AG of D

So there is one part of humanity, who created every human being that ever was. And those people are women, and not men.

But according to the extras: Even a basically (brain) dead person should have more freedom, than a woman?

It is her body that builds every little cell...Men give nothing more than less than half of the plan. Only her body creates the human being. Without the woman, there is no new human being. Her body suffers

If a living, breathing human is going to die, when nearly a corpse had not consented to give the needed organ...than the next to nothing without the woman, should have have more rights, than the woman, who is also a human being...? Does not sound logical to me.

I mean, I could get behind the reasoning if you argued abortion should be a human right.

Law, ethics, morality...have been changing since the beginning of time. So why not add abortion as a human right?

You lack clear empathy for other women. You can decide for yourself to have as many children until your teeth fall out, but why would you deny another woman agency regarding her own body. Are you jealous, mabybe?

I hope not due to a religion a petty man created to enslave women? I know the choice is wide regarding this topic. There are so many religions that fit the description.

Asking this as one of these women, "who keep their legs closed", because she has not even an ounce of attraction to these "walking abortions".

And know what? A woman could have as many abortions as she likes, even though I - very likely- will never need one.

I would be pro-life if I was an atheist. Killing babies is wrong, you don’t have to be religious to understand this.

OP, this is a fairy tale. It won´t happen. Women and men will have sex without thinking about babys.

Sex drive is a natural consequence of our species of being alive, if you are an animal with a female and male in it. It is a natural law.

I am an outlier...I do not consider men attractive, I have a clear negative reaction even thinking about having sex with men.

I repeat again: I hate men, I am disgusted by them.

It is literally easy for me, but not for so many other women.

Honestly, I do wish that women would not sleep with men in masses, but I know and I am nearly sure, you are also aware: That won´t happen.

My natural state of being is not being with a man, not being in close contact with a man and definitely and 100 % not sleeping with a man.

I hate man, but I do have empathy for other women, who desire men. I wish them well, with all of my being. Even if they live a life, I cannot understand.

I would be pro-life if I was an atheist. Killing babies is wrong, you don’t have to be religious to understand this.

Bingo. So you are religious.

OP, I was raised in a cult. I know, how much it can influence your point of view. And it is very difficult to completely free yourself from it.

Religion was used so often to enslave us woman and in your words, by chance, you happen to agree with the religion you were raised in?

Does not sound very convincing to me.

Again, it’s undeniable that a fetus is human. I say this automatically makes them a person, but clearly you think there’s some other qualifying factor that makes a human deserving of rights.

A baby is an already born human being, that what you refer is either a clump of cells or a fetus. (Most abortion happen, when the clump of cells is pretty unfeeling). A parasytic organism, that would not exist or even continue to exist without the woman, the already living person, whose agency you desire to take. Your body tries to literally protect you, by flushing out or aborting so many defective clumps of cells.

Menstruation is stopped, if your survival is at stake by being too thin.

Pregnancy is dangerous

And pregnancy is dangerous, does change your body forever and can literally kill you. And the baby will be cared for literally by the woman for most of her life...

And mothers are less likely to be hired as single women. Earn less throughout their lives, as they are the one in charge of caring for the child, work more as their husbands and have to face more often poverty, if they divorce the moid. Single women with children are among the poorest in my country.

I absolutely understand, why some women do not consent to this.

And the men? Well, they do not have to go through pregnancy, naturally. And strangely, they hardly care for their offsprings, plaster their names on it and reap the benefits. In fact, I have heard a male employer say, that he did not fire an underperforming male, because he had a family. They get more frequently raises, when they have a family. And they have an unpaid servant for life, who raises their offsprings, makes all the dirty work in the household and is available for sex.

Dream life...literally...Personally, I do not understand, why a woman would want to fuck with a guy ever. But hey, that is just me.

Even if that clump was a person...

I mean, we could actually even go deeper, that a person is a little more, than a cluster of differentiated cells that solely is dependant on another person.

Because even if we call this thing a person, there are clear cases, where a person kills another person, that are acknowledged and consented by human beings.

How can it be, that a living person can die, if a near corpse can decide to not give him his organs?

How can it be, that soldiers are not punished for literally killing people and (sometimes raping women?) And no, they are not only sent in order to protect themselves or their family. So it is not always self-defense

If so let self-defense count, we could argue, that abortion might be also a form of self-defense.

At the end, it comes down to empathy...

OP, at the end, it comes down to the empathy, we feel for other women. I know a woman, who is not solely dependant on her husband, because she had an abortion and another woman, who was terrorized by her husband, since she had no abortion.

Maybe it is the best for the baby...

I am happy, if women can end an unwanted pregnancy... for the mentioned reasons, but also because, who wants to be unwanted by their mother? Who would be the reason of misery for the person you came from?

I´d personally rather being aborted than being unloved, abused...

There exist so many children, whose parents clearly didn´t want them. Where the birth was a mistake, who were abused, killed, tortured and had to suffer so much in life.

I think OP makes the mistake, that he thinks only men are humans

The pro-life movement does not just think of men as humans. We consider the fetus (little human) as a life and it is one worth protecting. Women are also considered in this equation. Despite popular belief, women do not benefit from abortion. Women's mental health are affected by killing their unborn children. Females who have had abortions are more likely to suffer from mental health issues (Medicaid study in California) and do not receive adequate care afterwards (Vincent Rue Study) and suffer deeply from their abortions.

Everyone is a human in the pro-life movement. We don't hate males or females for whatever reason.

It is her body that builds every little cell...Men give nothing more than less than half of the plan. Only her body creates the human being. Without the woman, there is no new human being. Her body suffers

It is true women have the superpower to create human beings and we should be proud of that fact. I'm certainly not ashamed to be apart of the sex that can carry children.

Men's half is a very important part after all we couldn't have the baby if not for their half. It takes two and both sides are equally important.

Law, ethics, morality...have been changing since the beginning of time. So why not add abortion as a human right?

Abortion is not a human right. Our rights extend until it affects the life of another. When a woman is pregnant, there is another life that is involved, the most innocent of them all. Abortion procedures are inhuman, it takes the life of the child and in brutal ways. No one should have the right to end the life of another.

You lack clear empathy for other women. You can decide for yourself to have as many children until your teeth fall out, but why would you deny another woman agency regarding her own body. Are you jealous, maybe?

Nope just concerned for other women because I (and other pro lifers) are concerned for the ladies.

I repeat again: I hate men, I am disgusted by them.

This is a gross sentiment (among other things you said) I see a lot from the other side. I don't see how spreading hate on the other sex helps your side one bit. Division causes nothing but more pain. Men and women are equally important and needed in daily life. They are usually the ones who do jobs none of the women like (oil riggers, firefighting, and more physical straining jobs) as well as the other half to creating life. If you want to make change you should try getting others on your side, not hating on half of the population, it just draws people away from your cause...Not that I want your abortion stance to draw more people.

You can do whatever you want with your body. As long as you don't effect the life of another (life in the womb included) I don't care.

OP, I was raised in a cult. I know, how much it can influence your point of view. And it is very difficult to completely free yourself from it.

Religion was used so often to enslave us woman and in your words, by chance, you happen to agree with the religion you were raised in?

I curious as to what cult you were raised in. Everyone's environment influences how they turn out later in life, in different ways for everyone. For religions people leave their religions they were raised in and others stay. It's different for everyone. Happens a lot. Around 93% of America was Christian in the 60s, not anymore (not even close). A lot of people left.

Also the pro life movement is a lot more divisive then you think. There's Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, and more. Men and women are in the movement as well.

I agree there are some religions that don't treat women fairly at all. Not all of them though. Some religion may have mistreated women, but some religion has also helped women elevate their status and gain more rights. After all women are biologically weaker than men, men could easily overpower women if they wanted to. Religion has helped this from happening through morals.

And pregnancy is dangerous, does change your body forever and can literally kill you. And the baby will be cared for literally by the woman for most of her life...

Abortion is dangerous (whether it's legal or illegal) whether it be the procedures themselves or the mental or physical affects afterwards.

If the woman decides not to give the baby up for adoption, there is pregnancy centers that are designed to help these women (at least in America). If a country doesn't have this, they should.

Taking care of a baby is also not the end of the world and can be quite joyful.

And the men? Well, they do not have to go through pregnancy, naturally. And strangely, they hardly care for their offspring's, plaster their names on it and reap the benefits.

Well I agree that men should be held accountable for their children they help to make. I wouldn't mind that being enshrined in the law.

If so let self-defense count, we could argue, that abortion might be also a form of self-defense.

Not a form of self defense. Having the baby doesn't mean demise for the women. It is questioned whether we ever need abortions since technology has advanced so far that we could just have the woman give birth early and take care of the early birthed baby for any health complicated pregnancies. The baby poses no threat so it can't be a form of self defense.

The fetus cannot be considered a parasite either sense the women and the child are from the same species.

At the end, it comes down to empathy...

OP, at the end, it comes down to the empathy, we feel for other women. I know a woman, who is not solely dependant on her husband, because she had an abortion and another woman, who was terrorized by her husband, since she had no abortion.

Maybe it is the best for the baby...

I am happy, if women can end an unwanted pregnancy... for the mentioned reasons, but also because, who wants to be unwanted by their mother? Who would be the reason of misery for the person you came from?

I´d personally rather being aborted than being unloved, abused...

There exist so many children, whose parents clearly didn´t want them. Where the birth was a mistake, who were abused, killed, tortured and had to suffer so much in life.

My father should have not become a parent, honestly.

I sorry to hear about all those experiences of those people you know and for the ones that occurred in your own. Also can take years for the affects of abortion to actually take affect, but they do come. Life can be very cruel.

Any hardship the child might have in their life does not diminish the importance of their life. I do think that everyone should work to make a better system for children who may have been unwanted by their mothers for whatever reason. We shouldn't be killing humans with unfortunate lives though.

Not really... sperm is a mindless directionless blob of cells that serves no purpose if not utilized by a woman's egg. It is the female reproductive system that does all the heavy lifting in fertilization and reproduction. The division of labor (so to speak) is not really comparable and definitely not "equal."

