In It For The Fun

TO EVERYONE ELSE:

A series of ten reblogs is about to follow, since you can only have one poll per reblog. Please answer all ten polls. If you don't see them all, check the notes (this shouldn't take me long so if it's more than like, fifteen minutes since I posted this one they should all be there.)

I fear my opinions are risky, but here we go!

* Krolfred is my absolute OTP. I am not immune to the corruption of the innocent, especially if you agree with the take that Alfred is secretly drawn by vampirism/having a dark side deep down; nor I am immune to the trope of the stoic and secretive villain who pretend he doesn’t have feelings, but being secretly fond of the hero. Beside, how can you expect me to watch Carpe Noctem, or listen to Krolock singing about how Alfred’s soul belongs to him, and not feel normal about it? I have a lot of feels about this ship, they’re my emotional support vampire/human ship. I could talk about them for hours.

* Herbfred was the first ship I was “into” when I first watched Tanz, but I quickly fell out of love, I think it was partly because this ship is basically everywhere in the tag (don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the shippers! I respect the ship's place in the ecosystem that is the fandom), and because of the way they’re characterized in fanfics, with Herbert being that toxic and obsessive guy who won’t take no for an answer and basically force himself on Alfred, and Alfred somehow falling in love with him despite having being sexually assaulted. I'm not saying that ALL Herbfred fics are written like this, but I don’t wish to renew the experience. It’s just a personal opinion, but I don’t think they’re compatible. Herbert is too flamboyant, too self-centered, and he would quickly drain Alfred from his energy. Alfred is more calm and bookish, he would prefer the quiet. However, it could be interesting to see them in a platonic way.

* Sarfred is a ship I didn’t think much about in the beginning but I liked them enough. Then, they grew on me, and I developed the need to defend them because of how the fandom tends to downplay them or dismiss their relationship. I really don’t buy the fact Sarah isn’t interested in Alfred. Sarfred is a good example of gothic romance to me. I love Alfred’s devotion for Sarah and how he’s willing to brave his fear to stay with her, and I believe Sarah chose to turn Alfred because she wanted that life of freedom with him. Krolfred might be my favourite ship, but I have a soft spot for Sarfred as well (also maybe a threesome between Alfred, Krolock and Sarah, since it’s canon Krolock also had his sights on Alfred). I don’t think I’ll get enough of seeing Alfred and Sarah being feral vampires and basically eloping, hungry for freedom and blood at the end of the musical.

* Krolah (or Sarlock) isn’t a ship I can get behind. Maybe "hate" is a strong word here, I would rather choose "neutral" or "dislike". I recognize the potential of this ship, but I don’t quite follow the fandom’s characterization of the characters and the ship. I can’t see this ship as romantic, I believe there’s attraction, especially Sarah for Krolock, it’s a tale of a willing corruption, Sarah vowing herself to darkness for freedom. Maybe something happened between them, and that Krolock feels affection for her, but it’s not a relationship that can last. Sarah is too hungry for freedom to stay forever at the Castle with Krolock, and I can’t see Krolock interested in Sarah that way, he would see her more as a beloved fledgling than a romantic interest, but that’s just my opinion.

* Herbert/Krolock is a pair I can only see as platonic, and their relationship has a lot of potential, it’s a shame they barely interacted in the musical, but this is not a pair I like to focus on. They have a relationship that holds a lot of potential, considering the fact we know so little about them and their life, so there are so many things we could say about them, and I recognize the potential. Alas, they're not who and what I focus on when I'm in my Tanz mood.

and i agree with everything you said about sarahfred including the bit about starting out not minding them much but ending up being defensive of them because how the majority of the fandom sees them. i like sarahlock and i think they are romantically sexually attracted to each other but i agree that i don't vibe with how the fandom mostly depicts them either and they're never suppoed to work out in the long run. to me they're flings who fucked once and moved on.

we share *a lot* in common with our taste in ships lmao because that's my experience with herbfred too. it's my first ship and while i still do have a soft spot for them now they don't interest me as much because of how fanon sees them. interestingly enough i find fanon herbfred too fluffy and mild for my taste and i like characterizing herbert as the predatory obsessive guy who forces himself on alfred BUT i don't like it when alfred starts having feelings for him back. i like herbfred strictly unrequited on herbert's side.

