Imogell

Is literally about bringing everyone back and judging them for a final decision on where they will end up right? A LOT OF LAZARII miracles required? Plus the demons end up powerless in a lake of fire for eternity I believe. Because - unforgivable, amirite?

So everyone was dead at the end of S3...

And S3 went for the - ok so let's do Second Coming new Earth but WITH all the suffering. (There was supposed to be new Earth and new Heaven with no suffering after Second Coming, forever I believe.)

Why?

Why not bring everyone back the same as Adam did? Let people and the universe live out its time. And angels, demons, souls could have been brought back too: Look er, you are free. Here's a whole Universe, it's pretty large, find something to do. Don't start any wars. (In the credits, Star Wars theme starts, or something.)

Jesus was meant to orchestrate all that Second Coming business. So why didn't he? Why didn't they get Aziraphale and Crowley to talk to him? Why didn't Crowley go for the usual - there doesn't have to be any wa- sides. What was even the purpose of 'waking Jesus up'? Why wasn't he aware of what happened after his sacrifice? Why didn't he get to face Mother?

It's just so extremely unsatisfying.

Every day I find new ways to hate the Finale.

Anyway, read my fix it here if you like. Or my before GO3 S2 fix-it - which DID have everyone coming together to tell God off.

Also, if they wanted a sacrifice, I did once write a tiny story about that.

The thing is, I know where the tendency comes from - it’s easy to focus on Crowley’s way of showing affection (aka acts of service) more since it’s more visible at first sight, more obvious to an outsider. But some people tend to follow this fact with the conclusion that it’s therefore stronger than Aziraphale’s way of showing affection for some reason. And. I can’t help but think that it’s pretty unfair to Aziraphale’s struggles. Because he not only has different ways of showing affection than Crowley to begin with, but also is much more repressed and conflicted about their relationship than Crowley is. (And Crowley knows it! That’s the point, Crowley remembers Heaven, he was there once. He’s patient because he understands.)

Aziraphale’s way of showing affection is less visible for people on the outside and much more intimate. It’s easy to underestimate how hard it is to leave your comfort zone for someone, which is what he does all the time, because it’s less showy. But it’s not right. And if someone wants to feel sorry for Crowley for having to be patient then it only seems to be fair to also feel sorry for Aziraphale for being so torn between Crowley and Heaven. But that’s the best part - for both of them commitment to the relationship comes with a price, but they still choose to do it anyway. Over the years they really learned each other, even if Aziraphale won’t admit to it and instead will say “I am an angel, you are a demon”. He’s not stupid. They both understand each other’s language and know what certain things mean.

Someone on here (I’ll be damned if I remember where I read it, sorry) described their dynamic as Aziraphale inviting Crowley to invite him and it’s so accurate. That’s exactly what he does, not because he’s too lazy/reluctant/whatever to commit, but because he’s too conflicted with himself to make a direct move. But instead he lets Crowley know that if Crowley asks, he will say yes and it’s So Important. Because Aziraphale seems passive when in reality he makes a huge effort to dance around all his dilemmas. And the fact that Crowley doesn’t have those dilemmas doesn’t make them any more valid.

Their relationship is difficult to quantify because it’s 6000 years old. They don’t need to guess anymore, they know each other, and the thing is, Crowley isn’t stupid. Tempting people is literally his job. But to be able to tempt people you have to be able to read people. 

Crowley knows full well that Aziraphale wants to spend time with him. He knew that when Aziraphale chose to take part in the Arrangement. He knew that when Aziraphale gave him the Holy Water. When Azirphale didn’t abandon him after he delivered the Antichrist. When they drink and dine and meet up together. That’s Aziraphale’s language of love: time. He has a literal limitless supply.

Crowley even takes his glasses, his barrier to the world, off around Aziraphale. That does not indicate someone who’s insecure about their angel friend being scared off by reminders of their demonic essence. Crowley is absolutely not insecure in his relationship (however you define it) with Aziraphale. 

What we see on screen with the ‘we can run away together’ and trying to go to Alpha Centauri is not insecurity that Aziraphale doesn’t love him, it’s sheer panic that they have to act now and if they don’t they are going to die along with the whole of Earth because he fucked up. 