"Abortion is not a human right. Our rights extend until it affects the life of another. When a woman is pregnant, there is another life that is involved, the most innocent of them all. Abortion procedures are inhuman, it takes the life of the child and in brutal ways. No one should have the right to end the life of another."

But in opposing abortion, you are granting these exceptional rights to babies in gestation. Why does the baby's right to life hold precedence over the woman's right to her health? Why does the baby have the right to jeopardize the woman's health by residing in her body?

"I agree there are some religions that don't treat women fairly at all. Not all of them though. Some religion may have mistreated women, but some religion has also helped women elevate their status and gain more rights. After all women are biologically weaker than men, men could easily overpower women if they wanted to. Religion has helped this from happening through morals."

Can you name one religion that doesn't purport that women are the property of their fathers and husbands? Can you name one religion that grants women status elevated beyond any man, materially, here on earth? The net harm organized religion has caused womankind far outweighs any cutesy little privileges or titles it awards the ones who do stay in line.

"I don't see how spreading hate on the other sex helps your side one bit. Division causes nothing but more pain. Men and women are equally important and needed in daily life. They are usually the ones who do jobs none of the women like (oil riggers, firefighting, and more physical straining jobs) as well as the other half to creating life."

First of all what are you talking about "jobs none of the women like"? 😭 There are tons of women in physically demanding jobs, always have been to some extent. I personally know a number of female firefighter paramedics, and was a volunteer firefighter for a time myself. I have a cousin who was just promoted to fire chief in her district. Just because you and the company you keep don't like to get your hands dirty doesn't mean it's the case for all, or even the majority, of women.

"If you want to make change you should try getting others on your side, not hating on half of the population, it just draws people away from your cause…"

We could say the same about your movement. If you want to get people on your side, maybe you should stop diminishing the importance of bodily autonomy in half of the population. Maybe you should focus instead on the men that rape, coerce, and financially manipulate women into having sex and going through pregnancy. Targeting the root of the cause would reduce abortion and abortion related complications, psychological impact, and deaths on a far wider scale than outright banning abortion ever could.

"Not a form of self defense. Having the baby doesn't mean demise for the women. It is questioned whether we ever need abortions since technology has advanced so far that we could just have the woman give birth early and take care of the early birthed baby for any health complicated pregnancies. The baby poses no threat so it can't be a form of self defense."

That's just not true. With the advancement of medicine and medical technology, pregnancy has become a lot less risky, but it's still a massive health risk to any woman, that's assuming they do have access to reliable maternal health care. Women still die from pregnancy related complications during pregnancy and childbirth.

Someone existing within your body is a threat to your life, whether it's intended as one or not.

"Abortion is dangerous (whether it's legal or illegal) whether it be the procedures themselves or the mental or physical affects afterwards."

Both are useless without the other therefore equally important. None of the other reproductive processes start without it. 

But in opposing abortion, you are granting these exceptional rights to babies in gestation. Why does the baby's right to life hold precedence over the woman's right to her health? Why does the baby have the right to jeopardize the woman's health by residing in her body?

The woman's life is not jeopardized. It's argued that there isn't any medical reason for an abortion. There are procedures to give birth to a live child where both parties are able to survive. In most cases (90 something percent of abortions) the woman had sex knowing there was a possibility of conceiving a child. Why would killing the child for no reason help anyone? 

Can you name one religion that doesn't purport that women are the property of their fathers and husbands? Can you name one religion that grants women status elevated beyond any man, materially, here on earth? The net harm organized religion has caused womankind far outweighs any cutesy little privileges or titles it awards the ones who do stay in line. 

I can't think of any that make women higher than men (and there shouldn't be, there also shouldn't be any that say men are better than women either), but there are ones that say we are equal. Christianity has been misinterpreted many times into saying that women are the properties of men, but in reality it says (in marriage) they have equal say over the other. Also scholars have said that there is a correlation between the spread of Christianity and the better treatment of women. You think without a moral compass (religion) men would treat women like princesses or queens when physically they are much stronger than us? I think it would be an even more horrible world without religion. Also religion tells everyone to stay in line with literally everyone of them pretty much (men and women) to the higher power. 

First of all what are you talking about "jobs none of the women like"? 😭 There are tons of women in physically demanding jobs, always have been to some extent. I personally know a number of female firefighter paramedics, and was a volunteer firefighter for a time myself. I have a cousin who was just promoted to fire chief in her district. Just because you and the company you keep don't like to get your hands dirty doesn't mean it's the case for all, or even the majority, of women. 

I know that not all women are the same with what they like to do. I'm just saying in general those aren't the types of jobs women go for. If we got rid of all the men we’d have a severe deficit of people in that department. Not hating on the women who are in those departments either by the way, do what you like. 

We could say the same about your movement. If you want to get people on your side, maybe you should stop diminishing the importance of bodily autonomy in half of the population. Maybe you should focus instead on the men that rape, coerce, and financially manipulate women into having sex and going through pregnancy. Targeting the root of the cause would reduce abortion and abortion related complications, psychological impact, and deaths on a far wider scale than outright banning abortion ever could.  

Bodily autonomy that kills another person's right to live? We all have limits to our bodily autonomy with the laws. Also 1% if even of abortions are rape. Men also coerce women to abort their child because of inconvenience to themselves quite a bit too.  Pro life people are against all those things you said and murder (abortions). And how do we stop those things from happening? We have laws against rape and yet can't physically stop them from doing it. It's not possible to completely stop people from doing things, laws can only do so much (abortion in this case too, but banning it would cause less deaths). Considering the fact that about 73 million babies die a year, letting abortion continue is the wrong move. 

That's just not true. With the advancement of medicine and medical technology, pregnancy has become a lot less risky, but it's still a massive health risk to any woman, that's assuming they do have access to reliable maternal health care. Women still die from pregnancy related complications during pregnancy and childbirth. 

Women also die from abortions, performed by a medical person or not. They are dangerous either way. And with abortions there's always one person who dies. 

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But there literally are instances where a woman’s life is in danger, because of pregnancy. Instances where the pregnancy is not even viable, as is the case with an ectopic pregnancy. Banning abortion has fatal consequences for all pregnant women, not just the ones who elect for abortions.

Josseli Barnica and Navaeh Crain were two women who died in Texas because doctors refused to perform abortions in a timely manner while they were actively miscarrying or, in Crain’s case, already in sepsis. Neither were previously considering abortion, and both wanted their babies. They experienced random medical emergencies that can happen with pregnancy and although their babies could not have been saved, they themselves could have and should have been. This kind of medical malpractice will only become more commonplace the more restricted abortion care is. Unrestricted abortion is a necessary evil, so to speak, to minimize loss of life until we eliminate the issues that push women to get abortions in the first place. There is a reason that underdeveloped countries, where sexism is more rampant, the population is predominantly poor, and there is limited access to contraceptives and education, see significantly higher rates of abortion regardless of whether it’s legal.

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I know that it’s not possible to completely dissuade everyone from breaking the law, but we could be doing a lot better than we are right now when it comes to prosecuting and preventing rapists. A good start would be to enact much harsher punishments for more “minor” crimes like voyeurism, harassment, public indecency, stalking, verbal or written threats, etc. These lesser crimes are precursors for more violent crimes like rape. If men realize that they are unable to get away with lesser crimes, the deterrent effect will be multiplied when it comes to more serious offenses, and a significantly smaller number of them will escalate to rape or other sexually motivated violent offenses. Sexual predators are more than capable of controlling themselves, they just choose not to when they think they won’t face any consequences for their behavior.

Improvements in sex education and knowledge of women’s reproductive health will also lower rates of unwanted pregnancies. We have men out here who think the pullout method is foolproof, and women who believe tracking their menstrual cycles and only having sex during certain phases of it is adequate birth control. You can tell people to just abstain all you want, but if they don’t know exactly what from and why they’re abstaining, they just won’t do it. It’s easy to hand wave and just say they should know better but that’s not going to actually do anything to decrease the number of unwanted pregnancies in the world or the number of women seeking abortions.

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Poor choice of words on my part WRT the religion talk; I wasn’t asking about religion that places all women above all men, I meant religion that places women meeting certain qualifications in higher regard to men that don’t meet those qualifications. Or even a religion that genuinely places men and women on equal standing if they are said to be equals.

I disagree with the notion that religion is what keeps men in line. Religion has been around for thousands of years and in all that time men have been raping and killing like their lives depend on it. I would argue that it’s the opposite, that the inviolability of religion in our current and past cultures is what allows men to get away with treating women as subhuman, all under the guise of piety and devotion to a higher power. You can insist that Christianity is misinterpreted and misrepresented until the cows come home, but it doesn’t change the fact that for all of its existence men have used it to subordinate women.

I’m getting the sense that you believe that men are predisposed to violence and cruelty by virtue of being male. I don’t think this is the case at all. Being physically stronger doesn’t correlate to higher levels of aggression. Men have trained themselves into their hatred of women over thousands of years of instilling cultural norms, traditions, and laws that encourage and reward women-hating behavior. They can certainly train themselves out of it, too.

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The woman’s body does most of the work, I agree with that one. It's just that the child is just as much of the man’s as the woman’s. It takes two, that's all I was saying.

But there literally are instances where a woman’s life is in danger, because of pregnancy. Instances where the pregnancy is not even viable, as is the case with an ectopic pregnancy. Banning abortion has fatal consequences for all pregnant women, not just the ones who elect for abortions.

It's been argued that there is no reason for an abortions, but if for whatever there is a case I have never known anyone to be against this one. At least for an ectopic pregnancy where the mothers life is in danger. If the fetus is already dead too.

Josseli Barnica and Navaeh Crain were two women who died in Texas because doctors refused to perform abortions in a timely manner while they were actively miscarrying or, in Crain’s case, already in sepsis. Neither were previously considering abortion, and both wanted their babies. They experienced random medical emergencies that can happen with pregnancy and although their babies could not have been saved, they themselves could have and should have been. This kind of medical malpractice will only become more commonplace the more restricted abortion care is. Unrestricted abortion is a necessary evil, so to speak, to minimize loss of life until we eliminate the issues that push women to get abortions in the first place. There is a reason that underdeveloped countries, where sexism is more rampant, the population is predominantly poor, and there is limited access to contraceptives and education, see significantly higher rates of abortion regardless of whether it’s legal.