Yes!!! I didn’t know about it until I saw a post a couple of years ago, but Krolock was singing as well to Alfred in Gott ist Tot, and I’ll be forever bitter they cut it, just like they cut a part of Vor dem Schloss. I firmly believe that, even though Krolock focused more on Sarah, he had his sights on Alfred as well. After all, the more the merrier! There’s also a Japanese version where Krolock kisses Alfred in Carpe Noctem. I’m not immune to the twink being seduced and corrupted by the villain, because said villain is a master of seduction and manipulation, but also because, deep down, Alfred wanted it. I also like to imagine Krolock being drawn by Alfred’s innocence while wanting to corrupt it.

I’m so glad you think the same about Sarfred. Krolfred at least has a small fanbase, 4 pages of fanfictions on AO3, but Sarfred is seriously underlooked it’s criminal. They have so much potential! Sarah was definitely interested in Alfred (though, I imagine, it depends of how the actress plays Sarah), and they ran off together at the end of the musical. Vampires lovers traveling across the world, maybe causing havoc where they go.

Like I said, I’m not a big fan of Sarlock or Herbfred but I agree with your take on both ships. I don’t think Herbert was really interested in Alfred in a “I fell in love, he’s my soulmate” way, but rather that he chose Alfred as his prey. He saw a cute young man, and wanted him for his blood and maybe his body also, I also believe he was there as a mean of distraction, so Alfred wouldn’t find Sarah too soon and persuade her to run away together. The thing is, I can see Alfred being seduced and corrupted but by Krolock, not Herbert, because Alfred has for Krolock a fascination that he never had with Herbert, and Krolock definitely caught his attention in Vor dem Schloss.

It’s crazy (in a very good way) that we have a lot in common with our taste in ship, I feel less alone! And, reading your tags, I’m glad I’m not up to date with the latest versions of the musical. It’s a shame they fell into the easy part of making Alfred (and Herbert) a comic relief, when this character has such more depth! Even Herbert shouldn’t be the “funny gay vampire” character. I wish he was portrayed as the vampire he truly is, someone terrible and beautiful and dangerous.

I’m mostly heartbroken concerning Alfred. He’s not a comic relief, he’s the protagonist, in my eyes. It’s like failing to see the point of the story. For me, Tanz isn’t about Krolock or the romance between Krolock/Sarah, it’s about Alfred, and maybe also Sarah as well, it’s a sort of coming of age story. Tanz isn’t a love story to me, it’s rather… growing up, embracing the darkness, vampirism, corruption…

speaking of the japanese version, aka toho, it is indeed very krolfred-adjacent lmao. yamaguchi yuichiro played krolock in vor dem schloss with all the #yaoi in his heart, god bless him. there's a recording where after caressing alfred's (urai kenji) face he cheekly touches the tip of his nose. i don't know if you have seen that post that said toho's vor dem schloss is basically krolock giving alfred an orgasm, but i've asked a friend to roughlh translate the libretto there for me, and apparently there's a line that's like "I will create magic with my hands" so you can take it as like. krolock offering to give alfred a handjob.

herbert's character isn't expanded on much in canon (which is understandable, since he's a minor side character), but i've always seen him as a spoiled rich kid who is very lonely like his father and thus latches onto the first boy he sees in god knows how long, deluding himself into thinking it's love. likewise, I just can't imagine alfred having feelings for herbert back, because there is. literally nothing in herbert that could possibly fascinate him. herbert doesn't share alfred's yearning for freedom like sarah, nor does he seem to "understand what he thinks and feels" like krolock, and even then krolock is a better representation of vampirism.

sadly, recent prods have been too far gọe in the bastardization of tdv's characters. the de-protagonization of alfred is, while absolutely unacceptable to me, is something I can *at least* get behind because "dark romance between an innocent human girl and sexy old man vampire" as a premise is probably more marketable than alfred's coming-of-age story. plus even in the original prod where it was made with alfred as the protagonist in mind, it was krolock and sarah who got to appear in the poster and not him.

and herbert... well. the worst an alfred actor could do is maybe like yelp a little comically and effeminately in wenn liebe in dir ist and sie irren professor (yes, lukas p*rman and vincent van g*rp, i am looking at you) and act like a happy-go-lucky fool who seems blinded by his puppy crush in für sarah, but a bad herbert actor could make you go through the most painful minutes of your life. in order to evade the Toxic Obsessive Predatory Gay trope they manage to make him more of an Overly Effeminate Comic Relief Gay stereotype (milan van wa*rdenburg, this one is for you), which is just as bad. for me it is worse because at least in rarly prods herbert was taken seriously, and you can attribute his intimidacy to him being a vampire rather than his homosexuality.

