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AU where all the peak lords are secretly demons/part demons except they all think they’re the only one.
YQY: I can’t possibly tell Xiao-Jiu that the reason I couldn’t come back and save him is because my shizun had to keep my demonic heritage secret until I could control it…
SJ, who killed and ate QJL when demon puberty hit: I can’t let anyone know I’m a demon or they’ll throw me out
also LQG’s family are actually all part demons, but he never actually noticed this until he was an adult because he just assumed everything they did was normal and it was other people who were the weird ones.
During a mission Liu Qingge and Shen Qingqiu are hit with sex pollen and have a few rounds of hate-sex. It's surprisingly awesome for both. After they're back in the sect, they start to regularly engage each other in fights again. The fighting turns into heated make-out sessions more and more often. Both catch feelings and the hate-sex turns into a hidden relationship.
Binghe arrives at the entrance test and Liu Qingge points him out - and whispers to Shen Qingqiu that the boy could become their little secret love-child. Shen Qingqiu is sadly not as thrilled by this as he hoped and makes it abundantly clear this attempt at romantic murmuring was weird and embarrassing. No way he'll take the child after hearing that!
Bai Zhan traditionally only takes those who climb up to the peak on their own anyway and now Liu Qingge worries a bit that taking the boy in might also make Shen Qingqiu think he pursued the rejected idea further. So he carefully makes absolutely no move to claim him either.
Luckily for Binghe, Yue Qingyuan notices what he interprets as bickering between these two and the boy it's about. He eventually picks Binghe for his peak.
Shang Qinghua is shocked by the blaring error messages from the system, hurries to where the entrance test takes place and is treated to the sight of the little protagonist trailing behind the sect leader to Qiong Ding peak.
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This post will attempt to provide an answer to several questions, including the ages of some of the current peak lords, as well as a rough timeline of events in the extras relative to the current day. A simple, bullet-point timeline will be at the end of this post, with relevant quotes and analysis above.
The timeline of SVSSS isn't particularly easy to piece together, and many fans are unsure of things such as the ages of certain characters, or how long the current generation of peak lords has been in power. As a matter of fact, it seems like even Airplane himself doesn't have a set timeline in mind for the events of PIDW pre-LBH:
“Your ages?”
To tell the truth, Shen Qingqiu didn’t really know the precise age of this body. He raised his head at Shang Qinghua. “Wouldn’t you know better than I do?”
Shang Qinghua twirled the brush in his hand. He’d never thought about this question either, so he figured he might as well just say whatever. Therefore he randomly wrote a number down in a couple of strokes.
(7 Seas, Ch. 31)
It would be easy enough to take this quote and call the timeline a mystery-- however, there are a surprising amount of clues in the text, enough to at least put together a decent idea of when things happened and how old certain characters are, depending on which theories and interpretations one ascribes to.
There are two particular facts which are our most important hints as to the pre-LBH timeline, upon which this entire analysis hinges.
First, we have the spacing of the Immortal Alliance Conferences:
After much difficulty, Luo Binghe managed to turn seventeen, at which point he finally participated in the event the cultivation world held once every four years: the Immortal Alliance Conference.
(7 Seas, Ch. 1)
And next, we have the length of time since Shen Qingqiu began to cultivate:
Before, Shen Qingqiu had thought that this body’s qualifications were already incredible, to have formed a core in only ten or so years when he’d begun cultivation so late.
(7 Seas, Ch. 19)
Notably here, what is translated as "ten or so years" is 十几年， which is more accurately "ten and a few years." This means that at the time Shen Qingqiu formed a golden core, he had been at Cang Qiong Mountain for around 10-15 years, but likely no longer or shorter than that.
This tells us quite a bit already-- because we know that Shen Qingqiu only reached core formation after becoming peak lord, as well as after Luo Binghe had already become a disciple:
Luo Binghe was using the incorrect cultivation manual that Shen Qingqiu had handed him; he should have long since died bleeding from the seven apertures, his body rupturing down to his bones, skin, meridians, tendons, and flesh...
Shen Qingqiu was filled with paranoia; he forever felt like everyone was secretly talking behind his back, discussing how he’d been unable to attain Core Formation even after this long.
(7 Seas, Ch. 24)
So this tells us that it could not have been any longer than around 15 years between Shen Qingqiu and Luo Binghe joining Cang Qiong Mountain, and was likely at least a few years less than that because it has already been awhile since Luo Binghe was given the fake manual, which likely occured shortly after he arrived, and Shen Qingqiu reaches core formation at some point after this scene.
This means that the Qing generation's ascenscion likely occured no more than ten years after Shen Qingqiu joined the sect-- putting the ages for Shen Qingqiu and Yue Qingyuan respectively at roughly twenty-six and twenty-nine when they became peak lords.
The timeline can be clarified further and expanded, however, due to the spacing of the IAC. We know that the IAC occured when Luo Binghe was seventeen, and that it occurs every four years-- meaning that there would have been IAC taking place also when he was thirteen, nine, five, one, and three years before he was born.
However, we also know that it had not actually been fourteen years since Luo Binghe's birth at the start of SVSSS.
In the translation, Luo Binghe says the following when Shen Qingqiu asks his age:
“This disciple is fourteen,” Luo Binghe obediently replied.
(7 Seas, Ch. 1)
However, the original says:
洛冰河乖巧地道：“弟子虚岁十四。”
"虚岁" here would be better translated as "nominal age." In ancient times, a child was one year old on the day of their birth, and aged up by one year with each new year-- so if a child was born the day before the new year, then at two days old he would already be counted as two years old. Sometimes, this would be counted on the spring festival new year, but other times it would be counted on the winter solstice.
