Hello!

Lili literally saw what state Soo-won was in when she ignored him bleeding out on the floor in Yona’s favor, he was literally two steps away. Unless she’s secretly blind like her father I don’t think she missed that.

So you’re telling me after seeing him like that she didn’t worry, didn’t stay to check on him or anything and just left home, and then when Joon-gi tells her he gave up the throne she’s suddenly all worried and legit asking “is he in bad health?”. I’m sorry what?

In this case really in the literal sense. Lily, like everybody else, thinks Soo Won can take it. Whatever it is. Hak thought that Soo Won can win against the gods. Mei Nyan also thinks, that he somehow manages.

Zeno looked like a mess, too.

Yeah but Yona Lili noticed instantly and ran to her specifically, ignoring Soo-won covered in blood completely? Idk really…so bad. The plot holes are pulling on my nerves.

Additionally, Lily and Soo Won do not have such a bond like Yona and Lily. Not yet. And Soo Won did not make it easier for her either. When she showed him any concern, he basically treated her pretty coldly. Most likely she thought she was dumb for even caring in the first place. She cannot mind-read. And the mixed signals do not help.

When she showed him any concern, he basically treated her pretty coldly.

I get that. She ignored him while he was covered in blood and clearly went through hell, and just went home. No wonder he was surprised they’re friends and was suspicious of her intentions.

Both told each other, again and again, that they do not care for each other. Lily is basically a girl´s girl

That much is true, yes. They do have a less warm relationship than her with Yona (which is built on emotional connection first and foremost), while with him it was more neutral and distanced. And they kept insisting they’re not close. But since she apparently does care and worry for him I don’t get why was her reaction even “delayed” then. Thats why I suspect it’s a “mistake” or lack of space on pages, whatever cause it doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Maybe they aren´t plot holes...

I get that. She ignored him while he was covered in blood and clearly went through hell, and just went home. No wonder he was surprised they’re friends and was suspicious of her intentions.

After having thought about it, I do think, the scene is consistent.

If your observation doesn´t fit the category you wished to put the character in, than the situation is more nuanced. The category does not 100 % fit you put the character in.

Previously I claimed Lily was rational? Right? I was partly wrong. She does have - consistent -irregularities in some fields. Lily is really Soo Won´s equal. Even in being a coward in romantic situations.

1. It was not a plot hole, that Lily did not run to Soo Won then.

2. Because she correctly wondered, if he was in bad health. How? If she had not seen him covered in blood, she would not know, that he had been hurt?!! (This was something we should have noticed! You did!)

3. Jon Gi did not tell her any reason, because he did - frankly - not care.

4. That is the reason Lily is so agitated. Because she had pretended not to see the last time. That is why she is in a daze. She realized that she has made a horrible mistake.

(You are right. You are so right. Do you have a good intuition? May I ask? Do you see visions, too? Not in the way, that you see angels...but do you "know" things without really being able to explain it? This is for me so...I "see" some things, I come to conclusions because I can already see nearly the whole picture, but I struggle with taking the single steps. That is why I cannot really explain, what I mean.)

5. Lily felt guilty, when she came to him. She felt guilty, because she had ignored it before. So she showed him this time that she cared. (Lily acted a little strange in front of him. A lot more timid than she is - usually.) Lily has to become loud again!

6. Soo Won does - for the first time show that he is hurt. Badly hurt by her behaviour. He does not want to see her.

Soo Won frankly feels like crap, very weak and Lily is the last person he wants to see. I think it must be also shameful for him, that people see him like this. Now he does not want any kind of sympathy.

7. He questions her, if they are really friends. And why she would worry for him. (I think, he is more cranky about Xing, than her not running to him. As I am not even sure, if he saw, that she was there in the first place. He was still in a daze, after all.

Soo Won had been hurt since the Xing Arc. He hasn´t treated her like his friend since then.

8. He does rebuff her and Lily appears to be slighly taken aback. (It is from Shin ha, not me. Absolutely not from her.) The snail is back in her house.

9. Lily does not appear to visit him ever, but completely pushes herself onto Yona. Questioning about "HER LOVE LIFE". She needs to badly to know it, that she basically invites herself into Yona´s room.

The way it is framed it appears that Lily is trying to "sleep" with Yona. So there is some romantic allusion. Keishuk cannot hinder Lily anymore.

10. Lily is really not alright. She has lost General Geuntae and her significant other does not appear to like her at all. He hardly wants to be her friend.

Have mercy! Lily has lost her father!

11. Trauma

Once upon a time there was Nene, who became strong after her husband has betrayed her. She did it for her daughter. The daughter she loved so much and Lily knew, how much her mother loved her.

It is not unlikely, when her husband has betrayed her, that she wished to kill herself. But she didn´t do it. She loved Lily too much. So she became strong for Lily´s sake and Lily, too, wished to be strong for her mother. So she went out to learn her father´s occupation. In order to become her mother´s strength...

She wouldn´t forgive her father. Even after her mother would have died. She vowed.

But Lily had seen it, that her mother was at her end. Nearly she would have lost her mother.

She will become her mother´s sword, her protector.

Lily has to rescue her naive mother, who was badly hurt by a man again.

"Do not marry a man who is like your father," her mother adviced her daughter.

"Marry somebody, who loves his wife and is a trusthworthy man."

Who could be more ideal, than General Geuntae?

His wife Yun ho, Lily liked, too.

Lily would have married Yun ho, if she was a man.

Yun ho was just so dear to General Geuntae...

(Certainly not the guy, whom even grown-up men considered cute.)

Incredible kind and cute...Who could possibly resemble Yun ho? Dunno?

A guy who is very cute and kind...Hmmm

And then she met Soo Won - a delicate man with long hair. They both clicked instantly.

She had not to pretend to be any different in front of him.

Everytime he threw her off...

Actually...it was too late anyway...

"Though it was pretty clear, that he was not exactly into her,"Lily thought.

Since there was "no way!"...

Until the story ends I guess it would be more correct to call them “loose ends”. But they’re sooo not getting tied up in one chap anyway.

Because she correctly wondered, if he was in bad health. How? If she had not seen him covered in blood, she would not know, that he had been hurt?!! (This was something we should have noticed! You did!)

The plot hole is not her wondering about his health (but actually after seeing him hurt, covered in blood, how is bad health even a question, of course he is). The plot hole is her paying him zero attention when she seemed worried for him before he went in the mausoleum and days after. But not in the moment. Feelings aside, even on a human level anyone would be concerned. Even the dragons were more concerned about Soo-won than Lili was there🤷‍♀️. And she just went home.

