Messaging people for the first time is so hard. What am I supposed to say? Like, "You seem really odd and your blog intrigues me. Do you want to have philosophical conversations or perhaps talk about fictional characters?" What! Whatever. I will just follow you back and stare at your blog with my big beautiful brown eyes.
Reblog if you're okay with people coming into your DMs with the "you seem really odd and your blog intrigues me, do you want to have philosophical conversations or perhaps talk about fictional characters"
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(I didn't want to maintag it, because the maintag actually discusses real life human trafficking. I'm not sticking something about a fictional character in there)
Also- I'm not really arguing this, I'm arguing that it can be argued. That it's not a baseless argument, and there's evidence to support it. (Ahahaha that's so bad. It doesn't matter if Batman didn't intend to do it, if he didn't actually traffick Jason. Look, I'm sorry, but if the parenting is so bad that it looks like trafficking, there's something very wrong)
Okay, so. Batman ...does kinda traffick Jason, in Batman #408-#409.
Here's the definition of human trafficking (taken from Polaris):
U.S. law defines human trafficking as the use of force, fraud, or coercion to compel a person into commercial sex acts or labor against their will. The Action-Means-Purpose (AMP) Model can be helpful in understanding the federal law. Human trafficking occurs when a perpetrator, often referred to as a trafficker, takes an Action (induces, recruits, harbors, transports, provides), and then employs the Means of force, fraud or coercion for the Purpose of compelling the victim to provide commercial sex acts (sex trafficking) or labor/services (labor trafficking). At a minimum, one element from each column must be present to establish a potential situation of human trafficking.
So! Batman transports Jason (Action) from the streets to Ma Gunn's School for Boys, where he will live/is harboured (Action). (and then Jason is compelled by force to stay there (Means) and learn how to help Ma Gunn rob museums (Purpose). He runs away, though)
As such, please, Bruce, make sure you're not taking kids to a labor trafficking ring. Or trying to fund it! (In #409, Bruce says publicly -in front of Vicki Vale, the reporter- "Personally, I like your back to basics approach. And if you need more funding..." )
This is relevant in a second-
Here's what Batman says in #408, right before, uh, ...trafficking Jason to Ma Gunn:
(no social workers, no cops. just go to the place I'm taking you)
Here's what Batman says in #409:
(implied: no cops, no social workers. just become Robin)
No one think about the similarities! It's fine! Ahaha don't worry about it!
A quick diversion to Mia, from Green Arrow (2001, #2)
Richard treated Mia well, to begin with. (As in, he didn't outright force her. He manipulated/groomed her into doing what he wanted) But he started off nice, doing nice things with her, praising her, showing her how to do things, etc.
And here's an important part - she tells him that she's a kid, and he denies it. She's not a kid! She's a woman! (An adult)
(Also, fucking shout-out to how much information is on this page. There's so much here! Well done GA) (I am going to refer to this page quite a few times)
(hey no one look at this page from Batman #410. No, Robin's not a kid! He's an adult! Noonelookattheparallels)
And this parallel as well - Batman takes Jason in, looks after him, praises him, teaches him how to do things...
(as in, Richard did that with Mia, when he was getting her to care about him)
And then later on, when Jason isn't raring to go (because he's just found out that Bruce has been lying to him for six months about his dad), there's this scene:
Jason does not look like he wants to be there!
But Bruce's focus is clearly Batman, he clearly wants Jason to be out as Robin- so that's what Jason does.
(no one look at Mia's lacklustre reaction to Richard wanting to have sex with her. no one compare that)
Okay, some more relevant bits from Polaris about trafficking, just to keep in mind:
People in sex trafficking situations almost always know and even trust or love their traffickers. Traffickers target vulnerable people who have needs that the traffickers can fill. Sometimes they offer material support – a place to live, clothing, a chance to “get rich quick.” Other times they offer love, emotional support or a sense of belonging.
In many cases, people in sex trafficking situations do not see themselves as victims while they are being trafficked. They have been so expertly manipulated or “groomed” that they believe they are making their own choice to engage in commercial sex. These emotional ties are as powerful as being held in handcuffs or behind bars. People in sex trafficking situations may well also depend on their traffickers for physical needs like money or shelter.
