So I'd like to damn you and thank you all at once. Because I just stumbled upon this after just finishing TWoK and the mistborn trilogy before it. It was cool seeing all the stuff here, and then I read about the fact that we saw hemalurgy outside of scadrial and the dots connected with almighty mentioning cultivation and with mistborn and preservation and ruin and NOW I HAVE TO READ ALL OF THE BOOKS AND OH MY GOD AND... I have one question, why? Because this will consume me and I need a reason.
Ahaha, welcome! A read through my posts here should answer your "Why?" question. ..."Why" is the one thing I keep coming back to and not entirely figuring out. I don't know "why" for any of this. But I'm so glad you're here! Enjoy your journey through the cosmere, my friend. (And please share it with me if you ever find the answer.)
Anya is live and ready to show you everything. Watch her strip, dance, and perform exclusive shows just for you. Interact in real-time and make your fantasies come true.
ā Live Streamingā Interactive Chatā Private Showsā HD Quality
Anya is LIVE right now
FREE
Free to watch ā¢ No registration required ā¢ HD streaming
A lot of the time in fiction, the hero wonāt kill the adversary, because it morally protects the hero to not kill out of vengeance, no matter how well deserved. Even if the hero is a trained killer, they rarely actually kill the bad guy. I believe that as soon as a main character has a history with the villain, they are under a moral obligation to not be the one that directly kills the other.
Most of the time, thatās fine.
Spoilers below for Mistborn 1-3 and all of Stormlight
Iām on mobile and have never actually posted anything before, so I donāt know how to make a cut for Stormlight spoilers below. So uh SPOILER WARNING AND IāLL FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO THE CUT ON DESKTOP LATER.
*spoilers*
ā¦
*spooilerrrrs*
ā¦
ā¦
Iām interested to see if this will be addressed in book 4 as an intentional subversion in relation to these charactersā growth. Adolinās actions at the end of WoR were addressed in OB directly after, and though it didnāt seem to affect Dalinar beyond his initial reaction and the wariness of others that followed, the Kholins on-the-whole faced consequences when Amaram stepped up.
Perhaps the subversion of Sadeasā death was that the consequences fell to Adolin and the paranoia he felt throughout Oathbringer before his confession to Shallan. Iāll have to reread OB because I canāt remember if it was brought to light with Dalinar.
It struck me as odd that Kaladinās wrap-up at the end of OB was more concerned with accepting Shallan and Adolin, rather than moving on from Amaram. I can see that maybe the relief of accepting the existence of genuine and good lighteyed people, would outweight the shock of not being the one to end the man who made him hate lighteyes in the first place.
But all the same ā I have speculations that perhaps Kaladinās reaction will be a struggle that is addressed in the coming book.
I agree, @junebugaida! It was an odd focus after such a potentially cathartic event. Iām not sure if it was character detachment or the author reaching the end of a very long book and deciding to just not draw out the conclusion any longer, and I hope youāre right, that it will be explored more in Book 4. There were a lot of similarly unsatisfying loose ends from that battle that I hope will not be overlookedā¦
(Also, yes, Adolin told Dalinar, after the battle and just before the coronation of the new ruler of Alethkar. I think youāre right, that Adolin carried most of the consequences on his own. By the time he spoke to Dalinar (on page 1220 of 1233 in my book), there wasnāt much said about it. Not to discourage you from rereading, as this book is well worth it.)
#iād argue that the protags donāt need to kill the antags??#to fulfill their arcs at least#kallie had already accepted all that amaram had done to him#they had that whole convo while they fought#kallie is already on the path of healing#killing someone is a great way to signify that the protag is past their abuse and stuff#but it isnāt necessary??#zuko and his dad for example#zuko confronted his dad and called him out and redirected his lightning and all that#and while he had the perfect chance to kill ozai he didnāt cuz he claimed it was aangās destiny#i dunno how much this all makes sense#and i need to reread OB to be able to back up my claim better#but uh thatās my thoughts right now#interesting discussion!!#stormlight archive#cosmere
Aah, thank you, @greatshell-rider!Ā
No, youāre absolutely right, it ISNāT necessary. My question is not whether the killing is necessary, but supposing it is (like with Amaram)ā¦If it is needed to complete the villainās arc, and the protagonist isnāt the one who does it, then who does? And under what circumstances?
It seems to me that as soon as the hero has any level of personal interaction with the villain, from that point, they cannot be the one to kill them, or they will lose the moral high ground. Usually itās because the antagonist has become humanized, and only nameless unknowns get killed without consequence in stories.
That also doesnāt apply to Amaram, because he became less human throughout his arc.
Iām very sorry to tack onto this post somewhat because this may get to be mostly off-topic, but I have a lot of opinions about Kaladin and Amaram and the way that final fight occurs, so feel free to ignore this if it seems like a useless addition aha.
