the bitch king of angmar

^^^———

No worries, I got you covered! The Last Jedi is the best written Star Wars film to date because it’s the ONLY Star Wars film that actually contains a theme and message that it explores throughout the story.

All that said, the first 6 films are best viewed as a single story told in 6 parts, and the larger overarching themes are much better appreciated that way. TPM is mainly exposition. It’s like asking what the theme of arc 1 s1 of Arcane is. It’s not that there aren’t any themes there, but it’s more about asking questions than answering them, because the story has just barely begun. TLJ isn’t like that. It was written much more like a standalone film that happens to be part of a trilogy of movies. Rian Johnson had one movie to say what he wanted to say, not 6. This is not a critique, it is a fact; the creators have said that they were not given a planned out story to follow so much as a general idea of what the trilogy should be and do, and each director was allowed to realize his vision in his own way. And that doesn’t have to be a bad thing — I want to emphasize that I have no desire to critique TLJ here. My point is that comparisons between TPM and TLJ are not really even as they hold completely different positions in two narratives that were designed very differently. And yet, you asked me about TPM, which is thematically the weakest of the first 6 films because of what I just explained, and I was able to identify a very clear theme and message anyway. So I’m sure you won’t doubt that I can do the same for any of the other 5 films.

I knew I should’ve specified the original first movie from the 70’s, not the technical first movie in the series.

I meant what is the theme of the original 1977 film.

And plot isn’t theme. If the theme of phantom menace is “how can you fight that which you cannot see” it does a terrible job of actually exploring that theme in a coherent way. Characters just being vague or cagey isn’t a theme. And if fighting what you cannot see is the theme, why does the film end on large flashy fight scenes? I never once felt that there was some sort of invisible force pulling the strings behind the scenes of that film. It’s not even the Force because we’re given scientific explanation for what the force is. That’s the opposite of keeping things hidden lol.

The Last Jedi, by comparison, is about learning from failure and growing into your potential. Poe’s attack on the dreadnaught sacrifices so many lives unnecessarily, so if he wants to lead the rebellion he must learn to appreciate the chain of command and respect orders to keep them safe. Finn and Rose’s plan to disable the tracker fails, and they must learn from their failure to make it right. Rey’s attempt to get Luke to rejoin the fight fails, and even her attempt to turn Kylo Ren to the light fails, so she must do what she can to fix it. The Jedi failed, as Yoda says. Luke fails to be a good teacher to Kylo and his moment of weakness sets all this in motion. Kylo must learn to let go of the past, and he fails st that TWICE. First when he won’t attack Leia, and second when he can’t give up the temptation of power and taking down Luke.

Examples of failure are EVERYWHERE in the film and it’s PALPABLE. And it’s explore through the characters. The heros succeed in the end because they LEARN from their failures, while the villains lose because they don’t learn. Snoke loses because he’s so overconfident in his abilities the idea of failure never even enters his mind. Kylo Ren fails because he can’t let go of trying to beat Luke and ends up wasting their time and energy and allowing the resistance to escape.

I can’t think of a theme for the first 1977 Star Wars. The closest I can think of is “trust your instincts not technology,” but that’s a VERY weak theme because it’s only referenced ONCE in the film. No other aspect of the movie touches upon on it.

And I refuse to look at all 6 original films as one cohesive story, because that’s not how they were written or made. They were made as individual movies and as such I treat them as individual narratives.

The Phantom Menace does not end on flashy fight scenes. It ends on a shot of Palpatine’s ominous silhouette as the Jedi uncertainly discuss whether Maul’s death means the threat from the dark side has been defeated or not.

What you personally felt or did not feel has no bearing on what the film actually contains. Many people picked up on what the film was showing us. If you didn’t, that’s just fine. Your description of TLJ’s theme contains quite a lot of plot, too. Might be because themes are illustrated through the plot.

“The Last Jedi, by comparison, is about learning from failure and growing into your potential.” Sounds an awful lot like one of the themes of Empire Strikes Back. Funny.

You may “refuse” to look at the films a certain way, that’s your prerogative. That does not change the fact that yes, they were written as parts of a whole. At the very most you can make the argument that they were written as two separate trilogies, but that means you still have to consider them as 1 of 3 parts of that whole. If you’ve read or watched anything about George Lucas and how Star Wars was made you’d know that, but you’ve already indicated that you don’t respect him as a creator, so that’s fine. I disagree.

Star Wars absolutely IS deep. It is fun, and it is at times relatively simple, but it was made to communicate a profound message to the youth at a time when morale was low, and is based heavily on beliefs that Lucas held dear. You may choose to ignore all that and you may choose to disparage him as much as you like, but facts are facts. The information is there if you feel inclined to look into it.

