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Probably because when they've been hurt, they have never known how to explain it to anyone without being belittled and invalidated, and they've never felt like when they hurt someone else that their apologies and actions were adequate.

It's the autism, probably, in part. It makes navigating the "rules" of peacemaking so difficult, and that's ignoring when the other person isn't willing to hear you out at all.

Kris is shown to have been attached to Susie even before they became friends with them likely on some level enjoying the bullying (them regularly looking excited to be picked up and tossed around and that newest girl scene in the sweepstakes, they are so alike to Noelle in that regard.)

So regularly hearing Catti badmouth Susie when Kris likely also related to her must have done nothing good to their own sense of self-worth and whether Catti means it to them as well.

Catti also specificed that she never made the attempt to apologise to Kris face to face only using apology spells which she only told Kris in response to seeing them help Noelle and Susie get together so Kris is immediately bombarded with guiltriping which … yeah Catti is the master of accidental guilt-triping, didn’t help.

Kris probably assumed that Catti was talking behind their back to some level because of their treatment of Noelle with the more open distan Catti shows to Susie causing them to just … get confused.

she didn't even unwrap the CD he gave her. this has been sticking out to me since i played the chapter. the game didn't have to specify that it was still sealed. if the game had just said there was a ska CD in the middle of all the punk rock then i'd think it was sweet that she had it and there'd be room for interpretation that like, hey maybe she tolerated the ska or even had a soft spot for it because she was attracted to him enough to overcome her distaste for it. but it specifies “still-sealed ska CD” which just feels so weirdly cold and dismissive for something that seems like it's supposed to be flagging "teen romance."

like, it seems ha ha funny at first and if they were clearly Just Friends then maybe it wouldn't be a big deal that she thought his music sucked, but as a couple... ska (assuming ska punk, maybe religious ska, the type asriel was implied to like) is like, happy feel-good music. it's dorky goodboy music. it represents asriel just as much as punk rock represents dess. he's a sensitive sweet normie geek who cried and snitched on kris in confessional for killing yoshi, something even alvin thinks is lame. and i get that we haven't even seen dess and asriel interact yet but surely the game could have given us SOMETHING to clearly suggest that she was actually into him for what he was. if the game had shown us all of dess's performative punkness and then said "hidden deep under the bed, there's a well-worn CD case. it seems to be... religious ska?" then i would be like oh obviously she was infatuated with him, she had a soft spot for his bad music even though it clearly didn't match her persona or tastes otherwise and she was a little embarrassed by it. it would tell me that she was actively attracted to HIM as a dorky normcore goodboy to the point that she was getting out of her comfort zone in order to engage with him. but it's just sealed. it's sterile. zero curiosity or interest.

and we have to keep in mind how important music was to dess especially, how much of her personality and passion was in music as an expression of her values. the game keeps telling us what she's attracted to and passionate about -- intellectual and emotional challenge, rebellion from the status quo, flirting with darkness and danger. if the ska music was intolerable then his whole thing just seems like it should be romantic anathema to her. close friends is one thing but what in the world could have been Sexy about him to her.

and the signs that they were trying to do a couple thing anyway just make me feel bad. every time he came over he had to see that CD still sealed. do you want a really heartbreaking read on this. the other CDs under his bed were described as classical and jazz, in a very general sense pretty standard and safe, and we've seen how dess treated all the more “classical” instruments she had, maybe ones her mom got her in an attempt to push her into a more respectable music career. the religious ska might have been the “edgiest” his taste in music got. he knew she wouldn't like his classical or jazz but maybe she would like ska punk. it's even called “punk.” and she didn't even open it! the coolest he could be was still cringe to her. dude

She literally keeps a drawing of a purple dragon from the porno book under her bed as something more sacred and embarrassing/ to be kept closer to her than Asriel’s stuff.

Kris even points out how weird it was that the Purple Dragon wasn’t in TV World which … major flags honestly given that the first thing Tenna talks about Dess is how she liked to watched reptile women in bikinis preform punk rock.

Girlie was bisexual at the very least, she was into reptile girls like Noelle is. Heck it even fits with how Susie is viewed by Kris and Noelle, given that the ‘Alligators in Bikini’ band inspired Dess’s music and her preferences. Dess likely felt forced to be with Asriel even if she did like him to some extent due to him being a popular kid, child of her father’s bestie/situationship and someone she was familiar with the most. Basically a safe candidate in that small town who did like her back, given that she likely was an outcast or at least shunned for her other sides by the rest of the town. With the Title of Flower Queeb likely being another slap in the face.

During the Ralsei and Orange Break scene, Susie told Ralsei off screen to apologise to Orange about what happened leading to the apology there.

