thorki city

Eight Months of a Century by stereobone: Loki and Thor shack up with the Avengers to keep Loki safe because Thor totally knocked him up and Odin, they imagine, won't react well. Mpreg, I suppose, except kinda not since we're dealing with a being who is a shapeshifter and also magic, so

Soft Shocks by stereobone: Loki and Thor pretend to be married for typical 'Loki told the Jotuns this was the case' reasons. Features one of my favourite oh-so-convincing lines from Thor, when he says 'That's me, I am a husband' to convince a dude he's married to his bro...it's a whole deal.

Safe Passage Through the Anus by Anonymous: Grandmaster makes Thor and Loki star in porn, Thor and Loki try and pretend as though this is, like, totally the first time they've done each other. I died reading this

The Price by Ark: Thor brings Loki back after Infinity War, but there's a price. Bring tissues, but read this one 100%

Reveille by Ark: Thor wants to see Loki again. Bring tissues for this one too. All of Ark's stuff is amazing, but these two are my fave.

Faceless by thefirstwhokneels: Also a sequel that you should read. Thor and Loki keep visiting a tavern where you can sleep with anonymous people who have their faces well-concealed. They each get really attached to this one person: naturally, each other.

How soft your fields so green by ravenbringslight: Aliens make them do it. Loki is put out because the sex is...fine. He thinks he deserves better.

No Common Thing by ravenbringslight: Loki follows Thor to a brothel. It gets complicated fast.

Face hell and walk backwards into the light by ravenbringslight: Post-IW, Loki is dead but did a really bad job of crossing over. Thor is the only one who can see him.

Hug Therapy by astolat: Thor is trying to save Loki through hugs and other means. His therapist probably needs therapy herself after this.

Take the Long Way Home by cavaleira: Thor and Loki strike a deal.

Inside Out series by hjbender: Loki and Thor get together on the Statesman, it ends in Loki pregnant accidentally, there's a great 'poor Bruce' moment in this one as he deals with their bullshit

The Hope Only of Empty Men by Clarice Chiara Sorcha (claricechiarasorcha): SHIELD/Avengers do some dark medical shit to convince Loki he's pregnant as it calms him down. This one is a bit cracky and dark, don't expect a happy ending

The panel in question. "Sure, suicide's a fantasy for everybody at some point or another" is, uh, an interesting look into his mind, for sure. So is suicidal ideation a thing for Johnny? I think we can make the case, but there's a lot going on in this issue that leads him down this road.

This is a bit of a weird one. This issue is a flashback that takes place during Simonson's run, in the middle of a larger story about the FF hopping universes, and we need some background. Before and during the trip, Johnny begins to have strange visions of a strange beautiful blue woman named Nebula. (Not the same Nebula as the GotG movies but rather a character named Ravonna Ravenslayer. I hate it here.)

(FF #337-338) Nebula kisses Johnny -- the pretty familiar "Johnny leaning away from intimate contact with women" posture is here again -- before possessing him and taking control of his body, mind, and powers.

When Nebula's possession is broken, Sharon Ventura, the She-Thing of the time (Ben is temporarily unrocky here), remarks that "to be so totally under Nebula's control... helpless," it must have felt like the time Johnny "lost control of his flame."

(FF #342) So again we have this kind of prevalent link between Johnny's loss of control over his powers and a lack of his personal autonomy over his body, as represented by physical and/or sexual assault. (They could have had Nebula possess him without kissing him, or saying she "needs him," or having her in his body comment about how attractive Gladiator is to her.

(FF #339) "He would make a worthy consort." "This should be interesting. He's a handsome brute, whoever he is." Add it to the pile of Extremely Suspect Panels, true believers.

That's gonna come up again. It's interesting to me that Sharon in particular is the character who, albeit clumsily, brings this up, because of that link between Johnny's control of his powers and Johnny's history of assault.

Sharon Ventura, who originally went by Ms. Marvel, was a wrestler Ben knew from the Unlimited Class Wrestling Federation. She underwent a process to have her physical strength augmented, but in the process she was gang raped. (Some sources will say that this is only "implied," but I think, though it's not graphically shown on panel, it's very evident what happened.) Due to that trauma, she developed an intense hatred and physical repulsion for the touch of men -- Ben being the exception for her because, in her view, his rocky body made him "not a man." (Ben takes that about as well as you'd expect.) For the record, I don't think any of the handling of Sharon's character basically anywhere in Fantastic Four is good or well done (can any writer ever be normal about her), but it is canon, and we're working with it and not against it for the sake of this analysis.

