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People know that Jace had a dragon. Vermax's death doesn't change that. Is Viserys I and Aegon the Uncrowned less Targaryen because their dragons died?

If you wanna watch it I cannot recommend it enough; I just warn that it covers a LOT.

Laena Velaryon, daughter of Oakenfist, and the next ruling Lady of Driftmark

The Amethyst Empress

This has probably been discussed a thousand times before but I don't go through the tags often. But I am so confused about Alysanne's interpretation of Viserra's attempted seduction of Baelon. Queen Alysanne said Viserra only did it out of ambition to be queen. Not only do we not have any evidence backing this claim up but Aemon was also still very much alive and well at the time. I don't believe succession had been decided either yet. Alysanne herself wanted Rhaenys to be queen after Aemon.

Even if Baelon was his brother's successor at that point in time, it could be a very long time away before Baelon could even sit the throne himself. No one knew Aemon would die just a few years later. He was young and in good health. So I do not get why Alysanne thought Viserra did this for a chance at being queen because that chance could be a very long time away for all they knew.

I know King Jaehaerys and Queen Alysanne are not winning any parenting of the year awards any time soon but wow I still can't believe that Queen Alysanne, supposed champion of women, somehow didn't understand that her 15 year old daughter, who was described as wild, high-spirited, and had plenty of friends in King's Landing, simply did not want to be married off to an old man in the cold north and be sent away from home.

Viserra's preening and prancing around Baelon was likely just her having a girlish crush, she was literally only 15!!! 😭 Baelon was known to have been a great husband to Alyssa and a good prince and father. Of course Viserra would develop a crush and think he's her only way out of a terrible betrothal.

I’ve seen this brought up before but if one grows up in a family where siblings are expected (and usually encouraged) to marry, it wouldn’t surprise me if people like Alysanne don’t know what regular sibling relationships are supposed to look like. She says this regarding Alyssa:

“Alyssa is for Baelon,” she declared. “She has been following him around since she could walk. They are as close as you and I were at their age.”

That’s her reasoning. Just seems like siblings being siblings to me.

Because on the surface, HOTD takes a very sex positive stance. They champion Rhaenyra for being very open with her sexuality and for being sexually liberated in a very conservative society. They act as if she is an impressive beacon of feminism for this. And that would be great…if it weren’t for the fact that this sex positive outlook lives and dies with Rhaenyra’s and team black’s sexual experiences only.

Outside of Rhaenyra’s perspective, sex scenes are often degrading, predatory, abusive, and meant to embarrass the character to others in universe and/or the audience.

Criston is seen saying no and trying to leave when being coerced into sex with Rhaenyra which she promptly ignores by kissing him and blocking the door. Then that sex he consistently has with Rhaenyra is used as a joke for how pathetic he is for not accepting her offer to be nothing more than a personal “whore”. And his consensual sex with Alicent is seen as hypocrisy but also interrupted by Helaena after blood and cheese so that he can be blamed for this atrocity because of his “immorality”.

Aemond is seen cuddling in the lap like a young child of the woman who raped him when he was young, then being served milk, and then walking out of the brothel naked. With the whole scene being painted uncomfortable and rather degenerate.

Aegon has a scene of him being a rapist to ensure he is known as a bad and evil man. And then he has a scene where he explicitly states how his genitalia have been damaged. As if his disability from his attack is embarrassing and disgusting.

Larys one of the few disabled characters in the show, has a fetish that surrounds his disability that he uses to degrade Alicent. Thereby making him seem disgusting and pathetic.

And of course. Alicent. Her first sexual encounter we see her have is her looking dead inside while being raped by her pedophilic husband, a scene that seems to have the connotation of deserved assault because “she asked for this” by “seducing” Viserys. She is fetishized for information and thus makes her seem degraded and gross. Her sex with Criston is interrupted by Helaena after blood and cheese so that she, too, is blamed for the atrocity of the murder of her grandchild because she was “immoral” for…having consensual sex with someone after her rapist husband finally dies.

Every scene that any team green character experiences is painted in a way that portrays them as disgusting, perverted, and immoral; or is painted in a way that is meant to humiliate these characters to others in and out of universe.

How is this sexually positive? How is this an appropriate way to portray your “villains”, by painting them negatively and embarrassing them through their sexual encounters?

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The worst part is that they’ve used these sexually degrading scenes specifically to “humble” a rape victim and child bride. Humbling her because they believe that she is power hungry and desperate for the throne and so she uses and betrays Viserys and Rhaenyra. And aside from that being a major mischaracterization (Alicent didn’t want the throne as a teenage girl forced to marry the king, and she doesn’t betray Viserys and Rhaenyra out of personal ambition but protection for her family), you know who that description fits? DAEMON TARGARYEN.

Daemon wanted the throne more than anything. Groomed his teenage niece to have a chance to marry her to get closer to the title of king. Betrayed, humiliated, and hurt his brother and niece wife to make himself a better candidate as heir. Choked his niece wife when she didn’t listen to him. And consistently asserted himself as king, a position to be viewed as higher than his wife the queen.

And similar to Alicent, he was “humbled” this season. But how was he humbled? By having private visions that are unknown to (almost) everyone. And these visions are mostly just him being shown the people he hurt in the process of seeking his power. Except for the one with his mother, which is sexually inclined, but not presented in the same depraved and humiliating way that the scenes with Alicent or any of team green are.