Instead you get genuinely asinine takes such as “Oh Spade King is meant to refer to Asgore”/ “Spade King is meant to reference Dess/Carol’s abuse of Dess - only seen this once btw) while Asgore is neglectful he has never physically hurt his child and the whole line of Spade King’s motivations fall flat when you do place it on Asgore because what happened to Spade King is what happened to Susie metaphorically. Asgore is very much fixated on recreating his old life and getting back with his wife. Spade King refuses to acknowledge any potential Spade Queen (I wonder if it is meant to be read as a widower situation since Toby does have the Spade Queen reference at hand) and wants to burn this world down for the Knight’s grand design. They are foils and thus also highlight how Susie is a foil to Asgore and Kris.

This was Chapter 1 btw, Chapters 3+4+5 don’t hold back the punches about how bad Susie has it with the madatory scenes and why she has latched on so hard to her friends and this new normal. She has no allegiance or care for the past because she lacks on that could be rose tinted unlike the other characters in Hometown, that is part of the reason for why she can be a source of growth and change for Kris, Noelle and Ralsei (Its especially mutual with Ralsei).

But I fear it is also because of the whole false narrative stuff, a lot of fans get caught in it (the Kris Dremurr & Soul dynamic and the personhood of Darkners especially). Susie puts up fronts to help her cope, in Chapter 1 that was the violet tormentor, in Chapter 2 + 3 it was the naive hero, in chapter 4, it was the Axe of Justice/ Girl with Hope Crossed on her heart, in Chapter 5, its the lover and the dark vine. But these are fronts to help her and her friends because she realises that they need her to be their pillar.

I've said this before, but I want to clarify what I exactly mean by it.

When I say I think that "Carol went through something analogous to the Weird Route," I don't mean she went through literally the same experience Noelle did. (i.e. being pressured to kills dozens and her friend, having a thorn ring forcefully put on her, whatever happened at the lake, any of the Dark World stuff, any of the meta stuff, ect) I mean that, in her adolescence, she went through a similarly traumatic experience – likely at the hands of an abuser – that made her into the person she is today (likely with the same control-centric mindset Noelle expresses in Chapter 5's Weird Route).

Although (as I've said before), under Cycle Theory, she could've literally went through the same experience (maybe not exactly the same – I doubt anything like the lake scene happened with her – but with a lot of the same concepts) if she was a participant in a previous iteration.

I also hope that people also look into Spade King, Tenna, Queen and Flowery for this cause they also lean into this hard even if Queen and Flowery do come off as aloof to it. (Queen was likely facing trauma so damn hard when the internet went down especially since she likely knew what happened to King and Tenna which is why she is less controlling in Castletown, not only was she told off about the harm she did but she has a stable place where she can be herself).

Noelle not being there at the end makes sense to me. For all the “Is Noelle the Second girl”, nonsense. The three heroes at the end panel show Kris, Susie and Ralsei clearly from how they have all been presented. With I feel Noelle potentially being a secret ally in a ‘true’ ending if such a thing exist thus both link her Story nicely to the end like how the three main characters are linked to the ending.

Also I 100% see Noelle murking Kris at the end to take their soul. To kill the final big bad, to freeze the world in a softlock and take Kris’s very being to become stronger via soul fusion.

With said older sister repeating the same behaviour onto Susie as a result of her own pain and what was ingrained into her by the abuser/s in both their lives (also strengthen Susie’s stand against Spade King as her choosing to look the generational cycle of abuse in the face and choose to be better than that, to stop the pain and protect her loved ones).

With her own neglect being a result of being raised by an impoverished and mentally unstable young woman who is either trying to be there (I see this being the case given Asgore and how Carol likely will be handled seriously, she did some messed up stuff to Noelle, Dess and Kris), but getting consumed by her own anger and pain/toxic mentality when Susie refuses to act how she wanted or someone who has burnt out, given up on giving a damn most of the time and only caring when it becomes a her problem.

With her being the main collaborator with the Knight outside of Kris due to their shared desire to create a new world from the remains of the world that has hurt them both. Helping to carry Dess and their targets to and from the shelter. And forming an ‘evil’ Fun gang with the Roaring Knight (foil to Kris mainly) and ERAM (likely a foil to Ralsei given what we see of them) and her being a foil to Susie, with her being set up since Chapter 1 via Spade King and his own revelations that we gleam throughout the chapter + on replays as we likely are gonna to replay the game for the multiple routes.

