The Dark Side Has Cookies

And I’m not just speaking from a Loki fan’s POV (though it’s mostly from that side), but the way Marvel movies handled every aspect of storytelling, all of their characters were finely written and fleshed out, even the seemingly minor side characters (Agent Coulson, anyone?). The plot was interesting and not too convoluted (*side eyes IW and Endgame*), they made room for both serious drama and witty, intelligent humor (which then died completely with Ragnarok). Everyone had someone they could root for, which brings me around to being a Loki fan. 

When Loki was introduced, and in the following years and movies after, he became an idol for anyone who has been shit on repeatedly by society just for being who they are, and who then refused to take it anymore and began to punch back. 

I mean there’s a reason why the vast majority of Loki fans belong to the LGBTQA+ community, as well as being neurodivergent in some way. And the reason that Loki’s story touched us particularly instead of any other character, was because: 

A. We got to see his fall from grace, and we recognized it as something many of us have gone through in the past. We recognize the little pushes and steps that eventually leads someone down a self-destructive and dark path. And the only reason many of us aren’t still down that path is because we have resources and support systems that, unfortunately, Loki didn’t have access too. But that isolation in and of itself was also extremely relatable, because it’s something we all experienced before we found people who helped us back into the light.  

B. Loki’s struggles and feelings of betrayal and ostricization actually brought out the darker aspects of what that can do to a person. We live in this fucked up society that expects people who are abused and bullied and marginalized to remain Good and Kind and Pure, when in reality (and I am speaking from experience) when you are constantly being victimized and targeted, often for reasons you don’t entirely understand, that causes you to lash out. It causes you to become angry, even violent (even if you’re only daydreaming about causing harm to people). People will back you into a corner and then act surprised when you bite back at them. And then once you do all of that, once you start fighting back, society suddenly decides that you are a Villain/Criminal, and that you deserve the punishment you give. But they don’t even think about punishing the people who made you that way. 

So yeah. The fact that we were actually getting to explore what causes so many villains to become villains, and why so many marginalized people identify with villains, was exciting. It was exciting for me, at least, who saw the same kind of anger I harbored towards the world in Loki. 

We were finally going to get our story told but then…. 

Then…. 

Then Infinity War happened. And Gagnarok. And Endgame…. 

And we found ourselves, once again, pushed into the shadows. 

All of the heroes that comply to what society dictates is a hero get their moment in the sun, and we are once again told that all we’ll ever be are just villains and criminals, unworthy (I fucking hate that word) of redemption or love or a chance to prove ourselves. 

Marvel was supposed to be different. Marvel was supposed to be the thing that gave every single person a chance in the spotlight. But Marvel just… let us down. 

Loki from behind.

Short answer: that's why half of the fandom hates you.

Long answer: nothing easier than to ruin and destroy things. It takes skill to actually build and create something and even more to execute someone else's vision the way it was intended to be or bring to life characters that are alreday rooted in fiction and people's imagination. You have to be able to understand it and see what is good about it and why people have loved it and related to it and then carry it on in respectful and interesting way that both preserves what came before and ads some originality to it. And for that you have to know to put your ego aside and acknowledge other people and their opinions and feelings which is something you are utterly unable to do.

Yes, Marvel changed certain things but it wasn't disrespectful. Different, yes. But that's a expected when going from mythology to comics to movies. Were some things a lot different? Definitely (Heimdall for example), but it was still respectful and the movies were good (without all the extra crap that went along with TR)

When I first watched Thor 1 and 2, it made me happy to see the Gods I worship, my ancestors Gods, on the big screen. It was a good experience, and I had looked forward to seeing Hel in the MCU because I had the same hopes for her as I did with Loki. And to see that one of my favourite actors was going to be her? That made me extremely proud.

But, you all know how that turned out.

So if you were ever curious as to the other reason why I hate him, here you go.

It seems that one of the problems with Loki is that he isn’t “a perfect victim”. He didn’t quietly succumb to his fate, neatly suffering in silence while treated unfairly, remaining kind and forgiving when taunted by others. 

Instead, he snapped and went “no more Mr. Nice Guy”. He decided to do exactly what he’d seen others do and get away with and why shouldn’t he? “Fuck them, I’ll carve out a space for myself with blood, sweat, and tears and I’ll show them exactly who they’re dealing with.”

