with an added layer of aro kevin!! Could also explain the whys of why he seems so intricately tied into our main couples of the series, but not romantically involved.
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Kind of drives me nuts when people act like Neil was in denial about his attraction to Andrew. Like when they go 'lmao neil being obsessed with andrew's arms and how he feels like he can lean on andrew and he alone can hold him up and this boy thought it meant nothing' 'neil was out here having gay thoughts and didn't even know it'
Guys....no. Just noticing that someone is strong does not equal sexual attraction. Neil clocks how short Andrew is too but no one calls that repressed sexuality. Feeling like you can rely on someone does not mean a romantic relationship. Neil didn't think it wasn't romantic or sexual. It wasn't romantic or sexual. Guys we are IN HIS HEAD. He is flat out telling us how he feels and what he's thinking. Repressing something requires knowledge of the thing to repress. If you want to see what it looks like when Nora writes a character who's repressing something, look at how Jean is thinking about Jeremy. Plus, we know what it looks like when Neil is attracted to someone. We actually get to see when Neil's view of Andrew starts to shift and as his romantic and sexual attraction starts to pick up. Look at how he first describes Andrew vs how describes him on the bus in the final book.
Demisexuality is not just repression of secret homosexuality. Demisexuality is it's own thing and it bothers me to see people talking about it this way
Great point about Demisexuality ≠ repressed homosexuality!
Neil doesn't repress, at all. Zero internalised homophobia in Neil's head. Once he realises that he's into Andrew, Neil is ALL in.
Also, we don't have to say that Neil is repressing sexual feelings to say that Neil has a crush on Andrew that he doesn't notice at first. For example, the enormous amount of attention that Neil starts paying Andrew - to what Andrew is doing, what he's saying, what expressions he pulls in reaction to events, to why Andrew might be doing/saying/reacting in these ways - is a sign of Neil's crush. Neil suddenly noticing and commenting on how strong Andrew is (and how intelligent he is, how good his theories and strategies are, how fearless he is, how unmovable, how good at Exy, how good he is at protecting his family) is Neil crushing on Andrew, even if he doesn't realise it. Neil is absolutely not suppressing any sexual attraction attached with these observations - but they aren't platonic "friend" observations, either. Neil is admiring features of Andrew's that he likes, and he's relating them to how Andrew interacts with Neil. He values Andrew's strength of character and now he's suddenly finding himself much more interested in seeing examples of Andrew's strength, in all senses. He becomes obsessed with getting and keeping Andrew's attention, especially by making Andrew feel and by making him "lose control". And Neil himself has a hard time explaining all of his Andrew-related behaviour, because he doesn't yet understand that he's experiencing romantic feelings.
This is a crush, demisexual style. Neil's romantic feelings may not be accompanied by sexual feelings and they might not be the same as how an allosexual person feels a crush, but they are romantic. And I think it's fine to gently tease Neil for crushing on Andrew without realising it, precisely because Neil's way of crushing is still a completely legitimate way of crushing. He doesn't have to be having sexual fantasies for it to count and for us to make fun of him. It IS very cute that Neil sleeps with Andrew's knives under his pillow to keep them safe, despite having an actual locked safe in his room, and doesn't realise that he has a crush. It IS funny that Neil picks up Andrew's cigarette from the ground and puts it in his mouth while narrating that he "wasn't sure why" he did it or why it felt like a victory. And it IS romantic that Neil voluntarily goes to get tortured for 2 weeks straight to protect Andrew, as symbolic representation of him finally having let someone in enough that he would put them above his own safety.
Obsessed with how Nora wrote Neil a beautiful love story where his demisexuality is something that his partner loves about him and which brings both of them joy.
Neil being demisexual is literally perfect for Andrew. When they first meet, Neil "not swinging" gives Andrew assurance that Neil won't be sexually interested, which allows Andrew to feel safe enough to eventually become close to Neil. I think that Andrew's fear of being the object of sexual attention is partly why he exclusively spends time with people who won't develop sexual desire towards him (the monsters: his relatives + a straight dude; and Renee, from whom he extracts the reassurance that "I don't kiss heathens").
Then, once Andrew gets close to Neil and starts developing feelings for him, Andrew ALSO gets the reassurance that Neil actually does swing. For him, specifically. And Neil's swinging is nothing to do with the physical features of Andrew's body or with Andrew being available and willing. Instead, Neil values and loves the parts of him that Andrew himself has already offered Neil. This couldn't be more perfect for Andrew! Neil is a pipedream. A man for whom loving and respecting Andrew as a person is a precondition for even wanting to touch; a man who won't ever push Andrew to cross a boundary, because his own desires are completely enmeshed with his love for Andrew. Andrew has won the lottery of life.
And for Neil, too, his demisexuality is overwhelmingly a positive thing. It means that Neil doesn't have his head turned when it would have been dangerous for him. Instead he falls for a man who makes him feel safe and cared for. In fact, Neil himself acknowledges this when he first decides to kiss Andrew, reasoning that "the idea of Andrew was so intertwined with the idea of Neil's safety that this too was a means of self-preservation". Also, once Neil recognises what he feels for Andrew, he never has reason to doubt it. Neil doesn't get casual crushes, so he knows that what he feels is The Real Deal.