In general I would say that I think it depends on the framing of the situation as to whether or not the protagonist loses moral high ground in killing an antagonist they have a personal connection with. I think that it heavily depends on whether that character is compromising their own beliefs (or even in the case of the knights radiant oaths) in doing such a thing, and whether or not the narrative frames what theyāve done as wrong.
In Kaladinās case, I actually think the question of whether it would have been ārightā for him to kill Amaram might miss the point of Kaladinās character arc in the second book. The end result of Kaladinās interactions with Amaram, Elhokar, and Moash especially display that Moashās fixation on personal revenge is not a path that Kaladin is able to commit to in good concience. Kaladinās intention in fighting has always been to protect othersāto find a balance and do what his father said was impossible, kill people in order to save other people. His path is sidelined through the second book when Amaram comes onto the scene because instead of focusing on the 'protecting othersā part of his code, he focuses on finding a way to bring judgement on a person who has wronged him deeply.
The problem is that the books show over and over that this is not Kaladinās place. His growth throughout the second book comes from the acceptance that while he was truly and deeply wronged by Amaram, for him, using violence as a path to finding personal revenge is not something that is compatable with his ideals, or his oaths as a radiant. In the end he refocuses himself on the purpose that heās been given these powers forāprotectionāand has to let go of any responsibility for enacting the outcome or consequences of Amaramās actions entirely.
Developing this ability to let go is a major progression in Kaladinās arc in the second book, and I think that itās this, not an attempt at keeping a system of morality that is consistant among all characters, that results in both Kaladin fighting Amaram without it setting him back character-wise, and Kaladin not getting the final blow on him.
If you look at the consequences Amaram does suffer for his actions, youāll notice that not only does Kaladin not kill him, in book 2 he is not the one who uncovers Amaramās current plots or who exposes his dark side and brings him to (some small form) of justiceāit is Dalinar who does this, just like it is Rock who kills him in the end. And in the context of the story, this is because the lesson at the crux of Kaladinās book 2 character arc is not an answer to the question of if killing Amaram is right, itās instead a firm and irrefutable statement that Amaram doesnt matter. Heās an antagonist and his actions have caused Kaladin immeasurable trauma, but he by the time Kaladin fights him he has grown to the point that Amaram is no longer a personal revenge questāitās not about what was done to Kaladin but what Amaram will do to other people if heās allowed to live. Kaladin even affirms this lack of importance heās afforded to Amaramās presence in his life when Amaram tries to take credit for Kaladinās existance as a Knight Radiant, and Kaladin shuts him down. He refuses to allow himself to be defined by Amaram and what he did to him.
I donāt think it would have gone against Kaladinās moral code or caused a regression in his arc to kill Amaram at this point, because his reasons for doing so were in line with his personal beliefs/oaths, but for the exact same reason I think that it was unnecessary for Amaram to die by Kaladinās hand. By the time this fight occurs, Amaram is clearly a danger and both needs and deserves to die, but as long as he is removed from being a threat to anyone else, it isnāt important to Kaladin anymore whether he is the one to bring him down. Thereās no personal catharsis or relief in Amaramās death for Kaladin because while he has been permanently changed by and greviously harmed by Amaramās actions, and while that is something that has impacted his growth as a person, he has moved past the point where personal revenge is an objective for him or a block for character development. Because of his arc through book 2, Kaladin has grown to a place where Amaram does not loom large or take up any huge amount of space in his mindāhe has personal significance still, yes, but in the end he is just another evil person who will hurt others if he is not taken down. And whether it is Kaladin or someone else who does the final stopping is less important to Kaladin than that he is in fact stopped at all.
A lot of the time in fiction, the hero wonāt kill the adversary, because it morally protects the hero to not kill out of vengeance, no matter how well deserved. Even if the hero is a trained killer, they rarely actually kill the bad guy. I believe that as soon as a main character has a history with the villain, they are under a moral obligation to not be the one that directly kills the other.
Most of the time, thatās fine.
Spoilers below for Mistborn 1-3 and all of Stormlight
Iām on mobile and have never actually posted anything before, so I donāt know how to make a cut for Stormlight spoilers below. So uh SPOILER WARNING AND IāLL FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO THE CUT ON DESKTOP LATER.
*spoilers*
ā¦
*spooilerrrrs*
ā¦
ā¦
Iām interested to see if this will be addressed in book 4 as an intentional subversion in relation to these charactersā growth. Adolinās actions at the end of WoR were addressed in OB directly after, and though it didnāt seem to affect Dalinar beyond his initial reaction and the wariness of others that followed, the Kholins on-the-whole faced consequences when Amaram stepped up.
Perhaps the subversion of Sadeasā death was that the consequences fell to Adolin and the paranoia he felt throughout Oathbringer before his confession to Shallan. Iāll have to reread OB because I canāt remember if it was brought to light with Dalinar.