You’re raising a good point. Krolock and Herbert have quite a solitary life and, while they have each other, I can only guess how refreshing it is for them to have new company, especially from the outside world. Having been lonely, he would latch on the first cute boy he would see. Plus, as a spoiled rich kid, he wouldn’t take “no” for an answer and would try to force his affection on Alfred and scare him away while Krolock’s seduction is more subtle and efficient on Alfred, he was definitely more intrigued by Krolock, whereas Herbert just scare him.

I think that Alfred is shy and insecure, and alone (with only books and Abronsius to keep him company), yet he longs to be noticed and understood and loved, and that’s why he quickly fell in love with Sarah, and how he latched on when Krolock gave him attention during “Vor dem Schloss”. Whether you find that Krolock’s monologue in the graveyard is sincere or not, I think Krolock does know what loneliness feel like and how terrible it can be, and I think he can see himself in Alfred, or at least understand what he feels, and that’s because of that, and because he knows how to read Alfred so well that his seduction works!

(just a precision, I may not ship Herbfred but that doesn’t mean I dislike Herbert as a character, I think he’s fine and interesting, I’m just more focused on other characters ^^)

Yeah, I can see why they’re doing it. Dark romance is getting more and more popular, and I guess a vampire/human girl romance is way more marketable than what Tanz originally was. It’s a shame because it’s so much more than that, and it’s more interesting than that. Focusing on the romance only is taking away the depth of the original story, in my opinion. It only make me glad I have never seen the newest productions.

I interpret it as both somewhat of an act krolock had for alfred and somewhat of krolock being sincere. I think his pain and suffering was true, but he also sort of utilize it and exaggerate here and there a bit to intentionally manipulate alfred. it's a veru realistic and common thing people do, where they tell you a true story, and twist and omit certain details to present themselves as more of a perfect victim. basically I think krolock did feel sad about the things he did, but Not That Sad. and he is very well aware of it and intentionally act more pathetic to get alfred to feel bad for him, completing the corruption arc.

as for why krolock even had his eyes on alfred (and sarah) in the first place, I think he just merely viewed them as poor innocent souls that would be really entertaining for him to corrupt, in a schadenfreude-ish way (I like my krolock highkey fucked up in the head lmao). I like to think he did see some value higher than that in alfred and herbert, but generally still had quite a condescending attitude towards them, thus making his downfall and their escape all the more cinematic.

(the bit you said about him seeing alfred is interesting tho 👀 to me they're kinda an opposites-attract situation if we're excluding their mutually strong passion and desire)

and while the general fanon (and at this point, many recent tdv prods'l interpretation of herbfred has dulled my liking for them quite a bit I too couldn't bring myself to hate herbert. he's a fascinating character with tons of potentials to explore in fanon.

I don't think dark romance has been getting more popular, I think they actually have always been popular, looking at how Pulp Fiction was such a huge thing. while romance is a big theme in tdv, I do agree that there's more to it than that and even *if* we had to market it as a dark romance I'd pick sarah/alfred rather than sarah/krolock lmao.

I definitely agree with you! Krolock wishes to trick Alfred, to manipulate him, he doesn’t hesitate to lie to do so, but I like to think there’s some truth in his words as well. What better way to manipulate someone by using some truth? I think he definitely recognizes Alfred’s feelings of loneliness and he sympathizes with him, yet he doesn’t hesitate to use it to corrupt Alfred. The best lies have some truth in them, and Krolock is the kind to play his cards well.

Krolock being condescending yet thwarted by both vampires!Alfred and Sarah, now that’s poetic in a way. It’s very interesting, and this old man needs to be surprised, even shocked, by Alfred and Sarah. While I think vampire!Alfred eventually became more like his old self, a vampire with a human heart, I like how freaky Alfred and Sarah are at the end of the musical. I can’t get enough of the reprise of Draußen ist Freiheit, how violent yet tender Sarah is with Alfred, then how they’re escaping together, ready to ruin the world. They give a “folie à deux” vibes and I’m here for this). Let Alfred and Sarah be freaky together <3

Krolock and Alfred are definitely different, they’re like day and night, however I do like to think they share some traits, like you said, a strong passion and desire, also they know how heavy solitude can be, and they have a calm temper, contemplative.

When I spoke of dark romance getting popular, I was more thinking in books. At least, where I live, I’ve been seeing a lot of them these past years, but you’re right. If I had to market Tanz as dark romance, or even gothic romance, Alfred/Sarah is what comes to my mind, not Krolock/Sarah.