Labor trafficking most often begins with a simple job offer. It becomes trafficking when pay or working conditions are abusive and the worker cannot quit or complain because the boss is threatening them or exploiting their desperate economic circumstances. Kidnapping or physical force are rarely part of how labor trafficking situations begin.
Traffickers can be business owners, bosses, or other workers with a managerial role in a formal business. Traffickers can also be victims’ families or legal guardians, including parents, spouses and intimate partners.
Okay, now look at the wording here:
'invested time in you', 'months of training- physical and mental...I took you into my home, my world, to share a secret, sacred trust-'
Yeah, because that's how you talk about your adopted kid.
(invested time in you??? Why are you talking like thatttt)
(hey. no one look at Mia. no one look at Richard saying 'who took you in? who took care of you, and loved you' 'and do I ever ask you for anything? other than you let me show you how much I love you once in a while?')
Okay. Now, for Jason running away.
(This is not looking at what Bruce is thinking or feeling. It's looking at how Jason might be feeling, at how he might think of his relationship with Bruce, and the relationship between Batman and Robin.)
Bruce and Alfred decide unilaterally that Jason will no longer be Robin. Jason has no input in this.
Jason then finds out that his biological mother may be alive, and he decides to go find her (because he can't depend on Bruce for help) - I quote 'can't depend on anyone to help'
(I would put the panel in, but there's an image limit :( )
(this bit is reading into it, not just what is on the page: Jason can't depend on Bruce because he's no longer Robin - he's no longer doing the thing that Bruce wants from him. Robin is the reason that Jason's with Bruce. If he's not Robin, then Jason and Bruce....aren't anything.)
This conjecture is then backed up by Bruce, who chased the Joker to a different continent. He's there as Batman, not Bruce. And he's definitely not there for Jason. Why would he be? Hunting down a runaway (going after Jason) is not why Bruce is there.
(yeah, Alfred's tracking Jason via credit card. But Bruce still decided that the Joker took priority over his teenage son running off to a different continent.)
That is- Internally, Bruce cares about Jason, and wants him to be safe. Externally though, his actions definitely come across as: if Jason isn't Robin, isn't doing Robin things, then Bruce doesn't care what he does.
(if Jason isn't Robin, if he doesn't do the thing that Bruce wants him to do, the thing that Bruce took him in to do- then Bruce doesn't care if he leaves. He can run away all he likes! He doesn't have to be under Bruce's roof if he's not going to be Robin. And Bruce won't support Jason if he's not Robin.)
Further backed up by this:
Internally, Bruce is going nooo my partner :(
Externally? It comes across as 'I will leave you here. I'll check in before I go.' (continued undertone from the previous issues is that because Jason is no longer Robin, he no longer is needed/wanted under Bruce's roof)
(Why is? Bruce so bad? At communicating?)
Okay, I'm going to repeat a bit from Polaris again:
Sometimes they offer material support – a place to live, clothing, a chance to “get rich quick.” Other times they offer love, emotional support or a sense of belonging.
Jason was offered a place to live, clothing, education, love, a sense of belonging - if he was Robin. Robin was offered first, the rest came after he accepted the role.
Labor trafficking most often begins with a simple job offer. It becomes trafficking when pay or working conditions are abusive and the worker cannot quit or complain because the boss is threatening them or exploiting their desperate economic circumstances.
Traffickers can also be victims’ families or legal guardians, including parents, spouses and intimate partners.
Jason is a child. He cannot have a job. Bruce is supposed to be his parent, his guardian, not his boss or partner.
The last few issues before DitF, Bruce is ...pretty hands on with Jason. He's grabbing him, shouting at him. He's unhappy with how Jason acts as Robin, and lets him know it.
Jason could quit, I guess? But as above, his place in Bruce's home (and heart) definitely appears as if it's conditional on him being Robin. On him being Robin the way that Bruce wants him to be.
But! There is definitely evidence against Jaybin being trafficking.
In #413, Jason doesn't go out as Robin, he skips it to do homework. Bruce does want him to keep his grades up, and would ground him from patrol if they were bad.
