People scream āshow donāt tell!ā all the damn time, but the second a show actually DOES just show you stuff and make you use your brain to piece things together you scream ābad writing! Bad writing!ā
Fuck you. You donāt want a story to āshow donāt tell,ā youāre literally angry they wonāt just spoon feed you the answers on a silver platter.
^^^āāā
No worries, I got you covered! The Last Jedi is the best written Star Wars film to date because itās the ONLY Star Wars film that actually contains a theme and message that it explores throughout the story.
Every character and plot point reinforces this theme and so much of The Last Jedi is about hammering home this theme to the audience⦠and the SW community didnāt want to engage with this and just wanted the same generic āobvious evil vs obvious goodā story every other Star Wars film has been about for the past 50 years.
TLJ is the only Star Wars film that contains a theme and message other than generic evil vs. good?? Lmao. Me when I watched the first 6 SW films with my eyes closed and my fingers in my ears. Iām not arcane critical at all but if I were this would not be the take that convinced me otherwise
Alright then. Whatās the theme of the first Star Wars film?
Itās quite literally indicated right in the title. The thematic question that The Phantom Menace asks is how do you contend against forces that you cannot fully see or understand? In your own words, every character and plot point reinforces this theme. The Gungans are overlooked by everyone only to end up being the unexpected force that secures Nabooās victory. The Trade Federation is blind to the full threat that Queen Amidala poses because they have written her off as an unaggressive and pliable young leader. She herself poses as two separate characters and surprises everyone with what she has been organizing behind the scenes, doing her best to gain another vantage point from which to observe and operate because she understands that there are forces at work which are hidden from the Queen, and she wants to leverage that same advantage against her enemies. The Jedi too know that they are navigating in the dark; they understand that their vision is clouded and yet they are forced to make decisions they cannot know the outcome of in order to try to stave off the sinister forces at work. Did Qui-Gon make the right choice in insisting Anakin be trained? Has the threat been vanquished with Maulās death, or does some phantom menace still work against them, out of sight? Like Padme, Palpatine himself conceals his true identity, posing as a good natured politician who worries for his people while pulling all the strings and orchestrating destruction from the shadows. How do you fight against what you cannot see?
All that said, the first 6 films are best viewed as a single story told in 6 parts, and the larger overarching themes are much better appreciated that way. TPM is mainly exposition. Itās like asking what the theme of arc 1 s1 of Arcane is. Itās not that there arenāt any themes there, but itās more about asking questions than answering them, because the story has just barely begun. TLJ isnāt like that. It was written much more like a standalone film that happens to be part of a trilogy of movies. Rian Johnson had one movie to say what he wanted to say, not 6. This is not a critique, it is a fact; the creators have said that they were not given a planned out story to follow so much as a general idea of what the trilogy should be and do, and each director was allowed to realize his vision in his own way. And that doesnāt have to be a bad thing ā I want to emphasize that I have no desire to critique TLJ here. My point is that comparisons between TPM and TLJ are not really even as they hold completely different positions in two narratives that were designed very differently. And yet, you asked me about TPM, which is thematically the weakest of the first 6 films because of what I just explained, and I was able to identify a very clear theme and message anyway. So Iām sure you wonāt doubt that I can do the same for any of the other 5 films.
Iām not here to shit on TLJ. I just think that if you have to tear the other films down in order to prop it up, thatās not saying much.
Sighā¦.
I knew I shouldāve specified the original first movie from the 70ās, not the technical first movie in the series.
I meant what is the theme of the original 1977 film.
And plot isnāt theme. If the theme of phantom menace is āhow can you fight that which you cannot seeā it does a terrible job of actually exploring that theme in a coherent way. Characters just being vague or cagey isnāt a theme. And if fighting what you cannot see is the theme, why does the film end on large flashy fight scenes? I never once felt that there was some sort of invisible force pulling the strings behind the scenes of that film. Itās not even the Force because weāre given scientific explanation for what the force is. Thatās the opposite of keeping things hidden lol.
The Last Jedi, by comparison, is about learning from failure and growing into your potential. Poeās attack on the dreadnaught sacrifices so many lives unnecessarily, so if he wants to lead the rebellion he must learn to appreciate the chain of command and respect orders to keep them safe. Finn and Roseās plan to disable the tracker fails, and they must learn from their failure to make it right. Reyās attempt to get Luke to rejoin the fight fails, and even her attempt to turn Kylo Ren to the light fails, so she must do what she can to fix it. The Jedi failed, as Yoda says. Luke fails to be a good teacher to Kylo and his moment of weakness sets all this in motion. Kylo must learn to let go of the past, and he fails st that TWICE. First when he wonāt attack Leia, and second when he canāt give up the temptation of power and taking down Luke.
Examples of failure are EVERYWHERE in the film and itās PALPABLE. And itās explore through the characters. The heros succeed in the end because they LEARN from their failures, while the villains lose because they donāt learn. Snoke loses because heās so overconfident in his abilities the idea of failure never even enters his mind. Kylo Ren fails because he canāt let go of trying to beat Luke and ends up wasting their time and energy and allowing the resistance to escape.