How a person she claims to care about looking like that did not concern her and what on earth made her think he’s fine?

Questioning about "HER LOVE LIFE". She needs to badly to know it, that she basically invites herself into Yona´s room.

Yes maybe it is so. Lili too has “relationship problems”, I think she maybe wanted to discuss something of her own with Yona, not just listen to Yona’s problems. With Geun-tae Lili seems to be done after all, and as she doesn’t want to visit Soo-won, maybe rant about him being mean to her or smth. While Yona now knows Soo-won very much wanted to see her in fact.

Do not marry a man who is like your father," her mother adviced her daughter.

Yep, that’s what I speculate too. Lili’s mother must have been so hurt by what Joon-gi did that she told Lili to not marry a “youngster” (as Joon-gi was most likely young when they married, he looks not much older than Geun-tae now), and as Lili herself was hurt by what her father did, she instinctively went for a type completely opposite to her father - Geun-tae (wild, loud, older men).

Incredible kind and cute...Who could possibly resemble Yun ho? Dunno?

I actually meant it that way. We do not know, what she thought back then. But she knew that he was hurt, but had for a reason not reacted.

She obviously appeared shocked... Lily must therefore perceive him as so strong, unfortunately. I actually think, she did not even know, that she cared for him outside of him being a good king. I mean this with being delusional.

In chapter 181 it appeared as if she was already jealous, that Soo Won could maybe marry Yona. She, however, justified it in front of herself as if she was merely concerned for Yona´s sake.

I think her mother would most likely flip out, if her daughter fell in love with a guy, who looks basically like a younger version of her father. (We just have to think, what she made with Jae ha when this guy complimented her.)

Lily thought - that is her perception flaw - she merely cared for him as king. Soo Won was somebody that strong in her eyes.

In a way it demonstrates that Lily is a lil bit delusional regarding this part. Most likely due to her parents.

How a person she claims to care about looking like that did not concern her and what on earth made her think he’s fine?

I think, our perception flaw is that we do think, she knows, that she cares.

I make the claim, that until this moment she tried to persuade herself, that she did not care for him outside of being a king.

Lily didn´t know.

I remembered how easily both Hak and Yona both tend to fall for the same illusions. I wondered, if the same can be applied to their equivalents - Soo Won and Lily.

Soo Won, too, tried to persuade himself that he did not care likely. And now he is heartbroken, because of it. Idiot.

Yes maybe it is so. Lili too has “relationship problems”, I think she maybe wanted to discuss something of her own with Yona, not just listen to Yona’s problems. With Geun-tae Lili seems to be done after all, and as she doesn’t want to visit Soo-won, maybe rant about him being mean to her or smth. While Yona now knows Soo-won very much wanted to see her in fact.

Idk really what was going on in her head. I think as she instinctively already liked him as a person, worry should have been instinctive too as he appeared in a critical condition so idk what glitched in her, a few days later she directly told him she worried so I’m not quite sure what stopped her before. She yelled for him when he ran into the crumbling mausoleum but him half-dead was not concerning? Imo the most normal human reaction upon seeing him like that should’ve been “holy shit, he looks like he went through hell and back”, not “oh, he must be ok, I’ll go home”😅

I’m happy she reconsidered when she learned he’s actually not ok but yeah I’m confuzzled.

In chapter 181 it appeared as if she was already jealous, that Soo Won could maybe marry Yona. She, however, justified it in front of herself as if she was merely concerned for Yona´s sake.

Can’t say for sure but I don’t think she was jealous as at that time Lili was still into Geun-tae (for the last time), so I think it was concern for Yona there. But can’t deny that if she started feeling stuff for Soo-won, it was subconscious, so who knows.

I make the claim, that until this moment she tried to persuade herself, that she did not care for him outside of being a king.

Could be, can’t deny. She saw him as the perfect king, an interesting tofu-face (lol) guy, and had mixed feelings about what he did to Yona and Hak. Anything else could have been developing unbeknownst to her, subconsciously.

That would be like the "girl´s chapter", right?

Instinctivley`? I believe in regard to relationships, Lily might be as delusional as Hak. I mean, she justified it with being worried for Yona in her thoughts. There was nobody criticizing her for liking Soo Won in chapter 181. But her. But she still forbid it herself so heavily. Just like Soo Won, who is so blind, that he did not even understand, that he felt like dying.

It truly appears to be such a no-go. And since Lily has somehow a deep fear to lose Yona...and yes, I do think, that sweet and kind Yona is a replacement for her mother.

How often do you think, did Lily see her mother, when she often travels from town to town? Most likely Nene doesn´t bring her daughter often along. We saw burglars are a thing.

Maybe Lily is more similar to Soo Won as we believe. I understand her, as I had a very dominant mother myself, who persuaded me I was heterosexual my whole life. I´ve been there being delusional about myself. Especially if you are really tight with your mother. Like it was in my case. My father was such a disappointment for my mother.

Can’t say for sure but I don’t think she was jealous as at that time Lili was still into Geun-tae (for the last time), so I think it was concern for Yona there. But can’t deny that if she started feeling stuff for Soo-won, it was subconscious, so who knows.

The thing with this manga, Kusanagi merely hints at so much important developments. We don´t know...Right? We are not sure. Not at all. We are all unsure, when something happened or in this case even "if" it even happened. Because outside of "Yona" so much lands under the table.

So you sit on your stool and wait until the last chapter drops....Quite exciting...but well, that is the way she seems to tell her story.

Could be, can’t deny. She saw him as the perfect king, an interesting tofu-face (lol) guy, and had mixed feelings about what he did to Yona and Hak. Anything else could have been developing unbeknownst to her, subconsciously.

I think, it could even be that the bishies were her real home turf. After all, I laugh myself silly, that Yun ho basically is a "female Soo Won".

(Most likely I see myself to much in Lily, too. I know, how it is, when you are attracted to somebody, but you just cannot admit it. You make the most silly excuses to yourself. But deep down you know, that this is all wrong. Just that your whole world completely collapses, when you admit it. It is like already been there. I was a grown-up, when I finally realized, that the guy who had shamed me in school had been right. Others tend to see it far sooner. I laughed myself silly, when more and more people realized that Soo Won and Lily were in love. With the exception of those two, of course.)

And Lily likes Yun ho, too. (Kind and cute...Soo Won was like this, when he made the greatest impression on her. He understood her perspective. Soo Won tried to mend her relationship with her father. Telling her, that he understood her father. But he also understood her. Soo Won was so awfully sweet in that moment.)

