satanism is so funny it's like ooh I hate Christianity soooo much I'm not going to step outside of it or learn about other religions cuz it's the only religion I care about at all so I'm still going to base my thing around Christianity I'm just gonna be a hardcore contrarian about it
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Some mildly annoying people think that the best way to engage with media that has problematic aspects is to pretend that they can fanon their way out of the original text having those aspects instead of actually thinking about why the original text was like that. But on the other hand, some absolutely repugnant people will read any critical reading of a piece of media as a declaration of war and loudly and proudly state that you the person doing the critical reading probably think they're evil for liking the media. So like, as annoying as the people in the former group can be, they at least don't usually do a Hitler transformation sequence upon getting a whiff of critical thought.
whenever the conversation about difficulty and accessibility in games come up i want to slam my head into a wall because noone thats speaking has anything more than a surface level understanding of what "difficulty" even is
your game should have accessibility options, but if your only accessibility options are "turn off central game mechanics" then you have made shit accessibility options.
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I don’t know what’s more detrimental to the health of TTRPGs as a medium, D&D5e players who think that TTRPGs are “collaborative storytelling” and that D&D5e does this great if you just ignore all the rules that make it not do that, or non-D&D players who realize that no edition of D&D5e is good for “collaborative storytelling” but still think that the primary purpose of all TTRPGs is to be “collaborative storytelling” and that not being good for “collaborative storytelling” a satisfying narrative is what makes D&D bad. D&D5e is bad for other reasons but you’re complaining that a cheap toothbrush doesn’t keep you warm at night.
An expectation is being placed on all pieces in this artform to do something that the majority of them were never meant to do in the first place.
I've only played solo journaling RPGs with the exception of video solo RPGs so apologies in advance. From what I understood from people who play D&D is that it's a flexible game. While I haven't played D&D so I don't know how different it may be from what I had in mind, if a game is flexible enough with rules defined per playing group (?), wouldn't it make sense that some groups believe collaborative storytelling to be a primary purpsoe? Or is the 5th edition meant to be something different?
Thank you for asking in good faith. There is a whole lot of WotC D&D5e marketing propaganda to scrape away at here so bear with me. It’s a two-part answer, and both parts are long and require a lot of context.
Part 1: Marketing, and How Hasbro Sells You Your GM's/Your Own Labor
D&D5e’s flexibility is a marketing lie. The only people who think D&D5e is relatively flexible are people who have little to no experience with any other TTRPGs besides D&D5e (and sometimes Pathfinder). It is in fact a very specific game (as the vast majority of TTRPGs are). Its rules adjudicate high fantasy heroic warriors and wizards with swords and spells engaging in tactical battles with monsters in a high fantasy world of some kind and becoming stronger and better at battling by doing so. That’s the only kind of game D&D5e can support. This premise is of course somewhat flexible in that it can support high fantasy battles in a variety of contexts with a variety of different types of warriors and wizards and for a variety of different reasons, but as soon as the occupations of the characters in your campaign do not primarily consist of high fantasy battles and preparation for more high fantasy battles, D&D5e is no-longer supporting it. In fact, D&D5e will quickly start to hinder it, at great strain to the GM.
As you can see, D&D5e is actually quite narrow in what campaigns and/or “stories” it supports. This narrowness/specificness is not, however, what makes D&D5e a bad game. Tons of very good TTRPGs are just as narrow or even more narrow. The people who force D&D5e to “flex” despite its relative inflexibility are doing so with a great deal of unnecessary effort, particularly on the GM side of things. This effort is unnecessary because for any given campaign/adventure premise, there are likely dozens of other TTRPGs which are either laserfocused on supporting that exact premise, or something much closer to it such that it takes less effort to “flex” them into it.
Despite it being difficult and unnecessary, they keep straining themselves to bend D&D5e into shapes it was never meant to be (and holds badly) because they don’t know any better. This is where the WotC/Hasbro marketing comes in. There is this marketing tactic called a “walled garden” that basically only monopolies with money to burn can pull off. Rather than competing with your competitors to have the better product, or even just hype up your product, to attract more customers, you build an enclosed ecosystem for your customers by obscuring their view of your competitors’ products entirely. With no frame of reference for what your competitors’ products are actually like, customers will have no reason to be skeptical of anything you say or imply about your product or your competitors’.
