Insert Bofa Joke

Let’s begin with Marsha and Sylvia. 

1) Marsha P. Johnson was a gay man/transvestite/self-identified drag queen.

“Johnson’s concept of her gender identity varied throughout her life. In the early 1970s, Johnson simultaneously identified as a “gay transvestite” and briefly considered surgical transition,[18] the latter of which she ultimately rejected, saying in an interview on June 26, 1992 (ten days before her death), “I’m a man.”[3]”

He was for transgender rights, that’s true, but he himself was not transgender or transsexual.

2) Sylvia Rivera is a bit more complicated. Sylva referred to herself as a gay man, a transvestite, and a pre-op transsexual. So she may or may not have been transsexual, but that is not for us to assume. 

~ “My first lover taught me how to make love to another man, and in my youth I was always supposed to be the bottom. This is the way I thought a relationship was…an effeminate gay boy was solely to be the bottom. My lover was a butch-looking boy, very butch. Actually, no one even knew he was gay.

~ “People now want to call me a lesbian because I’m with Julia, and I say, “No. I’m just me. I’m not a lesbian.” I’m tired of being labeled. I don’t even like the label transgender. I’m tired of living with labels. I just want to be who I am. I am Sylvia Rivera. Ray Rivera left home at the age of 10 to become Sylvia. And that’s who I am.”

~ “What about the term “drag queen?” People in STAR prefer to use the term “transvestite.” Can you explain the difference? 

A drag queen is one that usually goes to a ball, and that’s the only time she gets dressed up. Transvestites live in drag. A transsexual spends most of her life in drag. I never come out of drag to go anywhere. Everywhere I go I get all dressed up. A transvestite is still like a boy, very manly looking, a feminine boy. You wear drag here and there. When you’re a transsexual, you have hormone treatments and you’re on your way to a sex change, and you never come out of female clothes. 

You’d be considered a pre-operative transsexual then? You don’t know when you’d be able to go through the sex change?

Oh, most likely this year. I’m planning to go to Sweden. I’m working very hard to go. 

It’s cheaper there than it is at Johns Hopkins? It’s $300 for a change, but you’ve got to stay there a year.”

Very few drag queens were allowed into Stonewall and the bar was meant for gay men. 

“Eric Marcus, Making Gay History

Actually, it was the first time I had been to the friggin’ Stonewall. The Stonewall wasn’t a bar for drag queens. Everybody keeps saying it was. The drag queen spot was the Washington Square Bar, at Third St. and Broadway. This is where I get into arguments with people. They say, “Oh, no, it was a drag-queen bar, it was a black bar.” No. Washington Square Bar was the drag-queen bar.If you were a drag queen, you could get into the Stonewall if they knew you. And only a certain number of drag queens were allowed into the Stonewall at that time.“

“Martin Duberman, Stonewall

Washington Square was Sylvia’s special favo[u]rite. It opened at three in the morning and catered primarily (rather than incidentally as was the case with Stonewall) to transvestites[.][…]If she was going out at all… she would go to Washington Square. She had never been crazy about Stonewall, she reminded Tammy: Men in makeup were tolerated there, but not exactly cherished.”

From Marsha: “Well, uh, at first it was just a gay men’s bar.  And they didn’t allow no, uh, women in.  And then they started allowing women in.  And then they let the drag queens in.  I was one of the first drag queens to go to that place.  ‘Cause when we first heard about this…  and then they had these drag queens workin’ there.  They didn’t never arrested anybody at the Stonewall.  All they did was line us up and tell us to get out.”

From Sylvia herself: “What people fail to realize is that the Stonewall was not a drag queen bar. It was a white male bar for middle-class males to pick up young boys of different races. Very few drag queens were allowed in there, because if they had allowed drag queens into the club, it would have brought the club down. That would have brought more problems to the club. It’s the way the Mafia thought, and so did the patrons. So the queens who were allowed in basically had inside connections. I used to go there to pick up drugs to take somewhere else. I had connections.” Sylvia was said to not have even been at the Stonewall riots. 

“Paul D. Cain: Where’s Sylvia Rivera? Duberman’s Stonewall placed her at the bar on the first night of the riots, yet your book makes absolutely no mention of her (although you do mention her buddy, Marsha P. Johnson). Do you think that, like so many others, she fabricated her remarks about being there?