My main evidence for this is honestly the How to Draw your Dragon poster since Dess is hinted at being into reptile girls in Chapter 3 (via Tenna) + 4 (via the purple dragon drawing under her bed which mirrors the Dess letter in Asriel’s drawer). While Susie is treated as the future or the promise of a hopeful one by both the narrative and by Kris & Noelle. So Dess being fixated a purple dragoness in the form of Susie’s own sister would make sense there. Plus in Chapter 5, Kris puts emphasis on the book by wondering why it didn’t become a darkner implying something there about the book and how it might be more linked to Dess/someone else outside of Kris.

Plus it also allows for something interesting with Noelle and Susie given Susie’s avoidance of her home (this also ironically enough make Susie’s sister less of a bad guardian cause she knows where Susie is half of the time) and Noelle being Noelle and how they both contrast each other and their respective lives while hammering in the aspect of Noelle and Kris’s complex feelings about their older siblings via Susie and her own.

Plus ngl, I would prefer that fight over say Carol Knight given how Carol is repeatedly hinted to be in the dark on the matter in someway (plus her collaborating with Asgore as already established, Asgore being a target almost certainly disqualifies her as being the knight or an aid to the knight with the Knight likely being late due to Carol’s investigation in the Bunker as she could have kidnapped him anytime she wanted, same with Undyne).

But fr, it really goes to show how awful he is. He literally stalks Toriel and while he does learn his lesson about that by having it done to him. Does he ever apologise for how he treated Kris in attempting to get Toriel back? No.

you remember in chapter 4? when the church was trashed and Susie wrote Gerson's letter for him and left it on Alvin's desk? and people were saying "oh Alvin's going to think Susie's mocking him with his dead fathers name oh the town will hate Susie oh the town will think she robbed the church"?

and then chapter 5 rolled around and nobody hated Susie? and Alvin found the strength to keep writing? and he forgave the mess and the fact that some items were missing? and everybody understood this was not an act of malice?

He also linked it to the Angel after seeing the letter cause who else could do it to him?

Plus how she is talked about by her fellow classmates … genuinely awful what Catti, Jockington, Snowy and MK do talk about her, not vile but still not nice.

But the WR situation I feel would be different because Carol caught her in the Manor the day prior while Noelle had a bleeding finger (from us but she doesn’t know this).

Then the next day, Susie and Noelle went to the festival together while Kris was no show after 2 days of the two being stuck by the hip even at the Church.

She then comes in and says that Kris and Noelle drowned in the lake together.

What would Carol believe there? That Noelle and Kris went into the lake willing together or that Susie drowned them? So what if the other town members don’t agree, she is the mayor and her youngest just died/disappeared, her husband just collapsed and had to be rehospitalised (seriously though it feels so weird about that stuff cause what is going on there, it couldn’t have been that bad otherwise why didn’t she at least have someone helping him even if he didn’t want that. Chapter 4 already set up that Rudy and her were disagreeinf about giving Noelle spare keys to the manor to prevent her from being locked outside and how Carol’s paranoia was hurting Noelle so ..)

Am I saying that Susie is getting kicked out of town? No. Am I saying that her and her guardian would be in some seriouslt trouble? Yes.

Guess who was FUCKING right. Look what she did.

Lemme lay this out for yall.

Jevil is hard and obscure to beat violently, but if you do he tells you about Queen from chapter two.

Spamton’s dialogue is strange to parse and very cryptic, as well as having a ton of additional material in a freaking arg, but he very much foreshadows Mike and Tenna from chapter three.

The Roaring Knight is literally the main villain of chapter four, and Eram talks about the weird route which comes to a bit of a head in chapter four as well.

Now we have Pink talking about Image Friend being a scary ass pack of evil violent cats who wanna come eat your eggs (or well protein but you need the chapter five egg in order to get the scene and Lancer has already talked about the nutritional value of eggs so it checks out)

So obviously Image Friend is the secret boss of chapter six and we need to get all the eggs to lure them into attacking us.

That or they’re the main boss and by having all the eggs we make them way harder that’d be funny

To elaborate even more, Friend is really properly seemingly an Easter Egg in all of its appearances outside of chapter three (which uh cats have 9 lives 3^2 is 9 idfk) and Friend also has always been a force that is OPPOSED to the prophecy, which eggs are considered an “issue” for proper completion of a chapter.

The fact that this scene got dropped on the fandom right when we were settling into pirate faster and butcher of hometown shit….

I already thought this chapter had enough I’ve already made a theory video for the first time in my whole life because of this chapter and I have more in the oven and then they drop THIS SHIT on us.

My belief for FRIENDs being linked to Susie is how FRIEND has been treated in the actual game. In the first chapter, it is a no show but this is also the first adventure where Susie spends most of her time away from the gang with Kris not being alone period in this chapter while Susie also isn’t their friend. Only on Chapter 2 after Susie has befriended Kris and leaves with Ralsei do we start seeing Pink and Yellow. Prior to Chapter 5, FRIENDs only appeared when Kris was alone and unless its via the device that ERAM used for the mantle quest, were passive if not helpful to Kris only to be checked on by Susie in both chapter 2 & 3. And while FRIEND does hurt Susie and Ralsei in Chapter 5, its only Kris who is physically hurt while Susie and Ralsei are hurt via Kris.