D&D5e is actually very narrow, very poorly designed (but again, narrowness is not an element of this poor design), not simple, and not beginner-friendly at all. But WotC’s marketing machine says it is extremely flexible, well-designed, simple, and beginner-friendly. In conjunction with the walled garden, WotC’s customers hear that and think “if a ‘simple,’ ‘beginner-friendly’ TTRPG is this complicated and hard to learn (not to mention expensive), I don’t even wanna know what a complex and advanced TTRPG looks like!” This makes them scared of other TTRPGs without ever having seen them, and makes them very unwilling to step foot outside the walled garden and see for themselves. (This is also somewhat relatable to how the US government keeps US citizens perpetually afraid of foreign nations and alternative economic frameworks, and how cults and abusers keep their victims from just walking out on them.)
“D&D5e/TTRPGs can be whatever you want them to be” is a marketing slogan for WotC and Hasbro, meant to tell you that the TTRPG you pick for your campaign doesn’t matter at all, so why not just settle for the one you’ve seen marketed the most? This is how WotC and Hasbro keep D&D5e players perpetually overpaying for undercooked products or, at the very least even if they pirate all their D&D5e books, not supporting any of the competitors. This facade is propped up by the unpaid labor of hundreds of thousands of overworked GMs, who are the ones tasked by the wretched and insidious “Rule 0” with painstakingly bending D&D5e into all these different crude shapes (that another game would hold better) for the convenience of players.
That last part especially is where the cult comparison comes in. Those who do want to explore the world outside the cult and/or have seen through the lies are often trapped there still by their only relationships being within the cult. If they leave the cult, they can only do so by cutting all of their relationships and support networks off and entering the wider world with nothing. It’s a little less dramatic than that in the context of D&D5e of course, they aren’t literally losing their friends entirely, but they often are losing their gaming group, A.K.A. the big social activity they do with their friends. It is beyond count how many times I have heard someone say “I want to try out other TTRPGs, but my group only wants to do D&D5e because they think learning another game is too hard and also pointless because they think ‘TTRPGs can be whatever you want them to be’.” They try and try, but are eventually worn down until they go “Alright fine we can do a cozy farming game about reconciling with your past trauma in D&D5e. Roll Strength to pull up the carrots, I guess..” Dozens, possibly hundreds, reading this very post will be able to testify to being in this exact situation (and I urge you to do so in the tags or reblog comments).
(Also much like abuse victims and people who grew up in insular cults, many who do leave have great difficulty adjusting to the normal world, because they only know how to behave in the context of the bad situation they just left. This often manifests in TTRPGs as GMs reflexively trying to “fix” the rules of games that are actually well designed and don’t need to be fixed - or, topically, trying to squeeze “collaborative storytelling” out of games that were not meant to support such a thing, because WotC/Hasbro marketing taught them that when D&D5e doesn’t natively give you what you and your group want, it’s your fault because “a good GM could make it work.” The difficulties these maladapted behaviors result in even often lead them to giving up and returning to their bad situations.)
To summarize thus far, WotC/Hasbro marketing obscures other TTRPGs from the vast majority of TTRPG players, which allows them to imply those TTRPGs are not worth exploring by projecting the flaws of their own product onto the imagined conception of the competitors’ products. WotC/Hasbro tells players “TTRPGs are whatever you want them to be” to make their product, the design of which only supports one thing, appeal to customers who want many different things. They keep these customers they’ve lied to by encouraging GMs to do free labor contorting and rebuilding D&D5e on the fly to keep up the illusion as long as possible. People within these spaces who don’t buy into this illusion are shunned and only given the choice between continuing to prop up the lie or abandoning their social activities. People within these spaces who do buy into the illusion are liable to get very defensive-aggressive when the walls of the garden are shaken.
Part 2: “Collaborative Storytelling”
I described way up at the top of this comment that D&D5e has rules that basically only support fantasy warriors and wizards doing battles and getting stronger so they can do more battles. This is not inherently a bad thing, there are many good TTRPGs that support nothing but this same thing. (What makes D&D5e bad as a game is that it does its core premise very poorly. What makes it bad as a cultural force is how its dishonest marketing is choking and killing the industry and culture of TTRPGs.)
