Dimmed Down

6:31 Question: I do want to talk about the fact that you started Murderbot nearly 10 years ago. You would have been writing it a decade ago. Now that we've had eight main books in the series with short stories and a TV show, when you go down to write another Murderbot book like Platform Decay, is Murderbot the same sort of flavor entity, the same Murderbot that you started out writing 10 years ago?

6:57 Martha: I think so. In a lot of ways, I've tried to do it where I've tried to show Murderbot changing and as the books go along and as it gets a little more comfortable in its skin and literally starts actively working on its mental health.

Yeah, that just felt like the next logical step for the character. So, um I think it's still I think it's you know, still the kind of the trajectory I thought about having for it. I didn't know that I'd be able to go this long cuz when I when I wrote the first one again, I was kind of thinking it would just be that that one and then the second one and that the publisher wanted and then these four would be it. But I just kept thinking of more ideas of cool stuff to do with the character and to bring ART back into it. It's one of my favorite characters I think I've written.

8:00 Question: what I've noticed is the more that you write and something that maybe you'd not set out to do, but something that's really grown from it. Is found family being such a big strong aspect?Did you set out to do that?

8:12 Martha: Well, I really love stories with found family and I tend to write what I like to read. So that's it. It it feels like that kind of evolves. I select characters to write that it kind of evolves naturally that way.

8:28 Question: When you were working on the TV show, how much input did you have? And what was the one thing that you wanted to protect more than anything?

8:36 Martha: The one thing I wanted to protect more than anything was probably Murderbot's gender being basically not applicable.

(...) And so it was like no the like the core of that character was the corporation rim would not give secunits or the constructs anything that it didn't absolutely have to. So it wouldn't give them those kind of brain chemicals and it wouldn't it that Murderbot was very much not human and didn't want to be human and its refusal to adopt a gender presentation or anything like that was part of that.

I was really glad that they did that that they specifically showed uh its body and uh you can see like even little things like that I would not have thought of that there's no pores that it only has really looks like human skin from the neck up and after that it's just it looks almost plasticky. It skin looks almost plasticky and that uh there's a scene where you can see it doesn't have a belly button, doesn't have nipples and and there's a scene you can see that its hip is a doll joint and not a human joint.

11:36 Question: You're at liberty to kind of visualize and picture Murderbot and what it would look like because of that fluidity that's provided. And it's very interesting which sort of bias we subconsciously go into with that. There has been a lot of fan discussion around this as well. The adaptations have always tended with the TV show audio book and graphic novel. When a gender can be assigned, it defaults to male.

And I wonder with like it being a security unit that has sort of like a testosterone tendency, so to speak. A lot of in my community were like, I really saw this as an androgynous character. I really saw or I saw it being more feminine or I would, you know, I would have it like this and that. I actually had a drastically ethnic difference in how I pictured Murderbot, thanks to some incredible fan art that I found online.

How do you sort of like have that conversation when your property is or IP is being brought to life that that assignment has happened?

12:47 Martha: Well, you usually don't get much say in the casting. It's sort of like I'm at two minds of that because I think if there's another adaption at some point and Murderbot is played by a woman actress, that will be fine, too, basically. But I also feel like people who are non-binary or or don't or agender basically don't owe anyone a specific presentation.

And I think that was the thing that was probably bothering me the most with some of the the the fans online that were talking about this is like nobody owes you any kind of presentation whatever their gender is. And this sort of weird thing of, you know, oh gosh, the person who said that 'Alexander Scarsgard was too attractive to be agender or non-binary'. And it was like, huh, that's Yeah. It's like, think about the words that come out of your mouth for a minute. That was that was rude and just really the bias there.

So yeah, I would love it if people took this as kind of a way that maybe you should keep your mouth off other people's gender presentations and maybe you should worry about, you know, what you're doing and not try to be judgmental or supervisory over other people.

19:36 Question: So this has the potential to kind of go for five six seasons if you combine all the elements from various books. I was told, or I researched, that they're going to stick with the core cast to continue the story line. What's going to happen in season two?

20:03 Martha: It's going to be uh they're doing artificial condition, rogue protocol, and exit strategy. Three in one season now. (...) If you look at the individual books, the story there's not enough story there to really go for a full season. So, u the stories are, you know, the the plots are relatively simple in those books. So, I think that's really going to work. I I've read the scripts and they've actually they've already started filming. So, I've gotten some as of last month (...) And so, yeah, I've seen some pictures and everything and I'm actually going to go up and visit the set again pretty soon and stay for longer this time.

