rsadelle

So I finished rewatching Dept. Q and promptly started over again. In episode 7, Carl tells Jasper that he has to be two people to deal with the stuff he does. Then he says, "You can't go through what you did without it stirring things up," and tells Jasper that they're now in a club of people who know that things can change in an instant:

Carl: You have to go to the meetings, you have speak to the other members of the club, so you know you're not the only one out there who's thinking and feeling the shit that you're thinking and feeling. Jasper: What, so like, you and Hardy? Carl: Yeah, like me and Hardy. And now me and you.

Then when I looped back to episode 1, what caught my attention is that when Carl goes to see Hardy after Hardy has tried to jump out the window, Carl says, "We'll figure it out, okay? Like we always do together. I promise." And then Donna and the Hardy kids come in, and you can see both Carl and Hardy compartmentalize and lock down all the serious stuff under acting cheerful for Donna and the kids.

I am fascinated by this! Does this mean Carl and Hardy actually talk about their feelings and that's part of how they compartmentalize their jobs from their families? Is Carl not talking about how he feels with Hardy because Hardy is worse off after the shooting than he is and Carl thinks it's his fault? And is that lack of his usual support part of why he's such a mess?

That scene. When we see Hardy's still pleading look to Carl even when surrounded by his family.

Their relationship before the shooting seems to consist of banter about football, etc. I can't imagine that they talk about FEELINGS. Would be good to see them have a heart to heart about what happened on that day but I don't think we should hold our breath on that one .

gettingbyi

To me, their relationship is the most touching of them all (even though Carl & Jasper's r/s is a close second). The way they both build each other back, Hardy giving Carl shit to actually cheer him up (there is amazing smile from Carl in a later scene, and I don't think we see such a genuine one in any other scene), and Carl giving back Hardy a new purpose by including him in their investigation... Their link is so strong already at the beginning of the show (Carl is the one ON CALL for the hospital!!! Not Donna, apparently. Carl!) that it's impossible to ignore.

And this scene brings me to tears every single time... (thank you prev for adding it!).

Despite their relationship being played in a very typical way for males their age, I could see them talk about feelings after a few beers, when they need to vent/exorcise the worst of a hard case to be able to compartmentalise once at home, or when the Vic disaster happened to Carl... Hardy probably went through bad shit too, even if it's not mentioned.

It's probably tamed off in the show because the imbalance in their situation is terrible. Carl probably feels terribly guilty; Hardy is very much depressed and maybe his way of dealing with it is to shut down. Also, trying to be very silent to avoid saying hurtful things because he's a bit resentful? These are hard feelings to talk about. Like prev, I don't think we will see them sharing feelings about THIS situation specifically... but maybe they'll go back to their previous banter with an even stronger bond. They've been through a terrible trauma together and they have been able to get back from hell together... Of course it'll be stronger.

Yes, that "talk about feelings after a few beers" is the kind of thing I was thinking about. I don't know that they're having deliberate conversations about FEELINGS, but I can definitely see them saying, "That'll give you nightmares," in a joking-not-joking way about something terrible they saw.

I second your thanks to @pleasereadmeok for putting that scene into this, because, yes, so many feelings about it! That first picture of Carl, that's the most carefree he looks in the entire first season, and I think it's genuine. And then it turns out to be a serious thing and he goes with that too.

I think this whole scene, plus what Carl tells Jasper later, suggests that Carl and Hardy are the only people who know each other fully, that they compartmentalize all the things they see in their job away from their families, but they're in it together, they understand each other, they can talk about both parts of their lives together.

And then my question is: what happens to that dynamic when you add in Akram who (a) becomes a DI (Hardy's rank) and (b) is the one out in the field with Carl?

fanfictiongreenirises

i've been thinking about this a fair bit while rewatching! i think it's a bit binary to think about relationships as either 'openly talking about feelings (a la supernatural's 'boy melodrama' scenes)' or 'completely clammed up'. the way i interpreted the 'you have speak to the other members of the club' speech is that he only phrased it like that because jasper's a kid and this would be the easiest way for jasper to understand. i think this also touches (narratively) on the conversation they had earlier in the show where jasper wants for their relationship to be 'like in the military' and carl says that he's jasper's commanding officer (this is incredibly paraphrased) - now, even though the power dynamic of their relationship as parent-child is still there, carl wants to put them on even ground in order for jasper to feel like he can talk to carl openly and carl will listen.