That’s not an ‘I’m scared he doesn’t love me’ reaction, that’s a ‘we are going to die and need to get away now’ reaction. Crowley is terrified, [and to be honest, if I’d just double-crossed and lied to Satan’s face for eleven years, I’d be pretty scared too], and all he’s thinking is ‘we need to  go.’

But the thing is, whatever pain he felt, he worked through it a long time ago. Every plan to force the issue, he abandoned because he knew it wasn’t right. Every argument, even the big one in the 1860s, they eventually made their peace and moved forward.

Crowley’s peace with it all, his patience, is so absolutely clear in his reaction to the “get three behind me foul fiend!” comment.

He isn’t hurt, or angry or surprised. There’s no sting to it. There’s a weariness there (oh this shit again *yawn*) but also an amusement (oh this shit again.. ha! You are cute when you lie, angel- you really think you believe this shit don’t you? You silly thing…). He’s just rolling with the punches and seems content to keep doing so until Aziraphale works it through.

And that’s the difference between a normal, human slow burn and the Ineffable 6,000 Year Slow Burn.

The regrets, the ticking clock on human relationships, comes from the possibility of missed opportunities. How many of those can you truly say there are when both parties are immortal?

There will always be another sunset to watch together, another restaurant to dine at. There will be more ducks to feed.

It does make you wonder what the real regrets would be. Things like, “I wish we could have shared the view from the walls of Troy.”

They never could have had more than they did???

Aziraphale loved Crowley fiercely and protectively. He made them a home where Crowley was safe! He pulled back when Crowley was pushing too far and too fast and Crowley did the same! In Bastille and in 1941.

Aziraphale never seems passive to me. Neither does his love. He shows it with trust (“I gave it away!”) and all the times they meet he does again. If he didn’t love Crowley why would he put himself in danger?

Hell would not have cared Crowley hang out with an angel, he could excuse it in million ways, tempting him etc. What did Aziraphale have? Fear that they will be discovered and punished. And we know he was right. Michael immediately checks files when they suspect Aziraphale is working with Hell.

Honestly I am baffled that so many people think that Crowley’s love is clearer than Aziraphale’s. To me, Aziraphale’s love and protectiveness are so much more obvious.

Also, I think they were hurt exactly the same by the fact that they could not be together. It’s not just 'poor Crowley’, aw so patient.

Why is everyone treating Crowley as the main character? Stop it.

He’s just rolling with the punches and seems content to keep doing so until Aziraphale works it through.

No. Aziraphale and Crowley are playing games, EQUAL games. They know they cannot have more. BOTH of them. Crowley is not waiting for Aziraphale to catch up. Aziraphale calls him foul fiend because he needs to add a layer of 'technically’, a plausible deniability.

What do people think about their relationship anyway? This? That Aziraphale could have just dropped 'Heaven’ at any time and move in with Crowley? That their sides and jobs and god would just LET THEM?

Anyway, if you are interested:

The thing is, I know where the tendency comes from - it’s easy to focus on Crowley’s way of showing affection (aka acts of service) more since it’s more visible at first sight, more obvious to an outsider. But some people tend to follow this fact with the conclusion that it’s therefore stronger than Aziraphale’s way of showing affection for some reason. And. I can’t help but think that it’s pretty unfair to Aziraphale’s struggles. Because he not only has different ways of showing affection than Crowley to begin with, but also is much more repressed and conflicted about their relationship than Crowley is. (And Crowley knows it! That’s the point, Crowley remembers Heaven, he was there once. He’s patient because he understands.)

Aziraphale’s way of showing affection is less visible for people on the outside and much more intimate. It’s easy to underestimate how hard it is to leave your comfort zone for someone, which is what he does all the time, because it’s less showy. But it’s not right. And if someone wants to feel sorry for Crowley for having to be patient then it only seems to be fair to also feel sorry for Aziraphale for being so torn between Crowley and Heaven. But that’s the best part - for both of them commitment to the relationship comes with a price, but they still choose to do it anyway. Over the years they really learned each other, even if Aziraphale won’t admit to it and instead will say “I am an angel, you are a demon”. He’s not stupid. They both understand each other’s language and know what certain things mean.