As for Luo Binghe's precise chronological age, that is up for some determination. We know roughly the time of year he was born:
Immediately after birth, Luo Binghe was abandoned by his parents, swaddled in white cloth, and put in a wooden basin that was lowered into the Luo River. This occurred on the coldest days of the year...
(7 Seas, Ch. 1)
The "coldest days of the year" here is 数九寒天, which refers to the nine periods of nine days each following the winter solstice. The winter solstice typically occurs on December 20-21, meaning that Luo Binghe's birth date is somewhere between December 20-March 12. If nominal age is being counted by winter solstice in this world, then that makes him chronologically thirteen at the start of SVSSS, but if it is calculated by the spring festival, then he is chronologically either twelve or thirteen at the start of SVSSS, as the Chinese new year can fall anywhere between January 21 - February 21, meaning that LBH could have been born either before or after this time.
So, let's just say that LBH's chronological age, for the purposes here, is thirteen, and then adjust our IAC timeline as follows：
There was one when he was chronologically sixteen, twelve, eight, four, the year he was born, and four years before he was born.
Now, how does this help us determine a timeline?
Well, we have the following statement:
Yue Qingyuan’s knuckles slowly brushed along Xuan Su’s hilt. “I was able to meet Senior Su Xiyan once at an Immortal Alliance Conference, many years ago."
(7 Seas, Ch. 18)
Because we know that Su Xiyan died when Luo Binghe was born, we know that this meeting could not have occured at any conferences after his birth. It also would be unlikely that they met the same year Luo Binghe was born, as Su Xiyan would likely already be dead at that point if LBH was born after the new year. So, the latest that Yue Qingyuan could have met Su Xiyan would be twenty years before Luo Binghe was thrown into the Abyss.
We now combine this with the earlier discussion of the ages of Shen Qingqiu and Yue Qingyuan, and here I will note the following:
Yue Qingyuan slowly said, “At age fifteen, I entered Qiong Ding Peak."
(7 Seas, Ch. 21)
This puts Yue Qingyuan roughly three years older than Shen Jiu:
“When [Shen Jiu] was twelve years old, he was but a slave my family had purchased from traveling child traffickers. "
(7 Seas, Ch. 6)
Shen Jiu joined Cang Qiong Mountain at sixteen:
Liu Qingge didn’t even grace him with a sideways glance. “But certainly more success than a nobody who only began proper cultivation at age sixteen.”
(7 Seas, Ch. 19)
This happened most likely directly after reuniting with Yue Qingyuan at an Immortal Alliance Conference. This puts Yue Qingyuan's age at nineteen during that conference, at which point he is head disciple, and has already gained some fame. However, this reunion has to occur before Luo Binghe's birth, Su Xiyan's death, and Tianlang-jun's defeat. This is because at this point, Yue Qingyuan has only been in Cang Qiong Mountain for four years-- thus, this particular conference is almost certainly the first one he has taken part in, and likely the first one he has attended at all, since a brand-new disciple in early stages of training most likely wouldn't have gone, therefore if Tianlang-jun had already been sealed by this point, Yue Qingyuan would not have had the chance to meet Su Xiyan.
So, the latest Shen Qingqiu could have joined Cang Qiong Mountain, at age 16, is twenty years before the Abyss, which would put him at age thirty-six at the youngest at that time.
Now, what about additional conference cycles?
It's possible that the conference in which Yue Qingyuan met Su Xiyan and/or after which Shen Qingqiu joined CQM may have been the one before this-- but that would also add four additional years to the time SQQ had been cultivating.
The earliest that Luo Binghe could have joined CQM would be when he was a little over ten years old, as that is when his mother dies:
On the bed lay a haggard old woman. With great effort, she tried to prop herself up, but from beginning to end, she was unable to do so. A small figure rushed in from outside. A tender-faced Luo Binghe, only a little over ten years old, supported the woman. Around his neck hung that jade pendant.
(7 Seas, Ch. 3)
Shen Qingqiu had not reached core formation when Luo Binghe joined the sect. This means that if the IAC where SQQ joined the sect was four years before Luo Binghe's birth, then by the time Luo Binghe joins the sect it has been about fourteen to fifteen years since SQQ began cultivating.
Adding an additional four years would bump that to eighteen to nineteen years, which exceeds the "ten and some" years that SQQ took to reach core formation.
In my opinion, this also tells me that LBH joined CQM when he was absolutely no older than ten or eleven, and likely went to join immediately after his mother's death, because pushing LBH's join date later would also stretch the timeline of SQQ's cultivation. Now, this part does not specify whether the ten years old is nominal age or chronological age-- but because LBH's age of seventeen at the conference is referenced to his nominal age of fourteen, with a distance between of three years, then I am considering all age-numbers to be nominal age rather than chronological. This only really matters in regards to Luo Binghe for this analysis, though, as his birth year is the only one which has bearing on the timeline in regards to Su Xiyan's status.
With all of this information, we can determine with good confidence that the conference in which Yue Qingyuan met Su Xiyan was the same conference during which he reunited with Shen Qingqiu, which occured four years before Luo Binghe was born and twenty years before the Endless Abyss.
So because of this, we actually do have a relatively precise timeline of characters' ages, as well as events in the cultivation world.
This short timeline is also supported by the fact that Ming Fan is the most senior of Shen Qingqiu's disciples, and he is only sixteen, about 2-3 years older than Luo Binghe:
A youth around sixteen years old, tall and thin, promptly ran in through the door. “This disciple is here. What instructions does Shifu have?”