Anyway, this is beautiful to me. Just the fact that aftg has a demisexual protagonist who finds love is amazing, but then that Nora also gives him someone who doesn't treat Neil's demisexuality as a burden or an obstacle or something to tolerate... that she writes his demisexuality as foundational for the main romance of the books, as fantastic for both Neil and for the man that he loves... infinite applause.
neil reaching over to touch andrew's heart before neil gets lost in his more brutally violent memories is so so precious to me what do you MEAN.
in every way neil is kept grounded by andrew by physical touch. andrew stepping closer to neil and taking his weight, andrew's hand on the back of his neck, and now, neil reaches out to him for that comfort even though he knows it "crosses a precarious line" and andrew lets it be
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Andrew Blur is so hilariously bad at conducting His Investigations which is both funny and tragic given that is his sole reason for being in Nashville. [I had originally put this under this post by @fickt but they haven't finished the book and don't want to jumpscare them with spoilers!]
My favourite example is when Sam offers to show him where Eddie's body was found and Andrew is all " ?? How do YOU know where his body was found?!?!" And Sam is like ".....er, I asked?". As the reader you are suddenly smacked with the realisation that Andrew not only didn't know where Eddie's body was found, but also that he never thought to ask. It literally never occurs to him, until Sam brings it up. Andrew doesn't know where, when or how Eddie died, he doesn't know where his body was found.
Andrew is consumed with motive - why? Why was Eddie murdered? He frames his question as a Practical Detective Murder-Investigation question and tells himself that he's systematically narrowing down the suspect pool by identifying who would have reason to kill Eddie. But this pretence is just a shield - Andrew's question is really an all-consuming existential question. His pathetic attempt at "investigation" is really the equivalent of Andrew standing on a windswept cliff screaming "WHY???" through tears at the top of his voice.
I think this also comes across in how others treat Andrew's efforts. Riley, Sam and West only let him get away with it because he doesn't tell them what he's really doing / they think all of these questions are Andrew's way of processing grief. And in fact, when the friends DO realise that Andrew is right about Eddie being murdered and a real investigation is required, they quickly try to take the investigation off his hands and start directing it (either to help or to try and stop it, in Sam's case!). Riley even says something like "no offense Andrew but you are not good at this, let me do it!"
The other thing is that Andrew isn't really investigating Eddie's death, so much as investigating Eddie's life. Andrew is dealing with grief twice over: grief at losing Eddie, and the deep gnawing terror that he perhaps had already lost Eddie, even before Eddie died. Who is this man that takes coke at parties and lies about research projects to keep Andrew away from him? Who is this man, and had he abandoned Andrew even before someone cut Eddie's wrists to force them apart forever?
This is the question that Andrew desperately desperately wants answers to. And this question (so Andrew thinks) doesn't actually require Andrew to know any practical details about Eddie's death, like the who, what, when, how. Instead Andrew wants to know - what was Eddie doing? Who was he seeing? What was his life like? What was his life like and was it a life that didn't need Andrew anymore? This is why Andrew's Investigations boil down to him role-playing at being Eddie and eyeing up every single person who ever talked to Eddie with jealousy, suspicion and resentment. Yeah, Andrew wants to know who murdered Eddie - and yeah, Andrew's grief-induced stupor makes him terrible at it - but really he wants to know who Eddie was, whether he still loved Andrew, and WHY (why why why) the fuck has he left Andrew all alone in the world for all eternity.
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now that I'm almost halfway through: the best part so far of summer sons by lee mandelo is that andrew is soooooo bad at everything. he's obsessed with finding out what happened to eddie, he's so extremely serious about it that he literally never smiles and laughs one time in the book so far (despite trying to get close to people in order to find out more), he takes his investigation so so seriously that it's the only thing he thinks about for like 2 solid weeks before he gets distracted for a literal moment. but he also has no idea where to start, how to question people, what to ask, what to research, he ignores the biggest piece of the puzzle and doesn't acknowledge that it could give him answers, he starts taking notes on his investigation 3 weeks after starting and it's just a bullet list with 4 possible leads, and then gets called out by the people he's trying to stealthily investigate!!!!!! someone literally tells him "we all met up last night to talk about you, we compared notes" 😭😭😭😭
i know everyone jokes about neil having an exy kink, but can i just remind you of:
The racquets were arranged by numbers, a pair for each player with Neil's at the end. Neil unhooked one and gave it a slow spin, testing the weight and feel of it in his hand. It was dark orange with a single white stripe at the base of the head and white rope netting. It smelled brand new and felt like a dream, and it was all he could do to keep from smashing the taut net against his face.
he's such a fucking freak 😭 im obsessed w him. he gets an exy racquet that's better than the one he had in millport and he's like. god i need to shove my face in that. genuinely has the impulse to be anything but normal and has to resist it bc he's in front of other people. do we think he gave into the urge later when he was alone and just didn't tell us about it narratively. i do. i think that. neil josten, biggest freak out of all the foxes, and i will die on that hill