David Carter: Yes, I am afraid that I could only conclude that Sylvia’s account of her being there on the first night was a fabrication. Randy Wicker told me that Marsha P. Johnson, his roommate, told him that Sylvia was not at the Stonewall Inn at the outbreak of the riots as she had fallen asleep in Bryant Park after taking heroin. (Marsha had gone up to Bryant Park, found her asleep, and woke her up to tell her about the riots.) Playwright and early gay activist Doric Wilson also independently told me that Marsha Johnson had told him that Sylvia was not at the Stonewall Riots.Sylvia also showed a real inconsistency in her accounts of the Stonewall Riots. In one account she claimed that the night the riots broke out was the first time that she had ever been at the Stonewall Inn; in another account she said that she had been there many times. In one account she said that she was there in drag; in another account she says that she was not in drag. She told Martin Duberman that she went to the Stonewall Inn the night the riots began to celebrate Marsha Johnson’s birthday, but Marsha was born in August, not June. I also did not find one credible witness who saw her there on the first night.”

“My late uncle Bob Kohler was a Stonewall veteran; he could never actually place either Sylvia or Marsha at the bar.”

“The eyewitness accounts in RAT (July 1969) specifically credits “one guy” (not a lesbian or a queen) for precipitating a scuffle by refusing to be put into the paddy wagon…. At least two people credit Sylvia herself with provoking the riot…. But I’ve found no corroboration for either account[,] and Sylvia herself, with a keener regard for the historical record, denies the accuracy of both versions. She does remember “throwing bricks and rocks and things” after the mêlée began, but takes no credit for initiating the confrontation.“

“The Ambrosini photo does not show a single transvestite. Craig Rodwell told researcher Michael Scherker that “one of the myths about Stonewall is it was all drag queens. I mean, drag queens are part of what went on. Certainly one of the most courageous, but there were maybe twelve drag queens. In thousands of people.”

“Randy:  Marsha’s the only one, she’s the only one everyone agrees was at the Stonewall riots. There were a lot of other people, but everyone agrees that Marsha was there, so…

Marsha:  The way I winded up being at Stonewall that night, I was having a party uptown. And we were all out there and Miss Sylvia Rivera and them were over in the park having a cocktail.”

Please note how it says transvestites - transvestite is defined as:

“a person, especially a male, who assumes the dress and manner usually associated with the opposite sex.”

“Eric:  Now you mentioned an organization that Marsha, you were involved with.  What was the name?

Marsha:  Street Transvestite Action Revolutionaries with Miss Sylvia Rivera.

Randy:  STAR.

Eric:  What was that group about?  What was it for?

Marsha:  Ah, it was a group for transvestites.

Randy:  It was a bunch of…

Marsha:  Men and women transvestites…”

Films/interviews:

Pay It No Mind: Marsha P. Johnson

Randy Wicker Interviews Sylvia Rivera on the Pier

Stonewall Veterans Talk About the Night That Changed The World - Stonewall: Profiles of Pride

3) The person who started the riots was a black butch lesbian drag king named Stormé DeLarverie. 

“Stormé DeLarverie (December 24, 1920 – May 24, 2014) was a butch lesbian whose scuffle with police, according to Storme herself and many eyewitnesses, was the defining moment that incited the Stonewall riots, spurring the crowd to action. “It was a rebellion, it was an uprising, it was a civil rights disobedience–it wasn’t no damn riot.”[1]”

“Fed up with constant police harassment and social discrimination, angry patrons and neighborhood residents hung around outside of the bar rather than disperse, becoming increasingly agitated as the events unfolded and people were aggressively manhandled. At one point, an officer hit a lesbian over the head as he forced her into the paddy wagon — she shouted to onlookers to act, inciting the crowd to begin throw pennies, bottles, cobble stones, and other objects at the police.”

“Several spectators agreed that it was the action of a cross-dressing lesbian – possibly Stormé DeLarverie – which would change everyone’s attitude forever. DeLarverie denied that she was the catalyst, but her own recollection matched others’ descriptions of the defining moment. “The cop hit me and I hit him back,” DeLarverie explained [in Kaiser’s own interview with her on 1995.12.09].”