(7 Seas, Ch. 1)
Had the Qing generation ascended too many years prior to Luo Binghe's joining the sect, it would be strange that the most senior disciple of Shen Qingqiu's was only sixteen, as in xianxia a disciple typically will not "graduate" at a certain age or cultivation stage, meaning that older disciples will maintain their role well into adulthood.
As for the rest of the peak lords, we have little to no information regarding the ages of Wei Qingwei, Qi Qingqi, or Mu Qingfang. However, we do know that Liu Qingge is quite young, and joined the sect both at an optimal age and a significant length of time before Shen Qingqiu:
At this point, Liu Qingge’s formal ascension to Bai Zhan Peak Lord, too, had likely only happened a couple years ago. There was a visible air of immaturity about his features, his gaze fierce and sharp, and within his every action was a young man’s spirited vigor.
(7 Seas, Ch. 19)
and
Therefore, even though he’d entered the sect quite some time after Liu Qingge, because Qing Jing Peak was ranked second—only below Qiong Ding Peak—while Bai Zhan Peak was ranked seventh, Liu Qingge still had to address Shen Qingqiu as “Shixiong,” if through gritted teeth.
(7 Seas, Ch. 24)
So, Liu Qingge is likely a year or two younger than Shen Qingqiu, but not by too much, since they still behave very much like contemporaries as teenagers-- let's say that Liu Qingge is likely around 14-15 when Shen Qingqiu joins the sect at age 16.
The other peak lord we know a bit about the age of is Shang Qinghua:
The older-than-average outer disciple Shang Qinghua, who currently occupied a seventeen-year-old body, looked around in all directions as he trailed behind the main team, who were unloading goods from the ship onto the docks.
(7 Seas, Ch. 26)
He is seventeen here, and an outer disciple of An Ding Peak. We can place this a bit more definitively on the timeline by the fact that Shen Qingqiu is already a head disciple at this point in time:
“What I don’t know is how Shen Qingqiu got chosen as head disciple after starting cultivation so late,” said another outer disciple who’d joined Cang Qiong Mountain at an older age, his expression sour.
(7 Seas, Ch. 26)
Unfortunately, we cannot place the exact point in time where Shen Qingqiu became head disciple-- one possibility is that it couldn't have happened until after Tianlang-jun's defeat, which occured about four years after he joined the sect, since he did not participate in the battle. But that is a weak argument, since none of the current generation besides Yue Qingyuan participated in that battle:
Of the current peak lords, only Yue Qingyuan had participated in that battle, as the head disciple of Qiong Ding Peak.
(7 Seas, Ch. 17)
If using this argument, then that would mean that aside from Yue Qingyuan, none of the other peak lords had been chosen as head disciples at that time-- while that is a possibility, I think that a more feasible explanation would be that Yue Qingyuan was an exception, and participated in the battle specifically because of his wielding Xuan Su.
One thing we can extrapolate, however, is that Shang Qinghua was most likely an inner disciple for at least three years before the Qing generation's ascension. This is because of the following:
One day, Shang Qinghua’s concise Great System delivered a new command: Become the An Ding Peak head disciple within three years.
(7 Seas, Ch. 26)
Now, it is somewhat loose evidence, as there is nothing to say that "three years" means for certain that the ascension would occur three years from that point, but it does mean that it occured no earlier than that. By now, Shang Qinghua has already been an inner disciple for some time, long enough to have been assisted by Mobei-jun a few times and to have gone on several missions-- most likely around a few months to a year or so at minimum.
Of course, how long has passed between Shen Qingqiu joining the sect and this point? Well, since Shen Qingqiu is still described as a youth:
Shang Qinghua suddenly heard the tinkling of sword tassel pendants, and a youth wearing Qing Jing Peak’s uniform slowly approached him.
(7 Seas, Ch. 26)
Because of this description, I would say that Shen Qingqiu is most likely between seventeen and his early twenties, since it isn't particularly likely that he would become head disciple in less than a year after joining the sect. Of course, within this age range, there is one important event that occurs-- the battle of Bai Lu mountain, which would have occured when Shen Qingqiu was twenty and Yue Qingyuan was twenty-three.
Now, this gets into more of a speculation than anything else-- just before this point, Mobei-jun attacked Huan Hua Palace and the An Ding Peak disciples. If the battle of Bai Lu Mountain had already occured, it would have happened no more than a few years earlier. We also know that there is a tentative truce between the demon realm and the cultivation world:
This suggestion was solid. For many years, the Human and Demon Realms had maintained an uneasy balance and had yet to drop the pretense of peace. Eliminating Sha Hualing and her mob wouldn’t be impossible, but it would likely light a fuse. The demons definitely wouldn’t let her death go unanswered, and it wouldn’t be worth it if they stirred up an even greater conflict.
(7 Seas, Ch. 3)
I suspect that this pretense of peace was likely set in place after the battle of Bai Lu Mountain, when the demon realm had just lost their ruler.
Since just a short time had happened since the demons' defeat and a likely truce between the realms, I find it unlikely that Mobei-jun, a prominent member of demonic nobility, at this time would be actively antagonizing the cultivation world by attacking Huan Hua Palace and Cang Qiong Mountain. Now, of course, there is a potential alternate storyline that this is exactly what happened, and Mobei-jun went rogue as an act of lashing out, and that interpretation would be perfectly valid on its own.
Personally, though, I believe that Shang Qinghua's meeting with Mobei-jun occured before the battle of Bai Lu Mountain, while the cultivation world and demon world were in the tense state on the edge of war. This means that Shang Qinghua most likely became an inner disciple when Shen Qingqiu was around 17-19 years old.
