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Other posts:

Finale reaction: here Pre-conformitygate delusions: here Don't villainise the Duffers: here

Longer Analysis posts:

Dawson's Creek, Birthdaygate & Rink-O-mania: here Why the ending did not work: here Stuck in the Limbo theory: here ST ending & queer endings: here Blade Runner chess board: here ST ads: here Lumax finale outfits: here STurn analysis Part 1 & 2: here & here IT cyrano trope: here The false hydra: here WSQK vinyl and WSQKsync: here

Shorter Analysis posts:

Finally listened to the grad speech* and if it won't make you believe in lwg or c/g, that's completey fair. HOWEVER, if this speech proves one thing, it's that the DBs we saw in the documentary, and in all the interviews since the finale have been putting up an act.

Because that was a beautiful, heartfelt speech and shows exactly why so many of us fell in love with ST. It wasn't a generic, AI-written, soulless speech, but rather the opposite: They took responsibility, were proud of what they've accomplished without forgetting where they came from, and showed vulnerability. Three things we haven't seen them do in their last public appearances.

And it's SO easy to believe that the DBs are these cruel, egomaniac directors, pure evil, and the set was hell on earth etc. etc. because everyone is so frustrated how ST ends, and everyone claims to have insider info, and it's not like they try to make themselves look good... So this speech was really long-needed.

I've already seen so many brilliant detailed analyses, so I'm not going too deep into that, but this is what it looks to me:

-> the Mimic = the fake finale -> Will-O'-the-Wisp = Jan 7, divorcegate, all the predicted dates, "ST got bad since S3", "They stole the script" -> the elder brain = being a cg/lwg truther despite everything

Conformitygate or not, them saying they cut out byler or changed their mind would be su*cide. Everyone would be mad. If the DBs were somewhat aware of how people think of them and would consider their reputation, they would have maybe said some things about how byler is cute and Noah and Finn have great chemistry, and high school romance is doomed anyway, but that is the MOST. It would be stupid to change their answer in that regard, because the backlash would only get worse.

I feel like everyone is focusing on the wrong things here. I'm not talking about people who spent money on going to that event, of course!!! I would also be incredibly pissed off. But people who didn't go – calm down, we knew it was going to be ragebait. Hopefully, the podcast will be up soon, and then we can actually see, if there is something to be found.

And like, if this was your last straw to leave the bus, that is completely valid! But "byler was not in the cards" was the most expected statement ever, and NOT what we should focus on.

1) The whole "we are one" thing is probably real, which means Henry/001 has to work for the MF. So some things he did were because he literally didn't have a choice, bc he and MF are intertwined.

We think his version of saving ppl is killing them- be it through his demos (Bob & Eddie)(demo deaths happen when the character overcomes a fear/personal problem) or through flaying (Chrissy, Patrick, Fred, Max, all the lab kids)

If this show is truly sci-fi, bringing the tesseract into it would be Awesome. He could literally be freeing them from this world the MF has created by sending them back to their universe. (I find it interesting that small El & big El couldn't really use their powers well until she was mid-being vecna'd, we see her go through that tunnel of memory (or is it), and then her powers are There).

2) if theory 1 isn't right: There might be multiple MFs (or this one is actually neutral and not part of the og MF hive mind). Like, this MF might have started its own hivemind of demos and Vecna and children who needed help instead of its og hive.

What if the MF and Vecna both want the same thing: for nonconformity. But bc of the battle, things went wrong, and now everyone is conforming

Now, MFs need to consume minds to survive, so we think Nikki in Tales might be the MF in disguise trying to represent Byler's love and get them to confess; like, the MF is giving them trial runs? And they're failing, and it's benefitting the MF bc nom nom minds, but its also helping them in the long run as well (byler endgame)

Either way, I'm imagining there being a fake out death, bc that's the way to escape this reality (even El had to), and then when they reach the real reality, they'll need to completely sever their connection w the hive mind (bc either way they need to get away from this once and for all) and to do that I imagine it being Will losing eye and Mike losing hand.

Ummmmm I hope this wasn't too rambling

And also sorry for all the holes lol I just woke up and can't find our notes w everything in it

Sorry this took me so long!

This is so cool. It also reminds me a bit of a theory I had a while ago about S5 being pretty much like Inception and the characters having to die to wake up. And yes – the tesseract! I genuinely don’t understand why they’d put such heavy emphasis on a wrinkle in time just to leave out the actual interesting things (and also leave out the love declaration as culmination point when we have the MF possession right there). Ooooh, that part about El is actually so interesting. Generally, I wouldn't mind there being a bit more pay-off or at least reference to the Nina project for all the time it took up in S4. In sum, you and your mom’s theory are imo very plausible, it would explain a lot of things without being too far-fetched or establishing too much new stuff, and fits the narrative.

