#osdd-2

i’m not sure if i’m the right person to speak on this, especially since my diagnosis has changed multiple times. at first, i was told i had hallucinatory delusional disorder—only to later be told that diagnosis doesn’t even formally exist. another psychiatrist changed it to bipolar II, and eventually, all of that was scrapped. i’m still in the process of trying to find real answers.

My therapist just told me that I don't even have delusions, just very extreme intrusive thoughts and severe depersonalization.

what i do experience is intense dissociation, and what could be described as “hearing voices,” though it’s not exactly a sound. it’s something between a thought and an external voice. sometimes i can hear a direction, or distinct tones like different people speaking, but what they’re saying rarely makes sense. it’s like fragments of a conversation, but the context is missing.

for me, what’s pushed me into dangerous territory hasn’t necessarily been the voices themselves, but the nightmares that come with them—and how much i’ve overanalyzed what they seemed to be telling me. trauma plays a huge role in how that spirals. i won’t go into it here, but it’s a big part of the picture.

that’s why i’d really love to see a more layered depiction of Dust. i actually have my own fanfic where i try to explore these kinds of things, but looking back, i worry that in trying to vent through him, i might’ve accidentally written something that came off as ableist. it’s hard to toe that line when you’re writing from pain.

i think what i want—more than anything—from portrayals of Dust is for his symptoms to go beyond just “hallucinating Papyrus.” i want to see the paranoia, the delusions, the intrusive thoughts, the nightmares, the flashbacks. the dissociation. the disorganized thinking and speech. the whole picture of what it feels like when your mind isn’t a safe place anymore.

right now, i’m still going through a diagnostic process. i’m crossing my fingers that i don’t get hit with another heavily stigmatized label—and honestly, that whatever i have is something treatable. but more and more, i feel like it all traces back to trauma. i relate to Dust so deeply it almost scares me sometimes, he has so much potential.

You and I are on the same page about wanting to see more depictions beyond hallucinations, although I was of course thinking of wanting to see more of those depictions with Killer.

Unfortunately, it’s very common in this fandom for Killer’s own psychosis to be ignored, overlooked, or just not know about—which is one reason why the common depiction of Killer making fun of Dust’s hallucinations doesn’t make any sense, given Killer hallucinates too.

And he has various forms of hallucinations, from vivid and real, to shadowy figures that watch him or attempt to reach out and touch him. He has full on and back forth conversations with “Chara” despite them not being real, when asked where Chara is he points directly at his own head—“it’s all in your head” is a common phrase associated with Killer.

He has flashbacks, hears multiple voices in his head in different ways—voices from flashbacks, the internal voices he relies on to make any choices on his own—he dissociates heavily, he experiences black out amnesia with Stage 4 and loses control over his own body. He struggles to tell what is and isn’t real thanks to the constant Resets, he constantly feels like he’s being watched by Chara.

He views himself as just something with Sans’ face. He often is showing having back and forth conversations internally and externally as if he’s watching himself argue with himself, his internal conflict is so severe that he sometimes even verbalizes it—which often comes out in confused, contradictory statements, especially when asked anything about himself. When asked how he’s feeling, he answers like “I’m fi—I don’t know. …I’m okay.”

And that’s just one example of it, the entire first page of the Something New comics shows his fragmented thought processes pretty clearly. He shows a deep awareness that something about him has changed, that he’s not the same as he was, but he doesn’t why and he doesn’t seem to know how to stop it.

He seems to struggle a lot with distressing cognitive dissonance, such as killing because he wants to feel something but knowing it doesn’t actually make him feel anything—seemingly believing he only exists because someone else wanted him to. [“Killer Sans exists because of you.”] Feeling more like a role or script than an actual person living a life.

All of this comes from both trauma, and externally induced dissociation + coercion, manipulation. This is a man who doesn’t know who or what he is anymore.

Bucky Barnes/The Winter Soldier from Marvel has OSDD-2

no no no no. Everyone experiences dissociation. Most people don’t experience it in a way that interferes with life, though.  Dissociation is often developed as a coping mechanism for trauma and overwhelming stress, though dissociation can be due to other things, as well. There are many dissociative disorders and disorders that can include dissociation.  Dissociative disorders include:

Derealization/Depersonalization Disorder,

Dissociative Amnesia (Dissociative Amnesia is present in DID, but can also be its own disorder.)

OSDD (Otherwise Specified Dissociative Disorder)  Link 2: X. 

DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder), and 

UDD (Unspecified Dissociative Disorder)

OSDD has multiple subtypes as well.

OSDD-1: Similar to DID, but either has less distinct parts (type 1a) or no amnesia (type 1b).

