hello! saw your reblog pertaining to the "is this character redeemable?" discourse and wanted to toss in my own opinion.
no one [in the fandom] ever defines redemption. even though this is the game where you literally decide which actions are sinful! and since you, as a player, are a cult leader, it feels somewhat annoying to go "I'm the good ruler, these NPCs are the bad ones". <- like I understand that the Bishops slaughtered almost all of the sheep, tortured their followers, abused their powers.. but the Lamb's done that too. not to the same brutal extent, but there's some amount of manipulation/coercion/brainwashing required to lead the flock.
2. the Bishops suffered in Purgatory for an indeterminate amount of time, stuck between life and death, wounds gaping and festering. if punishment equates to redemption, haven't they had enough? <- I feel like the emphasis is often placed on "suffering as a source of of holiness", and not "okay, they were tortured, how do they start making amends"? and then they were stripped of their Crowns, forced into mortal bodies, and shoved into the last Cult.
3. there's so many save files, and thusly, so many directions canon could go in. I may not like someone's saccharine Narinder/Lamb fanfiction, but it isn't necessarily out of character if you've glimpsed the character-buildup first. (example: the Bishops forgiving? forging a truce with Narinder now that they're all followers).
4. also! <- you don't have to answer this immediately, or at all, but I feel like the fandom of "the game where you interrogate what morality is and redefine it" defaults to.. evangelical "martyrdom -> redemption" (which makes. sense??) but. after awhile it just tires me out. there's so many different versions of the Lamb--as the player, as a force of nature, as the arbiter of justice--that could be written!
..and so often the fandom defaults to "the Lamb would HATE them FOREVER >:[". at least in my experience. +I feel like it's more interesting to write the Lamb as "merciful". (example: "I'll let you shelter in my Cult.. as long as you serve me for eternity :3 and if you disobey, I will hunt down what remains of your sect and show them what I HAVE REDUCED YOU TO. Okay? We're clear on that? Yay! ^u^" kindness for the apparent greater good, etc etc).
(post-script: I hope you're doing okay-er in regards to your wearisome job. Also the Lamb plushie you displayed looks so cute!! A friend gifted one to me and my first response turned out to be "..oh! you've given me a stuffed animal version of.. me? thanks! -wait a moment.." lol).
+I hope your day's gone well. :O :D
ENG: I’ve been wanting to answer this question so badly for a while now. My job kept getting in the way, but now I’m finally free! Thank you so much for waiting so long, Sofa!!!
1. About Redemption...
Maybe it's because I like the Bishops, but I really disliked how the fandom constantly depicted them as absolute evil. If you think about it, didn't the official lore describe Shamura as Lawful Evil? I believe they were simply doing what was necessary on the stage of CotL, even if their methods might seem somewhat violent from our perspective.
They only seemed like the bad bosses because our playable character was the Lamb. If we were playing as minions of the Old Faith or the Bishops themselves, the Lamb would have looked like the evil boss. It's entirely a matter of perspective.
2. Suffering and Redemption
To be honest, I was also a bit dissatisfied at first that the update allowed us to recruit the Bishops as our followers. Because once they become followers, they just happily laugh, chat, and reunite with their family.
But thinking about it again, I realized that this itself is actually the punishment given to them. That's why I even mentioned in a comic I posted in the past that the reason the Lamb spared the Bishops was to subject them to eternal punishment. Furthermore, it's only after a significant amount of time has passed since becoming followers that the Bishop family requests relics, purifies them, and finally meets again to reconcile. Only then do they atone for their sins, occasionally making confessions to the Lamb, and eventually reconciling right in front of them.
After that event, the Bishops become official figures in the Lamb's cult and gain the trait of never becoming dissenters. I believe this is exactly the final destination of their atonement.
Because of this, I actually thought that there is no specific form of "redemption" in this game. Depending on the perspective, it might feel like redemption, but it's not entirely that either. It seems there is no concept of absolutes here. And through the depiction in Woolhaven showing that the Lamb's species weren't purely good either, I realized that these characters cannot be divided into black and white; their story progresses within that ambiguous, gray boundary. I think this is a truly massive charm point of the game.
And I also want to strongly support your opinion of the Lamb as a "benevolent tyrant." The way they smile warmly on the outside but cleanly execute any dissenters who disobey them—that aspect of an absolute ruler really gives me a thrill!