Someone on here (I’ll be damned if I remember where I read it, sorry) described their dynamic as Aziraphale inviting Crowley to invite him and it’s so accurate. That’s exactly what he does, not because he’s too lazy/reluctant/whatever to commit, but because he’s too conflicted with himself to make a direct move. But instead he lets Crowley know that if Crowley asks, he will say yes and it’s So Important. Because Aziraphale seems passive when in reality he makes a huge effort to dance around all his dilemmas. And the fact that Crowley doesn’t have those dilemmas doesn’t make them any more valid.

Their relationship is difficult to quantify because it’s 6000 years old. They don’t need to guess anymore, they know each other, and the thing is, Crowley isn’t stupid. Tempting people is literally his job. But to be able to tempt people you have to be able to read people. 

Crowley knows full well that Aziraphale wants to spend time with him. He knew that when Aziraphale chose to take part in the Arrangement. He knew that when Aziraphale gave him the Holy Water. When Azirphale didn’t abandon him after he delivered the Antichrist. When they drink and dine and meet up together. That’s Aziraphale’s language of love: time. He has a literal limitless supply.

Crowley even takes his glasses, his barrier to the world, off around Aziraphale. That does not indicate someone who’s insecure about their angel friend being scared off by reminders of their demonic essence. Crowley is absolutely not insecure in his relationship (however you define it) with Aziraphale. 

What we see on screen with the ‘we can run away together’ and trying to go to Alpha Centauri is not insecurity that Aziraphale doesn’t love him, it’s sheer panic that they have to act now and if they don’t they are going to die along with the whole of Earth because he fucked up. 

That’s not an ‘I’m scared he doesn’t love me’ reaction, that’s a ‘we are going to die and need to get away now’ reaction. Crowley is terrified, [and to be honest, if I’d just double-crossed and lied to Satan’s face for eleven years, I’d be pretty scared too], and all he’s thinking is ‘we need to  go.’

But the thing is, whatever pain he felt, he worked through it a long time ago. Every plan to force the issue, he abandoned because he knew it wasn’t right. Every argument, even the big one in the 1860s, they eventually made their peace and moved forward.

Crowley’s peace with it all, his patience, is so absolutely clear in his reaction to the “get three behind me foul fiend!” comment.

He isn’t hurt, or angry or surprised. There’s no sting to it. There’s a weariness there (oh this shit again *yawn*) but also an amusement (oh this shit again.. ha! You are cute when you lie, angel- you really think you believe this shit don’t you? You silly thing…). He’s just rolling with the punches and seems content to keep doing so until Aziraphale works it through.

And that’s the difference between a normal, human slow burn and the Ineffable 6,000 Year Slow Burn.

The regrets, the ticking clock on human relationships, comes from the possibility of missed opportunities. How many of those can you truly say there are when both parties are immortal?

There will always be another sunset to watch together, another restaurant to dine at. There will be more ducks to feed.

It does make you wonder what the real regrets would be. Things like, “I wish we could have shared the view from the walls of Troy.”

They never could have had more than they did???

Aziraphale loved Crowley fiercely and protectively. He made them a home where Crowley was safe! He pulled back when Crowley was pushing too far and too fast and Crowley did the same! In Bastille and in 1941.

Aziraphale never seems passive to me. Neither does his love. He shows it with trust (“I gave it away!”) and all the times they meet he does again. If he didn’t love Crowley why would he put himself in danger?

Hell would not have cared Crowley hang out with an angel, he could excuse it in million ways, tempting him etc. What did Aziraphale have? Fear that they will be discovered and punished. And we know he was right. Michael immediately checks files when they suspect Aziraphale is working with Hell.

Honestly I am baffled that so many people think that Crowley’s love is clearer than Aziraphale’s. To me, Aziraphale’s love and protectiveness are so much more obvious.

Also, I think they were hurt exactly the same by the fact that they could not be together. It’s not just 'poor Crowley’, aw so patient.

Why is everyone treating Crowley as the main character? Stop it.

He’s just rolling with the punches and seems content to keep doing so until Aziraphale works it through.