You can’t just say the theme of the 1977 film is just “hope.” That’s nothing. And you can’t just say the phantom menace’s theme is… a phantom menace. That’s asinine. That’s not what themes are. That’s just using the title of the movie to describe the events of the movie.

Did you notice that I didn’t say that the theme of the last Jedi is there being a last Jedi?

And no, the phantom menace ends on a one on one duel with Darth Maul and a CGI landwar battle between droids and aliens. When I said the end of the film, I didn’t mean the literal last shot of the film. wtf?

The facts about George Lucas is that he’s a bad director. He can’t direct actors. And he doesn’t understand narrative plotting. Star Wars was going to be a failure if his wife hadn’t stepped in and edited it down and rearranged it so that it made cohesive sense. And he didn’t direct the sequels after that until Phantom Menace and that’s regarded as one of the worst films in the series. George had a vision, yes, but he’s not a genius. He was making shit up on the spot. Let’s be real here.

The theme of A New Hope is Hope. And that theme is expressed so heavy-handedly that it even makes it to the title. The title of the movie doesn't dictate the theme, the theme dictates the title, and its ironic that A New Hope is the only title that is that direct about its theming and also the one film you seem to have the hardest time identifying a theme for. @trrenchertrash already told you the theme and you dismissed it as "nothing" because it doesn't suit your narrative. And not only have you completely dismissed it but you've also done so with no real rebuttal, just a rejection, which makes it impossible to engage with you in any meaningful way. But hey, I'll bite anyway.

If your issue with "hope" being the theme of the original Star Wars film is because you find it to be underdeveloped and simplistic, I would remind you that theme as a literary device is a central topic, subject, or message within a narrative (which the answer of "hope" covers) and is also often able to be expressed in a single word. In which case an argument that "hope" is too simplistic, implies a fundamental misunderstanding of literary theme and does not apply here. But i am also perfectly capable of providing you with a more complex interpretation of A New Hope's theming if that's your requirement.

The theme of A New Hope is not just hope, but the endurance of hope, even in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds and even after crushing losses, when it seems that all hope has been lost. The film has many instances of hope returning after seemingly having been lost but the most poignant follows the first and last major scenes in the movie. A New Hope opens with the interception of Leia's ship, the failure of her mission, her capture, the unveiling of an extremely formidable weapon, the destruction of an entire planet, and the lines "This is our most desperate hour. Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope". So we open on a very dire note, and with only one avenue of salvation - Obi-Wan. But between this opening scene and the celebratory victory at the end of the movie, we lose that avenue - Leia's proclaimed only hope for the rebel alliance is lost, in the form of Obi-Wan's death. And yet the movie still ends in victory for the rebels. The Death Star is destroyed, Han Solo, Chewbacca, and Luke are new members of the rebel alliance, and even though the empire still exists, even though Alderaan and Obi-Wan are gone, there is still so much hope.

But please tell me how that is "nothing". You're entitled to dislike the theme, or even the entire movie, but to deny its existence only implicates your ability to identify what is frankly a glaringly obvious message, out of what is likely willful ignorance given your lack of struggle in identifying one for The Last Jedi.

That’s like saying Lord of the Rings is about Love or something. Yes love plays a role in the film, but it’s not the films ultimate thesis and theme.

That’s why I’m grasping at something being a bigger and less ambiguous theme. And why I latched on to the concept of technology vs faith.

Throughout the film the Empire relies heavily on technology to get their way. And in the end battle sequence it’s Luke’s faith in the Force that saves them. That SHOULD be the theme of the film. It’s the climax of the film, it has some seeds planted earlier in the film, and it has a distinct message.

But it’s weak. Outside of being told what the force is, and a few moments of Luke learning about the force and using his instincts in training, it’s not expanded upon much (in the 1977 film).

If your issue with "hope" being the theme of the original Star Wars film is because you find it to be underdeveloped and simplistic, I would remind you that theme as a literary device is a central topic, subject, or message within a narrative (which the answer of "hope" covers) and is also often able to be expressed in a single word. In which case an argument that "hope" is too simplistic, implies a fundamental misunderstanding of literary theme and does not apply here. ...

You don't have to like it, thats fine. You are entitled to your own opinions and tastes but to dismiss what is objectively there based on your own personal opinion is disingenuous. And Lord of the Rings is absolutely about love. It is not the only theme in Lord of the Rings but it is a main one, which is very in line with Tolkien's intent to portray his own Christian values in his story.