OSDD-2: Identity disturbance due to prolonged and intense coercive persuasion (I won’t lie, I don’t completely understand what OSDD-2 entails, I copy and pasted from traumadissociation.com)

OSDD-3: Acute Dissociation in response to stressful events. This dissociative disorder usually lasts less than a month, and often even less (hours, days, weeks).

 OSDD-4: Dissociative trance.

“Problematic” dissociation can occur in Borderline Personality Disorder (criterion 9: transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms), Complex PTSD, psychosis, and probably others that I am not thinking of, as well.

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OSDD is not just the “plural disorder.” OSDD-1, the ones with alters and systems, does form from childhood trauma. OSDD is diagnosed when someone shows signs of a dissociative disorder, but does not meet criteria for an already existing dissociative disorder.

The main dissociative disorders are Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), Dissociative Amnesia, and Derealization Depersonalization Disorder (DPDR).

If one does not meet the criteria for those but shows signs of a dissociative disorder that significantly impacts their life and functioning, they can be diagnosed with OSDD; and usually the person will be given a reason as to why they were diagnosed with it, but not something else.

There’s technically 4 “types” of OSDD, but i remember that someone will not be diagnosed with “OSDD-1” or “OSDD-2.”

I feel it also important to mention that, according to the wiki, these are not actually types; they’re just examples of presentations that can be experienced or observed in those diagnosed with OSDD. There could be more and different examples of presentations possible with OSDD.

It is just all OSDD, and a reason will be specified. Taken directly from the wiki, “An example would be specifying "OSDD (dissociative trance)".”

Someone who shows signs of a dissociative disorder but doesn’t mean criteria for the ones above, and isn’t given a reason why, can be diagnosed with Unspecified Dissociative Disorder or UDD.

These guys can also potentially have alters and systems and the like, they just aren’t diagnosed with DID or OSDD either because of a lack of meeting criteria somehow, or more likely, because there’s a lack of sufficient time. Possibly other reasons as well.

Taken from the Wiki, these are the 4 descriptions of 4 example presentations that can be present in the “catch all” diagnosis of OSDD;

“Chronic and recurrent syndromes of mixed dissociative symptoms:

The DSM states, "This category includes identity disturbance associated with less-than-marked discontinuities in sense of self and agency, or alterations of identity or episodes of possession in an individual who reports no dissociative amnesia".

The ICD-11 describes this presentation as "Partial dissociative identity disorder".

(This is the one commonly referred to as OSDD-1/OSDD1, and OSDD-1A and OSDD-1B. Systems and alters, like DID, but not DID because they fail to meet a specific criteria to be diagnosed with DID. OSDD-1A and OSDD-1B are also community terms im sure, someone will not be diagnosed with these letters or terms or numbers.)

Identity disturbance due to prolonged and intense coercive persuasion:

The DSM gives the examples of "brainwashing, thought reform, programming, indoctrination while captive, torture, long-term political imprisonment, recruitment by sects/cults or by terror organizations." People with this presentation, as a result, may experience distressing changes to and/or questioning of their identity.

(This one is commonly called OSDD-2. A very well known but fictional example of this is the Winter Soldier/Bucky Barnes from the MCU and Peeta Mellark from the Hunger Games series, although neither are officially or canonically diagnosed.)

Acute dissociative reactions to stressful events:

This category is used for acute dissociative episodes which may last anywhere from a few hours to weeks, but typically less than a month. The dissociative conditions are characterised by "constriction of consciousness", including "depersonalization; derealization; perceptual disturbances (e.g., time slowing, macropsia); micro-amnesias; transient stupor; and/or alterations in sensory-motor functioning (e.g., analgesia, paralysis)."

(OSDD-3.)

Dissociative Trance:

This category represents a dissociative trance; "an acute narrowing or complete loss of awareness of immediate surroundings that manifests as profound unresponsiveness or insensitivity to environmental stimuli." The DSM specifies that "The dissociative trance is not a normal part of a broadly accepted collective cultural or religious practice".

In the ICD-11, this condition warrants a separate diagnosis of Trance disorder.”

(OSDD-4.)

So all in all, OSDD is simply a “catch all” diagnosis. Those diagnosed with it can have prolonged, childhood trauma—and those diagnosed with the first example presentation of OSDD typically and often do—but experiencing prolonged, childhood trauma is not a requirement or required thing to be diagnosed with OSDD.

“OSDD-2” is often even something that’s diagnosed due to extensive trauma, abuse, and manipulation experienced later in life as teenagers, young adults, adults, or even elderly.

One can experience this type of abuse as a child as well of course, but it’s not childhood specific.