Those were both sad cases, but they were not because of any abortion ban. There's a lot of misconceptions about the abortion bans, saving the life of the mother is not jeopardized with them. Those cases were clear malpractice. The doctors could've done something earlier and I know at least one of those doctors had a history of malpractice.

Unrestricted abortion is a bad idea. Again, saving the mother is not hindered under the abortion laws pro life people are for. Most abortions are not for that case anyway. Also need to get a really good doctor because there's also been cases where the mothers was told that an abortion was necessary, but that was not the case.

I know that it’s not possible to completely dissuade everyone from breaking the law, but we could be doing a lot better than we are right now when it comes to prosecuting and preventing rapists. A good start would be to enact much harsher punishments for more “minor” crimes like voyeurism, harassment, public indecency, stalking, verbal or written threats, etc. These lesser crimes are precursors for more violent crimes like rape. If men realize that they are unable to get away with lesser crimes, the deterrent effect will be multiplied when it comes to more serious offenses, and a significantly smaller number of them will escalate to rape or other sexually motivated violent offenses. Sexual predators are more than capable of controlling themselves, they just choose not to when they think they won’t face any consequences for their behavior.

I believe in harsher punishments. Specifically with rapists to be castrated. They lose those things for misusing them. Seems far to me. For minor crimes I'm for a little more harsher punishments as well. But I don't see murdering the innocent as a good solution for the time being. The little life did nothing but exist and it's being brutally killed.

Improvements in sex education and knowledge of women’s reproductive health will also lower rates of unwanted pregnancies. We have men out here who think the pullout method is foolproof, and women who believe tracking their menstrual cycles and only having sex during certain phases of it is adequate birth control. You can tell people to just abstain all you want, but if they don’t know exactly what from and why they’re abstaining, they just won’t do it. It’s easy to hand wave and just say they should know better but that’s not going to actually do anything to decrease the number of unwanted pregnancies in the world or the number of women seeking abortions.

I don't know how much working on the sex education will improve anything. We've kept trying so called improvement and it hasn't helped. So I'm not sure it'll help, but if it does then I'm all for decreasing the deaths.

I disagree with the notion that religion is what keeps men in line. Religion has been around for thousands of years and in all that time men have been raping and killing like their lives depend on it. I would argue that it’s the opposite, that the inviolability of religion in our current and past cultures is what allows men to get away with treating women as subhuman, all under the guise of piety and devotion to a higher power. You can insist that Christianity is misinterpreted and misrepresented until the cows come home, but it doesn’t change the fact that for all of its existence men have used it to subordinate women.

Religion keeps people in line in general. It outlines guides to getting closer to the higher power, whatever it may be. It makes humans out to be more than just stardust. Christianity really is misinterpreted a whole lot. And no, men have not used it to subordinate women. It actually made it easier for women. Christianity gave more certain guidelines for men. Before Christianity men could just sleep with whoever they wanted despite having a wife, they could treat women however they wanted, they could kill their kids if they weren't deemed “adequate” , and just in general gave women more of a voice. We take for granted all the rights we do have and forget how we got them (depending on which country we're in). Christianity as a whole helped women (and people in general).

Jesus was seen as radical for allowing women to follow him (Mary Magdalene & I think Joanna was one I heard about too). Women were a great help in the spread of Christianity. There was a correlation of better treatment of women and the spread of Christianity.

I’m getting the sense that you believe that men are predisposed to violence and cruelty by virtue of being male. I don’t think this is the case at all. Being physically stronger doesn’t correlate to higher levels of aggression. Men have trained themselves into their hatred of women over thousands of years of instilling cultural norms, traditions, and laws that encourage and reward women-hating behavior. They can certainly train themselves out of it, too.

I actually believe people in general are more inclined to selfish ways. I agree that being stronger doesn't mean being more aggressive. I was just saying that humans tend to want power and that having some kind of moral guidelines would help buffer that if not stop it completely.

I don't know if I necessarily agree with this “hatred of women” being the reason for the traditional systems and laws very much. It depends on what we're talking about I guess. Some traditions stick though because they work out pretty well (not all the time, but most of the time). Although we've already gotten past old traditional ways in some areas and it hasn't worked towards our benefit so I'd believe that those traditions were around forever for a reason.

I've seen hatred for the other sex on both sides and some are joking, some are not. For the ones that aren't joking, they definitely need a reality check that airing out their hatred and demonizing the other sex doesn't help anything. It just causes more division and more problems. The sexes are complementary and we shouldn't have so much hatred for one another. Hate the actions done by some of the other sex but not everyone who is that sex. I've seen way too many people throw the whole group in the trash for the actions of one part of the group. It's quite sad.

I appreciate your civility as well. I enjoy these discussions, I think it’s important to understand the perspective of “the other side” when it comes to issues like this. I don’t find it productive to just sling insults back and forth.

The pro-life movement does not just think of men as humans. We consider the fetus (little human) as a life and it is one worth protecting. Women are also considered in this equation. Despite popular belief, women do not benefit from abortion. Women's mental health are affected by killing their unborn children. Females who have had abortions are more likely to suffer from mental health issues (Medicaid study in California) and do not receive adequate care afterwards (Vincent Rue Study) and suffer deeply from their abortions. Everyone is a human in the pro-life movement. We don't hate males or females for whatever reason.

In all kindness, I do not suscribe to your belief system, therefore it is pretty irrelevant to me, if you believe this or not.

Men's half is a very important part after all we couldn't have the baby if not for their half. It takes two and both sides are equally important.

It is the women´s body who builts the baby, who has the greater costs in that process, who takes the greater risk, therefore the opinion of a man is pretty irrelevant regarding abortion.

Abortion is not a human right. Our rights extend until it affects the life of another. When a woman is pregnant, there is another life that is involved, the most innocent of them all. Abortion procedures are inhuman, it takes the life of the child and in brutal ways. No one should have the right to end the life of another.

Oh, but it should be. The right for all women to abort, if they want to or to keep it, only if they want to.

The child is a parasyte that merely lives dependant on her life and body. So it should be absolutely possible for the woman in question to end this situation, if she wishes it.

By the way, that means you are even against all abortion, where the life of the woman is at stake? Even when the child is already dead inside the poor women and it might cost her life?

You would honestly rather traumatize a woman to have "give birth" to a corpse?

And you would rather condemn a child to live in utter pain, if the defects are too gave?

That also means that are blind and deaf to the misery of the oh-so-importan-life, if the child suffers due to the circumstances it is birthed into? Sometimes it is the correct decision to abort, if you can literally cannot afford a child or if the child would face neglect or abuse. There are enough horrible parents on this earth.

You lack clear empathy for other women. You can decide for yourself to have as many children until your teeth fall out, but why would you deny another woman agency regarding her own body. Are you jealous, maybe? Nope just concerned for other women because I (and other pro lifers) are concerned for the ladies.

Ah, so you show your empathy by taking away their agency? That´s a far cry from empathy, if you ask me...

This is a gross sentiment (among other things you said) I see a lot from the other side. I don't see how spreading hate on the other sex helps your side one bit. Division causes nothing but more pain. Men and women are equally important and needed in daily life. They are usually the ones who do jobs none of the women like (oil riggers, firefighting, and more physical straining jobs) as well as the other half to creating life. If you want to make change you should try getting others on your side, not hating on half of the population, it just draws people away from your cause...Not that I want your abortion stance to draw more people. You can do whatever you want with your body. As long as you don't effect the life of another (life in the womb included) I don't care.

I honestly don´t know if I should cry or laugh about this.

I think, I prefer laughing.

I hope, you are as concerned with the misogynistic moids, who rape and dehumanize women, as with a woman like me, who just wishes to stay the fuck away from men.

I curious as to what cult you were raised in. Everyone's environment influences how they turn out later in life, in different ways for everyone. For religions people leave their religions they were raised in and others stay. It's different for everyone. Happens a lot. Around 93% of America was Christian in the 60s, not anymore (not even close). A lot of people left. Also the pro life movement is a lot more divisive then you think. There's Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, and more. Men and women are in the movement as well. I agree there are some religions that don't treat women fairly at all. Not all of them though. Some religion may have mistreated women, but some religion has also helped women elevate their status and gain more rights. After all women are biologically weaker than men, men could easily overpower women if they wanted to. Religion has helped this from happening through morals.

I am not American and I hardly share sensitive information like this. According to my religion teacher in middle school, the belief I had was classsified as a cult. And I went to a catholic school...I got additional religious education by the church, we went to and by my father. As a child I was scared of god, greatly...All the sins I committed by being basically alive.

Show me a religion who does treat women well? Their common ground seems to be that they all oppress women, only the degree differs greatly.

I think I have an interesting book for you:

The better half - On the genetic superiority of women

by Sharon Moalem

And religion has been used for thousands of years to justify oppression and evil deeds...in the name of god. Murder seems to be absolutely

Also the pro life movement is a lot more divisive then you think. There's Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, and more. Men and women are in the movement as well.

Spectacular, so many fractions that have something against women having agency and a choice in that matter. I am sorry, but this is disheartening for me.

Abortion is dangerous (whether it's legal or illegal) whether it be the procedures themselves or the mental or physical affects afterwards.

Self-inflicted abortion or by an untrained person is absolutely dangerous, by a trained person and legally, not more dangerous than other medical operations. The sooner the better even.

Some woman go to great length to get rid of the child. Allowing it makes the process safer...Often the woman has to wait too long to abort.

If the woman decides not to give the baby up for adoption, there is pregnancy centers that are designed to help these women (at least in America). If a country doesn't have this, they should.

She still has to go through an unwanted pregnancy that changes her body. Some women just don´t want to go through it.

And the child suffers due to the process. An adopted child often has issues with feelings of abandonment. It is not as clean and easy, as you make it sound.

Taking care of a baby is also not the end of the world and can be quite joyful.

Who are you, that you can decide for every woman?

Some women aren´t born to be mothers and I absolutely wish for them to stay childless, if they want to.

Additionally there are enough already abused and neglected children on this world.

Not a form of self defense. Having the baby doesn't mean demise for the women. It is questioned whether we ever need abortions since technology has advanced so far that we could just have the woman give birth early and take care of the early birthed baby for any health complicated pregnancies. The baby poses no threat so it can't be a form of self defense.