Additionally, the existence of a character feeling hope is not the same as having hope as a theme in a story. Lots of characters have hope for various different things in The Phantom Menace, and yet hope is still not a theme of that movie because thats not how themes work. Hope existing in a story is not the same as a story being about hope. Almost every film includes learning from failure as well. If characters got everything right the first time we'd be surrounded by some pretty thin plots. The premise even exists in A New Hope, with Luke failing to deflect shots from the combat remote in the beginning, to then successfully destroying the Death Star on the same premise. That doesn't make "learning from failure" a theme of A New Hope.

Technology vs faith is is a weak theme with little supporting evidence in the movie because its not actually a theme in that movie. I'm unsure why you're holding onto the premise despite having disproved it yourself. You are seeking complexity at the expense of understanding what is being shown to you.

... Just because the themes aren't shrouded in layers and layers of complexity doesn't negate their value. Star Wars is meant to be an easily digestible and fun story for all ages. None of that makes it shallow in any sense.

^^^———

No worries, I got you covered! The Last Jedi is the best written Star Wars film to date because it’s the ONLY Star Wars film that actually contains a theme and message that it explores throughout the story.

All that said, the first 6 films are best viewed as a single story told in 6 parts, and the larger overarching themes are much better appreciated that way. TPM is mainly exposition. It’s like asking what the theme of arc 1 s1 of Arcane is. It’s not that there aren’t any themes there, but it’s more about asking questions than answering them, because the story has just barely begun. TLJ isn’t like that. It was written much more like a standalone film that happens to be part of a trilogy of movies. Rian Johnson had one movie to say what he wanted to say, not 6. This is not a critique, it is a fact; the creators have said that they were not given a planned out story to follow so much as a general idea of what the trilogy should be and do, and each director was allowed to realize his vision in his own way. And that doesn’t have to be a bad thing — I want to emphasize that I have no desire to critique TLJ here. My point is that comparisons between TPM and TLJ are not really even as they hold completely different positions in two narratives that were designed very differently. And yet, you asked me about TPM, which is thematically the weakest of the first 6 films because of what I just explained, and I was able to identify a very clear theme and message anyway. So I’m sure you won’t doubt that I can do the same for any of the other 5 films.

I knew I should’ve specified the original first movie from the 70’s, not the technical first movie in the series.

I meant what is the theme of the original 1977 film.

And plot isn’t theme. If the theme of phantom menace is “how can you fight that which you cannot see” it does a terrible job of actually exploring that theme in a coherent way. Characters just being vague or cagey isn’t a theme. And if fighting what you cannot see is the theme, why does the film end on large flashy fight scenes? I never once felt that there was some sort of invisible force pulling the strings behind the scenes of that film. It’s not even the Force because we’re given scientific explanation for what the force is. That’s the opposite of keeping things hidden lol.

The Last Jedi, by comparison, is about learning from failure and growing into your potential. Poe’s attack on the dreadnaught sacrifices so many lives unnecessarily, so if he wants to lead the rebellion he must learn to appreciate the chain of command and respect orders to keep them safe. Finn and Rose’s plan to disable the tracker fails, and they must learn from their failure to make it right. Rey’s attempt to get Luke to rejoin the fight fails, and even her attempt to turn Kylo Ren to the light fails, so she must do what she can to fix it. The Jedi failed, as Yoda says. Luke fails to be a good teacher to Kylo and his moment of weakness sets all this in motion. Kylo must learn to let go of the past, and he fails st that TWICE. First when he won’t attack Leia, and second when he can’t give up the temptation of power and taking down Luke.

Examples of failure are EVERYWHERE in the film and it’s PALPABLE. And it’s explore through the characters. The heros succeed in the end because they LEARN from their failures, while the villains lose because they don’t learn. Snoke loses because he’s so overconfident in his abilities the idea of failure never even enters his mind. Kylo Ren fails because he can’t let go of trying to beat Luke and ends up wasting their time and energy and allowing the resistance to escape.

I can’t think of a theme for the first 1977 Star Wars. The closest I can think of is “trust your instincts not technology,” but that’s a VERY weak theme because it’s only referenced ONCE in the film. No other aspect of the movie touches upon on it.

And I refuse to look at all 6 original films as one cohesive story, because that’s not how they were written or made. They were made as individual movies and as such I treat them as individual narratives.

The Phantom Menace does not end on flashy fight scenes. It ends on a shot of Palpatine’s ominous silhouette as the Jedi uncertainly discuss whether Maul’s death means the threat from the dark side has been defeated or not.