Anyway, Sharon's comments launch us into a flashback that "wasn't even all that long ago." Johnny's working on his little red Jaguar (the pink pearl Thunderbird is my favorite of his canonically mentioned cars) when a story comes on the radio about a 16yo dropout student named Theodore Bannion who has committed suicide by self-immolation, and left a note behind detailing his admiration for the Human Torch.

(There's an urban legend that Johnny wasn't present in the 1978 animated Fantastic Four series because producers were concerned children would emulate him and set themselves on fire. This is false -- Johnny wasn't present because of a rights issue -- but this is a thing that happened in 616 canon more than once.)

Johnny, in the moment, hearing the radio report, totally loses control of his powers and flames on, blowing up the Jaguar and setting fire to the shop, endangering the people around him. This is something Johnny doesn't just do, by the way -- Johnny is extremely conscious of his control all of the time, to such a degree that even his own sister doesn't realize how much effort it takes him, and how much his emotions feed into his powers, until she personally experiences it herself.

(FF #520)

(Human Torch #6) "Because there's only one rule for people like us -- do no harm! You can never hurt anybody -- EVER!" He's speaking to another pyrokinetic here.

So that control is a huge thing for Johnny. For him to lose it takes a massive, massive loss of emotional control, like when he goes Nova to save himself from Lyja's attack in FF #371. He manages to get a hold of himself and absorb his flames before they can threaten the entire block, and no one is ultimately hurt, but it's a close call.

(FF #342) Now there's a reason Johnny might be so shaken by this act of self-immolation, beyond just the disturbing aspect of a sixteen-year-old taking their own life in emulation and admiration of him. I keep saying this isn't the only time a kid has died trying to emulate Johnny, and sorry for jumping around issues so much, but I think it's relevant to this story.

In Fantastic Four #285, a lonely little boy named Tommy sets himself on fire to emulate Johnny, although I do not believe, in Tommy's case, the intent was to commit suicide. Neglected by his parents at home and bullied at school, Tommy's only source of comfort is his admiration and idolization of Johnny.

His love for Johnny is weaponized against him, with other students offering him magazine interviews and other Johnny paraphernalia in exchange for money or him doing their homework. Pushed to the edge, when Tommy's older nerdy neighbor accidentally points out some experimental rocket fuel, Tommy douses himself in it and sets himself alight. Johnny is present for Tommy's final words in the hospital a month later, at which point Tommy tells him he did it because he wanted to be like him.

This utterly devastates Johnny, who contemplates quitting the team and giving up his identity as the Human Torch to prevent future tragedy, although he decides against it after the Beyonder shows him how he was the only source of happiness for Tommy.

Going back to #342, Johnny attempts to flame on and carry "Alicia" back to their home, but flinches at the last second. Even though "Alicia" assures him she trusts him and that he won't burn her, Johnny, shaken, decides it's safer to walk. There's a brief flashback to the Tommy incident, with "Alicia" telling Johnny he can't blame himself and Johnny saying it's not the first time a kid has killed themselves, accidentally or otherwise, emulating him.

Johnny decides that the only way he's going to be able to come to peace with this incident is if he investigates it himself by going to Theodore's suburban hometown. Which, uh, in typical Johnny fashion, he maybe didn't think through entirely.

After he's confronted by Theodore's sister, Johnny's taken to meet his friends, who are a group of roughly high school aged punks. Unlike Tommy, who idolized Johnny and looked up to him, this gang seems to view Johnny more as an object on which they pin their personal belief system.

One of them also forces a kiss on Johnny despite him repeatedly telling her to stop, because of course that happens.

If I start thinking about this ongoing pattern of assault against him and the violation of his space and boundaries I am going to end up like that Always Sunny conspiracy wall.

The group takes Johnny back to their secret hideout where they tell him that they have, essentially, formed a suicide cult, each of them determined to go out young and in a literal blaze. They claim they're "inspired" by Johnny, even as they laugh that they're never going to be like him, "famous, livin' the highlife." He begs them to reconsider, even swearing he'll never use his powers again so they'll have nothing to emulate, but the group isn't swayed. Johnny eventually drives off in tears, which are of course mocked as well.

"Whoo! Some act! Didja catch the fake tears?" I am once again thinking about how Johnny is a very genuinely emotional and sincere person and how, because of his appearance and his celebrity and his flashy powers, everyone, including him, believes he's fake.

This is what leads us up to that initial panel you saw, where he's standing on the edge of the Baxter Building, saying that it would be so easy to step off and not flame off. He doesn't -- he goes back inside -- but it's still a striking sentiment from him.