Again, you cannot say this, without actually knowing the situation of the individual woman. In some cases, it is very well an absolute catastrophe.

The fetus cannot be considered a parasite either sense the women and the child are from the same species.

It very well is, if you like it or not. The child does not give the mother anything useful during pregnancy, but takes from her body important resources.

There is a reason, why pregnancy is not possible, if the women is too thin and lacks nutrients.

I sorry to hear about all those experiences of those people you know and for the ones that occurred in your own. Also can take years for the affects of abortion to actually take affect, but they do come. Life can be very cruel. Any hardship the child might have in their life does not diminish the importance of their life. I do think that everyone should work to make a better system for children who may have been unwanted by their mothers for whatever reason. We shouldn't be killing humans with unfortunate lives though. I do wish you would value yourself more. You're more important than you give yourself credit for. It's just sad.

Thank you, that is nice of you, nevertheless.

A woman having or not having an abortion results both times in some kind of negative feelings.

I´d rather wish only for women, who like to be mothers, to become a parent.

The problem with your stance...it takes agency away from the individual woman due to your own flawed belief system. Just that you understand me right: My own belief system is also flawed, because it is subjective. My moral compass are not rules forced upon others.

However I´d rather not play god, but let the people in question have a choice.

This seems to be a better approach than forcing people, that more often than not leads to tragedy.

You cannot change the fact, that the mothers didn´t want the child...you cannot brainwash people to that degree. The child still knows and still suffers. Even within the most stable families.

We all wish to know, where we come from. Preventing this, takes even agency away from the child.

I know this and I don't subscribe to yours either. Was just explaining my side. 

It is the women's body who builds the baby, who has the greater costs in that process, who takes the greater risk, therefore the opinion of a man is pretty irrelevant regarding abortion.

It's the man's child as well, he should have some say in it. Losing a child is an unimaginable pain. There are ways to help a woman through pregnancies. There's risk with everything.

By the way, that means you are even against all abortion, where the life of the woman is at stake? Even when the child is already dead inside the poor woman and it might cost her life? 

I said this later on but there is not any medical necessary abortion. There's ways to make sure both parties live. Also there's abortion methods where they inject the would-be mother and it kills their child and they do eventually give birth to a dead baby. 

And  you would rather condemn a child to live in utter pain, if the defects are too gave? 

What defects? What kind of defects make someone unworthy of living? 

I hope, you are as concerned with the misogynistic moids, who rape and dehumanize women, as with a woman like me, who just wishes to stay the fuck away from men. 

Oh I am. I personally think they should castrate the men who rape (death is too nice). Let them lose their manhood that they already gave up when they decided it was a good idea to use it for ungentlemanly like behavior.

I am not American and I hardly share sensitive information like this. According to my religion teacher in middle school, the belief I had was classified as a cult. And I went to a catholic school...I got additional religious education by the church, we went to and by my father. As a child I was scared of god, greatly...All the sins I committed by being basically alive.

Show me a religion who does treat women well? Their common ground seems to be that they all oppress women, only the degree differs greatly.

Catholicism is not a cult. It's not accepted as a cult by many scholars and such. The only people I've heard call it a cult are those who hate it. Fear of God is not supposed to necessarily mean being terrified of God. I think it just means respect and knowing that God is powerful. But who knows? 

Believe it or not Christianity helped women a lot. Turns out the belief that “all humans are created in the image of God” makes people respect women a whole lot more. Scholars have pointed to a correlation of the spread Christianity and the better treatment of women. That's not to say that there haven't been “Christian” attacks on women. It's a large religion and it's been around for a long time, there's gonna be hiccups here and there. It's because humans naturally just suck. Human instincts aren't always good. 

Self-inflicted abortion or by an untrained person is absolutely dangerous, by a trained person and legally, not more dangerous than other medical operations. The sooner the better even. 

The risks of abortions are underreported. The complications are not seen as necessary to report for some reason. Also with the abortion pill, those untrained people taking it into their own hands will rise. Abortion ends with a death no matter what. 

I think I have an interesting book for you: 

Also if you suggest a book for me to read I'll suggest some videos for you. Live Action has a lot of videos about it. There is one of the people I look at. They go into detail about the procedures, the effects, and real life experiences of people who have had abortions, ex-abortionists, abortion survivors, etc …etc. It's interesting and heartbreaking. You can do what you want though. 

I don't think one sex is better than the other. We have different characteristics. We’re all different and that's fine. 

It very well is, if you like it or not. The child does not give the mother anything useful during pregnancy, but takes from her body important resources. 

Actually the fetus gives fetal cells which helps the mothers immune system and overall health. These can potentially even help long term as well. So the little one does give back. It's give and take both ways. Even aborted babies help their mother. 

However I´d rather not play god, but let the people in question have a choice. 

By letting others play God and decide who is worthy of living and who isn't? 

You cannot change the fact that the mothers didn't want the child...you cannot brainwash people to that degree. The child still knows and still suffers. Even within the most stable families. 

Everyone suffers (whether they are “wanted” or not), doesn't give anyone the right to murder for that reason. People can overcome their suffering though, it's possible. Can be hard, but it's possible.  

Nope, because it is not his body, therefore not his decision. I would advise him to find a willing partner. There should be plenty outside.

Catholicism is not a cult. It's not accepted as a cult by many scholars and such. The only people I've heard call it a cult are those who hate it. Fear of God is not supposed to necessarily mean being terrified of God. I think it just means respect and knowing that God is powerful. But who knows?

I am not catholic, I merely went to a catholic school. But let´s open the cup of worms. This confession is built on many dead bodies and lots of opression. And with all the martyrs/saints in there, can we be sure, it is a nice "religion"?

Actually I disagree. Unfortunately an aspect religious people/Christians got often told wrongly.

Respect is given absolutely voluntarily as a sign that you value something or somebody. You are aware of their worth to you and/or others. The positive attitude and acts towards it or her/him are a result of this process.

Fear is a reaction of your body, because a) a situation is foreign to you. b) You react to a dangerous situation or person. Your positive reaction to this it/her/him merely persists, because you are aware that the other party could hurt you. This is not real respect, merely fear that hides it ugly head behind a nicer appearance.

Believe it or not Christianity helped women a lot. Turns out the belief that “all humans are created in the image of God” makes people respect women a whole lot more.

I don´t believe it, because I know, it is absolutely untrue. Just genesis alone disproves your point of view.

"I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you" (Gen. 3:16)"

Further proof:

Here in the first letter of Paul to Timothy is Eve´s sin even refered as the reason, why men are right to oppress women.

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach or usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed and then Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression...( I Timothy 2:11 - 14)

For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man. Let the women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, so saith the law. And if they learn anything, let them ask their husbands at thome; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church (I Corinthians 11:3, 7,9)

Just the parts of the Bible I show you here, emphasize that women are nothing other than underlings to men and are at their service.

Surely it did help men, but women? Not at all.

By letting others play God and decide who is worthy of living and who isn't?

No, by allowing women to have agency over their bodies, freeing them from one more shackle that men love to place upon us.

Fortunately, we do not need god to end a pregnancy.

Everyone suffers (whether they are “wanted” or not), doesn't give anyone the right to murder for that reason. People can overcome their suffering though, it's possible. Can be hard, but it's possible.

I ask you this in all honesty: Are you alright? It is a normal reaction of a human being to avoid misery. A person running over an edge should be helped.

Without the woman, there is no baby, therefore yes, she has a right to end the pregnancy, if she wants to. The clump of cells never develops to a baby, because it needs the woman´s body in order to do so.

Religions always tended to forget the part with "no murder", when they could oppress other groups/foreign countries - unfortunately.

Everyone suffers (whether they are “wanted” or not), doesn't give anyone the right to murder for that reason. People can overcome their suffering though, it's possible. Can be hard, but it's possible.  

Are you alright? Really alright?

Yes, misery cannot be 100 % avoided and sometimes it is necessary to learn. But this is not a misery that can be "overcome" so simply or is even necessary.

Also you've been most kind. I appreciate the civil words.

He still helped cause that child. Also the child has its own body and DNA inside the women's body, it should be protected. It's a life of its own. 

Also that's a general suggestion to find women who won't kill their child. It's a good one. Less dead babies. 

I am not catholic, I merely went to a catholic school. But let´s open the cup of worms. This confession is built on many dead bodies and lots of opression. And with all the martyrs/saints in there,  can we be sure, it is a nice "religion"?

History has been filled with dead bodies and oppression, not just from the Catholic Church. Before and after Christianity, it's a long history of war, killing, and more. It's just humans acting with their nature, religions can ground that in some way. There many people killed for their religion, not just Christians. Although Christianity is the most persecuted (I had to look that one up, it still is the most…And I still kind of don't believe it sometimes) in the world today and has been for a long time, there's still Muslims dying for their faith and Jewish people, and I'm sure more. This isn't an attack on religion, it's one of human nature really. 

Respect is given absolutely voluntarily as a sign that you value something or somebody. You are aware of their worth to you and/or others.  The positive attitude and acts towards it or her/him are a result of this process.

Right. Christians believe God came down in the flesh to go through horrific things (and I do mean horrific, Roman's soldiers were brutal) in order to save us. Even without that the belief that God created us is in itself worthy of respect. 

Hell is essentially just separation from God. If it's bad, that's why. Because Christian belief is that God is where all good comes from and good itself. 

It's with religious context that, “Fear of God,” means that. Without the religious context, sure it does mean absolutely terrified of God. I’m sure that sounds confusing. It isn't meant literally, it is meant in a respectful way. 

"I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you" (Gen. 3:16)"

That's one of the many pains of the fall of humanity. Also this verse and part of the Bible illustrates the fall of the relationship through sin. Or it can also be seen as judgement over Eve. 

Rule doesn't mean oppress and dehumanize the woman. 

As stated before: 

Genesis 1:27-28: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

This verse was used a lot when talking about equality with men and women. He made men and women in His image and gave equal dominion of the Earth to them. 

There's many other verses that can be used for women being equal. 

And in Galatians 3:28:

This verse states, "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." This passage is often used to support the idea of equality in Christ, regardless of social status or gender. 

