#tyrells

Let me tell you why!

I know, i know, i know, I KNOW that most people headcanon France as the Reach but as italian i see at least 8-10 similarities with Italy instead.

Please hear me out :

Tyrell's colors and features are more stereotypical south Europeans that support the idea of a very warm climate unlike most of France.

The new faith imposed over the pagan ancient rituals is clearly the "Christian one" (God is one in 7 = God is the Thrinity) and the biggest city in Reach becoming THE city of this new religion, where all the knowledges of that religion is preserved, mirrors last centuries of roman empire and the knowledge preserved in Rome.

Old Town being so old that none remember when it was founded and that was already there when Andals arrived recall Rome being "the eternal city" and arrivals of Barbarians that open the "dark age"/middle age.

All this happen in a territory known for a fertil soil since Italy was called "the garden of Europe" by European scholars for it's fertility and some foods from Italy were perceived as exotic and high-quality/class in Middle age north Europe.

This same territory is famous for luxury commerce; even now tourism is just the third most prosperous italian sector, luxury items as high fashion and luxury cars are the first, and even in past italians were famous for clothes.

Early Middle-Age Italy was famous for the Four Marittime Republics and the Reach have a big navy.

Tyrells and Hightower with their schemes and the habits of marry mostly people from inside their territory recalls Borgia and Medici, that rarely married not italian.

Medici and Tyrells share some similarity being both families that weren't originally meant to seat at the table with biggest one : the Tyrells never ruled as kings and originally were among the lower ranking houses of the Reach and just supported their power by marry into higher families, while Medici were originally bankers that heavily intermarriade with high rate local italian nobility to support their raise to the control of the richest city of Italy (Florence) back then. Both families use flowers as coat of arm.

Borgia and Hightowers too share some similarity : both were famous for having some members with very light colors in hair and eyes, unlike the Medici that were mostly brunettes (Ludovico dei Medici was called the Moor for his dark hairs) like Tyrells, both had members that were famously speculated to be involved into dark magic, both married primarily into their local city (Old Town/Rome) high nobility, both had deep ties with the dominant new religion (we had many Borgia as cardinals and popes).

Caterina de Medici and Maria de Medici (aunt and niece) being accused to be unfaithfull and too concerned with Italy's glory and interest over France's ones by French, recalls Cersei vs Olenna and Margaery's beef.

HighGarden was a rich court with great scholars and Italy created the bases for Reinassence in Middle Age, while other european countries experimented Reinassence only in Modern age.

Italians were perceived as sexually promiscuous and "too much into erotic songs/poetries" and Tyrells seems to love literature and sex.

You can call me delulu now, i surely am..but not fully.

Hi there!

I'm a bit more ambivalent about her. I think it's possible that she manipulates Sansa to learn more about Joffrey and yet doesn't wish her evil. These are not necessarily mutually exclusive?

As for Margaery's advice? They left out some of the Tyrells. In the books it's Garland Tyrell who tells Sansa she might be happy with the 'dwarf' or at least happier than she would have been with Loras.

I think the Tyrells are all like that. They look after their interest but apart from Olenna they are not actively working against people who are not enemies. They planned to wed Sansa to Willas for her claim and do that under the guise of helping her (and it would have helped Sansa to escape the Lannisters) but when it comes down to it, it's not about helping her but how useful she is. They are not monsters. They are still nice to Sansa but they also don't go out of their way to really help her (or Garlan would have offered to help Sansa escape). Sansa is so used to the abuse of Joffrey's court that a kind word makes a huge difference.

I don't know if that means that the Tyrells are not 'genuine'. They never promised escape, just a marriage to Willas - which suited them. And when that didn't work out they were polite, even somewhat nice, but unhelpful. On the other hand they never promised anything else. So, they are neutral with a hint of benevolence as long as it doesn't go against their interest?

I don't especially like Margaery's advice but it's quite smoke to what her brother says in the books.

Margaery

Loras

Olenna

High Sparrow

Hi, thanks for the question. To be honest, I don’t have a clear answer. I’ve thought about it many times.

TLDR; Olenna not liking Mace is a combination of family relationships and perhaps polital tactics. Mace is certainly not a puppet nor a complete fool. But he isn’t the smartest either, I’d say he is about average and certainly has some flaws.