(as a side note, that wording always makes me think of alcoholics anonymous and other similar support groups, and i wonder if carl is familiar with them to use this kind of example? i find it says so much about his character and the support systems he prefers or is accustomed to, because i feel like typically one would bring up therapy/counseling, particularly for children, even if they might not necessarily believe in it themselves)

i tangented wildly there, so going back to carl and hardy! i feel that the other reason carl would phrase the 'meetings' in such a formal way is that he would need to sit and make time to properly talk with jasper, because when it comes to him and hardy, they surely spent more time together than either of them did with their families, and the types of conversations you can have with someone when you're around then for most of the day, most of the week, for years, is incredibly different. they basically get a play-by-play of your life, things that you wouldn't tell people you're catching up with weekly because you forget about it or it's too small. (think about the friends who have been there during shitty school years who know things about your parents that people who came later won't know, bc it was too small to mention when you talk about the bigger events; think about what siblings who go through the same questionable parenting know about what you both went through. you don't always have to talk about it to know how it's affecting them, but you're allowed to joke about it and sometimes you know why they react to things the way they do, or at least that they're having a hard time coping)

combined with carl and hardy's line of work, it would also mean that in order for them to not only survive but thrive as a partnership, they need to know what the other is thinking and how their brain works. they experience the same kind of trauma, they undoubtedly bitch about the issues they're having at home whether it's as small as someone leaving toothpaste in the sink or an impending divorce, and they learn about the other in those minuscule ways. towards the end of ep 1, carl is venting in hardy's hospital room in his 'you want to kill yourself; i want to kill everyone else' speech, which i think is one of the most open he is in this series - it says so much that he's unloading everything to hardy, from getting dumped with a new department, to issues with jasper and hardy being suicidal. he admits i don't know what to do and something within all of this makes hardy actually properly tune in for possibly the first time, maybe because he sees that carl is struggling and reaching out to him and that gets through in a way that other things don't.

(and i feel that says so much? he has two young kids and a wife, who need him in their life, but i think the way that carl needs him is always going to be very different to how his family unit do - there's probably a part of both of their minds that associates the other needing their support as the other being in danger, needing backup, as the other being so important bc the work they do is important and they wouldn't be reaching out if it wasn't like life or death, and their partnership is so ingrained in both of them that they're compelled to respond)

last thing before i end this massive word dump, because of the delightful thought nugget around akram: i find it super fascinating that akram is a widowed single father, somewhat paralleling carl's current home situation, whereas hardy was undoubtedly similar to his life before being shot and before the divorce (happily married, kids). you can interpret this as slash or gen, but i love thinking about diverged paths and it's fun to think of akram as the partner carl needs now specifically because of the way his life has ended up (divorce, shooting), and i'm really interested to see how the show explores the dynamic between the three of them

Ooh, interesting to see that as a specific framing for Jasper. (I also had the thought that it sounded like support group language, which is so interesting from a character who is so resistant to therapy.) When Carl sits down and says, "I am here. I am listening. Promise," that is absolutely a specific callback to Jasper telling him he can't talk to him (via the song he plays for Carl), so it makes sense that the whole thing is too.

Yes to all of your thoughts about Carl and Hardy! It's all so good and so interesting.

Ooh, I hadn't even gotten to thinking that deeply about how Carl's life was more like Hardy's and is now more like Akram's. That would be an amazing point of relationship negotiation (uh, I don't mean that in a formal way, just in a figuring out what things are like for them now way). And on the third side of that triangle, Akram's kids are closer in age to Hardy's kids, where Jasper is several years older.

(Also, never apologize for adding on to my posts - I am from an earlier time in fandom, and long back and forths are my jam.)