No. Aziraphale and Crowley are playing games, EQUAL games. They know they cannot have more. BOTH of them. Crowley is not waiting for Aziraphale to catch up. Aziraphale calls him foul fiend because he needs to add a layer of 'technically’, a plausible deniability.

What do people think about their relationship anyway? This? That Aziraphale could have just dropped 'Heaven’ at any time and move in with Crowley? That their sides and jobs and god would just LET THEM?

Anyway, if you are interested:

Crowley wants to run away from it all and Aziraphale turns away to cry.

and CROWLEY DIDN'T EVEN REACT WHEN AZIRAPHALE SAID THE MOST ROMANTIC LINE I HAVE EVER HEARD

If God already knows what you will do, is it still really a choice? TL;DR: What would be the point of running a universe where everything is fixed? I think the GO universe was more like an ant farm than a computer program.

Knowledge is not necessarily causation - knowing something will happen is not the same thing as forcing it to happen. The theological idea is usually that God knows everything because she exists outside of time. Or that's the theory anyway. It would be pretty boring to start a deterministic universe where everything happens exactly as expected (like in my opinion, the universe Asa and Anthony seemed to get?).

I'm saying this because I've seen people discuss that God "shipped" Aziraphale and Crowley or that she planned that they will fall in love. I don't think so.

God says Aziraphale’s love was predictable. But honestly, I would say that too.

Not because Aziraphale was compelled, but because this is who he is. Because of how deeply he cares. Because of the way he always admired Crowley, from the beginning.

If I know what someone will do because I understand them deeply, that does not mean I am making them do it.

The - you could never have had him - was on her though. She could have stopped the farce with the two sides and the 6000 years and the animosity and Aziraphale at some point even hoped she might if he can reason with her.

But she's not the reasonable kind I don't think, nor trustworthy - which is why I absolutely do not understand Crowley's choice to trust she will fulfil his wish.

No matter the fear, doctrine, punishment, or uncertainty, Aziraphale kept choosing to love Crowley. Freely. As freely as anyone can choose to love. Even when people accuse him of not loving well enough.

I think Aziraphale did everything he could.

He kept them alive. He gave Crowley a bright spot in his life. A home. An anchor.

Aziraphale’s love is almost the opposite of determinism.

It’s a moral constancy via a free choice because the safer option would have been to stay away. To forget Crowley. To follow rules. To obey orders. And that's not who Aziraphale ever was. Aziraphale always went as far he had to with Heaven and no further. Just like Crowley said. He did what he could otherwise.

God created Aziraphale though (and Crowley) so aren't they just her dolls to pull strings on?

Well. No. Unless she created a fully deterministic universe as I said. (Which, to be fair, is something philosophers explore even without God. Just ask Laplace’s Demon - and I'd love to explore this but this is already getting long.)

The Ineffables have a discussion regarding Adam right? Will they be able to influence who he is via upbringing? What actually shapes us? Is it genetics? Is it the people around us? Is it just fate?

I think Good Omens lands firmly on environment and connection mattering more than anything. What ultimately cements Adam’s decision is his love for his friends, his family, and Tadfield itself.

But Adam still made a choice. The three card shuffle made a mistake because Crowley did. And Adam refused to end the world. He was offered absolute power. The chance to rule everything. To destroy everything and begin again.

And he said no!

He chose humanity instead. He chose trying to make things better rather than throwing the world away.

(Do I have to bring in here how nonsensical I see the ending of GO3 again?)

Aziraphale may have been created compassionate, curious, gentle, loving, but those traits don’t force every action. And anyway, he's also sassy and a bit of a bastard, stubborn and fierce and disobedient.

It was just a bad dream after all

Have you heard about that terrible story in the Good Omens finale? Ugh, I know, right? Scary.

Everyone expected depressed Crowley in S3 because everyone expected Aziraphale made a big enormous stupid mistake by going to Heaven. The Book of Life was supposed to be made up. The job non existent. Aziraphale breaking them up for no good reason. Those were the main theories.

But that's not what happened. Aziraphale did become Supreme Archangel and he did stop Second Coming. He did have a good reason to go and he explains it too. If he had time (and help?) he might have even stopped Michael from getting hold of the Book of Life and destroying everything. If he wasn't relegated to just the side character, he might have made a difference to the ending.