With this information, we can determine some relative ages:
Yue Qingyuan is three years older than Shen Qingqiu, who is a little older than Liu Qingge. Because Shang Qinghua was seventeen when Shen Qingqiu was already head disciple, it is most likely that he is around Liu Qingge's age, give or take a few years, as it is not particularly likely (though potentially possible) for Shen Qingqiu to have gone from new disciple to head disciple in the space of a single year.
Aside from these four, there are no other ages that can be determined for the peak lords.
With all of this information, a fairly decent timeline can be created. Characters' ages will be listed with each notable year.
《 THE TIMELINE 》
*counted up to the start of SVSSS.
If using this timeline, keep in mind that the earliest and latest notes for date ranges can overlap-- do not accidentally have a disciple join the sect before the current peak lords ascend, or have SQH become head disciple after ascension! Dates with ranges are colored green (earliest) and red (latest).
Earlier than -21 YR
LQG: <;10-11
(earliest) Liu Qingge joins Cang Qiong Mountain
-21 YR
LQG: 10-11, SQQ: 12, YQY: 15, QHT: <16, QJL: 16
Shen Jiu sold to Qiu Jianluo
Yue Qi joins Cang Qiong Mountain
--IAC--
-19 YR
LQG: 12-13, SQQ: 14, YQY: 17
(earliest*) Yue Qingyuan enters the Lingxi Caves with Xuan Su
-18 YR
LQG: 13-14, SQQ: 15, YQY: 18, QHT: <19, QJL: 19
(latest*) Yue Qingyuan enters the Lingxi Caves with Xuan Su
Shen Jiu kills Qiu Jianluo and burns down Qiu Manor
Shen Jiu becomes Wu Yanzi's disciple
(earliest*) Yue Qi leaves the Lingxi Caves
(earliest*) Yue Qi becomes head disciple
(latest) Liu Qingge joins Cang Qiong Mountain
-17 YR
LQG: 14-15, SQQ: 16, YQY: 19
(latest*) Yue Qi leaves the Lingxi Caves
(latest*) Yue Qi becomes head disciple
--IAC--
Yue Qingyuan meets Su Xiyan
Shen Jiu kills Wu Yanzi and joins Cang Qiong Mountain
-16 YR
LQG: 15-16, SQH: 15-17, SQQ: 17, YQY: 20
(earliest) Shen Qingqiu becomes Head Disciple
(earliest) Shang Qinghua meets Mobei-jun and becomes inner disciple at age 17
(earliest) Shang Qinghua receives the directive to become head disciple within three years
(earliest) Shang Qinghua becomes head disciple
-14 YR
MF: 2, LQG: 17-18, SQH: 17-19, SQQ: 19, YQY: 22
(latest) Shen Qingqiu becomes Head Disciple
(latest) Shang Qinghua meets Mobei-jun and becomes inner disciple at age 17
(earliest**) Su Xiyan imprisoned and subjected to torture in Water Prison
This timeline operates under the following conditions. For some of these conditions, alternatives are discussed in the post above-- if you wish to use any of the alternative calculations, then you're more than welcome to adjust the timeline as applicable for your own use!
"Years" are counted from the first day of the spring festival/Chinese new year, rather than January 1
All character ages are nominal ages, so they were born in the year they are counted as age "1"
Luo Binghe was born after the new year, and so his nominal age is only about one year higher than chronological.
Shang Qinghua met Mobei-jun before the battle of Bai Lu Mountain
The system's time limit for SQH does reference the time of the Qing generation's ascension
The Immortal Alliance Conference takes place roughly in the middle of the year. Based on the fact that it is warm enough for the disciples to dip their feet into a stream and find that pleasant, it would make sense for the IAC to occur in a warmer season (Ch. 4)
Further References and Footnotes:
*Yue Qi was in the Lingxi Caves for more than one year and Qiu Manor had already been destroyed by the time he got out (Ch. 21)
**The birth of Luo Binghe occured a few days after the battle of Bai Lu Mountain. Depending on when LBH was born, it could be at the end of year -12 or the first few days of year -13 (Ch. 21)
***We do not know the earliest a child can join Cang Qiong Mountain, even though the appropriate age for cultivation most likely cuts off somewhere around 15 (due to YQY joining at that age and no comments about him being "too old"). For the purposes of this timeline, I am setting the absolute youngest to age 5, but more realistically a disciple wouldn't join until age 8-10 at the earliest.
****It is unknown whether the only time that disciples can join Cang Qiong Mountain is during the recruitment trials. Therefore, there remains a possibility for Ning Yingying to have joined the sect in the same year as Luo Binghe, but at some point before the recruitment trials due to connections. This can potentially be supported by Shen Jiu joining after the IAC, but at the same time, it is not confirmed that SJ joined CQM immediately, or if he had to wait until the next recruitment trial, so there is no clear canon precedent-- nonetheless, it is still possible. Note that Ning Yingying can only join at this late point if Luo Binghe joins at age 11, and after her. The only hard requirement is that NYY joined at some point before LBH.
*****I have placed this as the absolute latest time SQQ could have formed a golden core because this puts him at having been cultivating for sixteen years. It is a bit of a stretch already , but I don't think that "ten and a few" years could really be any longer than this. It is also worth noting that by the time SQQ reaches core formation, every other peak lord has already done so, with Yue Qingyuan first, Liu Qingge and Qi Qingqi next, and Shang Qinghua most likely last (Ch. 24)
--
Please let me know if you notice any errors in calculation, formatting, or missing details! This was quite substantial so there's a good chance I may have missed something.