Lily and Soo Won had the same stand-in as a guy. The one thought of Geuntae as his father, the other as her lover.

Lili literally saw what state Soo-won was in when she ignored him bleeding out on the floor in Yona’s favor, he was literally two steps away. Unless she’s secretly blind like her father I don’t think she missed that.

So you’re telling me after seeing him like that she didn’t worry, didn’t stay to check on him or anything and just left home, and then when Joon-gi tells her he gave up the throne she’s suddenly all worried and legit asking “is he in bad health?”. I’m sorry what?

In this case really in the literal sense. Lily, like everybody else, thinks Soo Won can take it. Whatever it is. Hak thought that Soo Won can win against the gods. Mei Nyan also thinks, that he somehow manages.

Zeno looked like a mess, too.

Yeah but Yona Lili noticed instantly and ran to her specifically, ignoring Soo-won covered in blood completely? Idk really…so bad. The plot holes are pulling on my nerves.

Additionally, Lily and Soo Won do not have such a bond like Yona and Lily. Not yet. And Soo Won did not make it easier for her either. When she showed him any concern, he basically treated her pretty coldly. Most likely she thought she was dumb for even caring in the first place. She cannot mind-read. And the mixed signals do not help.

When she showed him any concern, he basically treated her pretty coldly.

I get that. She ignored him while he was covered in blood and clearly went through hell, and just went home. No wonder he was surprised they’re friends and was suspicious of her intentions.

Both told each other, again and again, that they do not care for each other. Lily is basically a girl´s girl

That much is true, yes. They do have a less warm relationship than her with Yona (which is built on emotional connection first and foremost), while with him it was more neutral and distanced. And they kept insisting they’re not close. But since she apparently does care and worry for him I don’t get why was her reaction even “delayed” then. Thats why I suspect it’s a “mistake” or lack of space on pages, whatever cause it doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Maybe they aren´t plot holes...

I get that. She ignored him while he was covered in blood and clearly went through hell, and just went home. No wonder he was surprised they’re friends and was suspicious of her intentions.

After having thought about it, I do think, the scene is consistent.

If your observation doesn´t fit the category you wished to put the character in, than the situation is more nuanced. The category does not 100 % fit you put the character in.

Previously I claimed Lily was rational? Right? I was partly wrong. She does have - consistent -irregularities in some fields. Lily is really Soo Won´s equal. Even in being a coward in romantic situations.

1. It was not a plot hole, that Lily did not run to Soo Won then.

2. Because she correctly wondered, if he was in bad health. How? If she had not seen him covered in blood, she would not know, that he had been hurt?!! (This was something we should have noticed! You did!)

3. Jon Gi did not tell her any reason, because he did - frankly - not care.

4. That is the reason Lily is so agitated. Because she had pretended not to see the last time. That is why she is in a daze. She realized that she has made a horrible mistake.

(You are right. You are so right. Do you have a good intuition? May I ask? Do you see visions, too? Not in the way, that you see angels...but do you "know" things without really being able to explain it? This is for me so...I "see" some things, I come to conclusions because I can already see nearly the whole picture, but I struggle with taking the single steps. That is why I cannot really explain, what I mean.)

5. Lily felt guilty, when she came to him. She felt guilty, because she had ignored it before. So she showed him this time that she cared. (Lily acted a little strange in front of him. A lot more timid than she is - usually.) Lily has to become loud again!

6. Soo Won does - for the first time show that he is hurt. Badly hurt by her behaviour. He does not want to see her.

Soo Won frankly feels like crap, very weak and Lily is the last person he wants to see. I think it must be also shameful for him, that people see him like this. Now he does not want any kind of sympathy.

7. He questions her, if they are really friends. And why she would worry for him. (I think, he is more cranky about Xing, than her not running to him. As I am not even sure, if he saw, that she was there in the first place. He was still in a daze, after all.

Soo Won had been hurt since the Xing Arc. He hasn´t treated her like his friend since then.

8. He does rebuff her and Lily appears to be slighly taken aback. (It is from Shin ha, not me. Absolutely not from her.) The snail is back in her house.

9. Lily does not appear to visit him ever, but completely pushes herself onto Yona. Questioning about "HER LOVE LIFE". She needs to badly to know it, that she basically invites herself into Yona´s room.

The way it is framed it appears that Lily is trying to "sleep" with Yona. So there is some romantic allusion. Keishuk cannot hinder Lily anymore.

10. Lily is really not alright. She has lost General Geuntae and her significant other does not appear to like her at all. He hardly wants to be her friend.

Have mercy! Lily has lost her father!

11. Trauma

Once upon a time there was Nene, who became strong after her husband has betrayed her. She did it for her daughter. The daughter she loved so much and Lily knew, how much her mother loved her.

It is not unlikely, when her husband has betrayed her, that she wished to kill herself. But she didn´t do it. She loved Lily too much. So she became strong for Lily´s sake and Lily, too, wished to be strong for her mother. So she went out to learn her father´s occupation. In order to become her mother´s strength...

She wouldn´t forgive her father. Even after her mother would have died. She vowed.

But Lily had seen it, that her mother was at her end. Nearly she would have lost her mother.

She will become her mother´s sword, her protector.

Lily has to rescue her naive mother, who was badly hurt by a man again.

"Do not marry a man who is like your father," her mother adviced her daughter.

"Marry somebody, who loves his wife and is a trusthworthy man."

Who could be more ideal, than General Geuntae?

His wife Yun ho, Lily liked, too.

Lily would have married Yun ho, if she was a man.

Yun ho was just so dear to General Geuntae...

(Certainly not the guy, whom even grown-up men considered cute.)

Incredible kind and cute...Who could possibly resemble Yun ho? Dunno?

A guy who is very cute and kind...Hmmm

And then she met Soo Won - a delicate man with long hair. They both clicked instantly.

She had not to pretend to be any different in front of him.

Everytime he threw her off...

Actually...it was too late anyway...

"Though it was pretty clear, that he was not exactly into her,"Lily thought.

Since there was "no way!"...

Until the story ends I guess it would be more correct to call them “loose ends”. But they’re sooo not getting tied up in one chap anyway.

Because she correctly wondered, if he was in bad health. How? If she had not seen him covered in blood, she would not know, that he had been hurt?!! (This was something we should have noticed! You did!)