I see Krolock also as a "hurt people hurt people" kind of guy, and it goes further with his defeatist view: he has severe self-loathing issues and sees himself as despicable and deplorable, and assumes the same for everyone else, that deep down all humans are terrible and evil. he corrupts people probably to validate that belief and maybe feel better about himself (?) like if everyone is horrible then maybe i am *not* that bad.

I like to think that there's a bit of a personality change when one becomes a vampire, but basically all it does is make them be more open about their desires, so technically still the same personality but bolder. vampire!alfred would probably still be generally polite and shy but he's definitely onto causing absolute chaos with vampire!sarah, partly because he does kind of like it (his dark side!) and also because he's willing to do anything to make sarah happy. with sarah by his side she'd definitely urge both of them to do the freakiest stuff.

In my post-finale headcanon vampire!alfred, while is mostly busy travelling the world and wreaking havoc everywhere he goes with sarah, would sometimes take time to travel back to könisberg and watch his old professor secretly from afar in a bittersweet manner.

also, more on toho tdv, since I just checked out their 2019 prod and can now confirm the krolfred bits are absolutely intentional. krolock gave alfred two boners at vor dem schloss, one metaphorical (as he raised his arm holding the sponge) and one literal (while herbert was singing his debut lines, krolock sneakily slided towards alfred, caressing abronsius' book across his body in an undeniably suggestive manner, and the second it reached his pants alfred's hands immediately went to cover his crotch his hands with a painful? enjoying? expression. it was that explicit). at sie irren professor, he said something along the lines of "alfred, you must stay here", "alfred, everything you need is here" and "alfred who has just blossomed belongs to me" 😭 i checked out with a friend and they said that yes krolock was referring to alfred as if he's some pretty flower that he wants to keep for himself. do whatever you want with that information.

of course, there are downsides, such as the fact that they didn't have alfred also listening to krolock at vor dem schloss, they also removed the kiss in carpe noctem. but overall, i'm content with yamaguchi yuichiro making sure he's going to be the most homoerotic krolock to have ever been on stage.

je suis le mal aimé...

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2002 Boerne ist ein Mann, der so eine Fassade um sich aufgebaut hat, der sich so fehl am Platz fühlt in der Welt, dass man es ihm förmlich ansieht.

Es ist so leicht ihn als queer zu interpretieren aus genau dem Grund.

2002 Boerne ist ein Mann, der in striktesten Verhältnissen aufgewachsen ist, wo jeder jeden sein Leben lang kennt, und nichts wichtiger ist als der Familienname und das Aufrechterhalten des guten Rufs. Sein Vater ist ein einflussreicher Mann in dieser Gesellschaft: es gehörte offenbar zur Normalität, zu gehobenen Feierlichkeiten eingeladen zu werden, mit Jagd und allem drum und dran. Der alte Ahlsberg erkennt Boerne am Namen seines Vaters. Der Kollege, der das Implantat identifiziert, erinnert sich, wie er vor 23 Jahren in den Klavierflügel gekotzt hat.

Peak Vorraussetzungen als queerer Mann im Jahr 2002, dessen Umfeld noch ein paar Jahrhunderte weiter zurück ist.

Vincent Benítez is a little lean, but he's remaining cheerful.

Thomas Lawrence has lost 30 pounds and shows no sign of stopping. He is sometimes seeing visions. He has learned from many previous Lents not to mention this to the gang. He's only fainted twice but Ray won't stop fretting.

No matter what he gave up (sex or gossiping) Ray O'Malley is feverishly pent-up one way or the other, and he's taking it out on His Eminence by being half-frantic with worry. He is constantly trying to sneak high-calorie anything into him. Best results came from a very hearty lentil soup with chorizo, from His Holiness. His Eminence ate a bowlful two weeks ago.

Cardinal Sabbadin has had 4 bottles of good wine. Sundays are always feast days and therefore a break, look it up.

Aldo Bellini has given up. You can't be Secretary of State without swearing. It's impossible. He will not jeopardize the trust placed in him, no, not even for a fast. Instead he is doing a swear jar and donating the proceeds to Congregatio Jesu. So far he's collected 140€.

Joshua Adeyemi changed course mid-stream and has given up secular music. He misses opera so bad it isn't even funny. He has purchased twelve 1mL cologne samples; mixed results.

Joseph Tremblay has given up Candy Crush. He has purged himself of it. He has in the meanwhile developed a debilitating addiction to 2048. It's because he always on he damn phone.