This is where sympathy ends for some people.

They can only care about a character who stoically accepts his role as a victim, not someone who turns the game around and becomes a predator himself. To them, he can only be redeemed if he returns to the fold and once again follows the rules. He can only be loved if he humiliates himself and expresses his feelings in a way that doesn’t inconvenience others.

As long as he refuses, such people will deny his pain and the legitimacy of his anger, retcon his history and claim that he’s throughout evil.

You guys saw Avengers right?” Hiddleston joked to the cheering crowd. “So he’s still that guy. And just about the last thing that happened to him was he got Hulk-smashed. So there’s a lot of psychological evolution that is still yet to happen. Kevin [Feige] has generally shown me what his plans are. I can’t tell you any of them, but it is one of the most exciting creative opportunities I think I’ve ever come across. This is new territory, a new world, new challenges, and I cannot wait to get started.”

Hiddleston was joined onstage by Feige during the panel and they both emphasized that the Loki in the streaming series is not the Loki who grew and changed for the better and who ultimately sacrificed his own life in a heroic move to try to stop Thanos in Thor: Ragnarok. This is still an Avengers-era Loki, aka the manipulative, selfish and evil villain.

Loki, set to begin streaming in spring of 2021, will also answer the question of what happened after he grabbed the Tesseract during the botched time heist in Avengers: Endgame.

“The question I got asked more than any other question in Endgame was where did Loki go, what happened to Loki?” Feige says. “This series will answer where he went.”

OMG, for the first time I am a bit exited about the series! I am still extremely sad that TDW Loki is lost, but they talk about “a lot of psychological evolution yet to happen”. So maybe we get something that is closer to the pre-Ragnaork era instead of cheap butt jokes! Yay! 

I’m still salty that Endgame kept original-timeline-Loki dead, unmourned and completely unmentioned, and instead threw this AU Loki at us in what feels like either a consolation prize or a shameless pandering cash grab.

I was invested in the Loki that we saw in the canon timeline, the one that protected Jane though he hardly knew her, the one that again and again tried to keep Thor safe, the one that saved Thor and his friends from being punished by Odin for treason, the one that realized just how conditional the love of his entire family truly was, how fickle his “friends” were, the one that realized he was only appreciated if he was sacrificing himself for Thor, because painful as that was, I wanted to see HIM recover from THAT and find self-worth and happiness after hitting rock-bottom, and this feels like an even more far-fetched dream, but I particularly wanted to see his reconciliaton with Thor.

(I also wanted to see Loki’s weird bs death in IW addressed. What was he thinking?! What was he doing off-screen? “The sun will shine on us again?” Please make it mean something.)

Because fuck it, remember the words Loki said to Thor when he pretended to be Odin at the end of TDW? The best moment of positive fathering Thor ever had was Loki and I’m mad that we never got to see Thor realize this.

I’m mad that Thor’s potential character growth, that is, having his illusions about Odin being shattered, was so tied up in the bits of progress we saw in TDW, and is so tied up in realizing how much Odin fucked up both Thor and Loki, but especially Loki, and we won’t get to see that.

Because, yeah, irl this sort of situation has to be worked on and improved individually if there is any hope of seeing children of abusive parents be independent and healthy, but I also wanted to see these two brothers break away from Odin’s shadow, both individually, but also together, and undoing everything from TDW, from IW, and even Ragnarok’s shitty steps backwards, feels like it’s robbing me of seeing that?

While I’m happy there is the potential for Loki’s grievances from Thor 1 being finally, finally addressed on-screen, even if it’s just through the streaming series instead of in movie theaters, and maybe possibly have addressed whatever happened to Loki between Thor 1 and the Avengers 1 in this series, it doesn’t feel the same.

And I’m not saying that it’s impossible to get an amazing, satisfying, in-character resolution for Loki in this series, heck, I would love to have to eat my words!

But after what was done to Loki in three consecutive films I’m out of benefit of doubt for Kevin Feige and co.

Not if it’s anything like Phase 3.

Phases 1 & 2: Establishes Captain America as the Man Out Of Time, leaving his lost past behind as he fights to save the future.

Phase 3: Captain America uses time travel to go back and live in the past.