The plot hole is not her wondering about his health (but actually after seeing him hurt, covered in blood, how is bad health even a question, of course he is). The plot hole is her paying him zero attention when she seemed worried for him before he went in the mausoleum and days after. But not in the moment. Feelings aside, even on a human level anyone would be concerned. Even the dragons were more concerned about Soo-won than Lili was there🤷‍♀️. And she just went home.

How a person she claims to care about looking like that did not concern her and what on earth made her think he’s fine?

Questioning about "HER LOVE LIFE". She needs to badly to know it, that she basically invites herself into Yona´s room.

Yes maybe it is so. Lili too has “relationship problems”, I think she maybe wanted to discuss something of her own with Yona, not just listen to Yona’s problems. With Geun-tae Lili seems to be done after all, and as she doesn’t want to visit Soo-won, maybe rant about him being mean to her or smth. While Yona now knows Soo-won very much wanted to see her in fact.

Do not marry a man who is like your father," her mother adviced her daughter.

Yep, that’s what I speculate too. Lili’s mother must have been so hurt by what Joon-gi did that she told Lili to not marry a “youngster” (as Joon-gi was most likely young when they married, he looks not much older than Geun-tae now), and as Lili herself was hurt by what her father did, she instinctively went for a type completely opposite to her father - Geun-tae (wild, loud, older men).

Incredible kind and cute...Who could possibly resemble Yun ho? Dunno?

I actually meant it that way. We do not know, what she thought back then. But she knew that he was hurt, but had for a reason not reacted.

She obviously appeared shocked... Lily must therefore perceive him as so strong, unfortunately. I actually think, she did not even know, that she cared for him outside of him being a good king. I mean this with being delusional.

In chapter 181 it appeared as if she was already jealous, that Soo Won could maybe marry Yona. She, however, justified it in front of herself as if she was merely concerned for Yona´s sake.

I think her mother would most likely flip out, if her daughter fell in love with a guy, who looks basically like a younger version of her father. (We just have to think, what she made with Jae ha when this guy complimented her.)

Lily thought - that is her perception flaw - she merely cared for him as king. Soo Won was somebody that strong in her eyes.

In a way it demonstrates that Lily is a lil bit delusional regarding this part. Most likely due to her parents.

How a person she claims to care about looking like that did not concern her and what on earth made her think he’s fine?

I think, our perception flaw is that we do think, she knows, that she cares.

I make the claim, that until this moment she tried to persuade herself, that she did not care for him outside of being a king.

Lily didn´t know.

I remembered how easily both Hak and Yona both tend to fall for the same illusions. I wondered, if the same can be applied to their equivalents - Soo Won and Lily.

Soo Won, too, tried to persuade himself that he did not care likely. And now he is heartbroken, because of it. Idiot.

Yes maybe it is so. Lili too has “relationship problems”, I think she maybe wanted to discuss something of her own with Yona, not just listen to Yona’s problems. With Geun-tae Lili seems to be done after all, and as she doesn’t want to visit Soo-won, maybe rant about him being mean to her or smth. While Yona now knows Soo-won very much wanted to see her in fact.

Lili literally saw what state Soo-won was in when she ignored him bleeding out on the floor in Yona’s favor, he was literally two steps away. Unless she’s secretly blind like her father I don’t think she missed that.

So you’re telling me after seeing him like that she didn’t worry, didn’t stay to check on him or anything and just left home, and then when Joon-gi tells her he gave up the throne she’s suddenly all worried and legit asking “is he in bad health?”. I’m sorry what?

In this case really in the literal sense. Lily, like everybody else, thinks Soo Won can take it. Whatever it is. Hak thought that Soo Won can win against the gods. Mei Nyan also thinks, that he somehow manages.

Yeah let's ask Mr "i will be fine " Every time someone is concerned for his safety about who's fault is that

My what a shame. That I babbled a little too soon...

But nobody told me beforehand...that this part here would be included.

1. Hak´s vision

Hak´s proposal, his vision is basically this:

1. A direct physical connection between Kouka, Xing, Sei and Kai in the form of streets in order to form trade routes

That sounds a lil bit too easy, right? Kaji has also doubts, if this will work. But Hak - like ever - believes...this guy can be so easily motivated.

2. Hak´s aim is a free circulation of people and goods between the different countries, between Kouka, Xing, Sei and both Kais.

3. And Hak also remarks upon politic alliances between Kouka, Sei and Xing.

Hak has the right idea, but he is basically putting the cart before the horse.

In the past this has really happened and it has -relatively - well worked in practice. If you have a better example, as I unfortunately have to rely on our European History, I am all ears.

2. A historical example of this plan

Well, what can I say, but welcome to the European Union.

This was the way this multilateral political and economic union in Europe was established.

There is a free circulation of goods and people in practice within this structure due to the Schengen agreement .

(And no this does not mean everything is sunshines and rainbows. There are still many problems on every level, still so many economic disparities between the countries, also political difficulties, but the danger for war between the different partners was successfully reduced. A good part of the economies depend upon this peace, after all).

The plan for this collaboration had the French Foreign Minister of that time, named Robert Schuman.

The First and Second World War had so heavily damaged the countries worldwide, but also in Europe, where the cause of the war had erupted. Twice. So Schuman aimed

To prevent further wars in Europe.

18 April 1951 – the European Coal and Steel Community was established. Important resources for war were controlled on a supranational level.

(of course Western Germany had been one of them as it was the cause of the previous two wars. Along with 5 other members).

25 March 1957 – Treaties of Rome

It was a success, so they expanded their collaboration to other economic sectors. The European Economic Community and European Atomic Energy Community (Euratom).

19 March 1958 – Birth of the European Parliament

From the economic union...this lead to an establishment of higher political structures. The European Parliament with Schuman as its first elected President.

1 July 1968 – beginning of the Customs Union

The custom duties are removed among the 6 members.

A growing Community – the first new members join

Denmark, Ireland and the United Kingdom join the European Communities on 1 January 1973, raising the number of member countries to 9. The Arab-Israeli war of October 1973 triggers an energy crisis and economic problems in Europe. As the United Kingdom has already left, you can imagine, not everything is so nice and sweet, but well...

Democracy spreads in Europe with the overthrow of the dictatorships in Greece, Portugal and Spain. Regional policy starts to transfer huge sums of money to create jobs and infrastructure in poorer areas. The first direct elections by citizens of members of the European Parliament take place in 1979.