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This whole show just has such a gross way of depicting the people they see as villains. And it shows how hypocritical their messaging is. HOTD is not a feminist, sex positive show. It’s far too obsessed with sexual violence and humiliation against people they dislike to be one. This show believes that sexual positivity and liberty is good. But only for those who deserve it. That it’s not a right but rather a privilege. And anyone they deem as immoral, evil, bad, or “unfeminist” doesn’t deserve it. They deserve to be ridiculed, humiliated, and humbled by their failures as people. And I can’t stand it.

It is rather a fundamental disagreement about the nature of Kingship. And funnily enough the lines of battle extend deep into the fandom.

On the one Hand you have TG who champion a very Westerosi idea of Kingship: the King is the most powerful nobleman in the Kingdoms, but he is very much a nobleman, a primus inter pares and very much subject to the customs and laws that govern that class. Presupposing that framework, Rhaenyra and Viserys seem almost suicidally stupid at times, ignoring the illegitemacy of the Strong boys, murdering (or not murdering) Laenor antagonizing the royal court when they are dependent on their favour etc.

We here in TG can pontificate until Kingdom come about Rhaenyra‘s stupidity or Daemon‘s shameless violence and TB will just be utterly baffled what we‘re even trying to say. They are Targaryens. The laws of Westeros do not apply to them. Meanwhile all our arguments and legal theories would fall flat in the face of Caraxes showing up at our doorstep to have a nuanced discussion about the topic of succession and royal will.

Because to Viserys, Rhaenyra, Daemon and their fanbase the King is something fundamentally different. The Monarch is a Dragonlord from Old Valyria. The social constructs of Westerosi nobility do not apply to them. You will accept my sons as legitimate, because I say so and that is the only thing that matters here. Openly breaking the rules becomes a demonstration of power, to remind the Lords of their subservience and relative impotence. I am going to murder a member of an important family and you all know I did it, but there is nothing you can do about it.

And yeah, Targaryens are so ludicrously more powerful than any other House that it is a very reasonable model to understand Targaryen legitimacy and representation. But regardless of all their might they need the cooperation of the nobility, unless Syrax takes up a post as the realms first flying administrator.

The Greens weren't at all delusional or selfish to expect Aegon to be named heir.

As a matter of fact, the firstborn sons of lords and kings become heirs the moment they were born, and without the need for specification. It doesn't matter if the first wife, or the second, or the tenth, has given birth to said son. So when Otto and Alicent advocated for Aegon's birthright, they asked for a basic thing in their time and society. No matter how much people want to ignore this fact and call Aegon 'usurper', his claim was very real and very strong. This is why he, his sons and his brothers would have found themselves on the Wall at best and dead at worst even if they had adhered to Viserys's whims.

Lucerys has zero claim to Driftmark. And no, being the great-great-whatever grandson of Alyssa Velaryon doesn't make the slightest difference.

Not even legitimisation would have helped Luke retain his Velaryon heirship because he isn't a Velaryon. Period. The argument about his being Alyssa Velaryon's descendant, which is somehow supposed to justify the actual usurpation of the other House's seat, is one of the most nonsensical takes I've seen. Naturally, the noble Houses intermarry all the time. If every lord opened his pedigree and decided that he has a claim to his great-grandmother's family's castle, Westeros would drown in blood. That's why succession laws exist, as unfair as they can be. For some reason, I don't see people saying that Doran Martell should be crowned king because he's descended from Daenerys Targaryen.

Women in Westeros can and do inherit. Rhaenyra isn't special.

As the Andal law goes, a son inherits before a daughter, and a daughter inherits before an uncle. While the male primogeniture is a thing, there's a clear clause of female inheritance. Cersei becomes the Lady of Casterly Rock when her brothers are out of picture. Rhaenys operated on the same law while trying to get her lawful heirship. There are cases when uncles attempt to steal their nieces' birthright (as in the situation with Sansa Stark and her uncle Jonnel), but plenty of women do rule their ancestral seats. Saying that Rhaenyra is the first woman to be named heir is wildly inaccurate.

If Rhaenys had ascended the Iron Throne instead of Viserys, the matters of succession wouldn't have changed.

For some reason many people believe that Rhaenys's ascension would have magically wiped out male primogeniture (same for Jace if he had become king). I'm sorry to disappoint, but Laenor would have been Rhaenys's heir, not Laena. The latter would have been made one only if Laenor had met his canon fate and died with no legitimate issue. As I mentioned earlier, Rhaenys strived to get her inheritance based on Andal law, according to which she does have an advantage over her uncle Baelon and his sons. If she had been the older sister of Viserys and Daemon, she wouldn't have pressed her claim. By the same logic, if Viserys had never remarried, Rhaenyra would have had a legal advantage over Daemon (though Jaehaerys's 'brilliant' management of Rhaenys vs Viserys debate might have gotten in the way).

The Greens are pro Andal law, not anti women in power.

They are both men. Don't need percy becoming a women

Percy becoming imortal

I prefer male Percy x Apollo over female Percy. No hate, no shade! She's excellent and my type (I get jealous of Apollo's with her), but I prefer our baby boy.