#rop meta

The other thing I noticed while doing my research, incidentally, is how Sauron has this weird literal Rumplestiltskin quality to him. Like if you tell him something is so, it is so in a very literal way.

Galadriel's "be free of it" turns into: "no, you told me, after our victory, you said that whatever I'd done before I could be free of it now."

I'm honestly surprised he didn't add "no take backsies!"

anyway, this is what i've come here to say:

In episode 1x01, Galadriel wonders how can you tell the difference between light reflecting on water (which has hidden dark depths that can drown you) and the real light in the sky, and Finrod says (which is not revealed until 1x08) "sometimes to find the light you need to touch the darkness" -- i.e. you figure out which one is water and which is sky by testing it.

But Sauron is taking this very literally and out of context, which is what backfires on him spectacularly, in the end. I don't know if he just got clip chimped by ösanwe or if he is deliberately misunderstanding, but Sauron is saying something akin to: ally yourself to the darkness so you can find the true path towards the light. His version of the ends justifying the means.* And he constantly tries to convince Galadriel with that line. But that isn't what Finrod was saying AT ALL in context. Finrod is not saying turn into a rock and sink into the water. He is saying sometimes there is no substitute for experience for you to find the right path.

And it is interesting, because Galadriel is able to deduce Sauron is evil by looking at their reflection in the dark ocean waters, that showed Sauron's true intent, to be crowned Morgoth's replacement. Sauron is not light. Sauron is the reflection of the light that will drown you and sink you like a stone thrown in the water. He appears fair but is foul.

And sometimes you cannot realize who Sauron is in his fair form until you encounter him because he is indistinguishable from the light in his lies until you feel the splash, and you are in danger of drowning. Touching the darkness does not mean staying in the darkness. That turns you into a stone that will always drown.

So i'm doing some research for some rings of power meta i'm writing*, and holy shit I never realized how much of an unoriginal idiot (affectionate) Sauron is. His speech to the orcs at Forodwaith is like almost word for word exactly what he told Galadriel in the vision in 1x08. Like, my dear sweet beloved boy, they killed you for saying it the first time, what compelled you to say it again? I guess this time you could at least drown her in a creek instead of letting adar to stab you with Morgoth's crown.

But yeah, here is:

Sauron's brilliant 5 step plan to getting allies step 0: remind everyone morgoth is gone. (and how alone this makes you feel. 😢) step 1: tell them you want to heal middle earth. step 2: tell them we shall rule middle earth together and they will be worshipped. step 3: they tell you you are a liar, because you are. step 4: inform them that they have no choice bc everyone else hates them b/c they have Sauron cooties already. The elves will never accept you, they banish you, men will think you are gross and stinky and brought Sauron back, he is the only one who will ever care for you, typical isolation abuser tactics. step 5: then they try to kill you, because of course they will.

At least he changed it up with Celebrimbor. He realized you needed to successfully isolate the victim for this to work. You can't let them have friends like Elrond and Adar to bail them out.

So this could be a wholesale lie, and Sauron just heard about Celebrimbor in general.

But, I'd like to think Halbrand speaks with a kernel of truth. And like, sure Celebrimbor came over to Middle earth, but he wasn't involved in the shenanigans with the Silmarils. He wasn't actively attacking Morgoth and Sauron in the first age. He was minding his own business. So like, I'm sure he had a general reputation, but I'm not sure why the mastery of his craft would have reached the ears of Angband in the first age.

But like... Melkor talked with Feanor in Valinor. He might have met his sons, and his grandson, or at least heard of them. He would have known of Celebrimbor's craft -- I'm sure Feanor would have bragged about it, if only to annoy Melkor.

so i reblogged this post yesterday and it reminded me of the complete mindfuck i still have with a part of the Trop fandom to this day (I am not saying [all g/s shippers] because no group is a monolith i'm not even saying most... if this doesn't apply to you i'm not talking about you)

when i saw this scene of 1x08, i remember how thrilling this moment was.

the mask dropped, the previously funny, gregarious, and impulsive halbrand is suddenly this cold, unfeeling, calculating demigod.