The changing face of Europe - the collapse of communism

The Polish trade union, Solidarity (Solidarność), and its leader Lech Walesa, become household names following the Gdansk shipyard strikes in the summer of 1980 for workers’ rights and political change. In 1981, Greece becomes the 10th member of the European Communities, and Spain and Portugal follow 5 years later. The end of the decade sees the collapse of communist regimes in Central and Eastern Europe.

A Europe without frontiers

In 1993, the single market is launched with the '4 freedoms' of free movement for people, goods, services and money. The 1990s is also the decade of 2 treaties – the Treaty on European Union (Maastricht Treaty) in 1993 and the Treaty of Amsterdam in 1999. Austria, Finland and Sweden join the EU in 1995, and a small village in Luxembourg gives its name to the Schengen agreement that will gradually allow people to travel to large parts of the EU without passport checks.

3. From the vision to reality

Yona had vowed to search for a way to peace...well...this could be it.

Economic and political collaboration between the different countries. Maybe even forming supranational structures. A world without borders between the 5 countries.

Hak´s vision is - at least - possible.

Soo Won, too, is working to redirect the King´s power to other people, opening up the established system...Most likely leading to the establishment of democracy in the future at one point.

And this most likely is the Dawn of Yona.

And I could throw up out of anger!!! We won´t see it!!! Damn!!!!

Only one chapter left...

That would not necessarily make the roads privately owned, but it raises some obvious questions: who controls that priority? What exactly does it permit? How long does it last? And how are smaller merchants or ordinary travellers protected from an infrastructure that could become effectively dominated by wealthy investors?

The idea is not impossible, but it is only the beginning of a policy, not its solution.

I would also distinguish between creating trade and reorganising trade that already exists.

The manga has already shown contact between Kouka and Kai, even when that contact took criminal forms such as smuggling and human trafficking. Jae-ha also wears clothing from the Kai Empire, which suggests that goods already circulate between countries. Trade therefore did not suddenly begin when Hak thought of connecting the roads.

What Hak is proposing could still be useful: safer and better-connected routes, more organised legal trade, fewer barriers, employment and perhaps common agreements between several countries. But that would be the expansion and formalisation of existing exchange, not the invention of international commerce.

So yes, perhaps this could become part of a genuine dawn: economic cooperation, safer routes, the movement of people and goods, and a redistribution of political power.

The problem is attributing that dawn specifically to Yona.

Every time I see Yona say, “A member of the royal family like myself cannot exist without the people,” I remember what she chose in the chalice, and whatever confidence I might have had in her disappears.

The same image also says:

“Even if it is hard, by thinking about and working to build a world where there will be no need for conflict in the future, I have found meaning in my life for the first time.”

Very beautiful. Very lofty. Very Saint Yona of Universal Peace.

The slight drawback is that, in the chalice, she chose to remain with the dragon warriors even though the world was described as a hell for the people who, according to her, give purpose to her very existence.

So her principle appears to contain a clause:

“I will build a world without conflict, provided that peace never requires me to surrender what I want to preserve.”

That is peace conditioned upon the emotional comfort of the person proclaiming it.

Although, admittedly, a devastated land may contain very little conflict if nobody has enough strength left to fight. The peace of the graveyard is still peace, I suppose. How efficient.

Yona’s declaration may be sincere and even beautiful. But it does not demonstrate knowledge, judgment, organisational ability, applied learning, institutional responsibility or any real understanding of what happened in the chalice.

Yona is no longer the Crimson Dragon. She is no longer a reincarnation. Without the dragon warriors, her actual abilities are laid bare.

She has lost the Crimson Dragon’s supernatural authority, the dragons’ visual and military impact, the bond that drew them towards her and the prophetic allure that captivated the people around her.

What remains now is the person: her education, intelligence, judgment, ability to listen, aptitude for coordination and capacity to learn from mistakes.

Saying that “Yona promised to seek a path towards peace” does not make every subsequent solution devised by somebody else her achievement. I can promise to end world hunger; if an agronomist develops a miraculous grain tomorrow, it does not automatically become The Dawn of Merrilyshadowymentor. Although I admit that the title has a certain presence.

At present, this remains Hak’s economic vision and Soo-won’s institutional work. Yona may desire peace and occupy the throne under which these changes occur, but neither the diagnosis nor the practical solutions originate with her.

At most, this is the dawn of Kouka. If we attribute it to particular individuals, it currently resembles the dawn imagined by Hak and politically enabled by Soo-won.

And there is no time left. Only one chapter remains, presumably the wedding, so nothing further will be said about any of this.

What Hak is proposing could still be useful: safer and better-connected routes, more organised legal trade, fewer barriers, employment and perhaps common agreements between several countries. But that would be the expansion and formalisation of existing exchange, not the invention of international commerce.

I think, I finally know, where I can put Hak. He is, like I mentioned and like you concluded- again - correctly: a visionary.

I think, he has good ideas. He imagines the "M"stage, but currently we are maybe at the "B"-stage.

My proposition is maybe stage "X". Between all stages there are quite many steps between them. (I just used this stage and example as a way to demonstrate that Hak is NOT only dreaming or that his dreams are not impossible. Currently he just lacks the reason to reach the stages.

And his big, big problem is: He always imagines the way to this point as way too easy.

Kaji - reason - is literally in the picture to remind him and us, that what he is doing is "dreaming". Hak is a big dreamer.

In the positive way, he can find new solutions, visions, even if he is not yet aware how he should come to this point yet. But in the negative way this guy becomes delusional.

These are not correct conclusions yet. They are visions. Ideas.

Besides my intention was to demonstrate that the different ideas of Hak, Yona and Soo Won could work in a certain way together, as the international solution has - literally - happened in the past.

I would also distinguish between creating trade and reorganising trade that already exists. The manga has already shown contact between Kouka and Kai, even when that contact took criminal forms such as smuggling and human trafficking. Jae-ha also wears clothing from the Kai Empire, which suggests that goods already circulate between countries. Trade therefore did not suddenly begin when Hak thought of connecting the roads.

Indeed.

(And Nene is - literally - a merchant. She has connections to South Kai. Lily had knowledge neither Soo Won, nor Yona possesssed, because her mother has likely taken her along with her. Yun ho also is working as a sort of merchant. Kija is becoming a merchant - the white village is opening up to the world. Kaji is a botanist.)

I had to think about it, how Kusanagi may connect Hak´s idea and the next chapter.)

So yes, perhaps this could become part of a genuine dawn: economic cooperation, safer routes, the movement of people and goods, and a redistribution of political power. The problem is attributing that dawn specifically to Yona.

