If I had a dollar every time a person on the internet, while talking about writing, said, "You don't need to make your characters likeable, instead you should make them interesting." - with the aura of a person giving a revolutionary take, if I got just one single dollar every time I encountered that, them I suspect I would be able to buy my own house by now.
Guess what, geniuses, that statement is utterly meaningless. Hardly anyone sets out to write boring characters, and the dichotomy isn't between likeable characters and interesting ones.
The terms "likeable" and "interesting" are fuzzy, used by different people to mean different things. Also, they're awfully subjective. Every characters widely beloved have their haters, and some characters you find fascinating won't leave an impression on another reader.
Instead of repeating this vacuous statement, people should endeavor to explain what they mean. Do they find certain characters blandly "nice" and would rather they have more specific motivations? Find them a generic everyman and would rather they be more distinct and unusual? More multifaceted? In what ways?
People could have so much more interesting discussions about characters if they move beyond this cliche.
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Extremely Unpopular opinion, I guess (and completely random), but Peeta is not a good love interest and is actually very manipulative and creepy.
Why?
1. He's "in love" with Katniss, despite the fact that he's only ever talked to her once or twice and his feelings come from watching her from afar. That's not love, that's the kind of things stalkers do.
2. He springs on Katniss the love declaration live where she has no space to process her feelings or respond in any negative way without risking her life or chances of survival.
3. By creating this situation Peeta (and Haymitch) engineered a situation where for Katniss's survival she must pretend to have romantic feelings for him.
4. Peeta suspects Katniss has romantic feelings for/is involved with Gale, but this doesn't stop him from enacting this plan.
Oh, but it's all for the sake of Katniss's survival! He was willing to die for her! How noble! How selfless!
No, it wasn't. But then again, the hunger games are messed up and people do messed up things there. That's understandable. If Peeta had ever bothered to apologize to Katniss for putting her in such an untenable situation maybe they could have built a more real foundation to a relationship.
But instead, the books are more concerned with Katniss feeling confused and conflicted about her feelings for Peeta and Gale, and castigating Katniss for not be grateful enough, for keeping secrets or having secrets kept from her and then her making mistakes because she doesn't magically make the right choices while not having the whole picture.
Katniss/Peeta could have worked. If Peeta, instead of being in love with Katniss since day one, "just" admired her. And if he thought that since he won't survive the games he wants the other person from district 12 to win. If he asked/warned Katniss about the lovebirds plan.
And yes, you can still have an element of uncertainty of how he really feels, if he is actually falling in love with her or not, and Katniss uncertain about how she feels about him. And this would still require Katniss to act in love on TV for her own survival, but this would be a choice she makes, not a plan she was manipulated into.
Instead, Katniss is pushed into a situation she has no real agency over, where she has to kiss another person in order to survive. And she has to be grateful about it, grateful that Peeta wants to sacrifice his life for her. And who's forcing her to kiss the feverish Peeta, anyway? Where's the gun to her head?
(The entire hunger games are a gun to Katniss's head, wielded by Peeta: if you want to survive, Katniss, you must kiss me)
But the hunger games are messed up, anyway. Kids forced to kill other kids. What's a few kisses in comparison?
Peeta says he doesn't want the games to change him into something else, implying he doesn't want to be forced into murdering innocent kids like Rue. But he does use the games to push Katniss into a situation where she must express affection for him in order to survive. And the situation requires Katniss's "willing" participation, making her complicit in this situation, making the romantic connection between them a fait accompi.
It doesn't matter that later Katniss does develop genuine feelings for him, because how can we trust these feelings are not just a victim of coercion making the best of a terrible situation? In the beginning of Catching Fire Katniss realizes she must sell their romance once more not only for the sake of her own survival but for that of her family's. Under those desperate circumstances there's a lot of internal psychological pressure to turn the fake relationship to a "real" one. And of course it helps that Peeta is young, and handsome, and gentle, and repeatedly expresses to Katniss that she is the most important thing in his life. He tells her:
"Katniss... If you die, and I live, there's no life for me at all back in District Twelve. You're my whole life", he says. "I would never be happy again."