So, yeah, I think it's going to be really cool and it's nice that if it does not get renewed for a third season for the TV viewers, you have that that finished arc up to exit strategy. So, I think that works really well.

21:18 Question: But I do want more seasons.

21:23 Martha: Yeah, I do too. We're putting that out there for sure. The show's short format being just 30 minutes was actually cited as a factor in the show's success because it left people wanting more.

22:40 Question: I found that you said that by watching the television series, you learned something new about Murderbot. What was that? And I was wondering if it impacted writing Platform Decay or if the show had come out by the time you were writing that?

22:54 Martha: I only wrote Platform Decay last year. I wrote it right after I finished Queen Demon. So, no, I don't remember. (...) Well, there's so many different cool things that they did, but one of them was the costume designers, they decided that Arada would get bored in the wormhole transit, and so she would start embroidering, and so they had embroidered the character socks. And that's not something you're going to see on the screen, but it's a character thing for the actors, and it was so cool. And also, there was some embroidery on Ratthi's shirt has that embroidery on it on the on the arm and and the I think it's green and something, but it's they just she just wouldn't they just wouldn't want to be in these official company uniforms. They'd want to make it more personal splash on it.

And there's also a thing they came up with that was uh when Bharadwaj has been attacked by the hostile one and has that bite in her side, when Arada fixed her jacket, she did the the smoking in a different direction. So you could see where the injury was. And it's kind of a preservation thing about accepting things that have happened to you so you can heal and move on. And instead of like throwing away the jacket you're the clothes you were wearing when this happened is repairing them but leaving the the literally the scar the fabric scar.

I like those little touches that they're putting onto it where you're like, "Oh, maybe I should consider maybe my book that in somewhere that would be cool, too."

27:29 Question: What I loved about System Collapse was really unpacking Murderbot's trauma and mental sort of health is where you can say it or like the fragmentation and Murderbot discovering PTSD, right? (...) How did you approach writing things like PTSD without softening it? And is this why Murderbot now has such colorful language?

28:00 Martha: I'm still partly dealing with my own PTSD from different things. So, I think that, you know, trying to come up with any kind of magical solution for it doesn't work. You know, the only thing that works is just living through it and kind of learning what it's doing to you.

And so, I wanted Murderbot to have a similar experience. So, there's a lot thinking about how that would look to a being that was partly machine intelligence. And I that's kind of why ART and Murderbot can't figure out what's going on until the humans look at it and go this this fake memory, this false memory is obviously it's like a dream. It's a nightmare. It's like its trauma showing up and it's combinations of things that have actually happened and things that you were afraid were happening, things you've seen on TV or whatever. So, uh that was that was really cool. and trying to think of how they would because you can't uh even though Murderbot is part machine intelligence, you can't just write it out of its programming. It's like it's there in the neural tissue.

So, you have to find a way to kind of accommodate both. So, I hope I did a good job of it. I feel like I did humanizing a situation because before, you're right, you just delete it gets to not exist. But when you have what are we biological compounds? You don't get control over it. And brains work in fascinating ways. And so it was really interesting trying to see Murderbot literally compute this situation where it was not in that realm anymore. And I think that's what probably what causes so many problems for the secunits in general is that they delete their memories and yet there's still evidence of what happened in their neural tissue and their organic memory. And so it's it's really not good. It's really not good for them.

30:03 Question: Something else that we started exploring in Platform Decay is the sort of this notion of freedom. The governor module is something that Murderbot hacked day one and it's experimenting with now that I can do anything, what do I want to do? And it's just watching shows.

30:18 Martha Yeah. It's like, maybe I want to do anything now that I have a chance to do everything. I don't want to do any of it.

30:26 Question: Offering and imparting freedom onto other secunits has been really interesting as well. And Murderbot has essentially become somewhat of a mentor to others that are seeking their freedom. What was it like guiding the younger secunit three through sort of like its own training procedure to become free and have free thought and trying to become like non-detectable? So, Murderbot being sort of more of an expert in this and having to to teach. What was that like?

31:01 Martha I think that was uh it was probably really stressful for Murderbot in some ways, which is why it hasn't done a great job of it. I also wanted to give Three a very different personality. Three also doesn't quite know what it wants to do, but it's a lot more proactive about finding out, I think, and that's why in this is a little bit spoilery, but in uh Platform Decay, where it instead of going back to the ship like it's supposed to, it just kind of goes off on its own and explores the Torus and meets new people and new secunits and hands out the governor module code and and all that kind of thing.

And it's still just kind of exploring what being, you know, free is going to be like for it while fighting the default going back to sort of the code and programming and I'm supposed to check in and get a survey at this particular time. "How was my service?" And it's like, you know, we're not doing that anymore. So, it's like both extremes. It's battling what it's always known and battling what it can become.