It was always like this. Even within her groupe. It was rarely Yona, who had the idea. Who is the first to run. She is a more passive character.

Yoon knew of the Izra seeds and wished to find them. He also had helped the people of the Fire Tribe, his people, way before Yona made the suggestion to become the "Happy Hungry Bunch".

Still Soo Won sees "flowers in her footsteps".

Kusanagi has even mentioned it in an interview. Without Soo Won pushing her out of the castle, she would have never developed like this. And she would have also not gone out at all. She was happy in her bubble, why bother?

And this we can see in the arc with the dragon gods. Without Zeno leaving her, she would have not even noticed, that "her friends" were merely the dragon gods. She tends to fall easily for illusions. Like Hak.

Here it was Zeno, who acted as "the sword". The one to free her from the illusion.

Every time I see Yona say, “A member of the royal family like myself cannot exist without the people,” I remember what she chose in the chalice, and whatever confidence I might have had in her disappears.

I would like to say: Don´t. But it is hard to persuade other people with the way Yona is. She does "something", and this "something" I wish to demonstrate. And it is not so "obvious". Therefore it is sometimes like searching for the needle in the haystack.

“I will build a world without conflict, provided that peace never requires me to surrender what I want to preserve.” That is peace conditioned upon the emotional comfort of the person proclaiming it. Although, admittedly, a devastated land may contain very little conflict if nobody has enough strength left to fight. The peace of the graveyard is still peace, I suppose. How efficient.

Indeed. Yona is selfish and she is sometimes even pretty passive. Good for her, that the whole world is different from her.

Yona is no longer the Crimson Dragon. She is no longer a reincarnation. Without the dragon warriors, her actual abilities are laid bare. She has lost the Crimson Dragon’s supernatural authority, the dragons’ visual and military impact, the bond that drew them towards her and the prophetic allure that captivated the people around her. What remains now is the person: her education, intelligence, judgment, ability to listen, aptitude for coordination and capacity to learn from mistakes.

Indeed. Along with the real relationships she built. And she is still learning.

Saying that “Yona promised to seek a path towards peace” does not make every subsequent solution devised by somebody else her achievement. I can promise to end world hunger; if an agronomist develops a miraculous grain tomorrow, it does not automatically become The Dawn of Merrilyshadowymentor. Although I admit that the title has a certain presence.

Yes, without doubt. Yona got the spotlight and might still retain the spotlight. However, like you said, it is very unfair. Maybe this might change.

At present, this remains Hak’s economic vision and Soo-won’s institutional work. Yona may desire peace and occupy the throne under which these changes occur, but neither the diagnosis nor the practical solutions originate with her. At most, this is the dawn of Kouka. If we attribute it to particular individuals, it currently resembles the dawn imagined by Hak and politically enabled by Soo-won.

Soo Won and Hak are right now in a good position to make this change. Along with everybody else.

And there is no time left. Only one chapter remains, presumably the wedding, so nothing further will be said about any of this. The dawn therefore rests upon an economic project formulated by Hak and an institutional reform driven by Soo-won, while Yona thinks very intensely about how much the people matter.

Lili literally saw what state Soo-won was in when she ignored him bleeding out on the floor in Yona’s favor, he was literally two steps away. Unless she’s secretly blind like her father I don’t think she missed that.

So you’re telling me after seeing him like that she didn’t worry, didn’t stay to check on him or anything and just left home, and then when Joon-gi tells her he gave up the throne she’s suddenly all worried and legit asking “is he in bad health?”. I’m sorry what?

In this case really in the literal sense. Lily, like everybody else, thinks Soo Won can take it. Whatever it is. Hak thought that Soo Won can win against the gods. Mei Nyan also thinks, that he somehow manages.

Zeno looked like a mess, too.

Yeah but Yona Lili noticed instantly and ran to her specifically, ignoring Soo-won covered in blood completely? Idk really…so bad. The plot holes are pulling on my nerves.

Additionally, Lily and Soo Won do not have such a bond like Yona and Lily. Not yet. And Soo Won did not make it easier for her either. When she showed him any concern, he basically treated her pretty coldly. Most likely she thought she was dumb for even caring in the first place. She cannot mind-read. And the mixed signals do not help.

When she showed him any concern, he basically treated her pretty coldly.

I get that. She ignored him while he was covered in blood and clearly went through hell, and just went home. No wonder he was surprised they’re friends and was suspicious of her intentions.

Both told each other, again and again, that they do not care for each other. Lily is basically a girl´s girl

That much is true, yes. They do have a less warm relationship than her with Yona (which is built on emotional connection first and foremost), while with him it was more neutral and distanced. And they kept insisting they’re not close. But since she apparently does care and worry for him I don’t get why was her reaction even “delayed” then. Thats why I suspect it’s a “mistake” or lack of space on pages, whatever cause it doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Maybe they aren´t plot holes...

I get that. She ignored him while he was covered in blood and clearly went through hell, and just went home. No wonder he was surprised they’re friends and was suspicious of her intentions.

After having thought about it, I do think, the scene is consistent.

If your observation doesn´t fit the category you wished to put the character in, than the situation is more nuanced. The category does not 100 % fit you put the character in.

Previously I claimed Lily was rational? Right? I was partly wrong. She does have - consistent -irregularities in some fields. Lily is really Soo Won´s equal. Even in being a coward in romantic situations.

1. It was not a plot hole, that Lily did not run to Soo Won then.

2. Because she correctly wondered, if he was in bad health. How? If she had not seen him covered in blood, she would not know, that he had been hurt?!! (This was something we should have noticed! You did!)

3. Jon Gi did not tell her any reason, because he did - frankly - not care.

4. That is the reason Lily is so agitated. Because she had pretended not to see the last time. That is why she is in a daze. She realized that she has made a horrible mistake.

(You are right. You are so right. Do you have a good intuition? May I ask? Do you see visions, too? Not in the way, that you see angels...but do you "know" things without really being able to explain it? This is for me so...I "see" some things, I come to conclusions because I can already see nearly the whole picture, but I struggle with taking the single steps. That is why I cannot really explain, what I mean.)

5. Lily felt guilty, when she came to him. She felt guilty, because she had ignored it before. So she showed him this time that she cared. (Lily acted a little strange in front of him. A lot more timid than she is - usually.) Lily has to become loud again!

6. Soo Won does - for the first time show that he is hurt. Badly hurt by her behaviour. He does not want to see her.

Soo Won frankly feels like crap, very weak and Lily is the last person he wants to see. I think it must be also shameful for him, that people see him like this. Now he does not want any kind of sympathy.