---
But what other choice did Peeta have? - is the counter argument. He was genuinely trying to save Katniss's life, and he had no idea that he would survive the games. He had no way of knowing he would be forcing her into a relationship with him for the rest of her life. And the games are the ultimate culprit here, making teens make horrific choices in hopes of survival.
But the thing is, Peeta did have other choices: he could have chosen to share the plan with Katniss. But even if he hadn't, he could have later genuinely taken responsibility for what he put Katniss through.
That doesn't happen. Instead, the books focus on traumatizing Katniss and Peeta further, and ending the books with them together. Oh, look, these books say, look how traumatized and messy and grieving these people are, the games were terrible and war is terrible and propaganda is terrible and no one exits them unharmed or unbroken.
Peeta and Katniss are messed up and scarred and traumatized, the book says... but at least they have each other.
---
The books frame the love triangle between Katniss, Peeta and Gale as Katniss not only choosing between two boys, but also between two different paths. Gale represents violence and vengeance, violence that ultimately kills innocent people, that kills Prim. Peeta, meanwhile, is supposed to represent compassion, unity, and resisting and winning through diplomacy. The narrative and Katniss admire Peeta's ability to influence and manipulate public opinion for protection and survival.
Yet the narrative doesn't quite acknowledge that Katniss is a victim of such a manipulation. Peeta declared he loves Katniss to protect her, but it's also awfully convenient for Peeta. Since he apparently genuinely believed that he would die, his last major act before entering the games did two things:
1. Both Katniss and the entire world became aware on some level of his feelings
2. For this to not backfire on Katniss, she couldn't reject him publicly. She would be forced to play along.
So Peeta gets to have the world and Katniss acknowledge his love for her. He doesn't warn or ask Katniss for permission (and spare me the Haymitch excuse that her reaction needed to be genuine. What if she had been in love with Gale and so reacted to Peeta's declaration in horror or disgust?).
And even later, the narrative never hints that Peeta did something bad to Katniss. Since it was for her own good, she should be grateful. He doesn't ever need to apologize for putting her in that position.
And I find this narrative framing uncomfortable and disturbing.
so many people forget or don’t mention that moash killed the two prisoners in roshone’s basement when that’s arguably one of the absolute worst and least justifiable actions he takes on screen. nobody cares because they’re not characters we know and care about. even roshone’s death gets more attention, even though we have no reason to like this guy. he’s more known to us, so we care more. but moash literally killed two defenseless civilians for no reason on screen, and nobody fucking cares.
anyways the original post i was gonna make before i remembered no one even cares about this is that jasnah killing the men in the alleyway and moash killing the prisoners are comparable crimes on paper. the victims are men who have committed crimes and in each instance they were extrajudicially killed.
in moash’s case, he doesn’t care about the men’s crimes. he kills them as what he perceives as a mercy, believing that they will be forgotten in their prison and die there (as his grandparents were). he had other options—he could have freed them or left them to their fate, where unbeknownst to moash they would have been rescued by roshone—but he chooses to kill them because he fundamentally believes death to be a mercy, because his own existence is so torturous now.
in jasnah’s case, she seeks out these men because of their crimes, traps them, and then kills them. she had other options—she could have trapped them and called guards to arrest them, and since she is a princess, her testimony would have easily convicted these men—but she chooses to kill them because she takes their crimes personally. shallan notes that there is vengeance in her actions, and she wonders “who hurt her?” and it’s implied that she’s done this before many times.
just as people barely ever mention that moash kills the prisoners in roshone’s basement, despite it being one of the most ostensibly and straightforwardly evil things moash does, people rarely talk about how horrible it is that jasnah kills the men in the alleyway. it’s an interesting and even cool scene, but jasnah is a princess with many other powers and options at her disposal who is choosing to extrajudicially murder common men for crimes she believes they’ve committed without extensive proof, and it’s something she has done before and perhaps does regularly.
my grand thesis statement in highlighting these two incidents is just that as people are so unwilling to look at the nuance in moash’s actions and believe him to be 100% evil, people are also unwilling to look at the nuance in other “hero” characters’ actions and believe them to be 100% good. i like jasnah, i find this scene interesting and character defining, but i feel the same about moash’s scenes and wonder often why other people don’t.