Those who undergo the same type of abuse and trauma that those with “OSDD-2” (aka OSDD (Identity disturbance due to prolonged and intense coercive persuasion)) do, can instead be diagnosed with DID or “OSDD-1” (aka OSDD (Chronic and recurrent syndromes of mixed dissociative symptoms)) if they’re a system (because im pretty sure someone will not be diagnosed with two dissociative disorders, even if their experiences and symptoms match up or overlap with two), and not everyone who undergoes the abuse and trauma that those with OSDD-2 do will be diagnosed with OSDD-2 or any type of dissociative disorder.

Well, im not a professional or expert on anything, but I’ll try to give it a go. Anyone can feel free to correct me if im misinformed and misspoke, or if yall simply disagree.

In terms of in universe, the general consensus, as I see it anyway, is that Killer is not human. Not even exactly like his soul isn’t human or monster, but that his body’s species is also not human.

Which means things like disorders and mental illnesses we have not only in real life, but as humans, does not apply to Killer.

There may be similarities, but they likely wouldn’t be one for one. Another consensus in universe is that, Killer is not said to be diagnosed with anything—he’s just living with and experiencing symptoms of similar possible disorders IRL.

He does not know what exactly is happening to him, he tries to make sense of and explain his experiences to the best of his knowledge and abilities in his own terms and languages.

And due to his own self perceptions, abuse, trauma and self hatred—he often dehumanizes and demonizes himself to others, especially himself when he’s in his other higher Stages.

It’s also long been established that Killer is canonically a character who struggles with a lot of suicidal ideation—not only has he attempted on his own, but when in Stage 1, he has been shown at least twice asking people to kill him (Swap and Color), which reads to me that he is seeking out assisted suicide. Not to mention how he has stated in Stage 1 that he has “accepted death a long time ago.”

Now, a bit more out of universe, I think Rahafwabas was not only really young at the time, but she did not know much English yet. If i recall correctly, she had other people translating her comics from Arabic to English for her.

Which means that not only could information had been lost in translation or mistranslated, it’s possible her language either didn’t have the means and words to explain what she was going for with Killer, or the English language didn’t or meant something else entirely.

In terms of actual disorders or similar irl, or if Killer had physically been a human with a brain, general consensus is that Killer would definitely be diagnosed with a dissociative disorder of some kind. In my opinion, I don’t think a professional would diagnose Killer with DID or P-DID.

I think he’d be diagnosed with either UDD (Unspecified Dissociative Disorder), or OSDD (identity disturbance due to prolonged intense coercive persuasion).

This can also be caused by captivity, thought reform, brainwashing, torture, programming, recruitment by cults/sects/terror organizations, being a POW, etc. This presentation of OSDD is also called OSDD-2.

These guys are not systems, however. There’s not actually much literature or research into this presentation of OSDD or how it effects a person from their experiences and perspectives—only brief descriptions.

Especially from those with OSDD-2 who were programmed, which is an inherently very complex topic even if OSDD-2 is not a complex dissociative disorder.

Now, an argument was made to me by a system recently for why Killer could be a system as well as have symptoms of OSDD-2, but I still believe Killer would not receive a diagnosis of DID, PDID, or OSDD1/1a/1b. Even if he does show and experience symptoms similar to them.

That being said, however, it cannot be denied that Killer already has canonically experienced the type of things listed in OSDD-2.

Intense prolonged coercion, coercion based dissociation, programming (literal reprogramming of his code in the game), torture, captivity, kidnapped/being held hostage, and labor trafficking.

He also shows signs of severe dissociative identity confusion and disturbance—not only does he seem to think he is not Sans anymore, just something that is wearing Sans’ face because Sans “would never kill Papyrus,” and that he said he “wants to be Sans again” in Stage 1 as if he isn’t already or still Sans, but rahafwabas has stated that his soul being like that is one of the reasons why his mind “split.”

It’s a war between two souls, Sans’ and the human Determination soul, but the Determination soul is stronger—even if Sans’ soul often ‘peeks’ out (via that white eyelight in Killer’s right eye socket, which is described as a sign of “the real Sans we know”) or forces itself/is triggered out.

And now he doesn’t know how he should behave, human or monster. He is basically programmed and likely conditioned to behave and think a certain way when in or triggered into a certain Stage—which means dissociation is always present on some level.

However, on the case of Killer being a system or experiencing himself as plural—as more than one in one body—even if not DID, PDID, or OSDD-1 I do think there’s a way to write and portray it without falling into an evil alter trope.

First would be to write other system or plural characters. Have a diverse range of different systems and plurals and don’t leave Killer as the only one.

Second is, understand Killer’s environment and situation.

(Putting a read more here because the rest can potentially be a little too much or potentially triggering.)