The other thing about D&D5e’s design that are important about this discussion is that it is s very “traditional” TTRPG, and thus very much built by the way its rules interact with each other to be a “challenge game.” A “challenge game” in this context is a game that challenges the cleverness and skill of both player and PC alike. The PC must overcome obstacles in their path through their cleverness and skill, and the player must use their cleverness and in-depth understanding of the rules to build a PC who can overcome those challenges and play them accordingly. If either is not up to the challenge, they fail, often with severe consequences to the PC. In video game terms, it is possible to get a “game over” when playing this type of game.
Where this becomes a "problem" is that challenge games are typically very, very bad at producing conventionally satisfying narratives and character arcs through the default gameplay that their rules support, which is one of the main points of the original post. When people say they want/like “collaborative storytelling,” they are almost always referring to a desire for conventionally satisfying narratives and character arcs.
And if this structure of game is bad at “collaborative storytelling” a conventionally satisfying story, and the point of TTRPGs as an artform is “collaborative storytelling,” then “challenge games” must be bad TTRPGs, right? Well, wrong; but that attitude is what the original post is criticizing.
They are calling a game bad because it fails to do something its rules were never written to support in the first place. D&D5e is lazily designed, but by calling it bad for failure to accomplish something that it was never built to do in the first place, they are completely writing off hundreds of much more effortfully and intentionally designed games which also fail at “collaboratively storytelling” a conventionally satisfying story because they were never meant to. This, indirectly, also only helps WotC and hurts smaller studios and designers, as well as closing the players off to experiences they might end up actually really enjoying.
The reality is “collaborative storytelling” a conventionally satisfying story with a plot and character arcs is not the only reason to play TTRPGs. Like many other artistic mediums, different TTRPGs have different experiences they are trying to present to the audience, and if the audience goes in expecting one and gets another, they will typically not enjoy the experience. It is only in TTRPGs however (due largely to the deceptive marketing described in Part 1) that there is such a pervasive acceptance of going to works within the artform expecting something they were never meant to be, and, instead of going and finding another one that actually is what you want, pushing forward stubbornly, as if trying to squeeze a novel full of twists and turns out of a math textbook.
Playing a challenge game expecting a conventionally satisfying narrative and character arcs will leave you frustrated and disappointed (unless of course the insidious “Rule 0” puts a gun to your GM’s head or brainwashes them and makes them take on the work of pulling thousands of strings behind the scenes to contort the game in real time so that that frustration never touches the players, only them). Likewise, if you play “story games” or similarly structured TTRPGs expecting a challenge, you will be frustrated and disappointed. Even if you put in the effort to "make it work," your experience with the result is significantly worsened and hindered compared to what the experience would be if you had just played a TTRPG that was built from the ground up to give that experience rather than trying to mod the game into something it's not. And here is a link to a post you (general "you," not specifically the person I am replying to, I mean anyone reading this) can click if you interpret the above passages as me saying "nothing should ever be homebrewed ever."
Part 3: I'm Kinda Just Rambling Now
I love “challenge games,” and many others do to, both for the in-the-moment thrill of them and for the unique (not usually conventionally satisfying) stories they produce as a secondary byproduct.
All TTRPGs (that I can think of) produce some kind of story as a byproduct of gameplay. Hell, most games in general do. However, just because it may produce it doesn’t mean the story is the primary purpose. It is the primary purpose of some games, but not others.
Actually I was going to go on, but I remembered I already said what I was about to say much better in a previous thread on this same post, so I am just going to link that here instead. This will explain different purposes I’m talking about.
💬 30 🔁 388 ❤️ 524 · Post by @anim-ttrpgs · 2 images · Yes, TTRPGs are mechanics-driven games, even the ones where the mechanics are actual
I pretty much agree with all of this, and want to add that in discussions I've seen where people claim "5E can be adapted to anything!" once you drill down, what they mean when they say "5E" is "the mechanic of rolling a d20 against a target number, with advantage or disadvantage if the situation warrants."
And, sure, "rolling a die" is indeed a very flexible mechanic that can be applied to a lot of situations, but of course there is a lot more to the D&D5E rules than that, and it's telling that these people have apparently played 5E before and the only rule they've managed to grasp is how to make a skill roll.