Remembering Stormé - The Woman Of Color Who Incited The Stonewall Revolution

However, there are some disagreements on this:

“Charles Kaiser suggested to the author that Stormé DeLarverie (see The Gay Metropolis: 1940–1996 [Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1997], p. 198) was this woman, but she could not have been. To cite only a few of the problems with this thesis, DeLarverie’s story is one of escaping the police, not of being taken into custody by them, and she has claimed that on that night she was outside the bar, “quiet, I didn’t say a word to anybody, I was just trying to see what was happening,” when a policeman, without provocation, hit her in the eye (“Stonewall 1969: A Symposium,” June 20, 1997, New York City). DeLarverie is also an African-American woman, and all the witnesses interviewed by the author describe the woman as Caucasian.”

4) You know that before Stonewall, there were LGB movements, right?

https://www.out.com/entertainment/popnography/2010/03/homo-history-emma-goldman.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LGBT_actions_in_the_United_States_prior_to_the_Stonewall_riots

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_on_Religion_and_the_Homosexual

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_the_Clock

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Human_Rights

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mattachine_Society

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daughters_of_Bilitis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Kameny

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Gittings

Just a few examples for you.

5) You should also recognize that Stonewall didn’t affect people outside America.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific-Humanitarian_Committee

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_Benevolent_Association

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Federation_for_Lesbian,_Gay,_Bisexual_and_Transgender_Rights

You can deny history all you’d like, but it doesn’t change it.

So I told myself it’s unreasonable to go back testo cause of wanting to prevent something I can’t even know will or won’t happen yet. That I need to calm myself down and give it more time.

But then yet a few hours later I started thinking even further in that direction, that what if I should go back to being a trans man. That maybe I really just want to look feminine, and not like female. Cause obviously I do like looking male in the face, my deep voice, being hairy, etc. If it wasn’t for that I want to have breasts again and that I present with fake breasts in public, there’s not much of a difference between me and really feminine trans men. That I don’t need to hate my pussy, or my wide hips, or want a dick, to be a trans man when those aspects are apparently not at all relevant for my passing as male in society. Since I can’t pass as female again no matter what the fuck I do, I mean. But I don’t feel good thinking about that at all. It makes me feel sad, and it feels like I’d be giving up something that deeply matters to me.

I think it comes down to a lot of different aspects. Could I be fine with considering myself a straight man? No, absolutely not! I’m a femme lesbian, I couldn’t make it as a feminine trans man trying to squeeze myself into the straight dating market in the past, in fact it spat me right out without any consideration. Fem straight men is just not a thing, and that for a deeply sexist, very real reason. And why “fem men” are always associated with attraction to other men. And I would never want to date straight women anyhow. But then of course I don’t think there would really ever be anything stopping me from dating lesbians for as long as I’m still bio female. But whatever, I’m not exactly in the dating market now anyhow, so that’s kinda moot right now, but I just mean in a long term perspective of “you never know what may happen 10 years from now” or whatever.

Passing women, he/him lesbians, and butch women on T are, historically, a legitimate thing and a legitimate way to navigate gender non conforming womanhood. So maybe being a proud, passing woman, on T or not, is something to consider?

I know of a few great Facebook groups for reconciling people and masc/passing women. I could direct you towards them if you're interested?

queer theory is woman-hating

https://newrepublic.com/article/155614/female-now

queer theory is woman-hating

https://newrepublic.com/article/155614/female-now

In much the same way that the halachic prohibition on consuming blood does not prevent blood libel, and that the difficulty of low-paying jobs and relative ease of office work does not prevent "Capitalism rewards hard work," it isn't a question of facts for the majority of people making this argument.

If you think no one is harassing or complaining about cis lesbians not dating them, and it only comes up because cis people bring it up, then you need to broaden your searches a bit because in just my blog I have tons of examples of it.

DON’T KNOW IF THIS HAS YET BEEN SHARED BUT THIS IS ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT.

I DON’T KNOW IF ALL OF US CALLING WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE BUT IT IS BETTER THAN DOING NOTHING.

This one is going to be controversial. I’m not against transition in and of itself. I’ve been transitioning for three years. I don’t regret it, and I currently do not plan to detransition. I have decided against all lower surgery, but will seek out peri/key hole top surgery.