Cosmere Villains Who Would Be The BEST Picks For Your Zombie-Fighting Team
Recently I explored which Cosmere protagonists would be the worst picks for your Zombie Apocalypse Survival Team. Naturally, that begs the parallel question: which Cosmere villains should you choose to be on your team? The following characters will give you the best odds of surviving & thriving!
1. Moash
I mean, this won't work if you're a blue-eyed Rich Person, but if you're someone Moash would want on his team, then you're golden! Moash will teach you how to fight (see: Moash with the freed Singers) and will be very good at mowing down zombies left and right. Plus, if some dear friend and teammate is zombified, Moash will NOT hesitate to cut off that person's head. And that is a strong positive in the zombie apocalypse!
2. Taravangian
Listen...this will only work if you yourself are a bit ruthless, but hear me out. Will Taravangian sacrifice that other, rival fort over there to the zombie hordes? Yes. Is he working on a plan to save the planet that coincidentally means allowing 90% of the population to be infected? Well...yes. But will YOUR small team be absolutely protected by Taravangian's convoluted scheme? Yeah! So, I mean...that's something, right?
3. Bleeder
If there is one thing Bleeder hates, it's people whose free will has been taken away. And what does Bleeder do to solve this problem? Murder! That's a strong resume for her being on your zombie-fighting team. Zombies are people whose free will and sentience has been taken away, and now they are trapped as a shambling herd of hunger. I bet Bleeder would be all for killing ever single last zombie and for bringing down the one responsible if it's that kind of zombie apocalypse.
4. Crow
Crow is an excellent fighter...and killer. Also quite an effective leader in times of crisis. Now, will Crow force you and the other members of her team to do something horrible to promote group bonding? Yeah, probably. I'm thinking--tricking you all into cannibalism or something. BUT after your shared crime has given your group cohesion, THEN you'll be a well-oiled zombie-fighting MACHINE! Plus, Crow definitely nails headshots like 99.9% of the time.
5. Dilaf
What does Dilaf hate? Elantrians. What are Elantrians? Zombies. QED.
6. Hrathen
Hrathen is also a villain whose target was Elantrians (=zombies), so that's a good resume. And unlike Dilaf, he's not 100% unhinged! His general stance is "it is better that a population be spared than it be decimated" which is a solid zombie apocalypse stance. Now, you WILL have to convert to his religion, but I think you can mostly just pretend to do that.
7. Raboniel
Raboniel would be great to have on your team because you KNOW she's working on a cure for zombiism. Now...is she working on a cure because her daughter has been zombified? Yes. Is the strange banging and growilng you hear from that box actually her daughter whom Raboniel is keeping IN the fort thus endangering the whole team? Yeah. But she's REALLY smart and REALLY motivated so I think it's worth the risk!
Because I’m tired over parenting debates where the only true answer is Straff, who’s the worst sibling?
Motivations under the cut:
Reen - Was physically and psychologically abusive towards his sister.
Zane - Tried to have his brother assasinated and tried to make his sister in law fall in love with him because he was jealous and when she didn't reciprocrate tried to kill her as well. Also got multiple of his other siblings killed during the previously mentioned assassination attempt.
Gavilar - Used his brother as a weapon and then used his following ptsd and addiction as a way to manipulate him. He also persued the girl he knew his brother wanted to court.
Dalinar - Was about to kill his brother once, got drunk and didn’t listen during his meetings and eventually fucked his widow (which is good for her but I imagine Gavilar would take issue).
Telsin - Faked her death, killed her brother, then tried to nuke his home city.
Eventeo - Took the throne from his brother and banished him.
Kiin - Tried to take the throne back from his brother by force.
Balat - Let his sister deal with their family problems and feel responsible for him and their brothers despite being the youngest.
Helaran - Left his siblings alone with their abusive father.
Kelsier - Died? And fought over a girl.
Venli - Set off events that led to her sisters death, kinda. Idk it's not her I just wanted more women on the list.
Prime Elhokar - Had one of his sisters closest allies murdered in front of her. Basically locked her up so she couldn't tell anyone and then married her off to Sadeas/Amaram against her wishes.