And like i knew since like the second episode he was present that he was sauron. it wasn't a surprise. but yet, the mask drop was so perfect.

but i was deep in star trek at the time, and didn't really engage in the fandom. but i assumed when people liked this ship, this is what they meant, that they loved this deception and turn and betrayal.

and then i come here after season 2, and realize how many people see this scene not as a mask drop, but as Sauron honestly infatuated Galadriel, not him manipulating her to his side every step of the way, of him being honest and sincere...

Like, this dynamic was so awesome. And then we get to see it AGAIN with Celebrimbor, with Mirdania. We get to see what would happen if Galadriel had said yes, with Mirdania being his assistant and then unceremoniously being tossed off a parapet, and we get to see what would happen if she had realized too late instead of now with Celebrimbor (and with show confirmation of the parallel between Galadriel and Celebrimbor given by a heart to heart between two characters). And we get to see the mask drop over and over except from the other side... And it is different and good every time it happens. And how we know it will happen again and it will get worse and darker each time, as he starts targeting humans with less resistance to his magic.

And then I come here and so many people don't even see how awesome this parallel is. how great the mask drop is. How critical it was that Galadriel became suspicious early on or else all would have been lost. That someone thinks this is a romantic confession instead of the culmination of a deceptive seduction that fails because of Galadriel's perceptiveness and righteous anger.

(and even how Sauron himself was deceiving even himself... something we see again with Celebrimbor)

Was just reading this post by @minubell and it just occurs to me that maybe Sauron's magic does quite work with dwarves because they are of Aüle and the magic is additive instead of disruptive.

i will admit my theology nerd brain is always confused when people use the word redeem for fictional characters. At least Tolkien's world is Catholic enough in character for the usage to make sense but they seem to muddle up the word. But like, in general, fictional characters operate by whatever rules the author wanted them to operate, anything is possible. To me, in a theological concept of redemption is articulated in the etymology of the word: someone is paying your ransom. I.e. Theologically, someone paid the price to rescue you from hell, from prison, etc. And in Christianity, Jesus paid that price for everyone. You just need to choose to follow God. The conflation between "being good" and "redemption" is because "following god" is EQUIVALENT to "being good" -- if you are good you are theologically following God (even if you don't know it) because Good is the way God ordered the world. (not saying this is what i believe, this is just common Christian doctrine). But like, i don't need to know whether a character is going to heaven to decide they are on the good or bad team of the story. I don't need to know their final destination or karmic balance to understand the role they play in a story. For me, if you are using the word "redeem" in a Tolkien context, you are using it to refer to the relationship between Eru Iluvatar and the characters, *maybe* Mandos or Manwë. It is not the word i would use for the individual relationship between characters. In the sense that Eru mirrors the Christian/Catholic God, all that is required to be right with them is to do what they say. Additionally, there is the relationship between any two people. You can ask someone for forgiveness, and they can forgive you -- they can ask for conditions on that, or no conditions, that is really up to them. You can offer reparation for some bad deeds, but also some things that are broken can never be fixed. That is the whole point of Christ's redeeming work -- there is no way to pay for the brokenness of the universe, only God can fix it. In Tolkien terms, only Eru can turn Arda Marred to Arda Healed. In this theology, basically, God pays for the Karmic balance of each person, because the impossibility of paying it off. But like, individuals forgiving each other is separate from "are you considered a good person by the rules of the universe". And like, even in the real world, people are not required to forgive you for you to choose to become a good person. In fact, it is quite normal for your victims to never forgive you. But choosing to do good, from here on out? that is a choice that applies to the future. And that the victims don't forgive them doesn't affect whether the reader is supposed to see them as a good character, or what "team" the character is on now.

In the show, he dies protecting the Nine. But hours later, Sauron ends up with the Nine anyway, which makes Celebrimbor's sacrifice feel...not hollow...but futile.

On the other hand, in the book, he dies protecting the Three. And Sauron *never* gets his hands on the Three, in large part because of Celebrimbor's bravery and determination. It makes Celebrimbor's sacrifice feel all the more triumphant and crucial, in that he actively thwarted Sauron from gaining even more power and influence than he already had.