What you personally felt or did not feel has no bearing on what the film actually contains. Many people picked up on what the film was showing us. If you didn’t, that’s just fine. Your description of TLJ’s theme contains quite a lot of plot, too. Might be because themes are illustrated through the plot.

“The Last Jedi, by comparison, is about learning from failure and growing into your potential.” Sounds an awful lot like one of the themes of Empire Strikes Back. Funny.

You may “refuse” to look at the films a certain way, that’s your prerogative. That does not change the fact that yes, they were written as parts of a whole. At the very most you can make the argument that they were written as two separate trilogies, but that means you still have to consider them as 1 of 3 parts of that whole. If you’ve read or watched anything about George Lucas and how Star Wars was made you’d know that, but you’ve already indicated that you don’t respect him as a creator, so that’s fine. I disagree.

Star Wars absolutely IS deep. It is fun, and it is at times relatively simple, but it was made to communicate a profound message to the youth at a time when morale was low, and is based heavily on beliefs that Lucas held dear. You may choose to ignore all that and you may choose to disparage him as much as you like, but facts are facts. The information is there if you feel inclined to look into it.

You can’t just say the theme of the 1977 film is just “hope.” That’s nothing. And you can’t just say the phantom menace’s theme is… a phantom menace. That’s asinine. That’s not what themes are. That’s just using the title of the movie to describe the events of the movie.

Did you notice that I didn’t say that the theme of the last Jedi is there being a last Jedi?

And no, the phantom menace ends on a one on one duel with Darth Maul and a CGI landwar battle between droids and aliens. When I said the end of the film, I didn’t mean the literal last shot of the film. wtf?

The facts about George Lucas is that he’s a bad director. He can’t direct actors. And he doesn’t understand narrative plotting. Star Wars was going to be a failure if his wife hadn’t stepped in and edited it down and rearranged it so that it made cohesive sense. And he didn’t direct the sequels after that until Phantom Menace and that’s regarded as one of the worst films in the series. George had a vision, yes, but he’s not a genius. He was making shit up on the spot. Let’s be real here.

The theme of A New Hope is Hope. And that theme is expressed so heavy-handedly that it even makes it to the title. The title of the movie doesn't dictate the theme, the theme dictates the title, and its ironic that A New Hope is the only title that is that direct about its theming and also the one film you seem to have the hardest time identifying a theme for. @trrenchertrash already told you the theme and you dismissed it as "nothing" because it doesn't suit your narrative. And not only have you completely dismissed it but you've also done so with no real rebuttal, just a rejection, which makes it impossible to engage with you in any meaningful way. But hey, I'll bite anyway.

If your issue with "hope" being the theme of the original Star Wars film is because you find it to be underdeveloped and simplistic, I would remind you that theme as a literary device is a central topic, subject, or message within a narrative (which the answer of "hope" covers) and is also often able to be expressed in a single word. In which case an argument that "hope" is too simplistic, implies a fundamental misunderstanding of literary theme and does not apply here. But i am also perfectly capable of providing you with a more complex interpretation of A New Hope's theming if that's your requirement.

The theme of A New Hope is not just hope, but the endurance of hope, even in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds and even after crushing losses, when it seems that all hope has been lost. The film has many instances of hope returning after seemingly having been lost but the most poignant follows the first and last major scenes in the movie. A New Hope opens with the interception of Leia's ship, the failure of her mission, her capture, the unveiling of an extremely formidable weapon, the destruction of an entire planet, and the lines "This is our most desperate hour. Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope". So we open on a very dire note, and with only one avenue of salvation - Obi-Wan. But between this opening scene and the celebratory victory at the end of the movie, we lose that avenue - Leia's proclaimed only hope for the rebel alliance is lost, in the form of Obi-Wan's death. And yet the movie still ends in victory for the rebels. The Death Star is destroyed, Han Solo, Chewbacca, and Luke are new members of the rebel alliance, and even though the empire still exists, even though Alderaan and Obi-Wan are gone, there is still so much hope.

But please tell me how that is "nothing". You're entitled to dislike the theme, or even the entire movie, but to deny its existence only implicates your ability to identify what is frankly a glaringly obvious message, out of what is likely willful ignorance given your lack of struggle in identifying one for The Last Jedi.

George Lucas: A Life by Brian Jay Jones

George was enormously far-sighted, and the studio wasn’t, because they didn’t know the world was changing. George did know the world was changing. I mean, he changed it.

so no name is impossible to pronounce world-wide, but it is very easy to not have the linguistic archive necessary to pronounce a given name entirely correctly. it is a simple case of physically not knowing where to place your tongue, whether or not to vibrate your vocal chords, etc. the only one of the dictators of sound you could be shown is how to position your lips