7. He questions her, if they are really friends. And why she would worry for him. (I think, he is more cranky about Xing, than her not running to him. As I am not even sure, if he saw, that she was there in the first place. He was still in a daze, after all.

Soo Won had been hurt since the Xing Arc. He hasn´t treated her like his friend since then.

8. He does rebuff her and Lily appears to be slighly taken aback. (It is from Shin ha, not me. Absolutely not from her.) The snail is back in her house.

9. Lily does not appear to visit him ever, but completely pushes herself onto Yona. Questioning about "HER LOVE LIFE". She needs to badly to know it, that she basically invites herself into Yona´s room.

The way it is framed it appears that Lily is trying to "sleep" with Yona. So there is some romantic allusion. Keishuk cannot hinder Lily anymore.

10. Lily is really not alright. She has lost General Geuntae and her significant other does not appear to like her at all. He hardly wants to be her friend.

Have mercy! Lily has lost her father!

11. Trauma

Once upon a time there was Nene, who became strong after her husband has betrayed her. She did it for her daughter. The daughter she loved so much and Lily knew, how much her mother loved her.

It is not unlikely, when her husband has betrayed her, that she wished to kill herself. But she didn´t do it. She loved Lily too much. So she became strong for Lily´s sake and Lily, too, wished to be strong for her mother. So she went out to learn her father´s occupation. In order to become her mother´s strength...

She wouldn´t forgive her father. Even after her mother would have died. She vowed.

But Lily had seen it, that her mother was at her end. Nearly she would have lost her mother.

She will become her mother´s sword, her protector.

Lily has to rescue her naive mother, who was badly hurt by a man again.

"Do not marry a man who is like your father," her mother adviced her daughter.

"Marry somebody, who loves his wife and is a trusthworthy man."

Who could be more ideal, than General Geuntae?

His wife Yun ho, Lily liked, too.

Lily would have married Yun ho, if she was a man.

Yun ho was just so dear to General Geuntae...

(Certainly not the guy, whom even grown-up men considered cute.)

Incredible kind and cute...Who could possibly resemble Yun ho? Dunno?

A guy who is very cute and kind...Hmmm

And then she met Soo Won - a delicate man with long hair. They both clicked instantly.

She had not to pretend to be any different in front of him.

Everytime he threw her off...

Actually...it was too late anyway...

"Though it was pretty clear, that he was not exactly into her,"Lily thought.

Since there was "no way!"...

Lili literally saw what state Soo-won was in when she ignored him bleeding out on the floor in Yona’s favor, he was literally two steps away. Unless she’s secretly blind like her father I don’t think she missed that.

So you’re telling me after seeing him like that she didn’t worry, didn’t stay to check on him or anything and just left home, and then when Joon-gi tells her he gave up the throne she’s suddenly all worried and legit asking “is he in bad health?”. I’m sorry what?

In this case really in the literal sense. Lily, like everybody else, thinks Soo Won can take it. Whatever it is. Hak thought that Soo Won can win against the gods. Mei Nyan also thinks, that he somehow manages.

Zeno looked like a mess, too.

Yeah but Yona Lili noticed instantly and ran to her specifically, ignoring Soo-won covered in blood completely? Idk really…so bad. The plot holes are pulling on my nerves.

Additionally, Lily and Soo Won do not have such a bond like Yona and Lily. Not yet. And Soo Won did not make it easier for her either. When she showed him any concern, he basically treated her pretty coldly. Most likely she thought she was dumb for even caring in the first place. She cannot mind-read. And the mixed signals do not help.

The Hak x Yona wedding feels like the most likely send off we're getting... love triangle between Su-Won/Kurif/Lili is impossible lmao.

The political side of the story is the real tragedy. It fell apart a long time ago and never recovered... the author gave up.

So much buildup for basically nothing. North Kai, an entire big bad empire built as a looming threat, never existed. Magical lake never existed. All epic geopolitical tension gone.

Prophecy never explained. Yona damning the dragon warriors over generations never explained. Yona standing at the cliff with her sword... no pay off for that. No information about Kashi. Iksu never appeared. Titia never returned. Hak's origins never explored. Hairpin making a last minute cameo (if we're lucky).

But it’s also true they were about…nothing really? We got two new characters, a good deal of Meinyan’s pointless yapping, saw Yona run around the castle and get beaten up, saw Soo-won drink honey, Lili appeared, Hak travelled a bit. But for Christ’s sake three chapters and they didn’t tell us anything clear or resolve any of the plot holes when there are so many! We have not “moved” anywhere in the story.

I enjoyed the Gaiden chapters too, mainly because the pacing was slow enough that it felt like the series had never ended. If there were 1-2 more major arcs like there should have been, the gaiden's pacing was fine.

But we're only getting 4 chapters for the Gaiden. FOUR. The absolute last thing I care about are Kija-Hak banter or Su-Won drinking Sin-ha's honey fluff. That's filler energy. I needed actual story progression.

Politics. Drama. Battles. Mystery. Timeskips. Real romantic payoff.

Imagine instead: Yona at the Kai summit. North Kai being what it should have been. The lake being relevant. Su-Won shaken because Nene looks just like Kashi. Lili and Su-Won falling in love. Show the hairpin mattering again and appearing at a dramatic moment. Hak screaming at Su-Won for giving Yona the hairpin, and Su-Won finally breaking. Hak and Yona's marriage and having children. Mundok's death. Yona visiting Il's grave. Su-Won explaining the details of his coup to Hak and Yona at last. Etc. etc.

Once again, I do think the dragon god resolution was garbage, and shouldn't have been wrapped up so neatly and early in a bow as it was.

You know, at the pace we’re at I’m starting to doubt Hak and Yona are even getting married lol.

I mean yeah but devastatingly the main story already finished so no gaiden would ever have that. We got Yona dancing towards the sunlight with a crown on her head after not contributing at all to her own battle with the dragon gods (don’t even get me started on the mausoleum arc, it’s the most miserable sh^t I’ve read in my life). That unfortunately was the end of the plot according to the author, so I didn’t expect to have massive political discussions anymore.

I expected character plot holes to be filled in, at least the major ones. I really fail to understand why the author did not make a properly final arc after the mausoleum one. The gaiden shows she didn’t stop imagining stuff, brought in new characters and has ideas, why didn’t she just take the break she needed and write a few more volumes? Beats me.