Phases 1 & 2: Loki and Thor become enemies, but there is hope that the brothers will reconcile.

Phase 3: Thor bullies Loki into submission, then tells him he’s “the worst”, and then Loki is killed by his former abuser.  Thor never mentions his name again.

Phases 1 & 2: Tony Stark is a billionaire genius playboy who lives for thrills and hot chicks, but his love for Pepper and his poor relationship with his dad suggest what he really wants is to be a good husband and father.

Phase 3: Tony gets to have his family for a short time but then is killed, leaving his child fatherless.

Phases 1 & 2: Establishes the Guardians as a group of misfits who turn into a found family due to their traumatic pasts and shared experiences.

Phase 3: Saddles the Guardians with Thor as a new member, even though Thor doesn’t fit in and is obnoxious and aggressive to Quill.  Also Gamora is killed and replaced with another version of her from the past, erasing her love for Quill, friendship with the Guardians, and all of her character development.

First of all

I don’t even like the fact that there is another movie in the Thor franchise. Why? Let me explain…

The MCU Trinity

Iron man

Captain America

Thor

Iron man - a trilogy (three movies in the franchise)

Captain America - a trilogy (three movies in the franchise)

So why the hell should Thor get a fourth movie?! Then we could’ve had Iron man 4 and Captain America 4. BUT NO! We didn’t. And why do we then need Thor 4?!

Second of all

It is going to be directed by Taika Waititi. I don’t have that much against that fact as long as Loki’s not in the movie and they don’t ruin another character.

There’s no help to Thor’s character because he’s played by Chris H and he’ll portray him the same way no matter who’s the director of the movie.

Third (and last) of all

I couldn’t give less fucks about Thor franchise anymore. Ragnarok destroyed it. I can just hope that Loki stays dead and not mentioned in the Thor 4.

I’m excited for the Loki TV series as long as TW is not part of it.

MEANWHILE, AT THE VILLAIN’S LOUNGE…

“I hate waiting for sequels. Damn.”

“……..”

“Where is that rude eye-patch guy with the magazines when I need him?!”

I am so not the right person to answer this. I’d never heard of “hopepunk” before reading that post. I searched a bit and found more explanation and also an interview from the original writer of the post who is a fantasy author, in which she explained a bit more about it. But I don’t have enough knowledge about this and what I’m going to write is my limited understanding of what I just read. Tagging some people in case they like to chime in and probably know way more than me(sorry in advance if you didn’t like to be tagged): @iamanartichoke @philosopherking1887 @foundlingmother @9ofspades @juliabohemian @incredifishface @nlhollow

Quoting OP from the interview:

Hopepunk responds to this to say, “I don’t agree with that. I think the glass is neither half empty nor half full. There’s water in the glass and that’s important.” It says that people are petty and cruel and mean, but also people are amazing, and that our communities are capable of incredible things, and that we all as much as we have that core of malice and evil, we also have a huge capacity to do good and to take care of each other and to make the world a better place.

I think this has been the core of MCU specially in phase 1(and probably what drew me to this universe). I mean isn’t this the story of the three original Avengers?

Hopepunk says that genuinely and sincerely caring about something, anything, requires bravery and strength. Hopepunk isn’t ever about submission or acceptance: It’s about standing up and fighting for what you believe in. It’s about standing up for other people. It’s about DEMANDING a better, kinder world, and truly believing that we can get there if we care about each other as hard as we possibly can, with every drop of power in our little hearts. 

Tony was a war profiteer who scoffed at idea of peace without having weapons, without a war. “I love peace, I’ll be out of job without peace.” But then he saw young soldiers died with the weapons he created. He got his eyes open and saw first hand, the horrors a war can bring. And then we got to see Tony genuinely and sincerely caring about all the people who got hurt and trying to make up for his mistakes.

Steve’s true strength wasn’t his powers because of the serum, it was him being a good man. Not wanting to kill people, but trying to fight because he didn’t like bullies. Because he wanted to stand up for other people and make a better world.

And Thor, who was arrogant and hot-headed and a war monger, when realized the consequences of his actions, he tried to be better. He had lost everything, his home, his family, his powers but it didn’t stop him from trying. And so he tried to stand up for other people with his life, tried to ask forgiveness even though he had no idea what went wrong.