It struck me as odd that Kaladinās wrap-up at the end of OB was more concerned with accepting Shallan and Adolin, rather than moving on from Amaram. I can see that maybe the relief of accepting the existence of genuine and good lighteyed people, would outweight the shock of not being the one to end the man who made him hate lighteyes in the first place.
But all the same ā I have speculations that perhaps Kaladinās reaction will be a struggle that is addressed in the coming book.
I agree, @junebugaida! It was an odd focus after such a potentially cathartic event. Iām not sure if it was character detachment or the author reaching the end of a very long book and deciding to just not draw out the conclusion any longer, and I hope youāre right, that it will be explored more in Book 4. There were a lot of similarly unsatisfying loose ends from that battle that I hope will not be overlookedā¦
(Also, yes, Adolin told Dalinar, after the battle and just before the coronation of the new ruler of Alethkar. I think youāre right, that Adolin carried most of the consequences on his own. By the time he spoke to Dalinar (on page 1220 of 1233 in my book), there wasnāt much said about it. Not to discourage you from rereading, as this book is well worth it.)
#i'd argue that the protags don't need to kill the antags??#to fulfill their arcs at least#kallie had already accepted all that amaram had done to him#they had that whole convo while they fought#kallie is already on the path of healing#killing someone is a great way to signify that the protag is past their abuse and stuff#but it isn't necessary??#zuko and his dad for example#zuko confronted his dad and called him out and redirected his lightning and all that#and while he had the perfect chance to kill ozai he didn't cuz he claimed it was aang's destiny#i dunno how much this all makes sense#and i need to reread OB to be able to back up my claim better#but uh that's my thoughts right now#interesting discussion!!#stormlight archive#cosmere
Aah, thank you, @greatshell-rider!Ā
No, youāre absolutely right, it ISNāT necessary. My question is not whether the killing is necessary, but supposing it is (like with Amaram)...If it is needed to complete the villainās arc, and the protagonist isnāt the one who does it, then who does? And under what circumstances?
It seems to me that as soon as the hero has any level of personal interaction with the villain, from that point, they cannot be the one to kill them, or they will lose the moral high ground. Usually itās because the antagonist has become humanized, and only nameless unknowns get killed without consequence in stories.
That also doesnāt apply to Amaram, because he became less human throughout his arc.
A lot of the time in fiction, the hero wonāt kill the adversary, because it morally protects the hero to not kill out of vengeance, no matter how well deserved. Even if the hero is a trained killer, they rarely actually kill the bad guy. I believe that as soon as a main character has a history with the villain, they are under a moral obligation to not be the one that directly kills the other.
Most of the time, thatās fine.
Spoilers below for Mistborn 1-3 and all of Stormlight
Iām on mobile and have never actually posted anything before, so I donāt know how to make a cut for Stormlight spoilers below. So uh SPOILER WARNING AND IāLL FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO THE CUT ON DESKTOP LATER.
*spoilers*
ā¦
*spooilerrrrs*
ā¦
ā¦
Iām interested to see if this will be addressed in book 4 as an intentional subversion in relation to these charactersā growth. Adolinās actions at the end of WoR were addressed in OB directly after, and though it didnāt seem to affect Dalinar beyond his initial reaction and the wariness of others that followed, the Kholins on-the-whole faced consequences when Amaram stepped up.
Perhaps the subversion of Sadeasā death was that the consequences fell to Adolin and the paranoia he felt throughout Oathbringer before his confession to Shallan. Iāll have to reread OB because I canāt remember if it was brought to light with Dalinar.
It struck me as odd that Kaladinās wrap-up at the end of OB was more concerned with accepting Shallan and Adolin, rather than moving on from Amaram. I can see that maybe the relief of accepting the existence of genuine and good lighteyed people, would outweight the shock of not being the one to end the man who made him hate lighteyes in the first place.
But all the same ā I have speculations that perhaps Kaladinās reaction will be a struggle that is addressed in the coming book.
I agree, @junebugaida! It was an odd focus after such a potentially cathartic event. Iām not sure if it was character detachment or the author reaching the end of a very long book and deciding to just not draw out the conclusion any longer, and I hope youāre right, that it will be explored more in Book 4. There were a lot of similarly unsatisfying loose ends from that battle that I hope will not be overlooked...
(Also, yes, Adolin told Dalinar, after the battle and just before the coronation of the new ruler of Alethkar. I think youāre right, that Adolin carried most of the consequences on his own. By the time he spoke to Dalinar (on page 1220 of 1233 in my book), there wasnāt much said about it. Not to discourage you from rereading, as this book is well worth it.)
Anya is live and ready to show you everything. Watch her strip, dance, and perform exclusive shows just for you. Interact in real-time and make your fantasies come true.