The mew mew doll itself was given by Alphys to Asgore who mind you, Mistook Susie for a cat and lives in the same apartment as her. Its likely that if Mew Mew was in the apartment, the owner is one of those people so Susie’s family, Alphys and Snowy’s family.

This also explains why Jockington and Catti speak the way they do about Susie as well especially given that Catti tried to summon a demon with Kris before. Susie is followed by a FRIEND and Catti and sense it and it unnerves her.

Not to mention that the clearest appearance of a FRIEND is in the cutscene that showcased Susie’s room which is certainly an interesting choice especially with the green and purple serpent and green and purple eyes that almost appear like titan eyes (minus the line down the middle). All of this linked to pure darkness.

Susie wanting every day to be the same? Noelle can give her that.

Noelle wanting things to change? Susie is giving her that.

In every new interaction, Noelle gives to Susie that normalcy and regularity she needs emotionally. Kris is Susie’s first and best friend and they can be crazy together. But with Noelle, Susie is experiencing a teenage crush and more about regular life and things. Susie and Kris are more about having adventures together, and Noelle and Susie have been more about doing random normal shit. Watching those videos, eating ice cream… stuff that they could keep doing together.

In their interactions so far, Susie is able to transform Noelle’s life and reality without her having to abandon it.

That guitar that has always been there but can’t be touched? Susie plays a song for her.

That lake that is associated with something nostalgic? Susie comes in there, and gives it a totally new meaning.

Susie loves scaring her, surprising her…

Susie just by being herself, gives Noelle those things she craves and needs to wake up from her dissociation.

I still wonder what the symbolism between the pink and gold is, since those are also friend colors and are the colors of this chapter that put Noelle and Susie together 👀.

I wonder what that means.

But the fans that are thinking how Noelle and Susie will break up after they just got together are annoying…. 👉🏻👈🏻

Pink and Yellow are a very interesting combo in both UT and DR, in both games Yellow is the main spare colour while Pink is an optional secret colour to the mercy/Spare system. Which works well with both Susie and Noelle’s stories no? Especially in chapter 1 &2.

Yellow is also linked to the past given how all the flashbacks in both games use faded yellow as a signifier of their being flashbacks and Noelle being figuratively frozen in the past (with Susie being the warmth that thaws that ice around her). Noelle is that painful past to Kris which is why they isolate so much from her despite their care for her (plus the entire town’s misogyny that Noelle must be a damsel in distress who needs to be protected and never allowed to grow that even Rudy and Dess participant in).

Pink on the other hand is linked to the Future via Ralsei and Susie both of whom are treated as the present and promise of a tomorrow in Kris’s life. (Ralsei also is the main person who gave Susie and Kris hope for a tomorrow and that they matter since Chapter 1 which is why I am sad whenever Ralsei gets snubbed from these discussions especially due to their parallels to Noelle - especially WR Noelle).

This is also made even more explicit in Pink and Spamton Neo. While Spamton is linked to Pink & Yellow and Green & purple (two very important colour duos linked to freedom in this game since Chapter 1 via Seam and Jevil).

Pink represents the hopefule future that Kris can achieve via communication and cooperation with the soul that both are connected and should be respected by the other in order for a better future for both.

Spamton on the other hand, took over the Neo suit and override whatever life it might have had left in that darkness literally overwriting its design with his own while Pink didn’t. Spamton is linked to the harm that will follow due to both Soul and Kris’s refusal to work together the need to dominate and strip the other of self as it will only lead to their combined death.

Pink is willing to make sacrifices for Mew and vice versa, Spamton doesn’t.

Flowery also connects to this being the main counterpart to Pink (like how the other 6 flowers have their own counterpart who are foils to them in each other). Where Pink is ignorant of the Dark Worlds, Flowery has advanced knowledge of them, where she is genuine, Flowery lies and fakes what he has to appear stronger. Pink and Mew Mew show gender expression via their own experiences via Flowery forces Ralsei to confront that part of them.

Pink is content in the dark world with what she has, Flowery wants to chase after Asgore’s approval and love in a vain want to help him that keeps hurting everyone because of Asgore’s own fixation on the past.

There is a reason why Gerson calls this the Field of Pink and Gold after all. Its both reflective of Susie & Noelle, Ralsei & Flowery and Pink & Flowery.