I think TR on the surface carries the same vibes too. We have this “hero”, who goes through so much, loses his father, is imprisoned on another planet and forced to fight for his life, loses his eye, his home and doesn’t give up once. He brings this misguided people together by seemingly being understanding of them and give them a chance to redeem themselves. There’s also “Asgard isn’t a place, it’s a people”(which is one of the few things I liked about this movie. Although it is not an original concept that belongs to TR. It’s been used many times in stories and it’s most probably inspired by the story of Moses and his followers passing through the see to reach a better land). That’s probably what the general audience see in this movie and that’s why they like it. The intention for hopepunk and the elements are there.

Everything above is true for the content of Ragnarök. It’s not hopepunk in any way. 

But what is more, I sense no “hopepunkiness” in the making of Ragnarök, and the very people behind it.

Hopepunk, it seems, comes from caring. Caring deeply and seeing worthwhile things in spite of the bleakness that also exists. Translated into a film, I think, it should show true emotion, like you say, and what is more, that emotion would be the heart of the thing, and the heart of the thing would be the Point. There would be a purpose to making this film, it should want to say something that matters to someone. 

When everything else fails, there is always the human connection. Making art and telling stories can be an act of defiance against the fuckupedness of existence, when it’s about reaching people. Engaging. 

That’s… so not where Ragnarök comes from. Ragnarök comes from the exact opposite of this.

Nobody gave a shit in Ragnarök. I’m talking about the people who decided how it would be made and had a saying in how it finally came out. They cared about fame, about money, about advancing their own career by trampling over other people’s (not “even if it meant trampling over other people” but actually running over the guys who played the Warriors 3 and Sif, and Tom “Honorary Hemsworth” Hiddleston  himself; first diminish Loki’s importance in the narrative and his overall charisma as a character, and then fucking vanish him from the MCU. That’s not paranoid hysterical fan conspiracy theory. That’s what’s HAPPENED.)

Taika Waititi has SAID he didn’t want emotion in his movie. Where it accidentally happened (as it would happen, when you have fucking Anthony Hopkins and Tom Hiddleston and yes even Chris Hemsworth, the guy can act, or he used to), he made sure it was lightened and destroyed. He explicitly and deliberately set out to mock and parody everything the fans loved. Because he believes we SHOULDN’T CARE about those characters and that universe and that story. What kind of fucking PATHETIC IDIOT enjoys that shit, who takes it seriously?? Those people don’t deserve his respect, let alone his honest efforts as an artist. And still he took the fucking money and made the film just the same. That guy is a fucking asshole.

As for Hemsworth, he seemed to care about ONE thing only in this movie: making His Thor was Better. Better than the previous incarnation, better than anyone else’s idea of Thor, and certainly, definitely, Better Than Loki. As if the problem with the franchise was all the trappings of the comic and the earlier MCU, as if that was what was plaguing the character and cramping his style, he divested him of Every single fucking thing that still tied His Thor to the comics or the previous films, from his friends to his fucking hammer, Asgard, and even his purported mission of being a Good Man rather than a Great King. 

And apparently when Hemsworth tries his best as an actor he must still feel he falls short from Hiddleston, so Hemsworth’s answer to that is Stop Trying So Hard and say it’s A Thing. Tom can’t Beat Him if there is Hemsworth isn’t playing, right? 

Unfortunately, it’s not enough to reduce Loki’s part in the story as much as possible and remove all the Shakespearean stuff out of the story, because Tom is not only an outstanding serious actor, he is also a tremendously gifted comedian (unlike other people who just think themselves funny). Dammit. Well, let’s give Hiddleston terrible material and shitty working conditions. Make sure the joke is on Loki. Try and steal the show now, Tom.

And I think nobody told Hiddleston outright that this is how it was going to be, but rather they played nice to his face, and then let him find out little by little, and that it took him by surprise as it did all of us. To the Betrayal critic who rhetorically asked “Who hurt you Tom”… I have a non-rhetorical answer.

(Go storm Broadway baby, win all the awards. You’ll make a killing. Nay, a MASSACRE. He is so fucking good in that play it will knock the socks off everyone who hasn’t been paying attention. Mark my words.)