My point being, Crowley is depressed in the finale because he gave up. They made him give up. Not because Aziraphale left. If Aziraphale stayed he would not be happier and Aziraphale knows that. Crowley must have known that. What would they be doing? Watching poor Jesus being paraded by Sandalphon, being forced to judge people on some random, arbitrary measures made up by Archangels who have no idea how Earth and humanity even work? Wait until Universe and Time is destroyed and only eternity remains? Crowley was depressed because the show decided that the universe is not worth saving, can't be changed and should be destroyed.

And I disagree with this Crowley and that ending.

The Crowley I know would have gone to help Aziraphale somehow. Like when he drove to Tadfield in a burning car after Aziraphale got accidentally discorporated and like he did when he realised missing Gabriel was not random and meant trouble.

Crowley knew Second Coming was on the cards and what it meant. He wouldn't have been blind drunk in an alley for years knowing Aziraphale is on his own, with all the awful Archangels who hate him and who tried to kill him in Heaven. He would have found a way.

They should have found Jesus and brought him along to argue with mother and fool her at her card trick. They should have brought along some humans who would look at them like they are crazy for suggesting to not bringing the universe back and fight for it. Mrs Sandwich should have unloaded that speech at god and not the angel who tried so hard to hold it all together.

They should have kissed against the bookshelf while Jesus and Adam decided to get rid of the sides once and for all, cross out what was written and let the universe run for as long as it felt like it.

[or: why I'm mad about how the writers characterized him]

I love Aziraphale to pieces okay. Precious, soft, doing his best, and must be protected. But I think his behavior sometimes shows a pattern of expecting things from his relationship with Crowley that he doesn't return and everyone has their own take on fandom and I think it's healthy to talk about it.

First point obviously: abandoning Crowley

It's not just Aziraphale thought he was making a sacrifice to do what's right. Crowley clearly needed him and was not subtle about telling him that. Absolute rock bottom depression for years. He is trying to communicate that need and Aziraphale point blank ignores every attempt to address it. Crowley is so clearly suffering this whole episode and there are things Aziraphale could have done to show some compassion even with his decision to choose heaven and he just kinda pretends he doesn't see any of it

Aziraphale's return to Earth. Practically the whole street is gone. Maggie and Nina, ostensibly members of the community he was invested in last season, have disappeared.

Queen Mrs Sandwich here to deliver some FRESH FACTS. She says a lot of direct stuff here and tells no lies. She can smell someone who only shows up when they want something on THEIR terms and THEIR terms only (precedent: she spotted Nina’s toxic relationship and her own toxic relationship with her sister)

He pointedly doesn't mention Crowley at all here. And Mrs Sandwich sees right through him. He was there when the community served him. Eccles cakes and records and the like. But when THEY needed HIM, he wasn't there. You don't abandon something you love

This feels like the most manipulative we've ever seen Aziraphale and I really don't like it (besides the whole arranging-a-ball-for-Maggie-and-Nina-thing lol but his intentions there were a lot less self-serving). He doesn't actually care about Jesus at all but he knows Crowley does. Crowley was kind to him. All the kingdoms of the world and such. So when Crowley doesn't want to do it for Aziraphale, he tries to leverage Jesus' wellbeing to convince him instead. And then picks up the "we both own the Bentley" thing again. But it's only ownership on Aziraphale's terms, when it suits him. When the Bentley was lost, Aziraphale wouldn't give half a thought until he needed Crowley to drive him again. It's giving 'divorced parent who doesn't pay child support then shows up and tries to claim shared custody.'