I canāt think of a theme for the first 1977 Star Wars. The closest I can think of is ātrust your instincts not technology,ā but thatās a VERY weak theme because itās only referenced ONCE in the film. No other aspect of the movie touches upon on it.
And I refuse to look at all 6 original films as one cohesive story, because thatās not how they were written or made. They were made as individual movies and as such I treat them as individual narratives.
Look, Star Wars is fun. But itās not DEEP. And out of all the films in the legacy lineup, the only one that I am confident they had more than just set pieces and plot for is The Last Jedi. Because Rian Johnson is a competent director. George Lucas is not. And neither is J.J.Abrams.
You canāt think what the theme of A New HOPE might be? There are actually a few that I can think of, but one of them is glaringly obviousā¦
The Phantom Menace does not end on flashy fight scenes. It ends on a shot of Palpatineās ominous silhouette as the Jedi uncertainly discuss whether Maulās death means the threat from the dark side has been defeated or not.
What you personally felt or did not feel has no bearing on what the film actually contains. Many people picked up on what the film was showing us. If you didnāt, thatās just fine. Your description of TLJās theme contains quite a lot of plot, too. Might be because themes are illustrated through the plot.
āThe Last Jedi, by comparison, is about learning from failure and growing into your potential.ā Sounds an awful lot like one of the themes of Empire Strikes Back. Funny.
You may ārefuseā to look at the films a certain way, thatās your prerogative. That does not change the fact that yes, they were written as parts of a whole. At the very most you can make the argument that they were written as two separate trilogies, but that means you still have to consider them as 1 of 3 parts of that whole. If youāve read or watched anything about George Lucas and how Star Wars was made youād know that, but youāve already indicated that you donāt respect him as a creator, so thatās fine. I disagree.
Star Wars absolutely IS deep. It is fun, and it is at times relatively simple, but it was made to communicate a profound message to the youth at a time when morale was low, and is based heavily on beliefs that Lucas held dear. You may choose to ignore all that and you may choose to disparage him as much as you like, but facts are facts. The information is there if you feel inclined to look into it.
But I donāt want to get distracted from the reason I replied to your post in the first place, which was because you made two claims that I wanted to refute. The first was that TLJ is the only Star Wars film that contains a theme and a message that is explored throughout the story. The second is that the Star Wars community didnāt like TLJ because they didnāt want to engage with this and just wanted a story that was about a generic good vs. evil conflict. Iāve addressed both of these claims to my satisfaction and now that Iāve said my piece Iām going to step away from this discussion. Thank you for engaging with me.
Why do people always walk away from a conversation just when itās starting to get good?
You canāt just say the theme of the 1977 film is just āhope.ā Thatās nothing. And you canāt just say the phantom menaceās theme is⦠a phantom menace. Thatās asinine. Thatās not what themes are. Thatās just using the title of the movie to describe the events of the movie.
Did you notice that I didnāt say that the theme of the last Jedi is there being a last Jedi?
And no, the phantom menace ends on a one on one duel with Darth Maul and a CGI landwar battle between droids and aliens. When I said the end of the film, I didnāt mean the literal last shot of the film. wtf?
The facts about George Lucas is that heās a bad director. He canāt direct actors. And he doesnāt understand narrative plotting. Star Wars was going to be a failure if his wife hadnāt stepped in and edited it down and rearranged it so that it made cohesive sense. And he didnāt direct the sequels after that until Phantom Menace and thatās regarded as one of the worst films in the series. George had a vision, yes, but heās not a genius. He was making shit up on the spot. Letās be real here.
You still havenāt answered my question though⦠what is the theme of the 1977 film. Thatās the one I wanted to talk about, and thatās the one you keep ignoring. What is the theme of that film? What is explored theori every character and villain and set piece that unifies it in a cohesive story? And donāt just say āitās hope!ā Cuz thatās nothing.
If you find people walking away mid-way through discussions to be a recurring event it might be time to consider that it's because you engage in those discussions in a disingenuous and bad faith manner.
The theme of A New Hope is Hope. And that theme is expressed so heavy-handedly that it even makes it to the title. The title of the movie doesn't dictate the theme, the theme dictates the title, and its ironic that A New Hope is the only title that is that direct about its theming and also the one film you seem to have the hardest time identifying a theme for. @trrenchertrash already told you the theme and you dismissed it as "nothing" because it doesn't suit your narrative. And not only have you completely dismissed it but you've also done so with no real rebuttal, just a rejection, which makes it impossible to engage with you in any meaningful way. But hey, I'll bite anyway.
If your issue with "hope" being the theme of the original Star Wars film is because you find it to be underdeveloped and simplistic, I would remind you that theme as a literary device is a central topic, subject, or message within a narrative (which the answer of "hope" covers) and is also often able to be expressed in a single word. In which case an argument that "hope" is too simplistic, implies a fundamental misunderstanding of literary theme and does not apply here. But i am also perfectly capable of providing you with a more complex interpretation of A New Hope's theming if that's your requirement.