Some of the points in this analysis and timeline calculations were brainstormed with the help of @zykamiliah , @cum-villain , @furbygoblinxiv . Many thanks!
I am annoyed with scum villain fans pulling the "unreliable narrator" card whenever a flaw of shen yuan gets pointed out by someone
he is not an unreliable narrator about himself, but about the others around him. that is the whole driving issue of the plot that he misunderstands everyone else. and him doing things like describing himself a neet, him calling sha hualing a loli, or him using slurs are not unreliable narration, but him having flaws like a human being. because you can't unreliably narrate your own physical actions unless you have some actual mental condition that makes you not properly perceive your own actions
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I've always wondered if the reason most people (including myself) don't find svsss's sex scenes "good" is because of a "lost in translation" issue, or if it's just a thing with the writing itself. personally i think that sqq's constant denial that he's enjoying himself because he's prideful and has internalized homophobia makes for awkward interpretations
the other interpretation is that mxtx is just indulging herself with her dubcon/consensual ncn play thing, which is not bad! but i remember the way i reacted to mdzs's sex scenes and then to svsss's sex scenes the first time i read them and, in retrospective, i just feel like there's something i'm missing.
I think it's not so much something getting lost in translation, but a failure to deliver a good parody on something. Sex in this genre is often pure toxicity depicted as the height of romantic ideal. Parodying requires showcasing it as bad or hurtful, but subverting requires the characters to not tolerate this behavior and demand change. Otherwise the readers are left with a hurtful scene and no resolve. That SVSSS lacks this last step could have several reasons.
Maybe MXTX loves the toxic tropes too much to truly subvert them in the end. Or she knows that they are seen as toxic by many, but doesn't really understand why and therefore didn't know what needed exposing and subverting. (A bit like a comedian who makes fun of something they did no research on and wonders why the joke came out offensive.) If it's one of these or a mixture of both, it could explain why some of the scenes are so jarring.
And there's another possibility. I've seen a lot of authors lament their publishers demanding integral things to be changed or removed completely, because they think readers want something different or they don't get why the author wrote things how they did. It's not so hard to imagine she did write something better suited, but had her publisher insist this wasn't what would make money until she changed it to fit the demanded usual toxic mold better, but still didn't go all the way to the characters enjoying it and it left the sex as bad as it is. Who knows?
I agree with others that the scenes are supposed to be funny by showing that LBH is bad in bed. And the concept would be hilarious, if SQQ was every time just bored or disappointed. But sadly it's not just that. And so the joke didn't really land. MXTX was very good with parodying things throughout the book, which makes it so much more sad that she failed to do it well for this topic.
And because OP wondered about this in the comments, many ancient cultures had very weird, disgusting ideas regarding gay sex, but especially when it was about the receiving.
The Vikings thought a man who behaved in an unmanly way, which included bottoming, could be outlawed. Anyone who was called Ergi or argr (the noun and adjective for this) needed to challenge the one saying it to a Holmgang (a duel). If they didn't, it was automatically assumed the insult was justified and the accused could be outlawed just for this. If the accused won the duel, the accuser had to pay them full compensation for the unjustified insult. Meanwhile it was allowed to top a slave, regardless of their consent (which is dubious at best anyway), because slaves had no rights or honor in their society anyway.
Ancient Greeks didn't care whether men had sex with men, as long as they assumed the active role. Someone receiving was often ridiculed and the family might have worried for their son to be weak and unfit.
Not sure how it was in Ancient China, but from what I heard so far, this is probably a bit similar to how it was in Greece. Or rather, people had little problems with men having a male lover on the side and a wife to make babies with. Please, do correct me if I'm wrong on this.
So, the distinction into top and bottom, with all the stereotypical manly attributes assigned to the top and the passive more feminine traits assigned to the bottom, isn't just so female readers can identify with the uke/shou/bottom. It has been depicted with these icky stereotypes for hundreds of years.
how can you be sure there's no something lost in translation? have you read the original text? i made the question in the hopes the chinese speakers in the fandom could share some insight. I know for a fact that sometimes english smut doesn't translate well into spanish, and vice versa.
everything else you've said is speculation. my question is what's different between mdzs and svsss's sex scenes, and in the end it all seems to point down to one things: how the pov character narrates it, his reactions to it, and how that influences the readers' interpretation.
it's very obvious sqq during sex is always struggling with his own sense of pride as a man, and the shame he feels not only for assuming that role, but also enjoying it. as you pointed out, there's cultural past (and present, since there's still even to this day shame attached to the bottom/"female" role in a relationship) surrounding this issue. the lose of face, the sense of degradation and humiliation he feels, it's all related to his internalized homophobia and other sexist prejudices he's internalized.
there's also this idea of purity of character being divorced from "deviant" behaviors, which includes enthusiastically enjoying sex in a way that would be labeled, in accordance with those prejudices, as dishonorable and morally degrading. stereotypes like the madonna and the whore, for example, posit that the madonna is desexualized in contrast with the whore, who enjoys sex, something that's seen profane, impure, as everything related to the lower parts of the body is dirty, mundane, etc etc.
there's this passage in a book i read, (it's originally in spanish btw) about the erotic projection of the japanese people in a sociocultural level in regards to how sexual dynamics are in hentai is portrayed.
To the western eye, the violent and sadomasochistic activities present in the erotic modulations of Japanese art could be seen as grotesque externalizations of a twisted mentality; however, shibari showcases that the rape and sexual torture sessions respond to a need of satisfying the libido through a rupture with the boundaries established by the ever-present morality.