The rest of this issue features Johnny teaming up with another pyrokinetic and being attacked by the fathers of that whole little gang up there before coming to terms with the fact that him not using his powers is not a solution to people harming themselves in his image. Peter even makes a cameo appearance at the end and encourages Johnny to talk about this issue publicly, citing how inspired he was by Johnny when Johnny gave a speech at his school in Amazing Spider-Man #3, telling people to never give up. It's very sweet, but let's return to the original question.

Is suicidal ideation a Johnny thing?

Obviously, I can't say this is a "no." His "everyone fantasizes about suicide" in this comic alone rules that out, because we can then infer that him standing at the top of the Baxter Building like that is not the first time he's had these thoughts. Which doesn't surprise me: Johnny has a long, long history of depression and extremely low self-esteem, and he is prone to self-destructive behavior at his lowest points, although this behavior doesn't always manifest the same way.

Here's a really early example, from when Johnny and Crystal were originally separated.

(Fantastic Four #54) Wyatt Wingfoot saves him before the Convenient Plot Device he was using would have exploded, killing him, to which Johnny responds, "Maybe it would have been better if you hadn't saved me!!"

Which, okay, he's nineteen and dramatic over his first Real Love here, and if this was the only example of this kind of response to situations, I'd write it off as that, but it's not.

(FF #193) "He broods constantly -- and he's like a volcano, ready to erupt at any time. I-I'm afraid he'll hurt himself!" That Rebecca Rainbow, professional racecar driver and friend of Wyatt. She's known Johnny for about five minutes and she can already see the writing on that wall.

As a note, I think Wyatt is the most intentionally aware of Johnny's self-destructive streak, and not just because he was witness to Johnny's willingness to die if it meant he had a chance at freeing Crystal. Wyatt has a tendency to show up for Johnny when he's at his lowest, like in the above scene where Johnny's spiraling because the team has temporarily split up, or in Robinson's run when Johnny's power loss and fallout with Ben have led to him engaging with his Party Boy personality in a way that's definitely not healthy for him. When I say intentionally aware, it's because I think Ben and Sue are also very aware of this tendency, but that they handle it in different ways. I think Sue loves Johnny deeply, but she feels guilty about a lot of things concerning him, and that the way she deals with this is to act like Johnny's moments of deep self-hatred are some kind of phase he'll grow out of eventually. Ben can be very supportive of Johnny in these moments, but Ben has his own issues, and a separation from Ben (whether they're fighting or the team has split up) often exacerbates Johnny's tendency to engage in self-destructive behavior.

(FF v5 #7) For example, Johnny's extreme Party Boy spiral I mentioned above doesn't start when he loses his powers, or when his singing career tanks as a result or when Reed and Sue lose custody of the kids -- it starts when Ben tells him he never wants him to speak to him again. Ben is, in a lot of ways, Johnny's emotional rock, and when he's missing his presence, that's when things tend to go off the rails.

(That he started his relationship with "Alicia" aka Lyja the Skrull spy while Ben was in space is very interesting in this regard.)

With regards to Peter, in case anyone asks -- I think Peter is generally unaware of this tendency or, when he is aware, he thinks it's less common than it is. Peter has a tendency to fall for what people show him, and Johnny shows him glitzy, dazzling Human Torch more often than not. I think in the context of a relationship Peter would start digging, and be extremely concerned about what he finds, but that it would take that romantic relationship in order for him to fully realize. But he does sometimes notice things are off, like in Robinson's run when he contacts Wyatt so they can both kidnap talk to Johnny, or when he tips Ben off that he's worried about Johnny in Marvel Two-in-One, which is one of the more recent examples of Johnny's self-destructive and potentially suicidal behavior.

Marvel Two-in-One (2018) opened with Johnny pulling stunts like intentionally crashing during a professional race and flying up as high as he could into the atmosphere before his flames gave out. He tells Ben he was testing his powers, because he thinks they're failing, but if that's true he's testing them in ways that could very much have killed him.

(Marvel Two-in-One #1) When Ben confronts Johnny, Johnny even says, "I wasn't doing that for..." before ominously trailing off. So I think it's pretty obvious to us, the audience, and to Ben, and to Johnny himself what this looks like. This is why Ben lies to Johnny -- or thinks he lies, anyway -- and tells him Reed and Sue are alive and that they'll go reality hopping looking for them, because Ben is trying to buy time and this is the best way he can think of to distract Johnny. Which is a terrible plan, by the way, and even Dr. Doom thinks so.

(Marvel Two-in-One #7) "You are both spoiled, privieleged children, wasting your dwindling abilities on a fool's errand. And you will get Jonathan killed." "I'm... I'm helpin' Johnny. He ain't gonna die." This was such a fun trio and I'm so sad Two-in-One got derailed the way it did.