The theme of A New Hope is not just hope, but the endurance of hope, even in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds and even after crushing losses, when it seems that all hope has been lost. The film has many instances of hope returning after seemingly having been lost but the most poignant follows the first and last major scenes in the movie. A New Hope opens with the interception of Leia's ship, the failure of her mission, her capture, the unveiling of an extremely formidable weapon, the destruction of an entire planet, and the lines "This is our most desperate hour. Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope". So we open on a very dire note, and with only one avenue of salvation - Obi-Wan. But between this opening scene and the celebratory victory at the end of the movie, we lose that avenue - Leia's proclaimed only hope for the rebel alliance is lost, in the form of Obi-Wan's death. And yet the movie still ends in victory for the rebels. The Death Star is destroyed, Han Solo, Chewbacca, and Luke are new members of the rebel alliance, and even though the empire still exists, even though Alderaan and Obi-Wan are gone, there is still so much hope.
But please tell me how that is "nothing". You're entitled to dislike the theme, or even the entire movie, but to deny its existence only implicates your ability to identify what is frankly a glaringly obvious message, out of what is likely willful ignorance given your lack of struggle in identifying one for The Last Jedi.
As for the depth of Star Wars as a whole, George Lucas' competency or lack thereof as a director has little bearing on the messages his story contains. Star Wars is full of meaningful themes and messages throughout all its installations, including the endurance of hope, the power of will, faith in oneself and ones abilities, the importance and influence of immaterial forces, love, mercy, self-sacrifice, humility, the corrupting nature of power and also of fear, criticism of political systems, and so many more. You could write a PhD dissertation on the messages and lessons conveyed through the prequel era Jedi Order alone. Just because the themes aren't shrouded in layers and layers of complexity doesn't negate their value. Star Wars is meant to be an easily digestible and fun story for all ages. None of that makes it shallow in any sense.
I find assigning āhopeā to the entirety of the movie to be ānothingā because hope as a concept is in EVERY movie and film and character and narrative. When thereās a fight, the hero hopes to win. When youāre at your lowest you hope things will turn around. As the villain is about to win we as an audience hope the heroes can defeat them. Itās such a BASIC concept of storytelling that to sum up ALL of Star Wars 1977 as just āenduring hopeā is just soā¦. Childish and simple.
Thatās like saying Lord of the Rings is about Love or something. Yes love plays a role in the film, but itās not the films ultimate thesis and theme.
Thatās why Iām grasping at something being a bigger and less ambiguous theme. And why I latched on to the concept of technology vs faith.
Throughout the film the Empire relies heavily on technology to get their way. And in the end battle sequence itās Lukeās faith in the Force that saves them. That SHOULD be the theme of the film. Itās the climax of the film, it has some seeds planted earlier in the film, and it has a distinct message.
But itās weak. Outside of being told what the force is, and a few moments of Luke learning about the force and using his instincts in training, itās not expanded upon much (in the 1977 film).
Iām not acting in bad faith. Iām trying to get answers and Iām not getting them, or Iām getting dismissive ones or ones that donāt feel substantial enough.
You dismissed @trrenchertrash's argument with no counter-argument until just now when I called you out on it. Being dismissive in a discussion is a bad faith response. I can extend good will far enough to accept that it wasn't intentional but that doesnt absolve it of being in bad faith. The same way you have ignored an entire paragraph of my response, which i will simply repost again for you.
If your issue with "hope" being the theme of the original Star Wars film is because you find it to be underdeveloped and simplistic, I would remind you that theme as a literary device is a central topic, subject, or message within a narrative (which the answer of "hope" covers) and is also often able to be expressed in a single word. In which case an argument that "hope" is too simplistic, implies a fundamental misunderstanding of literary theme and does not apply here. ...
You don't have to like it, thats fine. You are entitled to your own opinions and tastes but to dismiss what is objectively there based on your own personal opinion is disingenuous. And Lord of the Rings is absolutely about love. It is not the only theme in Lord of the Rings but it is a main one, which is very in line with Tolkien's intent to portray his own Christian values in his story.
Additionally, the existence of a character feeling hope is not the same as having hope as a theme in a story. Lots of characters have hope for various different things in The Phantom Menace, and yet hope is still not a theme of that movie because thats not how themes work. Hope existing in a story is not the same as a story being about hope. Almost every film includes learning from failure as well. If characters got everything right the first time we'd be surrounded by some pretty thin plots. The premise even exists in A New Hope, with Luke failing to deflect shots from the combat remote in the beginning, to then successfully destroying the Death Star on the same premise. That doesn't make "learning from failure" a theme of A New Hope.
Technology vs faith is is a weak theme with little supporting evidence in the movie because its not actually a theme in that movie. I'm unsure why you're holding onto the premise despite having disproved it yourself. You are seeking complexity at the expense of understanding what is being shown to you.
... Just because the themes aren't shrouded in layers and layers of complexity doesn't negate their value. Star Wars is meant to be an easily digestible and fun story for all ages. None of that makes it shallow in any sense.
Again, you can dislike it, thats your prerogative, but your personal opinion does not equal an objective fact. I laid out the existence of hope as the theme of A New Hope and you ignored that to refer back to your position of "its too simplistic", completely dismissing that i had already addressed that point as well, which is, you guessed it, disingenuous.
