I know this is due to my particular constellation of interests, but for me the funniest thing about the "everything in a given century happened simultaneously" view of history being applied to the 1900s is bumping into increasing numbers of people who are genuinely unclear on whether Dungeons & Dragons pre-dates or post-dates The Lord of the Rings.
american blackbirds are icterids but european blackbirds are thrushes but american robins are thrushes but european robins are flycatchers and they are named robin because (checks notes) brits in the 1400s called them "robert" on account of they are just some familiar guy who shows up in your yard. hold on post canceled is that really why they are called that? what the fuck. they did this with jackdaws and magpies too? i can't even be annoyed. how human. "who's that? that's bob." fuck dude it sure is.
efforts towards a "positive vision of masculinity" or whatever are so funny because what these guys are trying to figure out is literally "what's a way of being a good person that's Not For Girls™"
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one time a guy friend told me he was quitting league of legends and literally two weeks later she was on estrogen. these events are intrinsically connected in my mind.
"When we were doing that interview with the Eureka developers and they made this allusion to the idea that the best system to run Call of Cthuhlu adventures in is Eureka: Investigative Urban Fantasy, uh, I agree with them now! And that's a bad sign when comparing a game which is seven editions deep into its design versus a game that is still in its public beta. Really, I think the core failure here is Call of Cthuhlu is a game that wants its adventures to be investigations into the supernatural and there is no systemic support for investigating."
-@tinytablepodcast
Smallest Salutations! Call of Cthulhu has died... and it's time for us to dissect it’s wriggling corpse! We’ve got some hot takes regarding
CoC works and it'll always be a staple to me, but I also feel like it's simple and complex in the wrong places (you don't need that many skills seriously) I actually prefer cthulhu hack even though it doesn't really have deep investigation mechanics either, and it's mainly because it manages to remain simple while keeping the core aspects of what makes it a cthulhu game (i.e. the characters feel like regular everyday people instead of fantasy superheroes (unless you want to) and there are mental health mechanics)
It's funny you say that, because those are some of the exact things Eureka is incredible at, while also having strong investigation mechanics that actually encourage engaging with the mystery directly.
Where Call of Cthulhu 7e has 46 skills, which I agree is an absurd mount, Eureka only has 21. For reference, DnD 5e has 18.
Eureka's skills are all distinct enough to not get confused with each other, too; there's no having to differentiate whether your character is trying to use First Aid or Medicine, it's just a Medicine skill in Eureka, which is for anything relating to medicine, like patching up a wound, assessing a corpse, determining what kind of drug a pill is, etc. It's never difficult to determine what skill to use in Eureka.
This is part of what actually equips Eureka characters to investigate; every skill in Eureka has both investigative and non-investigative applications which actually gears the character to be able to uncover clues with the skills of a mundane individual; the Driving skill can be used to drive fast and reckless, or it can be used to identify the make and model of a vehicle. Technology might be used to search the internet for information about a suspect's social media account, or to tell if a water heater is working properly. Firearms can be used to fire a gun as well as determine the caliber of a bullet from the size of the exit wound alone. There is not a single useless skill in Eureka.
A +3 in a skill is considered the best a normal human can achieve. One of my favorite characters I've played, who is just a girl with anxiety, absolutely nothing fantastical, has no skills at +3, but has achieved plenty of incredible things that the more fantastical character she's working with really couldn't.
Failing a roll gives more Investigation Points than succeeding, which can be used to retroactively succeed on previously failed investigative rolls (a Eureka! moment) or to increase the likelihood of victory on a non-investigative roll. Characters with more unique Traits or supernatural Traits need more Investigation Points to do that, giving an edge to more normal, mundane characters.
That might sound complicated, but it really isn't; like any ttrpg, the main gameplay consists of the narrator describing the room, investigators poking around and players asking questions and rolling. It's incredibly smooth in practice and utilizes the format of ttrpgs to great use to create the feeling of investigators investigating.
As for how good mundane investigators are, let me take a second to talk about my favorite investigator I've played, Gwen Wilson.
Gwen is a normal woman; she's anxious, nervous, shy, she's a people-pleaser and has been called a doormat more than once. The closest thing to an incredible skill that she has is a little familiarity with computer programming.
But that people-pleasing gets her places; people are more willing to talk with and be friendly to her than the other investigators, and that helps her get information from them. She's the only one of the three investigators who has gotten into a person's hotel room without using a lock-pick and committing a crime; just politely asking to be let in. she's able to break up fights and de-escalate situations; at one point, she stopped one of her fellow investigators from getting into a fist-fight with someone else, a fight which that investigator certainly would have lost, because she is just a normal 17-year-old girl.