Also, Jason has a bananas amount of freedom. He is off doing his own thing before cases, during cases, after cases. He's completely off grid for several hours, multiple times, and Bruce does not see this as unusual.
And he has his own credit cards. Multiple of them! Apparently in his name! (unrelated, but: Bruce...why... He is a child....)
The force, fraud, or coercion are the relevant bits in determining if it's trafficking.
Do I think Bruce coerced Jason into being Robin?
No. I think he heavily encouraged it, but Jason wanted to do it. (Ignore that "In many cases, people in sex trafficking situations do not see themselves as victims while they are being trafficked. They have been so expertly manipulated or “groomed” that they believe they are making their own choice to engage in commercial sex.")
If Jason had quit being Robin, and stayed quit, would Bruce have let him stay in the Manor? ...probably? (Pre-crisis Jason stayed in the Manor and wasn't Robin, but he did not spend much time with Bruce. Because if he wanted to have an emotional connection with Bruce, if he wanted to spend any significant amount of time with him- he had to be Robin.) So, yeah, Jason could stay in the Manor and not be Robin, but it would absolutely suck.
(....Could that count as grooming? It's not intentional grooming, but like...not great even so!)
So.
In any case, Jason's situation has a lot more in common with sex trafficking than it does with labour trafficking. I am not an expert though, I could be wrong. (Also, the way DC writes Batman and Robin, especially with Dick - they're written as partners, not as father and son.) (Also, please know I am thinking of this post, with Dick and Bruce as an allegory for abuser and victim)
Does Batman intend to traffick Jason-as-Robin? No, I don't think so.
But by god, there are a hideous amount of parallels to trafficking in Jason's Robin run.
left: the Nebra sky disc, circa 1600 BCE, showing the Moon, Sun, and stars in gold on copper - the oldest depiction of the cosmos in the world
right: the Webb Space Telescope, July 2022, revealing thousands of baby galaxies forming in the early days of the universe - humankind’s deepest look into the sky
On the one hand, I have been in the same position for long enough that I'm in excruciating pain. On the other hand, there's a cat on my lap, so I'm legally not allowed to move.
On the one hand, I have been in the same position for long enough that I'm in excruciating pain. On the other hand, there's a cat on my lap, so I'm legally not allowed to move.
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Okay, look. I have generally absorbed that one of the important parts of Batman (and Nightwing)'s ethos is to give people a second chance. That's part of why they don't kill, because they believe that everyone deserves a second chance, no matter what.
I haven't read a huge number of their comics, but I have read a few, and...no they don't? Well, they do sometimes.
For example: Harvey. But it was when he wasn't Two Face at all, and as soon as Two-Face comes back, he's straight back to being a villain. In that situation, it mostly seems as if they were splitting Harvey and Two-Face up, treating them like they're two separate people (because of the DID).
Another example is Harley - but she works with the Birds of Prey, who work more with Oracle, not Batman or Nightwing.
Also, Huntress - who mostly works with Oracle (and Babs manipulated her against killing, in a very Machiavellian scheme). And Babs doesn't seem that trusting of her anyway (in what I've read).
For Batman and Nightwing themselves....can someone please point me to the comics where they do actually give people second chances? Like, properly?
They don't often harangue their love interests about it, but otherwise...Here are a few of the situations I've seen (just incidentally, not even looking for them)
- Sometime in the eighties, Penguin tried to go straight - Batman stalks him, and completely ruins any chance of it succeeding. If you want me to cite it, I will, I just cba rn.
- Batgirl (2008), Cass comes back, after she'd killed some people - because she was brainwashed into it. Bruce did let her back in - with the proviso that he was constantly monitoring her, and Dick was very unhappy about her being let back in at all, to the point where he actually physically attacks her.
- Battle for the Cowl storyline - Bane, Catman, and Jester are actively saving people, including a baby. But because they've killed people, Nightwing pretty much tells them to fuck off. They're understandably irritated at him being a sanctimonious jerk when they've just been doing some good deeds, like saving children.