This explains how the bound character at first resists to the shameful situation -- shame carries a greater weight in Japanese psyche than the sense of guilt for the western person-- and then surrenders to the enjoyment that's being offered. Just by being bound and defenseless the subject can find the spiritual freedom that sexuality provides.
-Hentai. Introducción al anime erótico japonés, p.40 (translation by me)
I know the topic here is japanese hentai, but there are many cultural overlaps with chinese and japanese cultures. i would still like to read some chinese research in this topic, though.
IMO, sqq has the same attitude as described: lbh pushes, sqq resists, and it's not until lbh overwhelms him that sqq finally allows himself to "surrender to lbh's techniques".
so, contrast wwx's "shamelessness", which is just enthusiasm that he shows in actions and words, to sqq's shame, his reticence, repression and denial to even consider the fact that he had a good time. it's concerning that wwx's attitude toward sex is labeled "shameless" when it's just enthusiastic and open.
misogynist beliefs always make their way to bl literature, no matter who is writing it. the way the woman is perceived in a culture directly correlates to how a queer man who takes the bottom or passive role is perceived, and then portrayed in fiction.
A more in depth comparison from people who can read the original would be very good, I agree with that.
However, the main difference that sets SVSSS sex scenes apart from everything else you mentioned, MDZS as well as all other sadomasochistically inspired BL and Hentai tropes alike that isn't outright intended to be non-con and seen as such, is that all the participants noticeably get pleasure from the act.
In SVSSS we mostly see SQQ be in pain, nauseous, uncomfortable and humiliated, constantly getting ignored when he makes complaints and then be in more pain and humiliation without clear enjoyment. If the entirety of descriptions for SQQ's pleasure was lost in translation, the translators should get a different job.
...the topic at hand is how sqq's narration, due to his internalized prejudices, obfuscates the fact that he feels pleasure. you wouldn't know it if it weren't for a couple of quick, offhand comments, because his sense of shame doesn't let him admit even to himself that he's having a good time. he's frank enough to himself to admit that if lbh pushed, he would give in, meaning that he needs lbh to push him, to cajole him into "giving in", because sqq's shame and pride as a man won't allow him to do it any other way.
i haven't yet seen evidence that contradicts my interpretation, so i won't be changing it
...I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like this taken further on this post. Or would this be alright for you? Otherwise I'd make an own post where I go in full detail why I disagree that SQQ is just too ashamed to admit he's loving it.
Thinking about it, I should do this anyway and give you the link. I'll need a while to write everything with quotes down and also your post won't get further derailed. And you and others can decide whether to look at it at all.
I've always wondered if the reason most people (including myself) don't find svsss's sex scenes "good" is because of a "lost in translation" issue, or if it's just a thing with the writing itself. personally i think that sqq's constant denial that he's enjoying himself because he's prideful and has internalized homophobia makes for awkward interpretations
the other interpretation is that mxtx is just indulging herself with her dubcon/consensual ncn play thing, which is not bad! but i remember the way i reacted to mdzs's sex scenes and then to svsss's sex scenes the first time i read them and, in retrospective, i just feel like there's something i'm missing.
I think it's not so much something getting lost in translation, but a failure to deliver a good parody on something. Sex in this genre is often pure toxicity depicted as the height of romantic ideal. Parodying requires showcasing it as bad or hurtful, but subverting requires the characters to not tolerate this behavior and demand change. Otherwise the readers are left with a hurtful scene and no resolve. That SVSSS lacks this last step could have several reasons.
Maybe MXTX loves the toxic tropes too much to truly subvert them in the end. Or she knows that they are seen as toxic by many, but doesn't really understand why and therefore didn't know what needed exposing and subverting. (A bit like a comedian who makes fun of something they did no research on and wonders why the joke came out offensive.) If it's one of these or a mixture of both, it could explain why some of the scenes are so jarring.
And there's another possibility. I've seen a lot of authors lament their publishers demanding integral things to be changed or removed completely, because they think readers want something different or they don't get why the author wrote things how they did. It's not so hard to imagine she did write something better suited, but had her publisher insist this wasn't what would make money until she changed it to fit the demanded usual toxic mold better, but still didn't go all the way to the characters enjoying it and it left the sex as bad as it is. Who knows?
I agree with others that the scenes are supposed to be funny by showing that LBH is bad in bed. And the concept would be hilarious, if SQQ was every time just bored or disappointed. But sadly it's not just that. And so the joke didn't really land. MXTX was very good with parodying things throughout the book, which makes it so much more sad that she failed to do it well for this topic.
And because OP wondered about this in the comments, many ancient cultures had very weird, disgusting ideas regarding gay sex, but especially when it was about the receiving.
The Vikings thought a man who behaved in an unmanly way, which included bottoming, could be outlawed. Anyone who was called Ergi or argr (the noun and adjective for this) needed to challenge the one saying it to a Holmgang (a duel). If they didn't, it was automatically assumed the insult was justified and the accused could be outlawed just for this. If the accused won the duel, the accuser had to pay them full compensation for the unjustified insult. Meanwhile it was allowed to top a slave, regardless of their consent (which is dubious at best anyway), because slaves had no rights or honor in their society anyway.
Ancient Greeks didn't care whether men had sex with men, as long as they assumed the active role. Someone receiving was often ridiculed and the family might have worried for their son to be weak and unfit.
Not sure how it was in Ancient China, but from what I heard so far, this is probably a bit similar to how it was in Greece. Or rather, people had little problems with men having a male lover on the side and a wife to make babies with. Please, do correct me if I'm wrong on this.