I just think that way transition is handled, at least in the US, is not actually helping dysphoric people. I think informed consent is medically irresponsible. Transition alone is not reliably a good treatment for dysphoria. I think part of the problem is we see dysphoria as one thing with one cause, so if you have it you’re automatically trans and will benefit from transition, but it’s not. It’s important people develop coping skills and work through underlying issues that are causing and making dysphoria worse. It’s also important that certain underlying causes are identified and ruled out. Like, transition is actually a pretty drastic treatment, especially when surgery gets involved. It turns someone into a life long patient, and has serious, permanent, and even unknown changes and consequences. It should really be more of a last resort than a first line treatment you can simply make an appt with a doctor and be on hormones a month later.

Like someone who develops sex dysphoria due to a combination of internalized misogyny, internalized homophobia, misogyny, homophobia, and trauma? Transition is not a good treatment for them. Rather than transition, they should see a therapist to work through their internalized prejudices and trauma, and develop coping skills. Transitioning in an attempt to escape oppression will only lead to more suffering via more oppression.

Or someone who “doesn’t feel fully female” because they hate gender roles and can’t conform them perfectly? Transition is not a good treatment for them either. They need to self reflect and understand that gender roles are oppressive, strict, and no one can fully conform to them. That gender roles are so deeply ingrained in our ideas of what it means to be a man and woman, that we see them as something innate to being male or female. That it’s normal to not feel woman enough because of that, and learn to embrace being a gender non conforming woman. She doesn’t need transition to fix her. She doesn’t need to change her body to fit in a box, she needs to learn to say fuck the boxes entirely and that she can be a woman without fitting in them.

Someone who can’t identify why they suffer dysphoria though? Someone who’s tried other, less drastic options? Someone who’s worked through underlying issues and still hasn’t seen a reduction in dysphoria that nets them an acceptable quality of life? Someone who continues to see a counselor, self reflect, and work on coping skills and underlying issues? Someone who can demonstrate they have realistic expectations and don’t see transition as a cure all for all their dysphoria or all their life problems? That’s when I feel transition is acceptable.

I’m just seeing too many people who transition and once the novelty wears off or the dysphoria wears off in one area due to changes, they fixate on something else. Like they get on HRT and get changes and pass, but then their chest dysphoria gets significantly worse. Then they get top surgery and then their genital dysphoria gets significantly worse. This is my speculation about why post op suicide rates are high. People run out of hope, there’s no light at the end of the tunnel to look forward to. They hype it up as the final thing that will fix their dysphoria and make their problems easier to deal with. But then the novelty wears off and… They still have depression, they still have trauma, they still hate their job, they still owe 5 grand on that accident, their car still needs to get fixed, they still need to take the cat to the vet, etc etc.

We tell each other this is normal, but is it really? Should it be? Transition is supposed to make our dysphoria significantly better, not worse or with little change. And overall, I see so many people where their quality of life doesn’t seem much better. Or like I have post op friends who got no psychological aftercare and little psychological care prior tell me their life is so much better now, but then why are you still suicidal all the time? Why are you still so depressed? Why do you still struggle to get work done and take care of yourself? Why do you still talk about how dysphoric you are over not being a “real man/woman”?

I expect to lose followers over this, but it just feels like the way we’re handling dysphoria and transition is just shifting it around for a lot of people, not reducing it. We tell each other that transition is the only way, you can’t work through dysphoria, therapy doesn’t help. I think it doesn’t help because we set ourselves up with that mindset and shut it out. We don’t put real effort into it.

In much the same way that the halachic prohibition on consuming blood does not prevent blood libel, and that the difficulty of low-paying jobs and relative ease of office work does not prevent "Capitalism rewards hard work," it isn't a question of facts for the majority of people making this argument.

In much the same way that the halachic prohibition on consuming blood does not prevent blood libel, and that the difficulty of low-paying jobs and relative ease of office work does not prevent "Capitalism rewards hard work," it isn't a question of facts for the majority of people making this argument.

This one is going to be controversial. I'm not against transition in and of itself. I've been transitioning for three years. I don't regret it, and I currently do not plan to detransition. I have decided against all lower surgery, but will seek out peri/key hole top surgery.