Tags from @asmuchasidliketo: Carl and Hardy are very close friends who went through shit together Even before the shooting Each of them is probably the only person the other can tell *everything* to Hardy has Donna but I don't think he tells her everything he sees He must want to protect her like Carl does for Jasper (and did for Vic) There's a massive amount of trust AND some serious amount of dependence (not codependency) Especially for Carl who has no other social “crutch” If he loses Hardy he loses his only “easy” social link - just see how he reacts when he thinks Hardy is dead Adding Akram to the equation will probably be very interesting even outside of a romantic dynamic

Yes, exactly! I'm so fascinated by it.

kingofthepitt

[hour ten] the pitt s2e10

#the pitt

So I finished rewatching Dept. Q and promptly started over again. In episode 7, Carl tells Jasper that he has to be two people to deal with the stuff he does. Then he says, "You can't go through what you did without it stirring things up," and tells Jasper that they're now in a club of people who know that things can change in an instant:

Carl: You have to go to the meetings, you have speak to the other members of the club, so you know you're not the only one out there who's thinking and feeling the shit that you're thinking and feeling. Jasper: What, so like, you and Hardy? Carl: Yeah, like me and Hardy. And now me and you.

Then when I looped back to episode 1, what caught my attention is that when Carl goes to see Hardy after Hardy has tried to jump out the window, Carl says, "We'll figure it out, okay? Like we always do together. I promise." And then Donna and the Hardy kids come in, and you can see both Carl and Hardy compartmentalize and lock down all the serious stuff under acting cheerful for Donna and the kids.

I am fascinated by this! Does this mean Carl and Hardy actually talk about their feelings and that's part of how they compartmentalize their jobs from their families? Is Carl not talking about how he feels with Hardy because Hardy is worse off after the shooting than he is and Carl thinks it's his fault? And is that lack of his usual support part of why he's such a mess?

That scene. When we see Hardy's still pleading look to Carl even when surrounded by his family.

Their relationship before the shooting seems to consist of banter about football, etc. I can't imagine that they talk about FEELINGS. Would be good to see them have a heart to heart about what happened on that day but I don't think we should hold our breath on that one .

gettingbyi

To me, their relationship is the most touching of them all (even though Carl & Jasper's r/s is a close second). The way they both build each other back, Hardy giving Carl shit to actually cheer him up (there is amazing smile from Carl in a later scene, and I don't think we see such a genuine one in any other scene), and Carl giving back Hardy a new purpose by including him in their investigation... Their link is so strong already at the beginning of the show (Carl is the one ON CALL for the hospital!!! Not Donna, apparently. Carl!) that it's impossible to ignore.

And this scene brings me to tears every single time... (thank you prev for adding it!).

Despite their relationship being played in a very typical way for males their age, I could see them talk about feelings after a few beers, when they need to vent/exorcise the worst of a hard case to be able to compartmentalise once at home, or when the Vic disaster happened to Carl... Hardy probably went through bad shit too, even if it's not mentioned.

It's probably tamed off in the show because the imbalance in their situation is terrible. Carl probably feels terribly guilty; Hardy is very much depressed and maybe his way of dealing with it is to shut down. Also, trying to be very silent to avoid saying hurtful things because he's a bit resentful? These are hard feelings to talk about. Like prev, I don't think we will see them sharing feelings about THIS situation specifically... but maybe they'll go back to their previous banter with an even stronger bond. They've been through a terrible trauma together and they have been able to get back from hell together... Of course it'll be stronger.

Yes, that "talk about feelings after a few beers" is the kind of thing I was thinking about. I don't know that they're having deliberate conversations about FEELINGS, but I can definitely see them saying, "That'll give you nightmares," in a joking-not-joking way about something terrible they saw.

I second your thanks to @pleasereadmeok for putting that scene into this, because, yes, so many feelings about it! That first picture of Carl, that's the most carefree he looks in the entire first season, and I think it's genuine. And then it turns out to be a serious thing and he goes with that too.

I think this whole scene, plus what Carl tells Jasper later, suggests that Carl and Hardy are the only people who know each other fully, that they compartmentalize all the things they see in their job away from their families, but they're in it together, they understand each other, they can talk about both parts of their lives together.

And then my question is: what happens to that dynamic when you add in Akram who (a) becomes a DI (Hardy's rank) and (b) is the one out in the field with Carl?

I watched Dept. Q two weeks ago, and now I'm rewatching it for Reasons (but fast forwarding past all the Merritt torture bits). Yesterday I rewatched episode 4, and I'm obsessed with it. When I was half-watching it the first time, I thought it was Rachel explaining the "fuck you, tuck me in" mode of teenagers that made Carl start to get it together about his relationship with Jasper, but it's actually the whole episode: Rachel explaining the psychology of teenagers, and Victoria telling him that Jasper idolizes him and was at the hospital while he was in surgery, and Martin telling him to talk to Jasper about the shooting.