Now as for how I view a break up between Noelle and Susie, it honestly has to do with Susie’s own ideas of love and its transactional nature + Noelle’s own want to break free that she will eventually not be satisfied with Susie as seen in the WR when she finds via a very traumatising way, something she finds more interesting, something she thinks others haven’t found out yet and chases it to the point of clipping through the world and drowning herself with an old friend of hers in a mutually destructive friendship -> something else.

Afterall, the Girl Panel in Japanese says this, “The Girl, my daughter, will find the true meaning of love”.

Which I feel is more emblematic of Susie’s story in the Normal route and Noelle’s in the WR. Especially given how the prophecy forces an interpretation of Susie being passive to it when her best trait was her activeness in the story. Its why I do find the element of Suselle being predestined as interesting and definitely something that will be deconstructed in the later chapters.

I do want to make myself clear though, I think that at the end of the day, what matters isn’t thar Susie and Noelle are together but that they can still positively impact each others lives, this is the same view I share about Krusie as well. With Ralsei and Susie bond being a hint and Susie’s own complicated feelings that to me feel very Aro-ace spec as an asexual myself.

Whether it be besties, SOs (especially if Transmasc Noelle is an intended reading of Noelle for multiple reasons), or just friends. They matter to each other and that is what matters I feel at the end of the day, to me its more important than Susie and Noelle being together. Its more important that Kris’s potential confession to Susie, its more important than that damn prophecy to me. How Susie manages her relationships without leaving anyone behind because she is trying and is failing in some degree despite her efforts in game, how she handles these new connections she is willing to die for and the potential ramifications to an old and rotten one in her abusive guardian (if Toby and Co have the balls to show her in her messy glory :3c, I feel this is certain given King’s existence in the story) and how she handles it with the looming dread of the end.

They both need to reevaluate what they want and what they show each other. Susie needs to tackle her transactional view of love, she needs to understand her own value as herself to stop trying to change herself for another because she is herself and that is what matters. While Noelle needs to learn to better empathise with others and use those skills to change her life in a positive way, to potentially give peace to herself and her father, to handle her friendships with Berdly and Catti, to handle her mother and to talk with Kris and actually rekindle that friendship in a new and healthier way or to separate on good terms at least.

I 100% agree about the colors and them being opposite: Pink is clearly freedom and being open to change. Yellow is the opposite, is being caged and not being open to change. In Noelle’s case is also being tied to the past.

However, my conclusion about that is the opposite. People say this is evidence that they are non-compatible but I think this is not where the game is going.

Susie is detaching Noelle from that unhealthy longing of the past.

By grabbing Dess’s guitar and creating new memories with it Susie is taking out Noelle of that stasis of the past.

By hanging out with her at the lake, so, the lake won’t be tied to Dess and the tragedy anymore, but to new beginnings.

People say that Noelle will get bored of Susie, but I see it differently… maybe Susie is what Noelle needs to get rid of that mindset, because that is not a healthy way to relate to people to begin with.

Of course, these different themes are going to clash eventually when they are in the darkworlds and Noelle realizes all what is happening, and I expect conflict and messiness.

Ralsei and Noelle will also be a very interesting duo to meet cause they are very similar. Noelle wants to bring the past back; Ralsei wants to ensure the prophecy is on track. Kris wants to fulfill an old promise no matter the cost.

All of them have fixated mindsets and different perspectives of the main theme of the game.

About the prophecy thing I don’t have a solid opinion formed tbh 🤷🏻‍♀️. Cause the prophecy is really vague and all it says is love finds its way to the girl.

If we believe that Susie is the one writing the new story, and breaking the prophecy, then, shouldn’t be all what is happening already different?

She is the one that usually has the ideas that move the plot forward. In the darkworlds she is already changing things all the time; like when que started to have acts on her own.

Maybe Susie has been re-writing the story this entire time and she is still doing it so. However, in this draft how much is left from the original story?? We don’t know.

Also…. The prophecy in the church is already kinda messed up cause Noelle appears as the first girl, and the last girl is Susie; but what happened was the opposite.Do I know what any of this means??? NOPE.

Finally… I am totally okay with people having other opinions if those opinions aren’t motivated by shipping reasons.

If you have lore and fundamented reasons to believe it, even if I don’t agree I am 100% cool with it.

Oh! I almost forgot.

I also agree that if the story ends with Suselle as endgame, I will be happy as long as it gets its proper dues. But that I hope the other characters especially Ralsei don’t get snubbed.

I would caution against Susie being the main force rewriting the story because for all the jokes about her being a shonen protag, we see with Flowery why that is a flawed mindset to have. It seems to be more of a team effort between Ralsei, Kris and Susie for all intent and purposes :3.