- Red Hood. Ahahaha don't make me laugh if you want to argue he has been given a second chance. He's not trusted at all, very nearly every time Batman sees him, he's beating Jason into the ground - he's even done his best to permanently cripple him. Twice. Batman hasn't even done that to the Joker (who, by the way, has dismembered toddlers. RH hasn't done anything close, and yet recently, has been treated worse.) Don't even argue with me. He hasn't been given a real second chance, not by Batman. (If you do want to argue; or if you want to argue about whether or not he deserves it - that's not the point of this post. Take it elsewhere.)
So...I thought giving second chances was part of Batman's ethos - but is it? Really?
I started reading Green Arrow (2001), and in the first few pages of the first issue, the dialogue goes like this:
Superman: You don't believe in redemption of any kind?
Batman: I believe in justice. Period.
Superman: I believe in second chances.
Batman: Then let's recruit Doomsday to bring back the sun.
(For context, Superman had suggested asking Hal Jordan for help, post Parallax.)
And Batman is supposed to be the second chances guy? Only if they started out as villains, I guess.
If you were ever a hero who became a villain, for whatever reason, and are now trying to be a hero again, well...fuck you. Is what I'm getting from him.
....yep. Just read Batman #644 (I wanted to check something). And this man does not believe in second chances.
You can be a pacifist, and save hundreds of lives for *decades* but as soon as you mess up once, that's it, you're a soulless killer, with an evil mind. You can never atone. You can't even *help* people, not ever again.
Where the fuck does he give people second chances? (Except for the Joker, in the Killing Joker. Is it really just the Joker???)
This is a genuine question. Where are these second chances that I've heard about? Does anyone know??
I don't care who you're telling to kill themselves. Firstly, I don't actually think that's okay to say to anyone, and second, they are not the only one who will see it. It doesn't matter who it was addressed to - it still feels like it was addressed to me.
I have chronic suicidality. At any given moment, if you ask me, "Do you want to die?" the answer will be yes. But most of the time I'm not actively thinking about it. Most of the time, I'm distracted. Coming across "kys" is like being asked if I want to die. It reminds me that the answer is yes.
People with chronic or recurrent suicidal thoughts do our best to avoid ruminating on thoughts of suicide. We do our best to avoid things that might trigger a spiral of intensified suicidal ideation.
Every time you tell someone to kill themself, you remind everyone with suicidal thoughts that suicide is an option - and in doing so, you make it more likely that they will take that option.
Stop telling people to kill themselves. Find ways to be cruel that don't have collateral damage. Or hey, here's an idea: maybe stop being cruel at all.
It's been over six months since I made this post, and I think it's about time I clarified something: I want you to reblog this.
This is probably the only post I will ever actually ask people to reblog. This is because it's the only post I've ever made with the specific, active intention of changing how people behave. I want people to see this, because I hope it will make some of them reconsider their actions. I hope that in some small way, I can make a dent in an online culture that forces every suicidal person into a constant game of Russian roulette.
Jimmy Olsen is supposed to be Superman's friend, right? At least, that's what people have called him.
You are supposed to respect your friends.
When he gets powers, he decides to be a hero, to help people. And then he figures, hey, maybe I can join a team.
So he tries the Teen Titans (is that what they're called? The team with Red Robin on it). And he tells them the criteria for his powers - that his life has to be in danger. They don't believe him. Because why would he know anything about himself?
So then he tries the Justice League. The Justice League with Superman on it, with his friend on it. And they don't believe him either. They think he's making it up. Superman, specifically, thinks he's making it up.
He tells them that his life needs to actually be in danger for his powers to show themselves. But no. Superman thinks he's making it up, so that he can join the Justice League. Just for funsies.
Admittedly, I haven't read comics with Jimmy Olsen in, but he's not an idiot. Maybe listen to him when he says something? (Scratch the maybe.)
Fine, whatever, it's for plot purposes. But that's a stupid reason. They could have had a different plot point. Instead, they have these heroes, someone who's called Superman's friend, and Superman treats him like a pet who does tricks. (The tricks being taking pictures of Superman, I guess) Not someone to actually listen to when he says something.