And then there was this forgiveness thing. I couldn't believe after all that business Aziraphale was now asking Crowley to forgive him. Why did he need to hear it so badly?? So he would feel better about the whole thing??? because he just gave forgiveness to Michael for doing irredeemable things and needs to know he isn't irredeemable either????????? Has Aziraphale done anything to address the way that Crowley, Whickber street, etc feel abandoned by him?? And Crowley doesn't want to do it. He literally spits out the words. Did Aziraphale ask because he knows Crowley can't say no to him, even if what Aziraphale is asking for will hurt Crowley (so then was he wrong to ask???) And they've never at all really talked about why it's so hard for Crowley to forgive him. Why he feels hurt by Aziraphale. They never once in the entire show talked properly about literally anything and I'm losing my mind

This scene was of course affectionate but I found it so tragic in how surprised Crowley was at everything Aziraphale said. Crowley acted like Aziraphale has never talked like this to him before, how would he know Aziraphale feels this way. For thousands of years, Crowley's gotten tacit disapproval, blatant rejections, and a single conditional acceptance of Crowley provided he became an angel again and pretended to be something he isn't and doesn't want to be. I do think Aziraphale sees no difference between Angel Crowley and Demon Crowley but I think Crowley does and Aziraphale has always just ignored it. Aziraphale wants to put Crowley back up in heaven because he thinks he belongs there but not wanting to be in/do things like heaven is the reason Crowley fell. Idk I think I just wanted a universe where Aziraphale could say this kind of stuff to Crowley as a demon, not Crowley as the once-shining-angel-Aziraphale-pretends-he-still-is. Myabe it's the whole 'unlinking goodness from heaven' thing that Aziraphale never really learned.

If Aziraphale has just realized/is deciding to embrace this conclusion, it is literally too little too late. (Cue "it's always too late" from 2x3) The actual end of themselves and reality is the absolute worst time for Aziraphale to finally choose him. This has always been the tragedy of their relationship. They can never choose each other at the right time, together. There were probably a dozen times in the past that Crowley needed Aziraphale to choose him and he didn't.

First point obviously: abandoning Crowley

Didn't Crowley abandon Aziraphale too? Didn't he walk away from him in F15? Twice? And why? Oh of course. Everything is pointless and needs to be destroyed. Gotcha.

It's not just Aziraphale thought he was making a sacrifice to do what's right.

It was a sacrifice and he WAS right.

Crowley clearly needed him and was not subtle about telling him that.

Yes? Where? Did he go to Heaven and say listen Aziraphale I miss you? Did he perhaps say - I know you must be having a shitty time, let me help you? DID he?

Absolute rock bottom depression for years.

Why? Because the author felt like it? Why would Aziraphale assume Crowley was at rock bottom? Crowley walked away and told Aziraphale it's over. No nightingales.

He is trying to communicate that need and Aziraphale point blank ignores every attempt to address it.

Where???

Crowley is so clearly suffering this whole episode and there are things Aziraphale could have done to show some compassion even with his decision to choose heaven and he just kinda pretends he doesn't see any of it

Is he? And Azirapahle is NOT suffering? Who is checking on Aziraphale? Because Aziraphale is at least trying to talk about what happened and Crowley just makes faces and does not even suggest he might have done something wrong too. That Crowley too has a say in why they've been separated. That he shouldn't have abandoned Aziraphale. That Aziraphale is right and they would not have been happy watching humanity suffer and end and they wouldn't have enjoyed whatever eternity came after.

Queen Mrs Sandwich here to deliver some FRESH FACTS.

Does she now? Is Aziraphale the fucking Mayor of Westminster? London? Is he the police? Monitoring the mafia or something? We don't even know what happened to the street? WHY DIDN'T CROWLEY look after it? Why didn't HE care about the renters? Oh yes, I forgot. He was drinking and gambling. That's absolutely understandable.

But Azirapahle going to save the world?

Right.

What a wanker.

Mrs Sandwich had no right to talk to Aziraphale like this. He went to save her from an awful end. AND HE DID.

Fucking taker. The angel who the gay capital of UK grew around. Who cared about humans in ways Crowley never did.

He was there when the community served him. Eccles cakes and records and the like. But when THEY needed HIM, he wasn't there. You don't abandon something you love

HE DID NOT ABANDON THEM. BUT YOU KNOW WHO DID? THE DEMON WHO WAS THERE.

He doesn't actually care about Jesus at all but he knows Crowley does.

So first you are saying Aziraphale only came back because of Jesus and now you are saying he doesn't care about Jesus, he just wants to manipulate Crowley. Right. Yes.

Crowley was kind to him. All the kingdoms of the world and such.

That was not a kindness. It was manipulation to get Jesus to stop his mission. It's in the Bible. We don't even know what happened there.