I do have to agree on Noelle, she gets so much growth through Suselle and even in the Weird Route, she cares about Susie and that care causes her to change for the better in both routes I would argue.

I also would like to advocate for Ralsei here as well since it is mainly Ralsei who I feel takes much of the dynamic of Suselle out of it for me.

Ralsei is the first one who wants to change fate, his method meant changing their mindsets and seeking a more peaceful resolution to the story, one that had been challenged since Spade King and highlights his naivety but also care. Ralsei is afraid of the Unknown because they were raised to fulfil a binding fate, thus anything outside of it is the unknown (why I also caution against Noelle being Second Girl/ the last girl outside the Weird Route as well since she seems to be a secondary character in the prophecy someone pushed into the role of the love interest to the Second Hero, which repeats how Noelle has been treated her entire life, secondary to everyone, a damsel who must be protected but never allowed to become herself, forced to be a Noelle.) He is also the one who inspired Susie and Kris to become heroes and change Fate even if he didn’t specify the latter until he was forced to (due to his feeling that he should carry the burden of knowledge alone, which leads to harm for the FUN gang and colours Ralsei’s interactions with others) in Chapter 4. He also provides for Susie and Kris in a way that while not physically sustaining is emotionally satisfying and needed for these two neglected teens.

Ralsei mainly takes what Noelle can provide for Susie in Suselle, the main difference I suppose is that Noelle can buy real food for Susie, which is shown in Chapter 5. But does she actually impact Susie enough to change? She definitely helps to recontextualise Susie’s own narrative into the paragon hero but that was already something Ralsei was doing and did more frequently and pointedly, Ralsei also holds Susie accountable in a way that Noelle doesn’t want to because she doesn’t want to lose Susie, while Susie can be firmer with Ralsei during their own growth as well, because they have both seen that ugly side to each other and still accept each other. While Susie and Noelle haven’t (and I kinda hope they do, I hope it gets messy).

My issue with Suselle is that by the nature of how little time Noelle gets, all the growth in Suselle is directed at her or if not then backstory is. Which is frustrating cause Susie’s own story is just as important I would argue especially with what the game is setting up with Dess with the main issue is how secretive it is (fr, the game wants us to think about Susie’s homelife and it likely will be examined like how the game used Kris’s to examine their character and struggle and how Noelle’s family issues are the core tension of the villian plot it seems, given the red herring baiting of Carol and weirdly suspicious lines Rudy gets as well.

Which sucks online cause people keep forgetting the other interesting aspects of the game to the point that when the ARG points this out, fans just latches onto that line without second thought and it is affecting Noelle’s character.

It is also why I kinda dislike how Carol and Rudy were handled in Chapter 5, that tension that should have been there about Carol just is forgotten, handled offscreen and told to us while she spends the whole time in the bunker which … interesting choice game, its not like Toriel got an amazing scene this chapter or anything … its not like the game isn’t vague posting Susie’s family and the incident that caused Asgore to lose his job.

And that is mainly because I feel that it cheapens Noelle’s defiance. It goes feel nature but it also feels a bit toothless especially with how Noelle is written out of the rest of the chapter …

Heck Susie genuinely has more introspection about her bullying and how she was bullied growing up than she does show growth with Noelle (I would argue that her immediate want to reciprocate Noelle’s affection is cute but also not exactly character development because that has been how she always acts after she opens up).

Heck I would argue that my favourite scene for Suselle in this chapter is the bread scene where Noelle buys a treat for Susie … because it shows more of that growth on Noelle’s part to become more open to others and more empathetic as a result via her identifying her and Susie’s difference in wealth and wanting to help and shows Susie’s own want to not burden someone which I really love to see. Not saying that the lake scene isn’t impactful, it is genuinely one of the best bits of introspection on Noelle in this chapter in both Routes. But for Susie, … I feel it doesn’t do much than already fuel that love for Noelle via a direct confession on Noelle’s part/maybe Susie realising that Noelle has the same issue with suicidal ideation that she also has but again that is more implied which while good is also not as much of a showcase of growth on either side. The phone that followed for Noelle is but it already is foreshadowed by her confrontation with Queen (and better done there honestly) so it is very much an application of her growth in chapter 2.

Again, I am excited to see where they go but I do hope those aspects do get addressed especially with actual dark world Noelle shenanigans again.

Personally I believe that we will be seeing Susie’s homelife explored via a short dark world prior to a hospital one to get Noelle used to the rest of the team in a more action driven way rather than more talk focused and to actually get her to engage especially in a dark world where Susie can’t always be there while also expanding on that growth in Chapter 5 that she showed. Followed by her applying what she learnt in Chapter 2 and Chapter 6’s first dark world to try to save her dad leading to her becoming more isolated from the party as a result to really hammer in that focus in how Suselle affects both sides and their own issues as well as how it affects the Fun gang’s dynamics :3, plus what better way to really sell the tone than to show both these girls horrible homelives and how they try to move past them after Chapter 3 + 5’s focus on Kris and their family as the main aspect of those respective dark worlds.