ā Live Streamingā Interactive Chatā Private Showsā HD Quality
Anya is LIVE right now
FREE
Free to watch ā¢ No registration required ā¢ HD streaming
A lot of the time in fiction, the hero wonāt kill the adversary, because it morally protects the hero to not kill out of vengeance, no matter how well deserved. Even if the hero is a trained killer, they rarely actually kill the bad guy. I believe that as soon as a main character has a history with the villain, they are under a moral obligation to not be the one that directly kills the other.
Most of the time, thatās fine.
Spoilers below for Mistborn 1-3 and all of Stormlight
I think Kaladin didnāt get to kill Amaram for the same reason he didnāt get to Oath 4, i.e. he had too much of the story on himself in the first 2 books. This book was about Kaladin accepting he couldnāt save everyone (which would have made a badass quote, but thatās beside the point). Amaram is a loathsome eel and deserved death, but I think it would have taken a toll on Kaladin
I think youāre right about that theme, but why would it have had a bad effect on Kaladin? Not that I disagree with the general idea that āHurting others hurts youā exactly, but...I guess Iām just not sure of it in this case. In their confrontation in Oathbringer, everything was set up for Kaladin to feel as little of the consequences of killing another person as possible. If it was to protect Kaladinās morality, well, I can see that as an explanation for why he didnāt go out and murder the guy in the middle of the night, as he wanted to do in WoR. That would definitely have been damaging to Kaladin. This situation, though, I donāt see Kaladinās moral rightness being affected. Killing Amaram was absolutely the right thing to do. It was necessary. And I think itās meaningful that Kaladin didnāt do it, and Iām trying to understand why.Ā
A lot of the time in fiction, the hero wonāt kill the adversary, because it morally protects the hero to not kill out of vengeance, no matter how well deserved. Even if the hero is a trained killer, they rarely actually kill the bad guy. I believe that as soon as a main character has a history with the villain, they are under a moral obligation to not be the one that directly kills the other.
Most of the time, thatās fine.
Spoilers below for Mistborn 1-3 and all of Stormlight
(Vin is an exception to this. Vin killed everybody. Elend, though, didnāt -- he was morally protected, except in the case of headless Jastes. There were lots of nameless enemies killed by both, but Vin got to Shan Elariel, the Lord Ruler, Zane, Straff, Ati...)
In Stormlight, though, the heroes donāt get to kill their bad guys. Take Dalinar. The conflict between Dalinar and Sadeas throughout books 1 and 2 made me think that if Sadeas was going to die, it would be at Dalinarās hand. Instead, Adolin acted impulsively, and now Dalinar doesnāt have to worry about Sadeas, and also doesnāt have the blood of his former friend on his hands, either.
Then thereās Amaram. This one still bothers me.
I had thought from TWoK that Amaramās life was Kaladinās to take. How satisfying it would have been, to see that crembag brought down by the person he tried to destroy! I was sure we would get that moment in Oathbringerā¦
...And thatās not how it played out. Instead of Kaladin, Rock gets to take out that garbage and gets the gratification of ridding Roshar of the worst villain ever written (I have very deep loathing for Amaram).
Granted, Rock was protecting Kaladin, and I donāt believe he has lost anything by killing Amaram. Then again, this justifies my question, since Rock was in battle, was protecting his men, and had no history with Amaram that would make what he did, seem like vengeance. Kaladin was different.
Both of the characters I want to focus on, Kaladin and Dalinar, are warriors. Theyāve killed before. Many times. They have no moral ground about killing when it matters. Why, then, didnāt either of them get to kill their antagonists?
For Dalinar, I can accept the argument that killing Sadeas might have been a questionable decision. After all, Sadeas was a political manipulator, and perhaps thatās grounds for limiting power instead of taking his life. Throw the eel into prison, take away his titles, his leverage. Fighting deviousness with murder is arguably excessive. Dalinar needed to become a leader, not a conqueror. That was part of his arc. Alright, fine.
But Kaladin not killing Amaram...well, it bothers me. Their fight was during a battle, Amaram HAD to be killed, it could absolutely be called protection, self-defense, to take the guy down, heād swallowed that gem and had an Unmade in him...All of that ON TOP OF the fact that he absolutely deserved to die in a ditch because of what heād already done to Kaladin. (Seriously, if Oathbringer had started with āhuh, Amaram just got caught in a highstorm/eaten by a chasmfiend/run over by several chulls offscreenā, I would have cheered.)
As soon as those two started fighting, though, it made sense that Amaram would fall to Kaladin.
Would it have been morally beneath Kaladin? Nope. Would it have made Kaladin less of a hero, less admirable in some way? Absolutely not. Would it have broken his oaths? I donāt see how.