As for 'mental health mechanics', which in games like Call of Cthulhu are fraught with so many dubious ideas of what 'sanity' is, Eureka actually does a good job depicting this sort of genre trope in the form of Composure.
Investigators have a list of fears which the player chooses to place from -3 (horrific) to +3 (ridiculous). When investigators encounter these fears, they roll with a modifier relevant to how much they fear that thing. One investigator might be Horrified of corpses, and will likely lose lots of Composure upon seeing one, while another might simply find it Creepy, and is less likely to lose Composure at all when staring at a dead body.
Investigators will also lose composure from skipping meals and sleep, though they also restore composure by eating three meals a day and getting a full eight hours of sleep. Food costs money, and thus requires a Wealth roll, and skipping sleep can be incredibly useful for buying more time and doing things late at night. There are traits that make investigators more wealthy but reduce other skills, and a trait which reduces the consequences of skipping sleep severely at the cost of never restoring Composure from a good night's sleep.
Investigators can also use the Comfort skill to restore each others' Composure, but not on their self (unless they have the Trait for it, and even then, a -1 Penalty is inflicted.) This isn't an armchair psychologist skill, it's more patting-on-the-back, pep-talk and a hug; an investigator doesn't need to specialize in it to be particularly good at it.
What's important about Composure compared to other games is that it isn't a nebulous 'Sanity'; your character doesn't become a 'gibbering fool' when they hit 0 Composure, they're a stressed person being pushed passed their limit, and that stress will start taking a physical toll on them, though rarely enough to outright kill them from stress alone.
Despite this, players are still encouraged to role-play their character as more stressed at lower Composure, meaning an investigator might do something more reckless and brash than they would at higher Composure. Being at low Composure can actually be a useful tool as well as a horrible detriment the investigators want to avoid.
Over all, Eureka is incredible at what it does without being too complex, encapsulating the genres of detective, noir, urban fantasy, and horror significantly better than Call of Cthulhu.
Player of the normal 17-year-old girl here! Really there isn't much I can say that hasn't already been more eloquently said by my fellow player above, but Eureka! really is a very solid game for making fully Normal people (or man-eating werewolves, if that's what you're into). The first character I played was a 49 year old trucker who just wanted some shitty coffee and a meal from somewhere that wasn't a goddamn IHop, and it was great! She fit right in and ended up being crucial to solving the mystery at hand. The system really emphasizes creating grounded and realistic characters (both mundane and supernatural) in a way I don't usually see from other systems. I find myself constantly surprised and impressed by the range and creativity I see from people bringing fully normal characters to the table.
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A lot of people treat it like a joke or straight up get defensive about it but most world building flaws literally come from the author having a very US/Europe centric view of the world.
This isn't just "think about where the potatoes and coffee come from in your world". This is also about fantasy worlds set in Earth too. The way JK Rowling designed her world so that England has it's own school but has Latin America, Africa and Asia share one school each is heavily influenced by her english centric view of the world around her. Or how she never took two seconds to think about how magic works in different cultures, or how she never explains why the indigenous communities of America didn't fight back against colonizers using magic, or how she decided that european colonizers "civilized" African wizards by teaching them how to use wands. Her way of seeing the rest of the world and obvious rejection to educating herself about other countries influences her world building.
The same happens with Rick Riordan. His entire magical world (which primarily deals with the GREEK gods) revolves solely around the United States. And the reason he gives is literally just "the US is the most important country currently so that's where the gods went". Camp Half-blood is literally located in NEW YORK. Demi gods from other countries are never explored or even mentioned in anyway whatsoever. The wide spread usamerican belief that they are the most important country in the world heavily influences how Rick Riordan (and most usamerican writers) do world building.
fascinating that when you tell people "you have to learn the rules to break them" when talking about drawing/painting etc everyone nods and agrees but the second you say "you have to read books if you want to write better" there's a horde of contrarians begging to be the wrongest people ever all of a sudden
"well what if I have a disability that makes it hard for me to read"
then it will be harder for you to improve your writing. disabilities have a way of making the things we want to do harder, that's kind of fundamental to the concept. there are some suggestions in the notes on how to work around that but it does mean extra work, there's not a magic solution whereby you can avoid reading altogether and still get better at writing.
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