So, the distinction into top and bottom, with all the stereotypical manly attributes assigned to the top and the passive more feminine traits assigned to the bottom, isn't just so female readers can identify with the uke/shou/bottom. It has been depicted with these icky stereotypes for hundreds of years.
how can you be sure there's no something lost in translation? have you read the original text? i made the question in the hopes the chinese speakers in the fandom could share some insight. I know for a fact that sometimes english smut doesn't translate well into spanish, and vice versa.
everything else you've said is speculation. my question is what's different between mdzs and svsss's sex scenes, and in the end it all seems to point down to one things: how the pov character narrates it, his reactions to it, and how that influences the readers' interpretation.
it's very obvious sqq during sex is always struggling with his own sense of pride as a man, and the shame he feels not only for assuming that role, but also enjoying it. as you pointed out, there's cultural past (and present, since there's still even to this day shame attached to the bottom/"female" role in a relationship) surrounding this issue. the lose of face, the sense of degradation and humiliation he feels, it's all related to his internalized homophobia and other sexist prejudices he's internalized.
there's also this idea of purity of character being divorced from "deviant" behaviors, which includes enthusiastically enjoying sex in a way that would be labeled, in accordance with those prejudices, as dishonorable and morally degrading. stereotypes like the madonna and the whore, for example, posit that the madonna is desexualized in contrast with the whore, who enjoys sex, something that's seen profane, impure, as everything related to the lower parts of the body is dirty, mundane, etc etc.
there's this passage in a book i read, (it's originally in spanish btw) about the erotic projection of the japanese people in a sociocultural level in regards to how sexual dynamics are in hentai is portrayed.
To the western eye, the violent and sadomasochistic activities present in the erotic modulations of Japanese art could be seen as grotesque externalizations of a twisted mentality; however, shibari showcases that the rape and sexual torture sessions respond to a need of satisfying the libido through a rupture with the boundaries established by the ever-present morality.
This explains how the bound character at first resists to the shameful situation -- shame carries a greater weight in Japanese psyche than the sense of guilt for the western person-- and then surrenders to the enjoyment that's being offered. Just by being bound and defenseless the subject can find the spiritual freedom that sexuality provides.
-Hentai. Introducción al anime erótico japonés, p.40 (translation by me)
I know the topic here is japanese hentai, but there are many cultural overlaps with chinese and japanese cultures. i would still like to read some chinese research in this topic, though.
IMO, sqq has the same attitude as described: lbh pushes, sqq resists, and it's not until lbh overwhelms him that sqq finally allows himself to "surrender to lbh's techniques".
so, contrast wwx's "shamelessness", which is just enthusiasm that he shows in actions and words, to sqq's shame, his reticence, repression and denial to even consider the fact that he had a good time. it's concerning that wwx's attitude toward sex is labeled "shameless" when it's just enthusiastic and open.
misogynist beliefs always make their way to bl literature, no matter who is writing it. the way the woman is perceived in a culture directly correlates to how a queer man who takes the bottom or passive role is perceived, and then portrayed in fiction.
A more in depth comparison from people who can read the original would be very good, I agree with that.
However, the main difference that sets SVSSS sex scenes apart from everything else you mentioned, MDZS as well as all other sadomasochistically inspired BL and Hentai tropes alike that isn't outright intended to be non-con and seen as such, is that all the participants noticeably get pleasure from the act.
In SVSSS we mostly see SQQ be in pain, nauseous, uncomfortable and humiliated, constantly getting ignored when he makes complaints and then be in more pain and humiliation without clear enjoyment. If the entirety of descriptions for SQQ's pleasure was lost in translation, the translators should get a different job.
I've always wondered if the reason most people (including myself) don't find svsss's sex scenes "good" is because of a "lost in translation" issue, or if it's just a thing with the writing itself. personally i think that sqq's constant denial that he's enjoying himself because he's prideful and has internalized homophobia makes for awkward interpretations
the other interpretation is that mxtx is just indulging herself with her dubcon/consensual ncn play thing, which is not bad! but i remember the way i reacted to mdzs's sex scenes and then to svsss's sex scenes the first time i read them and, in retrospective, i just feel like there's something i'm missing.
I think it's not so much something getting lost in translation, but a failure to deliver a good parody on something. Sex in this genre is often pure toxicity depicted as the height of romantic ideal. Parodying requires showcasing it as bad or hurtful, but subverting requires the characters to not tolerate this behavior and demand change. Otherwise the readers are left with a hurtful scene and no resolve. That SVSSS lacks this last step could have several reasons.
Maybe MXTX loves the toxic tropes too much to truly subvert them in the end. Or she knows that they are seen as toxic by many, but doesn't really understand why and therefore didn't know what needed exposing and subverting. (A bit like a comedian who makes fun of something they did no research on and wonders why the joke came out offensive.) If it's one of these or a mixture of both, it could explain why some of the scenes are so jarring.
And there's another possibility. I've seen a lot of authors lament their publishers demanding integral things to be changed or removed completely, because they think readers want something different or they don't get why the author wrote things how they did. It's not so hard to imagine she did write something better suited, but had her publisher insist this wasn't what would make money until she changed it to fit the demanded usual toxic mold better, but still didn't go all the way to the characters enjoying it and it left the sex as bad as it is. Who knows?
I agree with others that the scenes are supposed to be funny by showing that LBH is bad in bed. And the concept would be hilarious, if SQQ was every time just bored or disappointed. But sadly it's not just that. And so the joke didn't really land. MXTX was very good with parodying things throughout the book, which makes it so much more sad that she failed to do it well for this topic.