Anyhow Prophecy stuff, the phase, “Love finds its way to the girl” is completely different in the Japanese translation of the text, “the girl, my daughter, will find the true meaning of love”. This implies that whoever did write/ wanted to prophecy written down, whether this would be the Angel, God (Toby get it) or someone else, the Prophecy considers the Second Hero to be its daughter. Claims her as its own, this due to the word ‘musume’ which when used by itself in the context given in the Second Hero, at Last the Girl and the Love panels means young woman who I consider to be my daughter/my daughter who is a young woman.

This is why I doubt that the Prophecy is referring to Noelle, the Prophecy links itself doesn’t show any line that could be linked to Noelle but one of the darkner npcs who say lines of the prophecy do mention someone who resembles Noelle but under a different girl title.

The best piece of evidence I would say for Noelle as Second Hero in the Japanese version is that Musume especially in the multiple weirded out Girl Panels are closer to the head and might if you squint resemble antlers but I view this as something that will get misinterpreted by others especially Carol if she is knowledgeable about the Prophecy as referring to Noelle when the Panel is referring to Susie and her own family. The English version supports Noelle more due to its increased vagueness due to Toby being able to write with more ambiguity in the English text and struggling more in the Japanese text as seen with Sans and Papyrus in Undertale who while brothers, it’s ambiguous who is the older and younger for most of the story but in the Japanese text its instantly apparent due to Japanese being more direct.

My own theory is that the Second Hero panel should read like

“At last, was the girl,

At last, was the Girl.

Second Hero,

The Girl with hope crossed on her heart”

And that it is referring to the order of the heroes joining the party while the first, second and third are describing the position in the party that they will be in once they have united.

With the Second Hero panel being vague as it is because it is either trying to convey its view of Susie through rigid lens/ it is combining her with her older sister since they both are considered to be the daughters of the prophecy/the Angel.

While Noelle becomes the Angel by subverting and breaking faith via the Weird Route, using her own powers with the help of Kris to break the game utterly and place herself as the Angel.

While in the Normal Route (potentially true ending :3), she is able to grow through her bonds with Susie, Kris and Ralsei and help them overcome the final tragedy.

With not one person being the key but all four working together. (Maybe Berdly as well but he has been sidelined a lot so unless he is handled well in Chapter 6 I will be big doubts on that).

Absolute crack theory I know, but I mainly base this idea on how the Bible which is definitely an inspiration for the prophecy is treated as the literal word of god by the faithful as in that god inspired people to write down his words, which makes sense with the divine nature of the prophecy.

But basically, yes I am calling Susie a Jesus parallel :3.

Susie wanting every day to be the same? Noelle can give her that.

Noelle wanting things to change? Susie is giving her that.

In every new interaction, Noelle gives to Susie that normalcy and regularity she needs emotionally. Kris is Susie’s first and best friend and they can be crazy together. But with Noelle, Susie is experiencing a teenage crush and more about regular life and things. Susie and Kris are more about having adventures together, and Noelle and Susie have been more about doing random normal shit. Watching those videos, eating ice cream… stuff that they could keep doing together.

In their interactions so far, Susie is able to transform Noelle’s life and reality without her having to abandon it.

That guitar that has always been there but can’t be touched? Susie plays a song for her.

That lake that is associated with something nostalgic? Susie comes in there, and gives it a totally new meaning.

Susie loves scaring her, surprising her…

Susie just by being herself, gives Noelle those things she craves and needs to wake up from her dissociation.

I still wonder what the symbolism between the pink and gold is, since those are also friend colors and are the colors of this chapter that put Noelle and Susie together 👀.

I wonder what that means.

But the fans that are thinking how Noelle and Susie will break up after they just got together are annoying…. 👉🏻👈🏻

Pink and Yellow are a very interesting combo in both UT and DR, in both games Yellow is the main spare colour while Pink is an optional secret colour to the mercy/Spare system. Which works well with both Susie and Noelle’s stories no? Especially in chapter 1 &2.

Yellow is also linked to the past given how all the flashbacks in both games use faded yellow as a signifier of their being flashbacks and Noelle being figuratively frozen in the past (with Susie being the warmth that thaws that ice around her). Noelle is that painful past to Kris which is why they isolate so much from her despite their care for her (plus the entire town’s misogyny that Noelle must be a damsel in distress who needs to be protected and never allowed to grow that even Rudy and Dess participant in).