And then Murderbot being like, I needed to be better about all of this and I'm learning about this for the first time. And what do you mean? You just gave the code out to anyone. Now there's like so many rogue secunits happening now because of of this. Are we containing this? And then Murderbot just shutting it down. Not my problem. Not my problem. Life is just going to happen now. And I'm not dealing with any of that. I am opting out which again problem.

38:40 Question: Something that platform decay goes into which we've not had in the series before is working with kids. And they say in the industry you should never work with animals and you should never work with kids. The kids in this book seemed designed to torture Murderbot specifically. How much fun did you have writing children who have zero concept of Murbots's personal space?

39:02 Martha: It was fun. It was Cuz that's what little kids are like. You know, if you've ever been around even little kids who don't know you from, you know, anybody when you're just like in a waiting room or something and we'll just come up and start talking to you or whatever. And that's just how kids are like. And so it was fun to get a little bit of that in there. And um because the original idea for the this book that I as I finally started getting really into it was Family Road Trip from hell. So, you know, you needed the kids along to have to stop and go to the bathroom and all the time eat food, you know, and all these other things that these problems you have on a road trip and combusting into tears. Yes.

39:56 Question: Speaking of emotions, something that I really loved about this book was the emotion check. It is a new sort of like writing device, I suppose, when it comes to Murderbot, but also having Murderbot have this analysis of itself and checking in with its emotions. Were there any times that you had to cut it because it was almost too funny or too dark in its reflection?

40:14 Martha: Not really that I remember, but I think it's all the fact that it's in Murderbot's voice. For me, Murderbot's voice is pretty easy to write. It's just the the plot and the other details of the story that I have trouble working with. And part of that is because Murderbot's voice is easy to write. I could write Murderbot going to the grocery store and doing all these other things. And uh but that's not that's not a very good story. So that's why I think I end up with a lot of a lot of text that I just have to take out because it's just not, you know, the pacing is not right or the story is not right or something like that.

40:52 Question: What I would notice with the emotion checks is Murderbot either discovering emotions for the first time. What is this? What am I feeling? Like what word would I put to this feeling? Which is super important. But then the other side of that is recognizing and accepting and almost flourishing with the emotion. Anger being perfectly acceptable in particular moments. And that's when I loved Murbot sort of like language and just being like almost permission to express getting it out there, which is healthy.

41:20 Martha: Yes.

41:26 Question: You said that this book is the second last book in the Murderbot series?

41:36 Martha: Yeah, I've got one more Murderbot book on my contract. Right now I'm working on Hierarch, which is the third book in The Rising World. This comes after Queen Demon, and the next one will be a Murderbot book. And that'll probably be the last one, at least for a while. I just kind of need a break. And also, I think that I've kind of come with Murderbot to a point where it's in a really good place. So, if I did stop, that would be a good place to do it. But I hate to say, you know, never again because every time I say that, then I turn around and get an idea I want to work on. So, uh, yeah. So, I said, you know, basically for now, that's the last one I'm going to work on.

52:54 Question: Does Murderbot like to dance or have any desire to express itself creatively?

52:54 Martha: It has. No, I don't think so. I don't know about dancing. It probably wouldn't be It wouldn't get the kind of pleasure from the movement and the music that that we do. I think it probably listens to music because he's obviously very aware of it how the music in the TV shows helps impacts the story impacts the story, but I don't think it just feels about music the same way that we do.

56:14 Question: Skyla says, "Hi there. I'm AFAB, which is assigned female at birth, late diagnosed autistic, and ADHD reader, and I resonate with Murderbot. It being treated, traumatized, and transported as an object, wanting everyone to stop needing things from it so it can just watch shows, etc., led me to understand it more as more femalebodied. I know it's agender and asexual. In the TV adaptation, Murderbot presents more male. When you were writing, did you imagine any particular body or gender presentation for Murderbot, or is the TV version's embodiment entirely the adaptation team's choice?

56:49 Martha: I think we went over this a little bit. I don't I never described and I don't think I thought of Murderbot as having a female body because I just couldn't imagine why they would the Corporation Rim would do that. So I thought basically about it being a very generic male body but not like bulky or anything with muscles because it wouldn't need that. It wouldn't need that kind of tissue to be strong. So it would be very that was my description and that's description I gave to Tommy Arnold who did the illustrated edition is very slim kind of like a swimmer's body just kind of generic for functionality but even that's Yeah.

58:30 Question: If you could trade one human body part or ability that you value for one of Murbots, would you do so? If so, what would you exchange?