Without Book 4, Iām admittedly a bit in the dark. Under Unkalaki tradition, a nuatoma who gains a Shardblade becomes king, so Rock is probably king now. It wasnāt clarified that this is the case in Oathbringer, though, and Rock did act outside of his cultural role in using the Shardbow, so Iām not certain that the outcome is absolute. If it is, then there will be much more on this ahead, and Rockās taking Amaramās life will be explained and justified later. Right now, Iām focusing on why it wasnāt Kaladin. I mean, he could have killed Amaram and given a Blade to Rock, to reach the same outcomeā¦ but again, Iām out of my depth, not knowing what is to come.
The question I have is, when does the hero get to kill the villain? Is it ever acceptable, for a morally upright character? Do they always lose something if they take the antagonistās life?
All my books are still in storage... Yesterday I finished The Dark Talent audiobook, then checked out the physical copy at the library just so I could throw it.
We now live twice as far away from the release parties as before, and this was our first opportunity since Oathbringer to attend one. It was very small for a Sanderson signing. He began by talking about characters: creating them, choosing favorites or refusing to, and why he hates Cadsuane. He talked about how personal Lies of the Beholder is, and that it's a very intimate glance into a writer's relationship with their characters.
After the Q&A, he read chapter 3 from Skyward while we followed along in our preview booklets (there were lots of changes, and it was fascinating to see what was altered -- mostly for clarity, or for better visuals, or a slightly less dramatic emotional tone). There was a raffle, and my name was called, but long after both the signed AMOL poster (signed by Michael Whelan!) and the Stormlight hoodie were gone...
Two hours later, which is nothing in Sanderson Signing Line Time, we made it to the table. I had my Chinese Mistborns to be signed, and Brandon said he was going to install stained glass windows in his lair that were designed by Jian Guo, the artist for those covers. He showed us one and it was incredible. I can't wait to see what they look like when they're completed.
We each asked a question (all paraphrased):
Q: Are all cognitive shadows affected by silver, or only the ones on Threnody?
A: RAFO.
Q: When Kelsier touched Hoid, why did it hurt him?
A: RAFO.
Q: Was the black sphere that Gavilar gave to Eshonai, the same (meaning same content) as the one he gave to Szeth?
A: Yes.
(I had been certain that merely saying the words "black sphere" would guarantee me a RAFO!)
After our time with Brandon, we got to talk to Miranda Meeks and Isaac Stewart. Miranda's art is incredible as always, and I love seeing her work on the covers. She talked about making sure her design fit with the existing Stephen Leeds books. And Isaac... well, let's just say that a certain typo in the Chinese HoA gave him ideas I didn't expect but I'm very excited to see happen. (It wasn't "peterarm" but I showed him that one too).
It was one of our favorite signing experiences. The smaller book releases are so nice -- we never felt rushed, and everyone there was pleasant and excited to talk about these a amazing books. I'm especially glad that for once I was the only one in our group who did NOT walk away with a RAFO card.
Oh, and about Lies of the Beholder ...That book. Oh my heart. It is brilliant and heartbreaking and a fitting ending and I love it and I am deeply unsettled by it.
Anya is live and ready to show you everything. Watch her strip, dance, and perform exclusive shows just for you. Interact in real-time and make your fantasies come true.
ā Live Streamingā Interactive Chatā Private Showsā HD Quality
Anya is LIVE right now
FREE
Free to watch ā¢ No registration required ā¢ HD streaming
Okay Satan calm down with the Elhokar dissection, some of us aren't ready to process that yet
Delve into it! Write it all out, everything you can find and emotionally respond to across all 3 books. After that, not only will you have a novella, but itāll probably still hurt because this will never be okay.
Oh, storms. I donāt want to talk about this. I have to talk about this.
Elhokar.
My friend is reading Oathbringer for the first time, and I have been following along (this is my 3rd full reread of the book). She reached Chapter 84 today.
(This post is safe to read if youāve read that far. There are no spoilers past that chapter, but heavy spoilers up to that point.)
The best advice I can give to someone whoās upset about Oathbringer is to KEEP READING. Frustration and pain are countered by the moments of glory and redemption, new characters, joys, and insights, most of which are in the last section. Itās still a brutal book. And I would not say it wraps everything up cleanly, not at all. But the ending is powerful. It heals.
...except about Elhokar. That is still a very raw pain for me. By the end of WoR, I had latched on to Elhokar, loved his pursuit of truth and honesty (see my post here about this), and delighted in watching him strive in Oathbringer to grow into a better leader -- or, more exactly, a better man.