Many important women in the Bible too such as Judith, Ester, Mary, and more. 

It may suggest that men and women are complementary to one another, but that doesn't mean unequal. 

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach or usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed and then Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression...( I Timothy 2:11 - 14)

For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man. Let the women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, so saith the law. And if they learn anything, let them ask their husbands at thome; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church (I Corinthians 11:3, 7,9)

You need to read the surrounding texts as well. Paul gives instructions on how to pray and prophesy in Church for women. It might be a little different from how he instructs on how men pray and prophesy in Church, but is also highly important. There's a place in Church for both. Also keep silent in certain settings during worship service that would cause conflict.

Also it says in Revelation that sons and daughters will prophesy. 

Later passages and earlier passages clearly have women taking big parts in the Church. They prophecy and pray and it ain't taken in a bad light. 

Jesus was quite unique back in the day for letting women follow as well. Mary Magdalene was one of the followers and she's still respected to this day (not as much as Holy Mary though…Obviously). 

Paul also wrote the verses about men and women in marriage having equal say to each other. 

Just the parts of the Bible I show you here, emphasize that women are nothing other than underlings to men and are at their service. 

Nope, there is a whole lot more to the Bible that you need to look at that puts things in perspective. In a marriage setting it actually sometimes puts the wife above the man with: 

Ephesians 5:25-29: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

Different translations make it,”die for her.” 

Ephesians 5:33: However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

This one is a little more on the equal side. Respect is good. 

And any leading and “patriarchal” way a man is told to act is not to oppress women, but to help in leading to the flourishing of everyone (including women). They are called to put the needs of their wife and children before themselves. 

It's a big book (of many books) with many verses that are constantly taken out of context. 

Jesus said not to have others serve you, but to serve others, that's for everyone not just women. 

Surely it did help men, but women? Not at all. 

It helped bring equality into marriages by promoting that they become one flesh and have equal say over each other's bodies. It was unheard of at the time for women to have any higher standing in public and they were freely exploited back in the day. They could not vote, the men could kill their children if they were “unworthy” or whatever, they weren't allowed to be educated, husbands were able to sleep freely with others, etc…etc… Women did not have nearly as many rights until after Christianity. Most societies didn't have any legal rights for women. 

Many teachings in the New Testament have given women higher standings in their society and women themselves have had a part in the spread of Christianity. The values that the Bible placed on women back in the day were considered radical, it led to many more rights for women throughout the world. 

As stated before the better treatment of women coincided with the spread of Christianity. 

Christianity gave restrictions to men on how to handle themselves. They can't sleep around, they can't cheat, they must put their loved ones ahead of themselves, and more. Of course not every person works like this. As said before, humans are flawed and will act on their own impulse sometimes, which is not for the best. 

No, by allowing women to have agency over their bodies, freeing them from one more shackle that men love to place upon us.

By allowing women to take agency over another person's body. A body that has done no wrong except existing. Not even letting the child live because they are “an inconvenience” for either the man or the woman or both. Men force women to have abortions as well.

And I'm totally for placing more shackles onto men with the children they help to create. They should be responsible for their actions. 

I ask you this in all honesty: Are you alright? It is a normal reaction of a human being to avoid misery. A person running over an edge should be helped. 

Oh trust me, I'm doing better than ever. I'm just not a fan of killing others over misery. The real question is: are you alright? You like to talk sporadically about how you hate men, how they are walking abortions, or other not-so-nice things that lead me thinking you want to murder them all (I don't think you do), which would lead to the extinction of the human race. That kind of talk has never led to good things as the world's history proves it. We are all humans worth protecting and hurting each other is NOT the answer.

The fetus doesn't exactly get a choice on living in misery or not. It's only experience in life is not being “wanted” and being brutally murdered. Doesn't even get a chance at life. 

There are plenty of people who weren't “wanted” and yet are living gratefully out here. Sylvester Stallone being one of those examples (I just wanted to mention him). Experiencing misery doesn't equal murder the kid. 

Religions always tended to forget the part with "no murder", when they could oppress other groups/foreign countries - unfortunately.

That's human nature for you. The need to have power over one another, that's not unique to religion.  We don't value each other enough as we should.  Value over human life does have it's roots in religion though so imagine a world without it.

I appreciate your civility as well. It is rare and the topic is so important to both of us, ...even though I doubt, that we will ever agree.

True I see some awful interactions between people of opposing sides. It makes me sad when I see that. Nothing goes well that way. 

So there is one part of humanity, who created every human being that ever was. And those people are women, and not men.

But according to the extras: Even a basically (brain) dead person should have more freedom, than a woman?

It is her body that builds every little cell...Men give nothing more than less than half of the plan. Only her body creates the human being. Without the woman, there is no new human being. Her body suffers

If a living, breathing human is going to die, when nearly a corpse had not consented to give the needed organ...than the next to nothing without the woman, should have have more rights, than the woman, who is also a human being...? Does not sound logical to me.

I mean, I could get behind the reasoning if you argued abortion should be a human right.

Law, ethics, morality...have been changing since the beginning of time. So why not add abortion as a human right?

You lack clear empathy for other women. You can decide for yourself to have as many children until your teeth fall out, but why would you deny another woman agency regarding her own body. Are you jealous, mabybe?

I hope not due to a religion a petty man created to enslave women? I know the choice is wide regarding this topic. There are so many religions that fit the description.

Asking this as one of these women, "who keep their legs closed", because she has not even an ounce of attraction to these "walking abortions".

And know what? A woman could have as many abortions as she likes, even though I - very likely- will never need one.

I would be pro-life if I was an atheist. Killing babies is wrong, you don’t have to be religious to understand this.

OP, this is a fairy tale. It won´t happen. Women and men will have sex without thinking about babys.

Sex drive is a natural consequence of our species of being alive, if you are an animal with a female and male in it. It is a natural law.

I am an outlier...I do not consider men attractive, I have a clear negative reaction even thinking about having sex with men.

I repeat again: I hate men, I am disgusted by them.

It is literally easy for me, but not for so many other women.

Honestly, I do wish that women would not sleep with men in masses, but I know and I am nearly sure, you are also aware: That won´t happen.

My natural state of being is not being with a man, not being in close contact with a man and definitely and 100 % not sleeping with a man.

I hate man, but I do have empathy for other women, who desire men. I wish them well, with all of my being. Even if they live a life, I cannot understand.

I would be pro-life if I was an atheist. Killing babies is wrong, you don’t have to be religious to understand this.

Bingo. So you are religious.

OP, I was raised in a cult. I know, how much it can influence your point of view. And it is very difficult to completely free yourself from it.

Religion was used so often to enslave us woman and in your words, by chance, you happen to agree with the religion you were raised in?

Does not sound very convincing to me.

Again, it’s undeniable that a fetus is human. I say this automatically makes them a person, but clearly you think there’s some other qualifying factor that makes a human deserving of rights.

A baby is an already born human being, that what you refer is either a clump of cells or a fetus. (Most abortion happen, when the clump of cells is pretty unfeeling). A parasytic organism, that would not exist or even continue to exist without the woman, the already living person, whose agency you desire to take. Your body tries to literally protect you, by flushing out or aborting so many defective clumps of cells.

Menstruation is stopped, if your survival is at stake by being too thin.

Pregnancy is dangerous

And pregnancy is dangerous, does change your body forever and can literally kill you. And the baby will be cared for literally by the woman for most of her life...

And mothers are less likely to be hired as single women. Earn less throughout their lives, as they are the one in charge of caring for the child, work more as their husbands and have to face more often poverty, if they divorce the moid. Single women with children are among the poorest in my country.

I absolutely understand, why some women do not consent to this.

And the men? Well, they do not have to go through pregnancy, naturally. And strangely, they hardly care for their offsprings, plaster their names on it and reap the benefits. In fact, I have heard a male employer say, that he did not fire an underperforming male, because he had a family. They get more frequently raises, when they have a family. And they have an unpaid servant for life, who raises their offsprings, makes all the dirty work in the household and is available for sex.

Dream life...literally...Personally, I do not understand, why a woman would want to fuck with a guy ever. But hey, that is just me.

Even if that clump was a person...

I mean, we could actually even go deeper, that a person is a little more, than a cluster of differentiated cells that solely is dependant on another person.

Because even if we call this thing a person, there are clear cases, where a person kills another person, that are acknowledged and consented by human beings.

How can it be, that a living person can die, if a near corpse can decide to not give him his organs?

How can it be, that soldiers are not punished for literally killing people and (sometimes raping women?) And no, they are not only sent in order to protect themselves or their family. So it is not always self-defense

If so let self-defense count, we could argue, that abortion might be also a form of self-defense.

At the end, it comes down to empathy...

OP, at the end, it comes down to the empathy, we feel for other women. I know a woman, who is not solely dependant on her husband, because she had an abortion and another woman, who was terrorized by her husband, since she had no abortion.

Maybe it is the best for the baby...

I am happy, if women can end an unwanted pregnancy... for the mentioned reasons, but also because, who wants to be unwanted by their mother? Who would be the reason of misery for the person you came from?

I´d personally rather being aborted than being unloved, abused...

There exist so many children, whose parents clearly didn´t want them. Where the birth was a mistake, who were abused, killed, tortured and had to suffer so much in life.

I think OP makes the mistake, that he thinks only men are humans

The pro-life movement does not just think of men as humans. We consider the fetus (little human) as a life and it is one worth protecting. Women are also considered in this equation. Despite popular belief, women do not benefit from abortion. Women's mental health are affected by killing their unborn children. Females who have had abortions are more likely to suffer from mental health issues (Medicaid study in California) and do not receive adequate care afterwards (Vincent Rue Study) and suffer deeply from their abortions.

Everyone is a human in the pro-life movement. We don't hate males or females for whatever reason.

It is her body that builds every little cell...Men give nothing more than less than half of the plan. Only her body creates the human being. Without the woman, there is no new human being. Her body suffers

It is true women have the superpower to create human beings and we should be proud of that fact. I'm certainly not ashamed to be apart of the sex that can carry children.

Men's half is a very important part after all we couldn't have the baby if not for their half. It takes two and both sides are equally important.