I just think that way transition is handled, at least in the US, is not actually helping dysphoric people. I think informed consent is medically irresponsible. Transition alone is not reliably a good treatment for dysphoria. I think part of the problem is we see dysphoria as one thing with one cause, so if you have it you're automatically trans and will benefit from transition, but it's not. It's important people develop coping skills and work through underlying issues that are causing and making dysphoria worse. It's also important that certain underlying causes are identified and ruled out. Like, transition is actually a pretty drastic treatment, especially when surgery gets involved. It turns someone into a life long patient, and has serious, permanent, and even unknown changes and consequences. It should really be more of a last resort than a first line treatment you can simply make an appt with a doctor and be on hormones a month later.

Like someone who develops sex dysphoria due to a combination of internalized misogyny, internalized homophobia, misogyny, homophobia, and trauma? Transition is not a good treatment for them. Rather than transition, they should see a therapist to work through their internalized prejudices and trauma, and develop coping skills. Transitioning in an attempt to escape oppression will only lead to more suffering via more oppression.

Or someone who "doesn't feel fully female" because they hate gender roles and can't conform them perfectly? Transition is not a good treatment for them either. They need to self reflect and understand that gender roles are oppressive, strict, and no one can fully conform to them. That gender roles are so deeply ingrained in our ideas of what it means to be a man and woman, that we see them as something innate to being male or female. That it's normal to not feel woman enough because of that, and learn to embrace being a gender non conforming woman. She doesn't need transition to fix her. She doesn't need to change her body to fit in a box, she needs to learn to say fuck the boxes entirely and that she can be a woman without fitting in them.

Someone who can't identify why they suffer dysphoria though? Someone who's tried other, less drastic options? Someone who's worked through underlying issues and still hasn't seen a reduction in dysphoria that nets them an acceptable quality of life? Someone who continues to see a counselor, self reflect, and work on coping skills and underlying issues? Someone who can demonstrate they have realistic expectations and don't see transition as a cure all for all their dysphoria or all their life problems? That's when I feel transition is acceptable.

I'm just seeing too many people who transition and once the novelty wears off or the dysphoria wears off in one area due to changes, they fixate on something else. Like they get on HRT and get changes and pass, but then their chest dysphoria gets significantly worse. Then they get top surgery and then their genital dysphoria gets significantly worse. This is my speculation about why post op suicide rates are high. People run out of hope, there's no light at the end of the tunnel to look forward to. They hype it up as the final thing that will fix their dysphoria and make their problems easier to deal with. But then the novelty wears off and... They still have depression, they still have trauma, they still hate their job, they still owe 5 grand on that accident, their car still needs to get fixed, they still need to take the cat to the vet, etc etc.

We tell each other this is normal, but is it really? Should it be? Transition is supposed to make our dysphoria significantly better, not worse or with little change. And overall, I see so many people where their quality of life doesn't seem much better. Or like I have post op friends who got no psychological aftercare and little psychological care prior tell me their life is so much better now, but then why are you still suicidal all the time? Why are you still so depressed? Why do you still struggle to get work done and take care of yourself? Why do you still talk about how dysphoric you are over not being a "real man/woman"?

I expect to lose followers over this, but it just feels like the way we're handling dysphoria and transition is just shifting it around for a lot of people, not reducing it. We tell each other that transition is the only way, you can't work through dysphoria, therapy doesn't help. I think it doesn't help because we set ourselves up with that mindset and shut it out. We don't put real effort into it.

TL;DR - What I'm saying is, transition alone will not fix you. You need to work through your shit and develop coping skills too if you want transition to actually improve your quality of life.

Sorry I think dysphoric people should get medical care and treatment in a way that actually improves their quality of life and dysphoria. How can we say transition is a medical treatment if the medical treatment is just making people's dysphoria shift around or making it worse? If people are frequently saying shit like, "Did anyone else's bottom dysphoria get a lot worse after top surgery?" or getting surgeries despite not having realistic expectations, saying shit like, "Just shop around for counselors. I ditched my old counselor and my new one thankfully is signing off on my bottom surgery after just two sessions. My old one said I didn't have realistic expectations and that concerned her and she wanted to work together for a few more months. She just didn't get that once I get bottom surgery literally everything else will be easier to cope with." Getting a second opinion is one thing, but doctor shopping until you get what you want as fast a possible is another.