I couldn't believe after all that business Aziraphale was now asking Crowley to forgive him. Why did he need to hear it so badly?? So he would feel better about the whole thing???

Because Crowley never said he loved him.

Because every time they had a disagreement Crowley just didn't show up for some time until he did. And Aziraphale was left wondering where they stand.

Because Aziraphale always offered forgiveness for the things Crowley did that hurt him and now he asked for the same kindness back. Even if the things that hurt Crowley were inevitable. And the choices Aziraphale made were in the interest of Crowley.

Has Aziraphale done anything to address the way that Crowley, Whickber street, etc feel abandoned by him??

What was he supposed to do? He went for a reason. Crowley left Aziraphale for no reason I can discern. And he makes absolutely no amends. Does not even try. Are we just going in circles here?

Again, why wasn't Crowley looking after the street? He knows how to run a bookshop. He didn't even have to run it. He could just put the light on from time to time and collect rent when he felt like it.

Again. Everyone acts like Crowley had a right to drink and gamble and be miserable and do nothing. But Aziraphale was supposed to be stopping Armageddon AND look after Crowley AND the street.

Why? The wife gotta go to work and look after the house and kids? Aw, poor husband is feeling lonely cos she's busy?

And Crowley doesn't want to do it. He literally spits out the words.

To me - Crowley (or rather David who I am sure loves Crowley and detested how he was shown in the finale) seems to say it in a way that show he thinks Aziraphale needs no forgiveness at all. But you do you.

And they've never at all really talked about why it's so hard for Crowley to forgive him. Why he feels hurt by Aziraphale. They never once in the entire show talked properly about literally anything and I'm losing my mind

When are you going to mention how hurt Azirapahle must be feeling?

For thousands of years, Crowley's gotten tacit disapproval, blatant rejections, and a single conditional acceptance of Crowley provided he became an angel again and pretended to be something he isn't and doesn't want to be.

Oh, you have not watched the previous seasons? My bad. Because there Aziraphale tries to (and does) keep them safe from both Heaven and Hell whenever and however he can. Being careful in case they are overheard. Constantly worrying they might be seen, discovered, punished.

I do think Aziraphale sees no difference between Angel Crowley and Demon Crowley but I think Crowley does and Aziraphale has always just ignored it.

What the fuck does Aziraphale have to do with angel!Crowley? I'm so tired of this. He barely knew him. He was just commenting in the finale on how different he was. The only different one apparently. The only hero of the story. No one like Crowley.

The actual end of themselves and reality is the absolute worst time for Aziraphale to finally choose him.

Aziraphale chose Crowley on the Wall in Eden when he told him the truth about what he did and lied to God. And the real Crowley knows this.

I love Aziraphale

And now all of these fics are fucking AUs.

I wanted to know they are out there, talking things out and healing and holding one another and helping others with their traumas and

I WANTED HOPE for us all. I don't want a new universe where 'they' don't have the trauma.

The whole bloody point was that I cannot hope for another life after this one where all the suffering will be justified and I will be happy. I will never get another universe. Another life. I wanted hope that perseverance and kindness can bring someone healing here and now. That keeping going is worth it. And that in the mean time I can enjoy dessert even if it feels like the world is about the end. And fight another day.

We don't have the option to start the universe from scratch and hope for the best. We have to work within the systems we have. However bad or irreparable they seem. I don't want to give up. I don't want to be told Aziraphale was stupid for trying. That the system was never ever gonna change even if he got Crowley to stand before God and ask his question by the skin of his teeth.

I so wish that the ending hadn't actually been a nightmare at. Every. Single. Turn.

“You’re telling me we conned God?” “Mmm. Not quite intentionally at first. And not all by ourselves. The Universe... but also – yes. We fooled the Lady. Well Lord, technically. I’m not sure actually. Not anymore.”

Rated T

Don't click if you haven't watched GO3 yet. Or you know, make your own decisions, I'm not telling you what to do...

Why do people constantly HC that Crowley wants to be a demon and it’s important to him and how outraged and hurt and disappointed he must be that Aziraphale even thought to suggest they could be together in Heaven while they work out how to make things better?