3. The Multiverse
I think I saw something in the Woolhaven AMA saying that every playable save data is its own separate universe. So, your words and all of our theories can't really be considered wrong. Because of that, I've decided to just lightly pass over fanworks that aren't my taste now, haha.
Honestly, my heart is pounding because it's been a while since I read something this insightful. It was a bit long, but I really love posts like this that leave me with such deep thoughts. Thank you again for waiting so long!!
전부터 이 답변을 너무나도 하고 싶었어요ㅜ. 회사가 방해했지만 이제는 드디어 자유랍니다ㅜ 정말 오랫동안 기다려주셔서 감사합니다 Sofa!!!
1.구원에 대하여...
주교들을 좋아해서인지 팬덤에서 마냥 주교들을 절대 악으로 묘사하는 걸 보기 싫었어요. 따지고 보면 공식에서 샤무라를 질서악이라고 표현했잖아요? 주교들은 이 무대에서 반드시 필요한 행동을 했던 거 뿐이라고 생각합니다. 그 방법이 우리 입장에서는 다소 폭력적으로 보일 수 있더라도... 우리 플레이어블 캐릭터가 어린 양이었기 때문에 그들이 악으로 보였던 것이지, 만약 옛 신앙의 부하라던가 주교들이었다면, 어린 양이 악으로 보였을 테죠. 완전히 관점의 차이라고 생각합니다.
2. 고통과 구원
저도 사실 업데이트로 인해 주교들을 우리 추종자로 영입을 할 수 있었던 것에 조금 불만이 있었습니다. 우리 추종자가 되면 마냥 행복하게 웃고 떠들며 가족과 다시 재회하잖아요. 하지만 다시금 생각해보니 오히려 이것이야말로 주교들에게 주어진 형벌이라는 생각이 들었어요. 그렇기에 과거 포스트 올린 만화에서도 어린 양이 주교들을 살린 이유가 그들에게 영원한 형벌을 부여하기 위해서라고 언급한 적이 있었죠ㅎㅎ 또 주교 가족들은 팔로워가 된 지 꽤 시간이 흘러서야 유물을 요청하고, 정화하며 결국 그들이 다시금 만나 화해를 해요. 이제서야 그들은 자신의 죄를 속죄하고 때로는 어린 양에게 고해성사를 하며, 결국 이들은 어린 양 앞에서 화해를 했죠. 그 이벤트 이후로 주교들은 어린 양의 교단에 공식적인 주교가 되며, 절대로 이단자가 되지 않는 특성을 가지게 되죠. 이게 바로 그 속죄의 종착점이라고 생각합니다.
그래서 저는 사실 이 게임의 구원이란 형태는 특별히 없다고 생각했습니다. 관점에 따라서는 구원이라고 느낄 수 있어도, 또 마냥 구원은 아닌거죠. 이 곳에서는 절대적인 개념이 없는 거 같아요. 그리고 이번 울헤이븐에서도 어린 양족이 마냥 선한 존재가 아니었다는 묘사를 통해 이 캐릭터들은 흑백으로 나눌 수 없고 회새과 같은 애매한 경계선 안에서 이야기가 진행된다 사실을 깨달았어요. 정말 이게 큰 매력 포인트라고 생각해요.
그리고 어린 양이 자비로운 폭군이라는 해석을 적극 지지하고 싶네요ㅎㅎ. 겉으로는 생긋 웃지만, 자신의 말을 듣지 않는 이단자들을 말끔히 사살해버리는 절대적인 지배자의 면모가 저를 기분 좋게 만들거든요! ㅎㅎㅎ
3.다중우주
울헤이븐AMA에서 우리 플레이어블 세이브 데이터 하나 당 하나의 우주라는 비슷한 말을 보았던 거 같아요. 그러니까 나의 말도, 당신의 말도, 우리 모두의 해석도 마냥 틀렸다고는 볼 수 없지. 그래서 이제는 저도 제 취향이 아닌 작품은 가볍게 넘기기로 했네요ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ
솔직히 이 정도로 통찰력있는 글을 오랜만에 봐서 심장이 두근거립니다. 조금 길었지만 그만큼 깊은 생각을 안겨주는 글들이 정말 좋다고 생각해요. 오랫동안 기다려줘서 감사합니다!!