Pink on the other hand is linked to the Future via Ralsei and Susie both of whom are treated as the present and promise of a tomorrow in Kris’s life. (Ralsei also is the main person who gave Susie and Kris hope for a tomorrow and that they matter since Chapter 1 which is why I am sad whenever Ralsei gets snubbed from these discussions especially due to their parallels to Noelle - especially WR Noelle).

This is also made even more explicit in Pink and Spamton Neo. While Spamton is linked to Pink & Yellow and Green & purple (two very important colour duos linked to freedom in this game since Chapter 1 via Seam and Jevil).

Pink represents the hopefule future that Kris can achieve via communication and cooperation with the soul that both are connected and should be respected by the other in order for a better future for both.

Spamton on the other hand, took over the Neo suit and override whatever life it might have had left in that darkness literally overwriting its design with his own while Pink didn’t. Spamton is linked to the harm that will follow due to both Soul and Kris’s refusal to work together the need to dominate and strip the other of self as it will only lead to their combined death.

Pink is willing to make sacrifices for Mew and vice versa, Spamton doesn’t.

Flowery also connects to this being the main counterpart to Pink (like how the other 6 flowers have their own counterpart who are foils to them in each other). Where Pink is ignorant of the Dark Worlds, Flowery has advanced knowledge of them, where she is genuine, Flowery lies and fakes what he has to appear stronger. Pink and Mew Mew show gender expression via their own experiences via Flowery forces Ralsei to confront that part of them.

Pink is content in the dark world with what she has, Flowery wants to chase after Asgore’s approval and love in a vain want to help him that keeps hurting everyone because of Asgore’s own fixation on the past.

There is a reason why Gerson calls this the Field of Pink and Gold after all. Its both reflective of Susie & Noelle, Ralsei & Flowery and Pink & Flowery.

Now as for how I view a break up between Noelle and Susie, it honestly has to do with Susie’s own ideas of love and its transactional nature + Noelle’s own want to break free that she will eventually not be satisfied with Susie as seen in the WR when she finds via a very traumatising way, something she finds more interesting, something she thinks others haven’t found out yet and chases it to the point of clipping through the world and drowning herself with an old friend of hers in a mutually destructive friendship -> something else.

Afterall, the Girl Panel in Japanese says this, “The Girl, my daughter, will find the true meaning of love”.

Which I feel is more emblematic of Susie’s story in the Normal route and Noelle’s in the WR. Especially given how the prophecy forces an interpretation of Susie being passive to it when her best trait was her activeness in the story. Its why I do find the element of Suselle being predestined as interesting and definitely something that will be deconstructed in the later chapters.

I do want to make myself clear though, I think that at the end of the day, what matters isn’t thar Susie and Noelle are together but that they can still positively impact each others lives, this is the same view I share about Krusie as well. With Ralsei and Susie bond being a hint and Susie’s own complicated feelings that to me feel very Aro-ace spec as an asexual myself.

Whether it be besties, SOs (especially if Transmasc Noelle is an intended reading of Noelle for multiple reasons), or just friends. They matter to each other and that is what matters I feel at the end of the day, to me its more important than Susie and Noelle being together. Its more important that Kris’s potential confession to Susie, its more important than that damn prophecy to me. How Susie manages her relationships without leaving anyone behind because she is trying and is failing in some degree despite her efforts in game, how she handles these new connections she is willing to die for and the potential ramifications to an old and rotten one in her abusive guardian (if Toby and Co have the balls to show her in her messy glory :3c, I feel this is certain given King’s existence in the story) and how she handles it with the looming dread of the end.

They both need to reevaluate what they want and what they show each other. Susie needs to tackle her transactional view of love, she needs to understand her own value as herself to stop trying to change herself for another because she is herself and that is what matters. While Noelle needs to learn to better empathise with others and use those skills to change her life in a positive way, to potentially give peace to herself and her father, to handle her friendships with Berdly and Catti, to handle her mother and to talk with Kris and actually rekindle that friendship in a new and healthier way or to separate on good terms at least.

actually ☝️ orientalism is NOT about lumping all asian cultures together, it's specifically about the manufactured conceptualization of asia as an "other" in relation to the west. as palestinian-american writer edward saïd says in the book where he coined the term, "Orientalism can be discussed and analyzed as the corporate institution for dealing with the Orient — dealing with it by making statements about it, authorizing views of it, describing it, by teaching it, settling it, ruling over it: in short, Orientalism as a Western style for dominating, restructuring, and having authority over the Orient" (3).

She is likely even based on Japanese Dragons for her design given her links to cats which is a very Eastern Dragon thing (Dragon vs Lion, Cats opposing Serpents in Taoist and Japanese myths).