And because OP wondered about this in the comments, many ancient cultures had very weird, disgusting ideas regarding gay sex, but especially when it was about the receiving.
The Vikings thought a man who behaved in an unmanly way, which included bottoming, could be outlawed. Anyone who was called Ergi or argr (the noun and adjective for this) needed to challenge the one saying it to a Holmgang (a duel). If they didn't, it was automatically assumed the insult was justified and the accused could be outlawed just for this. If the accused won the duel, the accuser had to pay them full compensation for the unjustified insult. Meanwhile it was allowed to top a slave, regardless of their consent (which is dubious at best anyway), because slaves had no rights or honor in their society anyway.
Ancient Greeks didn't care whether men had sex with men, as long as they assumed the active role. Someone receiving was often ridiculed and the family might have worried for their son to be weak and unfit.
Not sure how it was in Ancient China, but from what I heard so far, this is probably a bit similar to how it was in Greece. Or rather, people had little problems with men having a male lover on the side and a wife to make babies with. Please, do correct me if I'm wrong on this.
So, the distinction into top and bottom, with all the stereotypical manly attributes assigned to the top and the passive more feminine traits assigned to the bottom, isn't just so female readers can identify with the uke/shou/bottom. It has been depicted with these icky stereotypes for hundreds of years.
TLJ survives post-canon. It becomes known that the OPM manipulated everyone and that Tianlang-jun was innocent. YQY feels guilty for, you know, helping dump a mountain on him, and goes to apologize. TLJ forgives him, they talk (YQY finds TLJ... charmingly insufferable?) maybe it turns out that TLJ knows of a demon artifact that could separate YQY's lifeforce from Xuan Su? something something yeah idk .... enemies to lovers YQY and TLJ ....
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Silly idea of the day is Mobei-jun breaking Tianlang-jun out from under the mountain because he looked the workload of running the entire demon realm in the eye and said no thank you, fuck that noise.
I've been thinking about Tianlang-jun and all the time he spent wandering the human realm and it probably means one of two things:
He is Junshang in-name-only, sort of like Binghe, where he's the strongest so he can go wherever he pleases and do whatever he wants. Only the benefits, no actual ruling, but nobody can effectively dethrone him because heavenly demon too strong.
He does all his obligatory ruling, but he is really efficient about it. He goes back to the demon realm for like a week every so often when he holds open court for a few days, deals with all the piled up paperwork and then leaves everything in the hands of competent subordinates as he goes back to living his best life doing whatever
And if it's that second one I can imagine it would be something Mobei-jun, who seem to like spending much of his day resting, would probably admire if he ever met the old Junshang. That's the sort of efficiency he strives to achieve too, but preferably on a smaller scale, so he can have all the uninterrupted naps in Qinghua's bed he wants.
But then Luo Binghe climbs back out of the endless abyss and beats Mobei-jun and tries to recruit him to his cause, by virtue of I Beat You I'm Your Boss Now. Mobei usually doesn't mind that sort of thing, except after spending a few excruciating hours in Binghe's company he comes to the dreadful realization that, by demon standards, the new wannabe Junshang has the leadership qualities and general charisma of a wet tissue. Binghe is 100% Shizun-brained, which is not that unusual, demons do often feel that kind of singular devotion to their mates, but he absolutely doesn't have the right upbringing to function around that emotion.
Unless Mobei-jun can get off this ride really fucking quickly then he's going to be stuck doing all the practical parts of ruling the united demon realm, while Luo Binghe does his best impression of a househusband to his beloved Shizun.
No more time for lazy weekends when he can hunt to his leisure and ignore petitions for a few days. No more slacking off in Qinghua's home. And speaking of Qinghua, more work for Mobei-jun is inevitably more work for Shang Qinghua.
If Shang Qinghua gets swamped with even more work then he might actually go through with his often mumbled threats of leaving Mobei-jun.
He can't allow that to happen.
But Mobei-jun is currently no match for Luo Binghe and who knows when he will inherit his clan's ancestral power, so he needs to find someone else who can beat the half-heavenly demon for him. Someone he wouldn't mind serving if it comes to that.
It's really not as difficult as he expects to find out where the cultivators have sealed Tianlang-jun. The arrays give him some trouble, but nothing he can't solve by making a copy that he sneaks into Shang Qinghua's paperwork. Not letting him know the importance of something is a good way to make sure it gets solved along with the routine stuff, because Qinghua will just do it on autopilot instead of worrying about it and overthinking it.
All in all, it's a piece of cake. Tianlang-jun is recovered and nursed back to health with the ridiculous amount of miracle flowers Mobei-jun has picked up over the years for Qinghua. He might have actually come out of this stronger than he was before and without an ailing body to nerf him there really isn't much that can stand against Tianlang-jun. Xin Mo who? A sword is as strong as the person wielding it and against the combined might of two heavenly demons and Mobei's portal powers Luo Binghe comes up short. Long live the old Junshang, thank fuck he's back.
Tianlang-jun's newfound fixation with taking revenge on the cultivators is a bit of an issue, but Mobei-jun is certain Qinghua will find a way to placate him somehow. He has all that dirt on Huan Hua Palace after all, maybe eradicating the sect that was the loudest voice for imprisoning him will be enough to sate the Junshang's bloodthirst. Anyway, in the meantime the demon realm is finally running as it should and Mobei can look forward to a future filled with lazy afternoons and plenty of free time he can spend with his human.
As far as he's concerned, all is right in the world.
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