Law, ethics, morality...have been changing since the beginning of time. So why not add abortion as a human right?

Abortion is not a human right. Our rights extend until it affects the life of another. When a woman is pregnant, there is another life that is involved, the most innocent of them all. Abortion procedures are inhuman, it takes the life of the child and in brutal ways. No one should have the right to end the life of another.

You lack clear empathy for other women. You can decide for yourself to have as many children until your teeth fall out, but why would you deny another woman agency regarding her own body. Are you jealous, maybe?

Nope just concerned for other women because I (and other pro lifers) are concerned for the ladies.

I repeat again: I hate men, I am disgusted by them.

This is a gross sentiment (among other things you said) I see a lot from the other side. I don't see how spreading hate on the other sex helps your side one bit. Division causes nothing but more pain. Men and women are equally important and needed in daily life. They are usually the ones who do jobs none of the women like (oil riggers, firefighting, and more physical straining jobs) as well as the other half to creating life. If you want to make change you should try getting others on your side, not hating on half of the population, it just draws people away from your cause...Not that I want your abortion stance to draw more people.

You can do whatever you want with your body. As long as you don't effect the life of another (life in the womb included) I don't care.

OP, I was raised in a cult. I know, how much it can influence your point of view. And it is very difficult to completely free yourself from it.

Religion was used so often to enslave us woman and in your words, by chance, you happen to agree with the religion you were raised in?

I curious as to what cult you were raised in. Everyone's environment influences how they turn out later in life, in different ways for everyone. For religions people leave their religions they were raised in and others stay. It's different for everyone. Happens a lot. Around 93% of America was Christian in the 60s, not anymore (not even close). A lot of people left.

Also the pro life movement is a lot more divisive then you think. There's Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, and more. Men and women are in the movement as well.

I agree there are some religions that don't treat women fairly at all. Not all of them though. Some religion may have mistreated women, but some religion has also helped women elevate their status and gain more rights. After all women are biologically weaker than men, men could easily overpower women if they wanted to. Religion has helped this from happening through morals.

And pregnancy is dangerous, does change your body forever and can literally kill you. And the baby will be cared for literally by the woman for most of her life...

Abortion is dangerous (whether it's legal or illegal) whether it be the procedures themselves or the mental or physical affects afterwards.

If the woman decides not to give the baby up for adoption, there is pregnancy centers that are designed to help these women (at least in America). If a country doesn't have this, they should.

Taking care of a baby is also not the end of the world and can be quite joyful.

And the men? Well, they do not have to go through pregnancy, naturally. And strangely, they hardly care for their offspring's, plaster their names on it and reap the benefits.

Well I agree that men should be held accountable for their children they help to make. I wouldn't mind that being enshrined in the law.

If so let self-defense count, we could argue, that abortion might be also a form of self-defense.

Not a form of self defense. Having the baby doesn't mean demise for the women. It is questioned whether we ever need abortions since technology has advanced so far that we could just have the woman give birth early and take care of the early birthed baby for any health complicated pregnancies. The baby poses no threat so it can't be a form of self defense.

The fetus cannot be considered a parasite either sense the women and the child are from the same species.

At the end, it comes down to empathy...

OP, at the end, it comes down to the empathy, we feel for other women. I know a woman, who is not solely dependant on her husband, because she had an abortion and another woman, who was terrorized by her husband, since she had no abortion.

Maybe it is the best for the baby...

I am happy, if women can end an unwanted pregnancy... for the mentioned reasons, but also because, who wants to be unwanted by their mother? Who would be the reason of misery for the person you came from?

I´d personally rather being aborted than being unloved, abused...

There exist so many children, whose parents clearly didn´t want them. Where the birth was a mistake, who were abused, killed, tortured and had to suffer so much in life.

My father should have not become a parent, honestly.

I sorry to hear about all those experiences of those people you know and for the ones that occurred in your own. Also can take years for the affects of abortion to actually take affect, but they do come. Life can be very cruel.

Any hardship the child might have in their life does not diminish the importance of their life. I do think that everyone should work to make a better system for children who may have been unwanted by their mothers for whatever reason. We shouldn't be killing humans with unfortunate lives though.

Not really... sperm is a mindless directionless blob of cells that serves no purpose if not utilized by a woman's egg. It is the female reproductive system that does all the heavy lifting in fertilization and reproduction. The division of labor (so to speak) is not really comparable and definitely not "equal."

"Abortion is not a human right. Our rights extend until it affects the life of another. When a woman is pregnant, there is another life that is involved, the most innocent of them all. Abortion procedures are inhuman, it takes the life of the child and in brutal ways. No one should have the right to end the life of another."

But in opposing abortion, you are granting these exceptional rights to babies in gestation. Why does the baby's right to life hold precedence over the woman's right to her health? Why does the baby have the right to jeopardize the woman's health by residing in her body?

"I agree there are some religions that don't treat women fairly at all. Not all of them though. Some religion may have mistreated women, but some religion has also helped women elevate their status and gain more rights. After all women are biologically weaker than men, men could easily overpower women if they wanted to. Religion has helped this from happening through morals."

Can you name one religion that doesn't purport that women are the property of their fathers and husbands? Can you name one religion that grants women status elevated beyond any man, materially, here on earth? The net harm organized religion has caused womankind far outweighs any cutesy little privileges or titles it awards the ones who do stay in line.

"I don't see how spreading hate on the other sex helps your side one bit. Division causes nothing but more pain. Men and women are equally important and needed in daily life. They are usually the ones who do jobs none of the women like (oil riggers, firefighting, and more physical straining jobs) as well as the other half to creating life."

First of all what are you talking about "jobs none of the women like"? 😭 There are tons of women in physically demanding jobs, always have been to some extent. I personally know a number of female firefighter paramedics, and was a volunteer firefighter for a time myself. I have a cousin who was just promoted to fire chief in her district. Just because you and the company you keep don't like to get your hands dirty doesn't mean it's the case for all, or even the majority, of women.

"If you want to make change you should try getting others on your side, not hating on half of the population, it just draws people away from your cause…"

We could say the same about your movement. If you want to get people on your side, maybe you should stop diminishing the importance of bodily autonomy in half of the population. Maybe you should focus instead on the men that rape, coerce, and financially manipulate women into having sex and going through pregnancy. Targeting the root of the cause would reduce abortion and abortion related complications, psychological impact, and deaths on a far wider scale than outright banning abortion ever could.

"Not a form of self defense. Having the baby doesn't mean demise for the women. It is questioned whether we ever need abortions since technology has advanced so far that we could just have the woman give birth early and take care of the early birthed baby for any health complicated pregnancies. The baby poses no threat so it can't be a form of self defense."

That's just not true. With the advancement of medicine and medical technology, pregnancy has become a lot less risky, but it's still a massive health risk to any woman, that's assuming they do have access to reliable maternal health care. Women still die from pregnancy related complications during pregnancy and childbirth.

Someone existing within your body is a threat to your life, whether it's intended as one or not.

"Abortion is dangerous (whether it's legal or illegal) whether it be the procedures themselves or the mental or physical affects afterwards."

Both are useless without the other therefore equally important. None of the other reproductive processes start without it. 

But in opposing abortion, you are granting these exceptional rights to babies in gestation. Why does the baby's right to life hold precedence over the woman's right to her health? Why does the baby have the right to jeopardize the woman's health by residing in her body?

The woman's life is not jeopardized. It's argued that there isn't any medical reason for an abortion. There are procedures to give birth to a live child where both parties are able to survive. In most cases (90 something percent of abortions) the woman had sex knowing there was a possibility of conceiving a child. Why would killing the child for no reason help anyone? 

Can you name one religion that doesn't purport that women are the property of their fathers and husbands? Can you name one religion that grants women status elevated beyond any man, materially, here on earth? The net harm organized religion has caused womankind far outweighs any cutesy little privileges or titles it awards the ones who do stay in line. 

I can't think of any that make women higher than men (and there shouldn't be, there also shouldn't be any that say men are better than women either), but there are ones that say we are equal. Christianity has been misinterpreted many times into saying that women are the properties of men, but in reality it says (in marriage) they have equal say over the other. Also scholars have said that there is a correlation between the spread of Christianity and the better treatment of women. You think without a moral compass (religion) men would treat women like princesses or queens when physically they are much stronger than us? I think it would be an even more horrible world without religion. Also religion tells everyone to stay in line with literally everyone of them pretty much (men and women) to the higher power. 

First of all what are you talking about "jobs none of the women like"? 😭 There are tons of women in physically demanding jobs, always have been to some extent. I personally know a number of female firefighter paramedics, and was a volunteer firefighter for a time myself. I have a cousin who was just promoted to fire chief in her district. Just because you and the company you keep don't like to get your hands dirty doesn't mean it's the case for all, or even the majority, of women. 

I know that not all women are the same with what they like to do. I'm just saying in general those aren't the types of jobs women go for. If we got rid of all the men we’d have a severe deficit of people in that department. Not hating on the women who are in those departments either by the way, do what you like. 

We could say the same about your movement. If you want to get people on your side, maybe you should stop diminishing the importance of bodily autonomy in half of the population. Maybe you should focus instead on the men that rape, coerce, and financially manipulate women into having sex and going through pregnancy. Targeting the root of the cause would reduce abortion and abortion related complications, psychological impact, and deaths on a far wider scale than outright banning abortion ever could.  

Bodily autonomy that kills another person's right to live? We all have limits to our bodily autonomy with the laws. Also 1% if even of abortions are rape. Men also coerce women to abort their child because of inconvenience to themselves quite a bit too.  Pro life people are against all those things you said and murder (abortions). And how do we stop those things from happening? We have laws against rape and yet can't physically stop them from doing it. It's not possible to completely stop people from doing things, laws can only do so much (abortion in this case too, but banning it would cause less deaths). Considering the fact that about 73 million babies die a year, letting abortion continue is the wrong move. 

That's just not true. With the advancement of medicine and medical technology, pregnancy has become a lot less risky, but it's still a massive health risk to any woman, that's assuming they do have access to reliable maternal health care. Women still die from pregnancy related complications during pregnancy and childbirth. 

Women also die from abortions, performed by a medical person or not. They are dangerous either way. And with abortions there's always one person who dies. 