I am deeply obsessed with this family unit. What happened to Jasper's biodad? What has Jasper's relationship been with Victoria given that (a) she thought it was best for him to live with Carl and (b) she only knows Jasper was in the hospital the whole time Carl was in surgery because her mom told her about it? What was Carl and Jasper's relationship before the divorce? How long ago was this divorce?

(Possibly there are book-world answers for this, but I hope we get more of this in season 2 of the show.)

Love that whole family unit including Martin the lodger. Great characters and very believable. I've read the books and there isn't much back story on the ex' wife and Jasper's dad but Carl's wife is a totally selfish piece of work in the books - hilariously so.

Interesting! Thank you to you and @tj-teejay for chiming in on that.

Tags from @treeonfire: #this relationship is so fascinating to me#it’s not that easy for a non bio parent to get full custody#she couldn’t just drop him off and leave#he had to be fully involved

Yes! And when Carl leaves the voicemail for her, he says, "I know we said he was gonna be better off with me, but I think I'm better off alone." That sounds like it was more of a mutual decision than when he otherwise talks about it.

Tags from @fanfictiongreenirises: #YES i rly hope they explore this in s2#also prev i didnt realise jasper exsted in bookverse so i will be checking out the books sooner than planned#on the rewatch i find that his motivations and acting out make a Lot of sense. him starting to do chores etc post carl going Off at the guy#who threatened him -> directly related to ep 1 where he says he wants carl to stop the occasional parenting & that he knows no one wanted#the situation they're currently in & when carl agrees it makes things worse u can tell by his face that he wanted carl to refute it or smth#like he literally just needed to know that SOMEONE (carl) gives a shit and he got that in form of feral fighting (perfect for a teen boy to#understand)#he only escalates to leaving bc of the voicemail and he literally goes to meet w carl the Moment carl reaches out???#idk i feel like his reactions and behaviour just make a lot of sense and i also feel like there are implications that carl pre divorce was#pretty involved and most likely a v positive figure in his life and carl being so irritated by his acting out also indicates that this isnt#typical behaviour he's used to from jasper

Yes! Carl also tells Victoria that Jasper's the same as always, "Hates my fucking guts," which sounds kind of like Jasper has always disliked him, but (a) surely they wouldn't agree that a child who hates him would be best off with him, and (b) hating the world and the grownups around seems like a pretty normal developmental stage for teenagers. I'm just fascinated by them trying to navigate this tough time.

Tags from @gettingbyi: #fascinating questions indeed#iirc their relationship in the books are much different#so many things to explore#so many probably SAD things to explore

"Probably SAD" - yes! If nothing else, the divorce must have been hard on everyone, and presumably Martin moved in after Victoria moved out, which would have been even more major change in their lives at the same time.

Just on that last point - Martin moving in seems a positive move. Martin calls out Carl's issues. Whatever else he is, Carl is intelligent so some of Martin's insights probably land with Carl and make him think or even modify his behaviour sometimes. I like to hope so anyway.

It might be positive in the long run (and a source of nutrition for Jasper since Martin says he eats all his food), but was probably some upheaval for Jasper at a time when everything else was in chaos.

Tags from @treeonfire: #that’s the thing he’s leaving out a lot when he talks to rachel #and jasper doesn’t seem to know that carl chose this #carl lets jasper believe that he was just dumped there #instead carl would’ve had to go through a whole legal process to be his guardian #and carl never tells him everything he did to ensure jasper stayed with him #FASCINATING

Yes, fascinating! And more fascinating since I rewatched episode 4 again yesterday. Victoria asks about her snow globes, and Martin tells her Carl threw them out but that Martin saved her prints. So that means Carl got the flat, the kid, and the decor in the divorce. Did Victoria just leave one day? Did she take anything other than, like, her clothes? How abandoned does Jasper feel?

And now I have a lot of feelings about Carl saying in the message he leaves for Jasper at the beginning of episode 6, "I want you to come home."