Just. Fucking listen to him when he says 'hey. I've got powers somehow. From experience, I need to be in real danger for them to show up.'
robins (2021) is best forgotten about, but i do like this bit. jason knowing so much about the local chop shops next to the fact that willis used to work at them
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There are ...multiple problems with Robins (2021) - see: the fundamental misunderstanding of ...most of their characters. They're not- they're not like that. That's not what happened. That wasn't why.
Whatever! It tracks with DC's party line, I wasn't terribly surprised.
But the betrayal of going 'oh? they seem to have read Jason's Robin run?' I am pleasantly surprised, that doesn't happen normally.
To 'oh... they've...only heard of it. Crucial details are wrong.' Like...the timeline. The timeline is very relevant. Also, how Batman reacted to that case. (Hint: not how it's depicted in Robins) Also! José died! He is dead! Batman toppled a pile of cars on top of him and squished him. He is not alive to be featured in this!
To 'oh. Nooooo. That's not. That's. No.' about José Garzonas. Followed swiftly by 'NOOOO that's NOT what he WAS!!!!!' - like...please. If you cannot bring yourself to read the issues themselves (there's not many! Not a strenuous task), or the summaries of the arc (easily found with a quick google search), even reading the TITLE of the comic that was relevant to what you have written would have cleared this up. It is quite clearly titled The DIPLOMAT'S son. José Garzonas was a DIPLOMAT. please read the TITLE!!!! Or SOMETHING!!! instead of MAKING THINGS UP!!!!
spiritsglade is right though, the chop shop mention, and the lightning scar are cool.
Also, shout out to Damian and Steph being friendly. They're buddies!
If you read Battle for the Cowl after Countdown, then-
Okay, context: in Countdown to Final Crisis, there's a perfect world - Earth-51. It's perfect because there are no supervillains. And there are no supervillains because Batman killed all of them.
There's also a world where Jason is Batman. And he's good at it.
And then shit happens, and Jason loses all hope in heroes. (Because they advocated for the death of billions of people over the death of one already-dying guy. And then trillions died. But they're still heroes! Because heroes don't kill!)
But he still believes in Batman. He doesn't believe in heroes - he gives up the mask. But he believes in Batman.
And then there's Battle for the Cowl.
Batman is dead. Gotham is in chaos. Gotham needs there to be a Batman. (This is the thesis of the series.) Everyone knows it.
Dick is currently refusing to be Batman.
So Jason gives it a shot. He tries. (There's a world out there where he's Batman. So maybe in this world he can be Batman?)
And as Batman, he kills. Not all the time, but he does. He is, in fact, virtually indistinguishable from Bruce!Batman. (Except for those dorky little notes going 'I'm Batman' - and I will never forget them, they're so funny) Even Tim -when he doesn't know it's Jason- is like, wow, what a good Batman.
Admittedly, Jason!Batman doesn't just kill supervillains. Because, you know, he does have his own morals. He tends to focus on the more mundane crime, if he has a choice. (Jaybin, my beloved. Also, the whole thing with the Iceberg Lounge, etc - that's normal crime. Not supervillains.)
Anyway, my point is: Jason is copying Batman. But he's not copying his own Batman, he's copying Earth-51!Batman.
For the emotional reason:
Because his own Batman was demonstrably ineffective against the Joker - and against many of the Rogues. He gets kids killed, and then moves on to the next one, and doesn't change a thing except getting more emotionally unavailable - and emotionally volatile. His own Batman erased Jason's life from memory. He hid everything about him - to the point where people didn't know he existed. He didn't matter. (He did, but not in any way that he would have wanted)
But Earth-51!Batman. He very visibly gave a shit about Jason. He'd wanted him around. He'd made him a uniform! (When I catch you, Tim Drake, for Red Robin...)
Of course Jason was going to imitate that Batman.
Yes, because he was effective. Undoubtedly, he was effective.
But also because he visibly cared about Jason.
And then! Jason doesn't want to be alone. He never wants to be alone. This is the guy who can be defeated by hugging him! He wants so bad to be a part of the family.