Long text (sorry, if brevity’s the soul of wit, I don’t have it)

I believe it’s a good case of a pair of ego’s bumping against each other, the older generation looking down on the next, Olenna being unsatisfied that her child doesn’t exactly act as she would, and some truth.

Olenna sees herself as a very clever cunning woman, and she is, undoubtedly, but bookwise we have awfully little to stave that as we know little of what she has achieved. What we do know is that Olenna is very much involved in marriage politics, she claims to have boycotted a marriage to Daeron Targaryen, and was very involved in Margaery’s engagement to Joffrey by talking it over with Littlefinger and Sansa. And like many old women she loves to stick her nose into everything. So I do believe she tries to exercise as much influence as she can. She also arranged (it's unclear at what age her husband died) the marriages between her children en some of the greatest and oldest houses in the Reach (Redwyne, Hightower, Fossoway)

Secondly, an often used technique to get people to talk, is to start critiquing people. Once you start talking trash about somebody, people are quick to jump in. Olenna complaining about her family members might be a way to see who agrees, and is thus against her family. It’s Westeros, Family backstabbing is a sport there so most would not look for an ulterior motive when someone starts trash talking their family. Secondly, Littlefinger and Doran Martell both believe it can be beneficial to be perceived as weak and stupid. Perhaps she tries to get people to underestimate Mace by insulting him and getting to hear the genuine frustrations people have about him. This is however, speculation. Olenna is probably no master pupeteer. A pupeteer is someone who exercises control over someone. Olenna constantly complains about Mace and calls him dumb. Personally, when I call people dumb, nine times out of ten it is because I don’t agree with their decisions. Mace obviously has no problem ignoring his mother, otherwise she wouldn’t be as annoyed. Olenna might influence some decisions, but she has no full power over Mace.

Next as to whether Mace, who clearly makes his own decisions from time to time, is oafish. What do we actually know? He’s not the best military tactician. It’s been pointed out that the military succeses he did have, were because of Randyll Tarly, Kevan Lannister believes that with Tywin dead, no one is better suited to lead an army than Randyll. Not Mace, not Jaime, but Randyll. Randyll was also the real hero of the ONLY battle we know Mace took part in, and Mace totally stole the credit for the victory. That doesn’t make Mace an oaf, but he is at least arrogant and silly for claiming military victories and pretending he’s good at war. Mace is also proud of his siege of Storm's End during the rebellion. Now, I have seen on certain fora that it could have been a deliberate move by Mace. By dragging out the siege he didn’t kill lords of other houses (which would make post-war diplomacy for the Tyrells hard or could potentially result in revenge plots if the war turned out in the favour of Robert, and that was the case), nor could he be blamed of abandoning the Targaryen cause. Keeping the siege also meant he didn’t lose his men in war, didn’t lose face nor was branded a coward by not doing anything. Mace also had heirs to spare by the time of the Rebellion, so it's not like he couldn't ride out in battle like so many other lords because he had to protect his family's future. I reason he’s at least a bit of a coward who wasn’t willing to get hurt. He was deliberately avoiding battle because he KNEW he wasn’t good at it. So +1 for his knowledge of self and avoiding situations that would have outed his weaknesses, but a great military mastermind? Nope.

Mace’s "Always side with the winning team” approach has kept the Reach safe from most harm in Westeros. Which meant the Reach was never punished by a ruling king, this must have been pretty great in the eye of his regional lords. His politics have kept the Reach at least stable, but was that deliberate? Or was it just a coincidence that him jumping ship benefitted the other lords? But is Mace a good ruler of the Reach? Well, the only thing we know he did for the reach was marry a Hightower. But personally, I believe his marriage was decided upon by his parents. Almost all marriages in Westeros are. But it is interesting to me that the Tyrells almost always marry within the Reach, and almost always to one of the houses that are supposed to hail from Garth Greenhand’s children. If all your high families are interwoven, it’s hard for them to take up arms against you. On the other hand, a need for intermarriage could also point towards a fear of the other noble houses in the Reach.