AND of course they set out to separate Thor from Loki, Love Story of the Ages, so that the audience stopped seeing them as inevitably part of each other’s tale, and then proceed to get rid of Loki completely, to prevent him from casting a shadow over Hemsworth’s glory. Put and end to those painful reviews “Loki is the best of this film”, “the film only comes alive when Loki is in it”, “More Loki!” 

Again, this is not paranoia, this is what happened. This is the film, this is the interviews, this is the fucking publicity tour, this is infinity war and endgame. 

That fucking film came from a selfish place, and the result is heartless frivolity and toilet humor at best (good for you if that’s your thing), and downright painful for a good chunk of the old fans at worst (it’s certainly not my thing. I DID sign up for the Shakespearean tragedy, sorry if that makes me pathetic. Nah actually not sorry at all, fuck you Taika). And it was an intentional, dedicated spit in the eye of Loki fans everywhere. We all deserved to be taken down a few notches, get a reality check, etc. 

There is no respect and no love for anything or anyone in that movie, on a text or meta level, and no sincerity or true emotion anywhere.

It’s everything hopepunk is not.

well, it had been a while since i vented about that film. I was obviously needing it.

Well. That took eternity. One of these days, I will learn to work with colour and stop slapping orange overlay on everything. Honestly. 

_______________

If anyone wants a print, shoot  me an ask(US only).

Right??? I’m honestly just so bewildered by how the Russo Brothers seemed to have had absolutely no idea about what to do with Loki because like… he’s the fucking trickster god!! He can pull feints on people, pretend to be dead, read people’s minds, make their pants magically fall down, he is like THE best character type for a writer to make use of when it comes to snarky humor, plot twists, and whatnot. They should’ve been EXCITED to make use of him when it came to infinity war and endgame. Plus he’s a fan favorite!! And yet… nothing. They literally killed him off in the first 5 min and then threw their hands up in the air and were like “well that’s that”. And they couldn’t even be bothered to give him a meaningful death (like Natasha) or even one that kind of made sense for his character. The only other character who I thought kind of got screwed over was Gamora but then THEY BROUGHT HER BACK in endgame and it was like…wow…you guys… really don’t care for Loki do you??? (cackles humorlessly into the night) 

It’s just such a shitty exit for Loki and I’d already set the bar so low given how infinity war went and yet they somehow managed to go even lower?? by not having Thor mention him AT ALL. Some people have been pulling up Chris Hemsworth’s interview where he says he had a lot of input in Thor’s characterization in Endgame and that if he had to choose, he wouldn’t bring Loki back, and I just??? I don’t want to put too much stock in written interviews where statements can be taken the wrong way (plus mcu actors often have so many restrictions on what they can say) but if that’s even half true then I’m just… baffled. 

And like that’s the thing! I’m not even sure if I’m upset or pissed, because I’m mostly just so confused on why they’ve ignored him so much!! He was so instrumental in the first Avengers movie, it doesn’t make sense that he was erased so much in the final chapter. And as a writer I can’t help but wring my hands at all the missed opportunities!! Imagine 2012 Loki realizing that Tony was from the future and then offering him some information on Thanos in return for his freedom!! Imagine Asgard Loki seeing Thor, seeing that he’s changed and has been through a lot, and giving him the comforting encouragement he needed. Imagine Loki being able to communicate or share memories with his alternative timeline selves (like Nebula but with magic)!! Imagine Loki working with Nebula and Gamora to weaken Thanos!! Or just imagine, in the final battle, Thor struggling with Thanos with no access to his weapons. Thanos’ blade is at his neck, but just as he seems to fall, he sees… a snake. Bam! Loki appears out of thin air and stabs Thanos with relish (with a much bigger and magically cursed sword this time), before getting them away before he gets back up. “I told you Brother…” he says, “the sun will shine on us again…” 

I sincerely never imagined “literally nothing” would be what we got regarding canon-timeline Loki. Not a mention. Nothing.

And all the options mentioned above were good! There were so many possibilities, a wild-card type of character like Loki is versatile like that! He definitely wanted Thanos dead, he had intel on him, but nooooo.

I am sincerely convinced someone high-up in Marvel Studios just doesn’t like Loki but recognizes he brings in fans so they kept adding him to the posters for Endgame and the trailer for IW, and that’s why he’s getting a disney plus series but got this treatment in the movies.