And Earth-51! Batman, he was alone. He was effective, but he was dead inside, because he was alone. Jason doesn't want that. He's gonna do better. He reaches out to the people who have previously worked with Batman, and he asks them to work with him.
And they tell him to go fuck himself.
They attack him, and they trigger him, and they hurt him. They want nothing to do with him.
(and they're supposed to be the heroes we're rooting for? nah)
Ah, I see there is an evil creature that can't be killed by normal means. Jason will now surely- Jason will now surely use his magic evil-killing swords. Right? His magic swords specifically for killing mystical evil creatures. Now that there is an evil creature for Jason to kill, he will use the swords that he has specifically for this purpose? Right? Right???? Why is he just shooting it hello???
Also. The fact that he goes: this moment here. This was the worst thing I'd ever seen. The most evil thing. The Joker killing a random man. This is the source of evil.
Hello???? For one, you've seen worse. Jason, you've literally crawled through a sewer full of corpses. That was worse.
For two, Joker has done worse (admittedly maybe not in this continuity), but the Joker has killed children. For fun.
Killing a random man is not...the worst thing he's ever done. If it was because of the thing that the Joker was holding -the way the art implied it was- I'd understand that. But the words were not saying that.
Baffling.
Also. Give Jason back his swords. Not even his magic swords. Just his swords in general. Why is he now using guns? The swords were fun...
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"But you know, what some people don't want to be saved because saving means changing" oh wow, way to divorce yourself from any sense of responsibility for this mental health crisis/the suicide attempt that happened right after you played a recording of your dad's will calling him a failure and fought him on a train, the way it paints Jason as a coward (in the aftermath of his suicide attempt!! wtf!!) when he's clearly having a mental breakdown for the whole story and is actively trying to change/become his own kind of batman even if it's a bad decision. Like damn, I guess you not showing him any compassion for the entire story until he was literally seconds from jumping makes it really on him that he didn't believe your reform pitch.
Also! It's just straight up incorrect that Jason didn't reach out.
Tim and Dick were out there going 'well Jason's being crazy again, and fucked up, and insane, we need to stop him'
(ignore that before Tim knew it was Jason, we was going 'wow this new Batman is good. He's almost exactly like the real Batman' Just ignore that. Just ignore that as soon as he realises it's Jason, he completely changes his mind, and now it's all 'we gotta stop this crazy guy')
And Jason is there being a pretty competent Batman. Yeah, he killed some people - but he didn't- I don't think he did it as Batman. And yeah, he left the dorky little notes going 'I'm Batman'
But do you know what else he was doing? Saying 'Hey, Tim, Tim, team up with me. Be my partner. Hi, I'd like to work together'
Saying 'Hey, Dick. Would you like to team up with me? Please will you be my partner? I'd like to work with someone'
Which is...reaching out. To the Bats.
Who, in response to him reaching out *checks notes* hit him lots instead.
In one of Tiffany Aching's books - 'I Shall Wear Midnight', he talks about rough music:
“The rough music was never organized. It seemed to occur to everybody at once. It played when a village thought that a man had beaten his wife too hard, or his dog too savagely, …”
"No one controls the music, Mr. Pretty - you know that. It just turns up when people have had enough. No one knows where it starts. People look around, and catch on another's eye, and give each other a little nod, and other people see that. Other people catch their eye and so, very slowly, the music starts and somebody picks up a spoon and bangs it on a plate, and then somebody else bangs a jug on the table and boots starts to stamp on the floor, louder and louder. It is the sound of anger, it is the sound of people who have had enough. Do you want to face the music?”
In 'Marriage, A History', Chapter 7, Stephanie Coontz says
"Villagers might also engage in ritual harassment of the offending couple. These rituals, called charivaris, or "rough music," were boisterous, obscene, humiliating, and sometimes painful ways to punish people who violated community norms. Neighbors surrounded the house, singing rude songs and burning effigies. They might even break in, pull the offenders out, and humiliate them by forcing them to ride backward on a mule or dunking them in a nearby pond."
Hi, hello? I am learning more about Terry Pratchett's books, and I am not even reading them right now. His mind..... Wow..... He just...knew so much.