āWe all must accept the consequences of our actions, Uncle,ā Elhokar said. āIāve been learning this very slowly, as I can be as dense as a stone.ā
-- Oathbringer, chapter 12
āIāve had ample chances to reflect lately, Uncle,ā Elhokar said. āThe Almighty has preserved me, despite my stupidity. Iāll bring the bridgeman with me, and Iāll observe him. Figure out why heās so special. See if heāll teach me to be like him. And if I failā¦ā He shrugged. āWell, Alethkar is in safe hands regardless, right?ā
I donāt believe Elhokar is either whining or despairing here. Heās been facing truths about himself, tearing down his ego and seeing his limitations plainly. When you go through that, being starkly honest with yourself after a lifetime of not looking very closely at your soul, thereās a period of time where itās easy to be overly critical of yourself instead. Your world has collapsed around you: youāre not who you thought you were, and your ability to achieve anything seems questionable.
Contrast Elhokarās journey with, oh, Adolinās, just briefly. Both are non-Radiants in a world of Surgebinders. Both have been raised in privilege with the expectation of some degree of rule.
Adolin is good at everything he does. Even when he feels useless, he keeps going. Dalinar said that Adolin ādidnāt wilt beneath the stern words. When censured, Adolin only tried harder.ā
Elhokar doesnāt have the advantage of unflappable success. His mediocre skill at leadership is well known. Even his own mother calls him āMy poor, distracted, oblivious boy.ā He married the wrong woman, lost his father to assassins and became king long before he was ready, made his country languish for years in a pointless war, and then realizes no one takes him seriously and that heās a less skilled leader than a darkeyed former slave.
āThe truth is that my command is meaningless, even to a darkeyes. I no longer have authority in the eyes of men.ā
-- Words of Radiance, chapter 80
āWhen I try to be strong, I make a fool of myself. When I try to be merciful, people walk all over me. When I try to listen to counsel, it turns out Iāve picked the wrong men! When I try to do everything on my own, Dalinar has to take over lest I ruin the kingdom.ā
His main problem is his lack of vision. He has no goals. If he had something internal, some kind of achievement to shape his reign and guide him, heād not have wavered so much in his actions. He lacks determination. Everything he says in the above quote could have been addressed by his having a deeply felt purpose. He relied on other people to bolster him instead.
āI know that Jasnah says I shouldnāt have married her -- that Aesudan was too hungry for power. Jasnah never understood. I needed Aesudan. Someone with strengthā¦ā
--Oathbringer, chapter 67
Heās been surrounded by strong people his entire life. Navani, Jasnah, Gavilar, and then Dalinar and eternally capable Adolin...I believe he had expected that the skill to be a good leader would materialize in him, as it seemed to in everyone else around him.
But it didnāt.
āHow do people know what to do? Why donāt I know what to do? I was born to this office, given the throne by the Almighty himself! Why would he give me the title, but not the capacity?ā
--Words of Radiance, chapter 80
Deeply shaken, Elhokar no longer believes in his capabilities at all. He tries to abdicate to Dalinar, believing him to be āa better person, and certainly a better king,ā and lays plans to retake Kholinar without any confidence in himself (he tells Kaladin, āWhen I fail this city, I want to make sure you are there to protect itā -- changing his wording from IF he fails to WHEN).
His jealousy of Kaladin takes an interesting turn. Rather than turning into loathing, Elhokar simply accepts that Kaladin is better than he is (āEveryone loves you, bridgemanā), acknowledges that what went wrong was his own fault, that his decisions made everything worse. He admits his shortcomings. He doesnāt blame Kaladin at all.
āThis is a time to be realistic. A king must do whatever he can for the good of his people, and my judgment has proven...deficient. Anything I have āaccomplishedā in life has been handed to me by my father or my uncle.ā
--Oathbringer, chapter 61
Heās throwing around truths like a highstorm tossing boulders. No wonder he attracted the attention of the cryptics.
āItās a pattern, though I canāt figure it out.ā
Words of Radiance, chapter 80
Facing truths changes a person. They cease expecting praise, and become more willing to listen and learn.
Elhokar had told Kaladin that during Adolinās mismatched duel, āI should have gone to fight myselfā, as Kaladin had leaped into the arena to defend Adolin and Renarin. And so, when Dalinar says that a small team could go to Kholinar to secure the Oathgate, Elhokar leaps at the opportunity:
Elhokar perked up. āYes! Iāll do it, Uncle. Iāll take a team and reclaim our home.ā
--Oathbringer, chapter 12
He might be going about it the wrong way, but heās trying to be a hero. Dalinar doesnāt think itās the best idea. Still, he steps back and doesnāt stop him.
āIt is fitting,ā Dalinar said, āthat their king should be the one who saves them. I will see that you have whatever resources you need, Elhokar.ā
Glowing gloryspren orbs burst around Elhokar. He grinned at them
--Oathbringer, chapter 12
He beamed. āThank you, Uncle. Thank you for believing in me, if only this small amount.ā
--Oathbringer, chapter 12
Oh, Elhokar. He so badly needs approval. As lovely as it is to see Elhokar bask in it, how I wish Dalinar hadnāt decided that this was the moment to encourage him.