But tbh I don't think Mace cares for the Reach or for Highgarden, as far as we know he only ever cared about his standing in King's Landing. For starters: Mace didn't have to be in KL, he could have sent just his sons, daughter, wive and mother. Instead, he left the Reach in the hands of his son. The Western coasts have been attacked by Ironborn for months and what does Mace do? Nothing. The Shields are taken? Nothing. Also, given how stressed Loras is about needing to sail to the Shields after they were attacked, and given Loras rashly attacked Dragonstone, I believe Mace didn’t leave enough soldiers within the Reach so it could protect itself. Otherwise Loras wouldn’t be so desperate to go there with his men. It would also explain why Willas didn't do anything

Alright, but now for his King’s Landing Politics: - He locked down the Rose Road, leading to riots and starvation in King’s Landing. A great move to apply pressure on the council, and he kept the pressure on until he had a sweet deal in regards to marrying Margaery to Joffrey.

- He doesn’t do anything as master of ships

- He does want more positions for the Reach on the small council but doesn’t get these in AFFC. he doesn’t “win” them either, he just manages to get them because Cersei screwed herself by letting the Faith arrest Margaery. Now that Mace is Hand of the King, Tarly justiciar and Redwyne Lord Admiral he has all positions he wants. But what has he decided? What did they do? What was their plan with those posts? It isn’t clear

- Mace was laying siege to Storm’s End and could have prevented Aegon/young Griff from taking it. But the second he heard Margaery was arrested he came to King’s Landing with his full military force, not even leaving some troops behind that could’ve kept up the siege against the few men Stannis had left behind. Because of it, the siege was ruined, and  Griff managed to take it (or so we hear in the released WoW chapters). That’s just straight dumb-assery, he could have used his men wiser. And he wasn’t just laying siege for Cersei's sake, the Reach is nearby Storm's End, he risked his own territory. And what was he even going to do with the soldiers he marched up to KL? Lay siege to KL? Really? Good luck boy, to succesfully take KL you need ships, and the Redwyne ships weren't anywhere near him.

- Mace is risking all the family wealth for his political greed: It is known the Iron Throne has huge debts and still he wants his cousin Garth The Gross as Lord Treasurer. As father of the queen, and as hand, he was already expected to cough up for the throne. if the throne goes bankrupt, and the throne has to start demanding money from all lords and smallfolk in winter... shit isn’t going to be pretty. It was already going to be bad. But to have the main responsible for the money be your own family, queen, hand and treasurer? The Tyrells are doing good but that’s a ticket to bankrupcy. He wants power so bad it’s going to screw him over.

- Winter is coming and he isn’t worried at all (and that’s a thing I blame every player of the game of thrones for).

So all by all Mace isn’t blatantly stupid. He can be diplomatic and courtly, and knows the game of “give and take” politics better than say Stannis or Ned. He can also lie easily. He also knows how to exercise image control, he’s called the fat flower by his mother and is despised and mistrusted by Cersei but given that he has no real military victories to his name and has done nothing but switch sides for over twenty years, his reputation could be so much worse, yet it isn’t. But he is at least a bit negligent of the Reach, is power hungry, doesn’t think long term, has weak military skills, can’t think clearly in times of crisis (like Margaery’s arrest) and his moves are just plain predictable at this point.

I’d also say much of his "wins” relied on luck: Margaery becoming queen was partially up to luck and circumstance. If Ned had been succesful in telling Robert about the twincest, then Margaery could have become Robert’s queen as Renly suggested. But the Tyrells didn't do anything to help Ned so the Tyrells weren’t working towards it. It was only after Robert died that Margaery married Renly (second attempt at making her a queen), then they brokered a deal with the Lannisters after they locked down the rose road (attempt 3 to get margaery on the iron throne) , so on. Mace also has four adult children, and only one of them was married by the start of the books. Why didn’t he marry them to influential houses? Or at least promise them? How old were they supposed to get before he would start marrying them? Mace wanted more Reach men on the small council but once again he did nothing to accomplish this except complain when Cersei ignored his wish. Complaining isn’t scheming. It was only because Cersei screwed herself by arresting Margaery that she was stripped of her position of power and Mace and his friends gained their positions. Because contrary to Cersei, Kevan is a sane person who knows the Lannisters must treasure the allies they have.