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i do think it's very characteristic that in order to get to falme:
mat nopes out and then gets dumped there against his will anyway,
rand (accidentally) sparks a major incident that results in the foregate burning, the royal wedding being stopped by scandal, several aes sedai going rogue, and a bunch of relationships being ruined,
I mean, I guess she is now. But she wasn't, once. No more than Dalinar or Gavilar. In the middle, she was morally neutral, I'd say. Invention and scholarship for its own sake is neither good nor evil. Now, she's sort of stumbled into being on the side of the "good guys." I wonder if things in Kholinar would have gone differently if she'd stayed there, to try and check Aesudan. I'm glad she is living the life she wanted but, well, she had a lot of power and seemed to mostly work to keep it and protect her own, rather than to work towards the good of the world.
I have very mixed feelings about Navani, because she's presented as a person with a lot of political acumen. And yet she seems like she didn't impart much of that to Elhokar.
In Way of Kings she says her son is a bad king, but doesn't seem to have tried to make him a better one. Of course she doesn't share total responsibility for that, as we know Gavilar was a terrible father who didn't seem to do much to try and prepare Elhokar for being king. But while Navani picked up Gavilar's slack in day to day management, but didn't seem to try and influence her son. This issue becomes glaring when considering Aesudan. Maybe Navani tried to find Elhokar a better wife and failed, but while Elhokar had his reasons for choosing to marry Aesudan, he doesn't appear to have been so in love with her that he would have married her even if his mother would have strongly pushed him to do otherwise.
Jasnah appears to have picked up some things from Navani, alongside making her own connections and observations, but it doesn't look like Navani spent much time directly teaching her and instructing her. Navani implies that Jasnah pushed her away, but there's no evidence that Elhokar did the same. Elhokar was searching for people he perceived as strong to gain support and even instruction from, and ended up listening to people like Roshone, Aesudan and Sadeas. If Navani had worked to become a stronger influence, would things have turned out the same?
(This isn't to absolve Elhokar from his own lack of judgement, petulance, and bad behaviour, of course.)
Then there's also the question of what Navani was doing in Kholinar before she arrived at the Shattered Plains. True, she says other people in politics considered her irrelevant, and she does say there are problems back home, but the way Kholinar imploded just months after Navani left hints that she wasn't much invested in or working on the political and social situation.
Navani seems at some points to be very self absorbed. She works hard on the things that interest her - fabrials and forming a romantic relationship with Dalinar, but doesn't often seem to be focused on helping or trying to do good when it doesn't benefit her personally. She got lucky that her interest in fabrials and in strengthening Dalinar's position have relevance in saving the world.
To be fair, Navani did spend a lot time married to an emotionally abusive man, and not having much opportunities to engage in her interests. So I can't completely begrudge her doing things for herself and putting herself first. Yet at the same time, it seems like Navani ended up doing good more out of happenstance than choice, and she seems to care more about proving to herself that's she's good enough, rather than making the world or other people's lives better without regard to her own personal benefits.
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I love a realistic and painstaking redemption arc. Like everyone is still going to be mean to you and hate you while you’re trying to be better, and part of you redeeming yourself is keeping the will to do better in spite of that. And like. It’d be so easy to give up bc trying to fix what you did means you have to take ownership of it. Not to mention that after you still probably won’t be forgiven, and you will probably never forgive yourself but that doesn’t make it not worth trying and this post is about Venli Stormlight Archive
obviously i was kelsier to have an interaction with shallan in stormlight 5 but you know who else i’d die for him to meet ?? lift. i want lift to manifest in his rooms while he’s preparing for something and make a comment abt his ass. and kelsier just stares at her before completely fucking losing it with laughter bc finally there’s SOMEONE on roshar who smiles and jokes when things are shitty. i think kell puts on a more serious air but deep down he wants to be the happy carefree crew leader and by god if lift wouldn’t encourage that side of him to come out ….
Uhhh is nobody going to address the issue that Kelsier's underlings kidnapped Lift and locked her in a box? And then handed her over to the fused? Who imprisoned her and would have eventually killed her if Venli hadn't saved her?
Sure Lift would find Kelsier fun, but I'm not sure she would be so enthused to hang out with him if she knew he was at the head of the organisation Mraize belongs to.
‘ The Immortal Game. Adolf Anderssen and Lionel Kieseritzky, the 21st of June 1851. Here in London. Anderssen sacrificed both rooks, a bishop and his queen, then checkmated Kieseritzsky with three minor pieces. I’ve always wanted to try that. ’
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