In his current state, Elhokar would have been more open to hearing why he should not go. And yet Dalinar, trying to be kind, at the exact wrong time refrains from talking him out of it. Elhokar needed the counsel. I am certain he would have listened. Dalinar, as always, errs on the side of building Elhokar up instead of being honest with him.
Anyway. Moving on, towards Kholinar...
...where Elhokar is no longer preserving his pride.
When Shallan disguises them at the gates of Kholinar:
āYour majesty, youāre going to be a woman.ā
āFine,ā Elhokar said.
Kaladin started. Heād have expected an objection. Judging by the way that Shallan seemed to stifle a quip, sheād been expecting one too.
āYou see,ā she said instead, āI donāt think you can keep from carrying yourself like a king, so I figure that if you look like a highborn lighteyed woman, itās less likely that youāll be memorable to the guards who--ā
āI said it was fine, Lightweaver,ā Elhokar said. āWe mustnāt waste time. My city and nation are in peril.ā
--Oathbringer, chapter 61
We see Elhokar trying to learn the balance between bravery and recklessness:
āYou were right to recommend caution, Windrunner. My instinct is to rush in. Thatās wrong, isnāt it? I must be prudent and careful.ā
--Oathbringer, chapter 61
And later:
āPrudence,ā the king said softly. āWe mustnāt simply rush in and fall to whatever darkness seized the palace, but we also canāt afford to be inactive.ā
He stood up straighter. Shallan had grown so accustomed to seeing Elhokar as an afterthought--a fault of the way Dalinar, increasingly, had been treating him. But there was an earnest determination to him, and yes, even a regal bearing.
Yes, she thought, taking another Memory of Elhokar, Yes, you are king. And youĀ can live up to your fatherās legacy.ā
--Oathbringer, chapter 62
Heās trying to absorb all the direction heās ever been given on how to be a leader. Heās trying to make up for lost time.
āA king needs accurate information to act correctly.ā
--Oathbringer, chapter 62
āWaiting and trusting those whom you have empowered is the soul of kingship.ā
--Oathbringer, chapter 62
As thrilled as I was to see these examples of Elhokar trying hard to learn to be a good king, there is a fatal edge to it. He cannot possibly do enough at this point.
āPerhaps the liar here is me--lying to tell myself I could do this, that I could be a fraction of the man my father was. No, donāt interrupt me, Dalinar. Let me have my say. Voidbringers? Ancient cities full of wonder? The Desolations?ā Elhokar shook his head. āPerhaps...perhaps Iām a fine king. Not extraordinary, but not an abject failure. But in the face of these events, the world needs better than fine.ā
--Oathbringer, chapter 12
This is the painful truth. Elhokar is not the ruler they need right now. Heās not a leader, like his father was. Heās not a scholar, like his sister. Heās not a Surgebinder, tapping into great powers to amplify his abilities and perceptions. Heās not even Adolin, with natural charm and a deep inner assurance that he can do well at whatever he attempts.
He knows heās deficient. But he tries anyway.
Most of his time in Kholinar he spends listening to the advice of those around him. He leads them, but asks for and defers to their counsel.
Ahh, heās doing well, I thought. Heās got this. Like Shallan, I thought āYes, you are king, and you are becoming equal to the legends!ā
And then Wit gave his perspective.
āKing Elhokar? Here?ā
āHeās determined to save the city.ā
āMost days, Elhokar has trouble saving face, let alone cities.ā
āI like him,ā Shallan said. āDespite his ā¦ Elhokarness.ā
āHe does grow on you, I suppose. Like a fungus.ā
āHe really wants to do what is right. You should hear him talk about it lately. He wants to be remembered as a good king.ā
āVanity.ā
āYou donāt care about how youāll be remembered?ā
āIāll remember myself, which is enough. Elhokar though, he worries about the wrong things. His father wore a simple crown because he needed no reminder of his authority. Elhokar wears a simple crown because he worries that something more lavish might make people look at it, instead of at him. He doesnāt want the competition.ā
--Oathbringer, chapter 68
As wary as I am of Hoidās motivations in general, I usually trust his perspective on people. This, though, was jarring.
Hoid completely dismisses Elhokar as clumsy and vain. And while I want to believe Elhokarās efforts to become better have made an enormous difference, Hoid sees the broader picture.
Elhokar has been trying to improve himself, yes, but why? Is it only out of vanity? Is he mainly concerned with how others see him?
āIāll remember myself, which is enough. Elhokar though, he worries about the wrong things.ā
Hoid knows that what other people think, doesnāt matter (...ohh, if Hoid knows anything, itās this). And heās right that Elhokar does not understand.