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So I finished rewatching Dept. Q and promptly started over again. In episode 7, Carl tells Jasper that he has to be two people to deal with the stuff he does. Then he says, "You can't go through what you did without it stirring things up," and tells Jasper that they're now in a club of people who know that things can change in an instant:

Carl: You have to go to the meetings, you have speak to the other members of the club, so you know you're not the only one out there who's thinking and feeling the shit that you're thinking and feeling. Jasper: What, so like, you and Hardy? Carl: Yeah, like me and Hardy. And now me and you.

Then when I looped back to episode 1, what caught my attention is that when Carl goes to see Hardy after Hardy has tried to jump out the window, Carl says, "We'll figure it out, okay? Like we always do together. I promise." And then Donna and the Hardy kids come in, and you can see both Carl and Hardy compartmentalize and lock down all the serious stuff under acting cheerful for Donna and the kids.

I am fascinated by this! Does this mean Carl and Hardy actually talk about their feelings and that's part of how they compartmentalize their jobs from their families? Is Carl not talking about how he feels with Hardy because Hardy is worse off after the shooting than he is and Carl thinks it's his fault? And is that lack of his usual support part of why he's such a mess?

I watched Dept. Q two weeks ago, and now I'm rewatching it for Reasons (but fast forwarding past all the Merritt torture bits). Yesterday I rewatched episode 4, and I'm obsessed with it. When I was half-watching it the first time, I thought it was Rachel explaining the "fuck you, tuck me in" mode of teenagers that made Carl start to get it together about his relationship with Jasper, but it's actually the whole episode: Rachel explaining the psychology of teenagers, and Victoria telling him that Jasper idolizes him and was at the hospital while he was in surgery, and Martin telling him to talk to Jasper about the shooting.

I am deeply obsessed with this family unit. What happened to Jasper's biodad? What has Jasper's relationship been with Victoria given that (a) she thought it was best for him to live with Carl and (b) she only knows Jasper was in the hospital the whole time Carl was in surgery because her mom told her about it? What was Carl and Jasper's relationship before the divorce? How long ago was this divorce?

(Possibly there are book-world answers for this, but I hope we get more of this in season 2 of the show.)

Love that whole family unit including Martin the lodger. Great characters and very believable. I've read the books and there isn't much back story on the ex' wife and Jasper's dad but Carl's wife is a totally selfish piece of work in the books - hilariously so.

Interesting! Thank you to you and @tj-teejay for chiming in on that.

Tags from @treeonfire: #this relationship is so fascinating to me#it’s not that easy for a non bio parent to get full custody#she couldn’t just drop him off and leave#he had to be fully involved

Yes! And when Carl leaves the voicemail for her, he says, "I know we said he was gonna be better off with me, but I think I'm better off alone." That sounds like it was more of a mutual decision than when he otherwise talks about it.

Tags from @fanfictiongreenirises: #YES i rly hope they explore this in s2#also prev i didnt realise jasper exsted in bookverse so i will be checking out the books sooner than planned#on the rewatch i find that his motivations and acting out make a Lot of sense. him starting to do chores etc post carl going Off at the guy#who threatened him -> directly related to ep 1 where he says he wants carl to stop the occasional parenting & that he knows no one wanted#the situation they're currently in & when carl agrees it makes things worse u can tell by his face that he wanted carl to refute it or smth#like he literally just needed to know that SOMEONE (carl) gives a shit and he got that in form of feral fighting (perfect for a teen boy to#understand)#he only escalates to leaving bc of the voicemail and he literally goes to meet w carl the Moment carl reaches out???#idk i feel like his reactions and behaviour just make a lot of sense and i also feel like there are implications that carl pre divorce was#pretty involved and most likely a v positive figure in his life and carl being so irritated by his acting out also indicates that this isnt#typical behaviour he's used to from jasper

Yes! Carl also tells Victoria that Jasper's the same as always, "Hates my fucking guts," which sounds kind of like Jasper has always disliked him, but (a) surely they wouldn't agree that a child who hates him would be best off with him, and (b) hating the world and the grownups around seems like a pretty normal developmental stage for teenagers. I'm just fascinated by them trying to navigate this tough time.

Tags from @gettingbyi: #fascinating questions indeed#iirc their relationship in the books are much different#so many things to explore#so many probably SAD things to explore

"Probably SAD" - yes! If nothing else, the divorce must have been hard on everyone, and presumably Martin moved in after Victoria moved out, which would have been even more major change in their lives at the same time.