Goffredo Tedesco has started writing tweets on small scraps of paper and littering them out the window or stapling them to the drapes. He will not be defeated by this! Yet he has a poster's soul.

Sister Agnes has caught a few nuns huffing Sharpies just to feel something. One of these years she's going to take a spring break.

But her family. Holy shit.

First off, it’s p much ALL women, and mostly UNMARRIED women, which at this time means of something happens to her dad then you’re financially responsible for like. Four grown ass adults, potentially forever

Because mom in law is DEFINITELY gonna need someone to take care of her when dad in law kicks it, and they have like. NO money. So already you’re accepting that if all goes well, you’re gonna be one random old bag’s retirement home. That’s expensive and exhausting, yeah? Imagine asking someone on a first date knowing that if they say yes and things go good her high-strung chihuahua mother is gonna move in with you. IMAGINE.

And girly’s other sisters. Well, one is a sweetheart, yeah, so she probably won’t be an issue, but that still leaves three more, and two of those ones are INSUFFERABLE. Never went to school, dumb as rocks, spend cash like it’s toilet paper

And while one of the two is young still and might grow out of it the OTHER one is actively torpedo’ing her entire family’s reputation by wandering off with random dudes and chasing ass. She’s never gonna work, she can’t build connections, she’s a fucking sinkhole, and she’s being led on by the same goddamn con man ass leeching tit who’s been bleeding you dry while telling anyone who’ll listen that your family is full of ratty thieving bastards.

And if he dumps her after a week- WHICH YOU KNOW HIS BITCH ASS IS GONNA- you’ve got a SECOND UNMARRIABLE GROWN ASS ADULT TO PROVIDE FOR. And you KNOW she’s gonna be a tantrum-throwing little shit about it, and it’s not like you can lock her in the basement or something, you’re gonna have to bring her fucking. Everywhere. And give her an allowance and shit while she contributes zero, because again, she NEVER GOT EDUCATED AND HAS NO MARKETABLE SKILLS. She’s not even good to TALK to. FUCK

And you’re looking at this girl’s father like “please for the love of fuck get your spawn under control, marry them off, get them working on their résumé, learning to sew or be nursemaids or manage staff or SOMETHING, yall got no money and one foot in the grave” and that old man just laughs like “haha yeah, what can you do. lol”

So you’re looking to the mom and finally it’s making sense how she got that twitch in her eye and as MUCH as she is you’re starting to realize she’s the SMART one, desperately throwing her armloads of girls at random men like they’re a bunch of fucking lifeboats bobbing around a sinking ship, like yes Jesus Christ sweetly that life boat IS old and ugly and kind of boring but for FUCKS SAKE PICK ONE

And you look back at this girl who is ALSO REFUSING THE LIFE BOATS BY THE WAY and god damn it she’s still the most radiant thing you’ve ever seen so fine, fuck it, Christ alive, you’ll do it. You’ll shoot your shot. She’s everything you’ve ever wanted in anybody abut it’s not even just about that anymore, it’s about being her best fucking shot at a future, and even if she doesn’t like you all that much she’s still gonna say yes and that might break your heart a bit knowing it’s about the money but who knows, maybe it will at least be civil, or companionable, and even if she doesn’t LOVE you at least you’ll know she’s well and cared for

And so you’ll do it. You’ll take on the neurotic stress mess mother in law, the absent father, the broke ass wingnut no brain no money no future airhead sisters, the bad mannered relatives and the embarrassing behaviour and the impending future of sharing your entire shit with a clown parade of freeloaders, you’ll risk it all and accept the absolute certainty of financial ruin and emotional exhaustion for the rest of your whole ass life and you’ll make your own family deal with it too, you’ll do it, you’ll fucking DO IT, you stupid lovesick motherfucker

And so you go to this chick like “look. Your whole family’s a shitshow. You’ve got fucking nothing and you’re gonna die on the street. But for some reason- and I don’t get it either- I’ve fallen in love with you, and I wish I didn’t, but I did, so I’m telling you that whether you like me or not, I’ll give you everything. I’ll give you everything even if it’s the dumbest shit I ever done. Fuck my stupid Baka ass, I’ll marry you.”

And she looks at you- having heard or considered absolutely none of your months-long internal debate and monologue- and goes “The fuck did you just say about my family, you son of a bitch?”

And the shock of that is enough to jolt you back into a reality where you are able to actually hear and process what just came out of your damn mouth And yeah