This is like really interesting. I am not sure if I understood everything correctly because it seems rather complex (or I am stupid), but i love the idea of Tales from ’85 being some sort of subtle preparation for both the audience and the characters. I also love the „deeper“ MF lore because it’s a great contrast to the spider monster in the finale (and I like everything that supports that the finale was made bad deliberately). I’ll always be on team fake out death simply because of the Spiderman reference from WSQK, so that's a good point too. I feel like this theory is more difficult to pull off but it’s also lot less predictable than the first one and the concept is insanely cool.

So to preface this, I don’t know how the event tmr is gonna go, I’m unprepared, so maybe all questions are pre-approved, maybe not, I don’t even know if there are gonna be recordings??? I’ve been so busy with real life lately, so this is a rushed messy post, and I am not up to date with anyone, I am really sorry. But, here are some ideas for pro/ anti conformitygate/ lovewinsgate to make this a bit more a priori and hopefully reduce a bit of the confirmation bias.

Pro conformitygate/ lovewinsgate

DBs won’t acknowledge c/g and January, or only say „haha, they really didn’t want it to end“

They will again talk about all the relationships (except byler) and act like everyone only cares about who stays together (and not about the plot holes)

Won’t disclose stuff about the spin-off (the one that Finn guessed the plot of)

No spontaneous audience questions (only pre-approved questions, or even better no audience questions, and only questions from that guy lol)

They “Answer“ the question about who opened the door/ why Will was chosen by Vecna without saying anything of substance

They act like they’re flayed (e.g. reference their cold, name actors by their characters’ names, tell weird OOC stories about the actors)

Talk about other shows’ (bad) endings, bonus if they mention sticking the landing

Mention tales of '85 without being asked by outsiders, talk super positively about it, mention things that don't really make sense (Nikki, monsters, the fact that El can go outside (I haven't watched the show so idk)), mention more stuff about all the ways they can further expand the ST universe

Mention the documentary without being asked by outsiders, bonus point if they mention not having the scripts ready in time

Mention the First Shadow and its importance

Anti conformitygate/ lovewinsgate

DBs rebuke c/g whilst acknowledging it as a good theory (and not just ridicule and belittle it)

DBs make a statement on queerbait allegations, or at least acknowledge that people misinterpreted the byler scenes and that they can see how that happened or smth. Maybe say smth. about why Mileven didn’t even kiss except for the finale because what the hell. But I do expect a mention, even if it's stuff like saying Mike is straight and a very good friend.

DBs disclose some real stuff about the spin-off (it has to be the spin-off that Finn guessed, the rock thing might be a diverson). I’m thinking of a teaser, or some kind of confirmation of the setting and characters

Spontaneous audience questions

DBs Answer question about the tape, the door, the painting, why Will was taken, WSQKsync

Acknowledge WSQKsync, talk about WSQK radio station

Acknowledge tales of '85 in a fond way (homage to cartoons they watched as kids), try to reduce the "Stranger Things as a capitalist franchise vibe"

Whewwww

That is really a good point! And my honest answer is: I don't know. This is where things get really messy.

One of the biggest continuity errors in S5 is how all of the children who are abducted by Vecna are being held captive exactly the same way Will is in S1. However, while Will is heavily traumatised by that experience, none of the S5 kids seem to be much disturbed by it except for idk some mild disgust. Which makes sense, because implying that 12 children are being SAd in the almost goofy comedy whimsical world that ST S5 is, is a whole different thing than implying that it happened to Will in S1 where the world is a lot more realistic, gritty and dark. Like. You can't do that. Especially if you don't want to show any repercussions.

And I genuinely don't understand why you would make the SA imagery even more obvious in S5E1 and then have the same thing happen to the kids later, but make it not be SA imagery. Like. I am seriously confused what made the DBs do this because they could have had the children be asleep or anything but no, they had to draw this connection.

And just like these two things are being mixed up, Vecna is placed in S1 even though that does not make sense. There is no reason, we don't learn anything new, and it makes things only so much more unnecessarily complicated (just like that goddamn worm hole).

S5 generally (and in some sense S3 and S4) seems to have completely lost the tether to reality, the grounding, that made S1 and S2 so strong. However, maybe that is exactly the intention. Because a lot of the biggest theories that make S5 make sense hypothesise that what we see in S5 is made up of layers of dreams/ fake reality in some sense. And Vecna is part of that.

In other words, I still don't think that Vecna was the one who abducted Will in S1. I know that the show says something else. And I'm not sure if it makes more sense to differentiate between Henry and Vecna (possessed Henry), or to make Vecna a manifestation of trauma (that is unconnected to Henry). So I am leaning towards fake memories, and think that we still don't really know what happened to Will in S1.

And I know how that sounds – and you are free to dismiss this as debunked, obviously :D

But it is noteworthy, how much time in S5 is spent on showing the different sides of Vecna, Henry, Mr Whatsit. The ridiculous time it takes the characters to figure out Mr Whatsit is Vecna, just after learning before that Vecna is Henry. So many alter egos. So much time with the kids and Henry, and everything just for Will to ask whether Henry is good after all, after confirming that Vecna is the one who took Will in S5. It's ridiculous. Or, it's intentional.