I have to admit it. Elhokarās changes are rooted in how he wants others to see him. He is not naturally heroic -- he is trying to learn behaviors that make him seem heroic instead. He does not know what to do. He has the wrong instincts. He is focused on externals. The internal changes, the humility, all the truths heās dealing with, are all byproducts of this one blank, unholy truth: Elhokar does not know how to be a GOOD king, but he does not want to be SEEN as a bad one.
I think he knows all of this. I think he is fully aware of his inadequacy and his limitations, and is doing what he can anyway, for the only reason he cares about. All the while knowing that he is not good enough.
Not being good enough is no excuse. You have to work with what you have.
āThere are few people remaining to whom I can still be a hero, Radiant. This city. My son. Storms. He was a baby when I last saw him. Heād be three now. Locked in the palaceā¦ā
--Oathbringer, Chapter 74
I want to scream from the rooftops, as much as I love this next part, ALWAYS be wary when Shallan wants to make a sketch of what you could be:
Elhokar wasĀ a good man. In his heart, at least. Shouldnāt that matter most?
--Oathbringer, chapter 74
I agree, and I have the same question.
āWeāll save them,ā Shallan whispered. āYouāll save them. It will be all right.ā
Elhokar watched silently as she filled in the shading and finished the picture. Once she lifted her pencil, Elhokar reached past her and rested his fingers on the page. It depicted Elhokar kneeling on the ground, beaten down, clothing ragged. But he looked upward, outward, chin raised. He wasnāt beaten. No, this man was noble, regal.
āIs that what I look like?ā he whispered.
āYes.ā Itās what you could be, at least.Ā
āMay I...may I have it?ā
She lacquered the page, then handed it to him.
āThank you.ā Storms. He almost seemed to be in tears!
He isnāt hopeless; he just lacks skills and understanding. These sorts of problems can be fixed in anyone, given enough timeā¦
--Oathbringer, chapter 74
But we donāt have time. Weāre already in the palace.
āAesudan,ā Elhokar said, his voice pained. He stepped forward, extending his hand. āYouāre not well. Please, come with me.ā
--Oathbringer, chapter 84
For all his kindness towards her, his wife is harsh in response; yet, again, not entirely wrong:
āOh, Elhokar,ā the queen was saying. āYou were ever so oblivious. Your father had grand plans, but you...all you ever wanted to do was sit in his shadow.ā
--Oathbringer, chapter 84
Too late to decide on a purpose now. Elhokar cannot save his wife from the Unmade.
I want to pause to call attention to this lovely moment between father and son. Gavinor, 3 years old and traumatized, is crying and wonāt come to his father.
Then this:
Elhokar whispered something to his son. Kaladin couldnāt hear the words, but the child stopped weeping. He looked up, blinked away tears, and finally let his father pick him up. Elhokar cradled the child, who in turn clutched his stuffed soldier.
--Oathbringer, chapter 84
There were many times during my reading of these books that I could not imagine Elhokar as a father. This makes me long to see more of him as a dad.
I am not going to talk at length about what happened next. What happened, who did it, who didnāt prevent it, those are all entire worlds of their own. I feel like those are separate posts, and Iāll write them eventually. Right now, there are only two details that matter for Elhokarās character.
First, he held the sketch as he said the Ideals. I love this, though it seems like he was, even in his last moments, trying hard to live up to an image of himself, instead of reaching for something internal. (Donāt think Iām not pained by writing sentences like that! It hurts to write it, to realize it...)
Second, that he was saying Ideals at all. The symbols he saw in mirrors, his obsession with truths, his increased artistic ability, even saying that Pattern looked familiar...he had been pursued by a cryptic spren for a long time. He was on the cusp of greater ability, a single word away from becoming something better. It wasnāt enough. He didnāt have enough time.
āFleet kept running,ā Kaladin growled, getting back under Elhokarās arm.
āWhat?ā
āHe couldn't win, but he kept running. And when the storm caught him, it didn't matter that heād died, because heād run for all he had.ā
-- Words of Radiance, chapter 82
Almighty, my heart...
āWe all die in the end, you see,ā Kaladin said. āSo I guess what truly matters is just how well you've run. And Elhokar, you've kept running since your father was killed, even if you screw up all the stormingĀ time.ā
--Words of Radiance, chapter 82
And he did. He made a ton of mistakes. But he never stopped trying.
Anya is live and ready to show you everything. Watch her strip, dance, and perform exclusive shows just for you. Interact in real-time and make your fantasies come true.
ā Live Streamingā Interactive Chatā Private Showsā HD Quality
Anya is LIVE right now
FREE
Free to watch ā¢ No registration required ā¢ HD streaming
Everyone loves Adolin. Even my boyfriend loves Adolin and he usually only likes psychotic edgelords. I named my latest plant after Adolin. Adolin is everyoneās family.
