what up

Reform VS Revoltion

Batman, like many of the capes, believe that Reform is...

(a) possible, because society is built upon the notion that we have to care about each other according to what we have and what we need so that we can all survive, and even with how its become flawed and riddled with oppressive adjacents (products of times of crises when kindness becomes insufficient to satisfy the needs of this society according to the information that this kindness was institutionalized with), kindness and care for our fellow person can and still does exist

and (b) necessary because the answer to a broken system isn't to toss it out, as that is largely dismissive to the people who do depend on it and what can happen to them if there becomes a vacuum of power and progress stagnates

Side note but this is why I get iffy when people call Bruce a "leftist" like he's center-left at best on the horizontal spectrum

This explains Bruce's humanitarianism which is one of the cornerstones of his modus operandi, alongside being a detective, a father/mentor, and a soldier

But then you have characters or groups like Ra's Al-Ghul and the League of Assassin are revolutionists who operate on Misantrophy and think that human society (and in some extreme cases, the species itself) should collapse for...

Well, depends on the telling, but in their original telling as eco-pessimists, the Al-Ghuls believe that humans are inherently bad and are the plague of the Earth and its other inhabitants, because the systems by which human society operate on are inherently destructive (the way we source food, travel, etc.) and the only penance and solution to humanity's destruction is mankind's extinction

Another villain example I have would be Poison Ivy, who believe that humanity is a parasite to a planet that had been better off without the existence of society

As well as the likes of Two-Face and Black Mask, who believe that order can only be established when the "enemies" of this order is extinguished and from their rubble comes the model of a world made anew

Both sides of the debate have merit to them.

Believers of Reform.... would have to concede that some of the institutions that human society depend on (a) are based on harmful operations, and (b) have harmful history or precedences it's propagating

Believers of Revolution.... would have to concede that their means would set precedences to the value of life, either by forcing others to give it up for the cause, or by determining some living beings as enemies, regardless of how much of them is a victim or a beneficiary of the system being revolted against

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Hope as Retribution

I've already talked plenty about how Red Hood exemplifies this foil to Batman well, but the better character to exemplify this foil is honestly Catwoman..... before whatever the fuck New 52 did to her ig

Batman, alongside systemic reform, is a firm believer in individual rehabilitation and redemption. It's why every rogue he's ever had, he's done his best to invest in their betterment or at least uprooting the reasons why they feel the need to resort to villainy to satisfy the emotions that led them down their path.

It's all based on the belief that for there to be a better world, we all have to take care about each other and stop thinking of each others an enemies when we are all victims, one way or another.

Meaning we all have to think that every life is precious and deserves dignity. Yes even that one.

Catwoman challenges that in many of her better stories, asking "Even this one?" and referring to child abusers, rapists, human traffickers.

That even if an argument can be made that these same criminals are victims of circumstance (economic necessity, indoctrination of oppressive systems), that doesn't erase the fact that they had committed the worst crimes a human can do to another human, and it often meant preying on the most vulnerable of our species.

And their victims are angry, and they want retribution because they already had their own dignity stripped of their supposedly precious lives, and so demand it made equal

Both sides have merit

Rehabilitating villains/criminals... doesn't change what they did, and why must society invest in the welfare of those who contributed to the oppression that destroys it

Allowing individuals and states to decide who lives or dies.... sets a precedence of mistrust because these standards can be altered, and doesn't address the root of why these crimes happen in the first place

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Fear is a Weapon

This is why I wanted to ask where that video is so I can understand the context of calling Bruce "a villain disguised as a champion of justice"

Because in a way.... that is what justice is. A punisher pretending to be judicious. A method of reform and resolution to timeless problems that proceeds based on traditions founded on stagnant, archaic culture

But that aside, I think it is fair to think Bruce is no better than his villains in a way that he also weaponizes fear. Bruce doesn't shy away from the fact that Batman is only ever effective or legitimate if criminals are afraid and victims trust that they don't have to be afraid of him.

We are all genuinely one bad day away from becoming the same monsters that destroyed us or we otherwise swore not to become

Two-Face exemplifies this well because he is what Bruce could've been if that one bad day had made him a crueler person.

Whereas Batman believes that fear is better as a detterrent, Two-Face thinks of fear as a warning shot.

Meant to hurt, to send a message, to legitimize one of two choices "Stop or else..." Both methods of using fear has the same end goal, but one already hurts, the other is making corpses into the banner of a philosophy war.

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I want it noted that Bruce doesn't hate all of his rogues, if the question is only about how they feel about each other.

He respects some of them to a degree or another, and the same right back, depending on why they became who they are and how much merit can be creditted to the sincerity of their goals.

But Bruce is also right to be against them because.....

......he's a fucking superhero, my guy.

Of course Bruce will be stubborn that society is worth fixing and everyone is worth saving. He's a superhero. He's meant to be an ideal. That's the whole thing with them.

Fuck you gonna come up to Batman and start yapping about the death penalty, eye for an eye, clean slates........ LIKE DO YOU NOT LOVE HUMANITY? DO YOU NOT BELIEVE THAT KINDNESS CAN EXIST FROM THE RUBBLE OF OUR FLAWS?

But that aside...

I think if you have to analyze Bruce's relationship with any of his villains, or any of his allies too, you have to keep in mind that these characters are, well, fictional characters

Of course Batman's fights with his rogues are frustrating as they are action-filled. Of course it's gonna be tied to a city characterized as being a cradle of stubborness, good and bad. Of course neither of them will ever truly win or die.

They're mouth pieces to age-old stories and debates that we've been having as a society for centuries.

The value of human life. The pursuit of rehabilitation. The institutionalization of kindness.

Can we survive this? Where do we draw the line?

"Are we worth saving?"

As long as the answer to those questions are "Well, it depends..."