The pro-life movement does not just think of men as humans. We consider the fetus (little human) as a life and it is one worth protecting. Women are also considered in this equation. Despite popular belief, women do not benefit from abortion. Women's mental health are affected by killing their unborn children. Females who have had abortions are more likely to suffer from mental health issues (Medicaid study in California) and do not receive adequate care afterwards (Vincent Rue Study) and suffer deeply from their abortions. Everyone is a human in the pro-life movement. We don't hate males or females for whatever reason.

In all kindness, I do not suscribe to your belief system, therefore it is pretty irrelevant to me, if you believe this or not.

Men's half is a very important part after all we couldn't have the baby if not for their half. It takes two and both sides are equally important.

It is the women´s body who builts the baby, who has the greater costs in that process, who takes the greater risk, therefore the opinion of a man is pretty irrelevant regarding abortion.

Abortion is not a human right. Our rights extend until it affects the life of another. When a woman is pregnant, there is another life that is involved, the most innocent of them all. Abortion procedures are inhuman, it takes the life of the child and in brutal ways. No one should have the right to end the life of another.

Oh, but it should be. The right for all women to abort, if they want to or to keep it, only if they want to.

The child is a parasyte that merely lives dependant on her life and body. So it should be absolutely possible for the woman in question to end this situation, if she wishes it.

By the way, that means you are even against all abortion, where the life of the woman is at stake? Even when the child is already dead inside the poor women and it might cost her life?

You would honestly rather traumatize a woman to have "give birth" to a corpse?

And you would rather condemn a child to live in utter pain, if the defects are too gave?

That also means that are blind and deaf to the misery of the oh-so-importan-life, if the child suffers due to the circumstances it is birthed into? Sometimes it is the correct decision to abort, if you can literally cannot afford a child or if the child would face neglect or abuse. There are enough horrible parents on this earth.

You lack clear empathy for other women. You can decide for yourself to have as many children until your teeth fall out, but why would you deny another woman agency regarding her own body. Are you jealous, maybe? Nope just concerned for other women because I (and other pro lifers) are concerned for the ladies.

Ah, so you show your empathy by taking away their agency? That´s a far cry from empathy, if you ask me...

This is a gross sentiment (among other things you said) I see a lot from the other side. I don't see how spreading hate on the other sex helps your side one bit. Division causes nothing but more pain. Men and women are equally important and needed in daily life. They are usually the ones who do jobs none of the women like (oil riggers, firefighting, and more physical straining jobs) as well as the other half to creating life. If you want to make change you should try getting others on your side, not hating on half of the population, it just draws people away from your cause...Not that I want your abortion stance to draw more people. You can do whatever you want with your body. As long as you don't effect the life of another (life in the womb included) I don't care.

I honestly don´t know if I should cry or laugh about this.

I think, I prefer laughing.

I hope, you are as concerned with the misogynistic moids, who rape and dehumanize women, as with a woman like me, who just wishes to stay the fuck away from men.

I curious as to what cult you were raised in. Everyone's environment influences how they turn out later in life, in different ways for everyone. For religions people leave their religions they were raised in and others stay. It's different for everyone. Happens a lot. Around 93% of America was Christian in the 60s, not anymore (not even close). A lot of people left. Also the pro life movement is a lot more divisive then you think. There's Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, and more. Men and women are in the movement as well. I agree there are some religions that don't treat women fairly at all. Not all of them though. Some religion may have mistreated women, but some religion has also helped women elevate their status and gain more rights. After all women are biologically weaker than men, men could easily overpower women if they wanted to. Religion has helped this from happening through morals.

I am not American and I hardly share sensitive information like this. According to my religion teacher in middle school, the belief I had was classsified as a cult. And I went to a catholic school...I got additional religious education by the church, we went to and by my father. As a child I was scared of god, greatly...All the sins I committed by being basically alive.

Show me a religion who does treat women well? Their common ground seems to be that they all oppress women, only the degree differs greatly.

I think I have an interesting book for you:

The better half - On the genetic superiority of women

by Sharon Moalem

And religion has been used for thousands of years to justify oppression and evil deeds...in the name of god. Murder seems to be absolutely

Also the pro life movement is a lot more divisive then you think. There's Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, and more. Men and women are in the movement as well.

Spectacular, so many fractions that have something against women having agency and a choice in that matter. I am sorry, but this is disheartening for me.

Abortion is dangerous (whether it's legal or illegal) whether it be the procedures themselves or the mental or physical affects afterwards.

Self-inflicted abortion or by an untrained person is absolutely dangerous, by a trained person and legally, not more dangerous than other medical operations. The sooner the better even.

Some woman go to great length to get rid of the child. Allowing it makes the process safer...Often the woman has to wait too long to abort.

If the woman decides not to give the baby up for adoption, there is pregnancy centers that are designed to help these women (at least in America). If a country doesn't have this, they should.

She still has to go through an unwanted pregnancy that changes her body. Some women just don´t want to go through it.

And the child suffers due to the process. An adopted child often has issues with feelings of abandonment. It is not as clean and easy, as you make it sound.

Taking care of a baby is also not the end of the world and can be quite joyful.

Who are you, that you can decide for every woman?

Some women aren´t born to be mothers and I absolutely wish for them to stay childless, if they want to.

Additionally there are enough already abused and neglected children on this world.

Not a form of self defense. Having the baby doesn't mean demise for the women. It is questioned whether we ever need abortions since technology has advanced so far that we could just have the woman give birth early and take care of the early birthed baby for any health complicated pregnancies. The baby poses no threat so it can't be a form of self defense.

Again, you cannot say this, without actually knowing the situation of the individual woman. In some cases, it is very well an absolute catastrophe.

The fetus cannot be considered a parasite either sense the women and the child are from the same species.

It very well is, if you like it or not. The child does not give the mother anything useful during pregnancy, but takes from her body important resources.

There is a reason, why pregnancy is not possible, if the women is too thin and lacks nutrients.

I sorry to hear about all those experiences of those people you know and for the ones that occurred in your own. Also can take years for the affects of abortion to actually take affect, but they do come. Life can be very cruel. Any hardship the child might have in their life does not diminish the importance of their life. I do think that everyone should work to make a better system for children who may have been unwanted by their mothers for whatever reason. We shouldn't be killing humans with unfortunate lives though. I do wish you would value yourself more. You're more important than you give yourself credit for. It's just sad.

Thank you, that is nice of you, nevertheless.

A woman having or not having an abortion results both times in some kind of negative feelings.

I´d rather wish only for women, who like to be mothers, to become a parent.

The problem with your stance...it takes agency away from the individual woman due to your own flawed belief system. Just that you understand me right: My own belief system is also flawed, because it is subjective. My moral compass are not rules forced upon others.

However I´d rather not play god, but let the people in question have a choice.

This seems to be a better approach than forcing people, that more often than not leads to tragedy.

You cannot change the fact, that the mothers didn´t want the child...you cannot brainwash people to that degree. The child still knows and still suffers. Even within the most stable families.

We all wish to know, where we come from. Preventing this, takes even agency away from the child.

I know this and I don't subscribe to yours either. Was just explaining my side. 

It is the women's body who builds the baby, who has the greater costs in that process, who takes the greater risk, therefore the opinion of a man is pretty irrelevant regarding abortion.

It's the man's child as well, he should have some say in it. Losing a child is an unimaginable pain. There are ways to help a woman through pregnancies. There's risk with everything.

By the way, that means you are even against all abortion, where the life of the woman is at stake? Even when the child is already dead inside the poor woman and it might cost her life? 

I said this later on but there is not any medical necessary abortion. There's ways to make sure both parties live. Also there's abortion methods where they inject the would-be mother and it kills their child and they do eventually give birth to a dead baby. 

And  you would rather condemn a child to live in utter pain, if the defects are too gave? 

What defects? What kind of defects make someone unworthy of living? 

I hope, you are as concerned with the misogynistic moids, who rape and dehumanize women, as with a woman like me, who just wishes to stay the fuck away from men. 

Oh I am. I personally think they should castrate the men who rape (death is too nice). Let them lose their manhood that they already gave up when they decided it was a good idea to use it for ungentlemanly like behavior.

I am not American and I hardly share sensitive information like this. According to my religion teacher in middle school, the belief I had was classified as a cult. And I went to a catholic school...I got additional religious education by the church, we went to and by my father. As a child I was scared of god, greatly...All the sins I committed by being basically alive.

Show me a religion who does treat women well? Their common ground seems to be that they all oppress women, only the degree differs greatly.

Catholicism is not a cult. It's not accepted as a cult by many scholars and such. The only people I've heard call it a cult are those who hate it. Fear of God is not supposed to necessarily mean being terrified of God. I think it just means respect and knowing that God is powerful. But who knows? 

Believe it or not Christianity helped women a lot. Turns out the belief that “all humans are created in the image of God” makes people respect women a whole lot more. Scholars have pointed to a correlation of the spread Christianity and the better treatment of women. That's not to say that there haven't been “Christian” attacks on women. It's a large religion and it's been around for a long time, there's gonna be hiccups here and there. It's because humans naturally just suck. Human instincts aren't always good. 

Self-inflicted abortion or by an untrained person is absolutely dangerous, by a trained person and legally, not more dangerous than other medical operations. The sooner the better even. 

The risks of abortions are underreported. The complications are not seen as necessary to report for some reason. Also with the abortion pill, those untrained people taking it into their own hands will rise. Abortion ends with a death no matter what. 

I think I have an interesting book for you: 

Also if you suggest a book for me to read I'll suggest some videos for you. Live Action has a lot of videos about it. There is one of the people I look at. They go into detail about the procedures, the effects, and real life experiences of people who have had abortions, ex-abortionists, abortion survivors, etc …etc. It's interesting and heartbreaking. You can do what you want though. 

I don't think one sex is better than the other. We have different characteristics. We’re all different and that's fine. 

It very well is, if you like it or not. The child does not give the mother anything useful during pregnancy, but takes from her body important resources. 

Actually the fetus gives fetal cells which helps the mothers immune system and overall health. These can potentially even help long term as well. So the little one does give back. It's give and take both ways. Even aborted babies help their mother. 

However I´d rather not play god, but let the people in question have a choice. 