The only things Crowley ever says about being a demon is how he never meant to fall, just made a mistake, it didn’t take much to fall etc. Also the HCs about horrible, painful, wing burning fall mystify me. Why do you want him to suffer?

The ‘building’ that hosts Heaven and Hell has stairs. Or a lift. Escalators. Maybe they all had to shuffle down a staircase when they lost the War.

Crowley is constantly disgusted by or scared of or pretending to be cooler than other demons. There is nothing about him that says he has any affinity with them. And why would he.

I don’t know if he believed in Lucifer’s propaganda or message or whatever it was, or just got roped in or hoped they’d actually want real change like not running the Universe for just 6000 years but if he did, he was clearly lied to.

I don’t see how Crowley falling gave him any special knowledge that Aziraphale lacks apart from knowing just how disgusting Hell is and what they do to human souls that end up there.

Aziraphale and Crowley both hate what Heaven and Hell are. They both constantly work against them where they can. Aziraphale is absolutely terrified of Heaven and the things they can do (create Hell for angels who had too many questions for example) but they have nowhere else to go.

Earth has been their sanctuary. They managed to keep their jobs AND their relationship secret - or open secret to those with eyes open.

But if the two sides are set on having a war to see which gang wins, there is nowhere for them to be safe in. Not unless something drastically changes. And clearly, not even stopping the Armageddon by having the Antichrist choose Earth and confusing the bosses with Plan name, put a stop to that.

I don’t see what is so wrong with Aziraphale going to Heaven hoping he can change the War hungry machine. Yes, maybe the chances are slim but it’s all they’ve got. Otherwise the Earth and Universe and Time will be destroyed as Michael said. And Infinity will start. That drunk Crowley so colourfully described.

In my headcanon, its not so much the fact that he's a demon now that makes Crowley proud of his identity but more that he made it for himself. God casts him out and Satan is kind of a dick too? Fine, he's going to call himself Crowley and do his own thing, be on his own side. So when Aziraphale says "I know the angel you were" as a way to tell him he knows him in the Bildad minisode, he's hurt not because he defines himself as a demon but because he defines himself as "not an angel anymore (and not really one of Hell either)".

In that way, the headcanons that say he's hurt in the f15 because he thinks Aziraphale wants him to be an angel again also make sense to me (though I personally don't like them as much as I used to and Aziraphale doesn't want that anyways. It is fun for the angst tho).

(That's also why people want the Fall to hurt, I think. We're all here to twist the knife just a bit more heh. It's fun to imagine and I wouldn't say no to a scene like that in the actual show either — he did describe the Fall as a "million light year freestyle dive into a pool of boiling sulphur" and that kind of sounds like it could have hurt.)

he made it for himself. God casts him out and Satan is kind of a dick too? Fine, he's going to call himself Crowley and do his own thing, be on his own side.

Yes, but so did Aziraphale. Aziraphale knew what Heaven truly was in Before the Beginning and clearly went his own way, did not Fall and even tried to warn Crowley from getting into trouble.

So when Aziraphale says "I know the angel you were" as a way to tell him he knows him in the Bildad minisode, he's hurt not because he defines himself as a demon but because he defines himself as "not an angel anymore (and not really one of Hell either)".

I don't think he's hurt there? He's being called out. He's being asked to trust Aziraphale with helping the kids. How would he have saved by himself? They needed to work as a team. Aziraphale says he knows him and he does. Demon or not, Aziraphale knows who he is and his (new) job does not define him. He's the same he always was and would not hurt the kids he was asked to kill if he thought there was a workaround.

he did describe the Fall as a "million light year freestyle dive into a pool of boiling sulphur"

Yeah, I guess we will see if he took a page from Dante to be dramatic or what exactly happened.

Sure, Crowley changed his demon name, but again, that points more to the fact that he does not care about his demon 'identity'. He is a demon and he does not care for it because he didn't want what happened to him. Nor I expect he likes the kind of jobs he has to do and pretend he has managed to do. Aziraphale acquires a surname somewhere too. They both become more and more human. They both distance themselves from Heaven and Hell as much as they can, doing their own thing while still doing their jobs and keeping their positions safe. Because anything else would be madness.