By letting others play God and decide who is worthy of living and who isn't? 

You cannot change the fact that the mothers didn't want the child...you cannot brainwash people to that degree. The child still knows and still suffers. Even within the most stable families. 

Everyone suffers (whether they are “wanted” or not), doesn't give anyone the right to murder for that reason. People can overcome their suffering though, it's possible. Can be hard, but it's possible.  

So there is one part of humanity, who created every human being that ever was. And those people are women, and not men.

But according to the extras: Even a basically (brain) dead person should have more freedom, than a woman?

It is her body that builds every little cell...Men give nothing more than less than half of the plan. Only her body creates the human being. Without the woman, there is no new human being. Her body suffers

If a living, breathing human is going to die, when nearly a corpse had not consented to give the needed organ...than the next to nothing without the woman, should have have more rights, than the woman, who is also a human being...? Does not sound logical to me.

I mean, I could get behind the reasoning if you argued abortion should be a human right.

Law, ethics, morality...have been changing since the beginning of time. So why not add abortion as a human right?

You lack clear empathy for other women. You can decide for yourself to have as many children until your teeth fall out, but why would you deny another woman agency regarding her own body. Are you jealous, mabybe?

I hope not due to a religion a petty man created to enslave women? I know the choice is wide regarding this topic. There are so many religions that fit the description.

Asking this as one of these women, "who keep their legs closed", because she has not even an ounce of attraction to these "walking abortions".

And know what? A woman could have as many abortions as she likes, even though I - very likely- will never need one.

I would be pro-life if I was an atheist. Killing babies is wrong, you don’t have to be religious to understand this.

OP, this is a fairy tale. It won´t happen. Women and men will have sex without thinking about babys.

Sex drive is a natural consequence of our species of being alive, if you are an animal with a female and male in it. It is a natural law.

I am an outlier...I do not consider men attractive, I have a clear negative reaction even thinking about having sex with men.

I repeat again: I hate men, I am disgusted by them.

It is literally easy for me, but not for so many other women.

Honestly, I do wish that women would not sleep with men in masses, but I know and I am nearly sure, you are also aware: That won´t happen.

My natural state of being is not being with a man, not being in close contact with a man and definitely and 100 % not sleeping with a man.

I hate man, but I do have empathy for other women, who desire men. I wish them well, with all of my being. Even if they live a life, I cannot understand.

I would be pro-life if I was an atheist. Killing babies is wrong, you don’t have to be religious to understand this.

Bingo. So you are religious.

OP, I was raised in a cult. I know, how much it can influence your point of view. And it is very difficult to completely free yourself from it.

Religion was used so often to enslave us woman and in your words, by chance, you happen to agree with the religion you were raised in?

Does not sound very convincing to me.

Again, it’s undeniable that a fetus is human. I say this automatically makes them a person, but clearly you think there’s some other qualifying factor that makes a human deserving of rights.

A baby is an already born human being, that what you refer is either a clump of cells or a fetus. (Most abortion happen, when the clump of cells is pretty unfeeling). A parasytic organism, that would not exist or even continue to exist without the woman, the already living person, whose agency you desire to take. Your body tries to literally protect you, by flushing out or aborting so many defective clumps of cells.

Menstruation is stopped, if your survival is at stake by being too thin.

Pregnancy is dangerous

And pregnancy is dangerous, does change your body forever and can literally kill you. And the baby will be cared for literally by the woman for most of her life...

And mothers are less likely to be hired as single women. Earn less throughout their lives, as they are the one in charge of caring for the child, work more as their husbands and have to face more often poverty, if they divorce the moid. Single women with children are among the poorest in my country.

I absolutely understand, why some women do not consent to this.

And the men? Well, they do not have to go through pregnancy, naturally. And strangely, they hardly care for their offsprings, plaster their names on it and reap the benefits. In fact, I have heard a male employer say, that he did not fire an underperforming male, because he had a family. They get more frequently raises, when they have a family. And they have an unpaid servant for life, who raises their offsprings, makes all the dirty work in the household and is available for sex.

Dream life...literally...Personally, I do not understand, why a woman would want to fuck with a guy ever. But hey, that is just me.

Even if that clump was a person...

I mean, we could actually even go deeper, that a person is a little more, than a cluster of differentiated cells that solely is dependant on another person.

Because even if we call this thing a person, there are clear cases, where a person kills another person, that are acknowledged and consented by human beings.

How can it be, that a living person can die, if a near corpse can decide to not give him his organs?

How can it be, that soldiers are not punished for literally killing people and (sometimes raping women?) And no, they are not only sent in order to protect themselves or their family. So it is not always self-defense

If so let self-defense count, we could argue, that abortion might be also a form of self-defense.

At the end, it comes down to empathy...

OP, at the end, it comes down to the empathy, we feel for other women. I know a woman, who is not solely dependant on her husband, because she had an abortion and another woman, who was terrorized by her husband, since she had no abortion.

Maybe it is the best for the baby...

I am happy, if women can end an unwanted pregnancy... for the mentioned reasons, but also because, who wants to be unwanted by their mother? Who would be the reason of misery for the person you came from?

I´d personally rather being aborted than being unloved, abused...

There exist so many children, whose parents clearly didn´t want them. Where the birth was a mistake, who were abused, killed, tortured and had to suffer so much in life.

I think OP makes the mistake, that he thinks only men are humans

The pro-life movement does not just think of men as humans. We consider the fetus (little human) as a life and it is one worth protecting. Women are also considered in this equation. Despite popular belief, women do not benefit from abortion. Women's mental health are affected by killing their unborn children. Females who have had abortions are more likely to suffer from mental health issues (Medicaid study in California) and do not receive adequate care afterwards (Vincent Rue Study) and suffer deeply from their abortions.

Everyone is a human in the pro-life movement. We don't hate males or females for whatever reason.

It is her body that builds every little cell...Men give nothing more than less than half of the plan. Only her body creates the human being. Without the woman, there is no new human being. Her body suffers

It is true women have the superpower to create human beings and we should be proud of that fact. I'm certainly not ashamed to be apart of the sex that can carry children.

Men's half is a very important part after all we couldn't have the baby if not for their half. It takes two and both sides are equally important.

Law, ethics, morality...have been changing since the beginning of time. So why not add abortion as a human right?

Abortion is not a human right. Our rights extend until it affects the life of another. When a woman is pregnant, there is another life that is involved, the most innocent of them all. Abortion procedures are inhuman, it takes the life of the child and in brutal ways. No one should have the right to end the life of another.

You lack clear empathy for other women. You can decide for yourself to have as many children until your teeth fall out, but why would you deny another woman agency regarding her own body. Are you jealous, maybe?

Nope just concerned for other women because I (and other pro lifers) are concerned for the ladies.

I repeat again: I hate men, I am disgusted by them.

This is a gross sentiment (among other things you said) I see a lot from the other side. I don't see how spreading hate on the other sex helps your side one bit. Division causes nothing but more pain. Men and women are equally important and needed in daily life. They are usually the ones who do jobs none of the women like (oil riggers, firefighting, and more physical straining jobs) as well as the other half to creating life. If you want to make change you should try getting others on your side, not hating on half of the population, it just draws people away from your cause...Not that I want your abortion stance to draw more people.

You can do whatever you want with your body. As long as you don't effect the life of another (life in the womb included) I don't care.

OP, I was raised in a cult. I know, how much it can influence your point of view. And it is very difficult to completely free yourself from it.

Religion was used so often to enslave us woman and in your words, by chance, you happen to agree with the religion you were raised in?

I curious as to what cult you were raised in. Everyone's environment influences how they turn out later in life, in different ways for everyone. For religions people leave their religions they were raised in and others stay. It's different for everyone. Happens a lot. Around 93% of America was Christian in the 60s, not anymore (not even close). A lot of people left.

Also the pro life movement is a lot more divisive then you think. There's Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, and more. Men and women are in the movement as well.

I agree there are some religions that don't treat women fairly at all. Not all of them though. Some religion may have mistreated women, but some religion has also helped women elevate their status and gain more rights. After all women are biologically weaker than men, men could easily overpower women if they wanted to. Religion has helped this from happening through morals.

And pregnancy is dangerous, does change your body forever and can literally kill you. And the baby will be cared for literally by the woman for most of her life...

Abortion is dangerous (whether it's legal or illegal) whether it be the procedures themselves or the mental or physical affects afterwards.

If the woman decides not to give the baby up for adoption, there is pregnancy centers that are designed to help these women (at least in America). If a country doesn't have this, they should.

Taking care of a baby is also not the end of the world and can be quite joyful.

And the men? Well, they do not have to go through pregnancy, naturally. And strangely, they hardly care for their offspring's, plaster their names on it and reap the benefits.

Well I agree that men should be held accountable for their children they help to make. I wouldn't mind that being enshrined in the law.

If so let self-defense count, we could argue, that abortion might be also a form of self-defense.

Not a form of self defense. Having the baby doesn't mean demise for the women. It is questioned whether we ever need abortions since technology has advanced so far that we could just have the woman give birth early and take care of the early birthed baby for any health complicated pregnancies. The baby poses no threat so it can't be a form of self defense.

The fetus cannot be considered a parasite either sense the women and the child are from the same species.

At the end, it comes down to empathy...

OP, at the end, it comes down to the empathy, we feel for other women. I know a woman, who is not solely dependant on her husband, because she had an abortion and another woman, who was terrorized by her husband, since she had no abortion.

Maybe it is the best for the baby...

I am happy, if women can end an unwanted pregnancy... for the mentioned reasons, but also because, who wants to be unwanted by their mother? Who would be the reason of misery for the person you came from?

I´d personally rather being aborted than being unloved, abused...

There exist so many children, whose parents clearly didn´t want them. Where the birth was a mistake, who were abused, killed, tortured and had to suffer so much in life.

My father should have not become a parent, honestly.

I sorry to hear about all those experiences of those people you know and for the ones that occurred in your own. Also can take years for the affects of abortion to actually take affect, but they do come. Life can be very cruel.

Any hardship the child might have in their life does not diminish the importance of their life. I do think that everyone should work to make a better system for children who may have been unwanted by their mothers for whatever reason. We shouldn't be killing humans with unfortunate lives though.