What beats me even more now is why does she keep bringing in new characters if she can’t make proper endings for existing ones? We have one chapter left and what do we have? Yona and Hak didn’t even get officially engaged, for about 10 chapters now Yona has been spending more time with Soo-won than she does with Hak. Soo-won is being shown a sad, lonely cripple, when is he recovering and becoming a true counselor? What the hell is going on with Lili (why was he waiting for her), and he still didn’t go see Ogi. Where’s the Hak and Soo-won talk? Where is the hairpin??? Is Zeno staying as a pet in the castle or what is he going to do with his new life now? No good old timeskip for us?

Politically speaking, what’s going to happen to South Kai really? Chagol is dead, who’s ruling now? Kouka won the war, is it not benefiting from it in any way?

I think what I described above is the bare minimum we should’ve gotten in the finale, preferably more stuff to make it full.

I guess if even the wedding doesn't happen, even the Hakyona shippers will think this is a bad ending.

true, the series went off the rails with the nonsensical time loop/yandere god shit a while ago, so the damage is irreversible. But it doesn't change my disgust. 200 ch of investment for this trash...

Politically speaking, what’s going to happen to South Kai really? Chagol is dead, who’s ruling now? Kouka won the war, is it not benefiting from it in any way?

I dunno if the author even cares LMAO. North and South Kai don't seem to exist anymore, all for a wedding that hasn't even happened.

after not contributing at all to her own battle with the dragon gods

She became a damsel in distress in her final arc, and whatever she believed in nearly always turned out to be true. There's little tension, subversion, literally nothing. her coronation was lifeless and hollow.

why does she keep bringing in new characters if she can’t make proper endings for existing ones?

This. Lili's mom seems cool but has zero plot relevance unless she's giving Su-Won her blessings to marry Lili. Which is unlikely in the last 30 pages anyway.

for about 10 chapters now Yona has been spending more time with Soo-won than she does with Hak.

LMAO it's genuinely insane. Yona and Su-Won never even got enough interactions and closure yet Hakyona has less.

Soo-won is being shown a sad, lonely cripple, when is he recovering and becoming a true counselor? What the hell is going on with Lili (why was he waiting for her), and he still didn’t go see Ogi. Where’s the Hak and Soo-won talk?

I'm also pissed that we have zero introspection from Su-Won about any of the new changes in his life. By introspection I don't mean talking to Yona, or Hak, but to us as readers.

We needed to get inside his head. How he is quietly and painfully trying to find out what he even wants from life now he stepped down, what he believes Kouka will become, what he feels about his father, maybe even realizing the answer to this all could be Lili.

The same way we had his 1st person POV during his coronation, we deserved to see his inner world.

I’m getting vibes of ch 276 so I’m prepared for a miserable sight in those last 30 pages. Whatever it is, it can’t be good.

Same. This chapter Hak was telling Lili's mom that he only serves under one person... I'm inclined to think he will never call his queen by name or try to be her equal. Peak romance right there.

You could literally make a spin-off or continuation in some way with the next generation for a couple of chapters. New problems ect...At least then, we could see how the problems were solved or if they were left wide open for the next people to solve them.

I'm also pissed that we have zero introspection from Su-Won about any of the new changes in his life. By introspection I don't mean talking to Yona, or Hak, but to us as readers.

I would love to know, what he thinks and plans for his own life. Does he just intend to never leave the castle at all? Has he never had the wish to visit the descendants?

He is 18 years old, but he appears as if he has already lived a thousand years.

The other person, who is just mopping around is Zeno. The reactions of those two is to be expected as they let go of their "missions". Those two were pretty driven characters so them just having problems is to be expected.

We also have never seen, how Soo Won is really crying. Lily has promised us this. What a pity.

Same. This chapter Hak was telling Lili's mom that he only serves under one person… I'm inclined to think he will never call his queen by name or try to be her equal. Peak romance right there.

You are right. Andre has called Oscar at least by name. The "Rose of Versailles" seems to be an inspiration for this manga.

I expected character plot holes to be filled in, at least the major ones. I really fail to understand why the author did not make a properly final arc after the mausoleum one. The gaiden shows she didn’t stop imagining stuff, brought in new characters and has ideas, why didn’t she just take the break she needed and write a few more volumes? Beats me.

Indeed. She could have written another 20 chapters. I also do not understand, why she did not just took her time and continued the series in another magazine if possible. It got another season after all. If she had made a glorious ending this could have pushed her popularity.

I mean yeah but devastatingly the main story already finished so no gaiden would ever have that. We got Yona dancing towards the sunlight with a crown on her head after not contributing at all to her own battle with the dragon gods (don’t even get me started on the mausoleum arc, it’s the most miserable sh^t I’ve read in my life).That unfortunately was the end of the plot according to the author, so I didn’t expect to have massive political discussions anymore.

The mausoleum arc is senseful in my opinion, but there are too many problems left unfortunately. And there are far too many plot revelant points that has never got resolved at all. Maybe I make another list...I found even more...

All one can hope is, that there is some spin-off...however this might be really in vain.

So based on the recent summary for this chapter I saw after making my posts, it seems that Hak was actually doing ground-level work and thinking for the country's welfare more (and South and North Kai were mentioned once offhandedly), so it seems they do exist after all, but will never be explored in-story. Still a waste ultimately.

Hak's introspection is actually the same kind of introspection I'm looking for from Su-Won... the pace is still too slow.

Also the Rose of Versailles... Oscar's romance with Andre I did not much care for (especially after his SA attempt, although I liked their childhood friendship prior), but the political/historical elements at least ended with no loose threads.

The mausoleum arc is senseful in my opinion

I do believe that the "Rose of Versailles", Lady Oscar might be a progenitor of Soo Won and Yona. You can literally see, that she split even the hair between these two. Yona got the curls and Soo Won the hair color. Andre resembles Hak in his devotion.

Even the genderbending with the dualism of Soo Won (male) and Yona (female) is brought in this manga. Lady Oscar is a woman, who is raised like a man. As a noble she starts to understand the pain the nobility and the king cause the people, so she takes part in the French Revolution and dies in the process.

(Yes, I disliked the SA scene, too. But if you watch a lot of older anime like Mila Superstar, you realize that such things like beating the shit out of children was - unfortantely- pretty normal.)

So based on the recent summary for this chapter I saw after making my posts, it seems that Hak was actually doing ground-level work and thinking for the country's welfare more (and South and North Kai were mentioned once offhandedly), so it seems they do exist after all, but will never be explored in-story. Still a waste ultimately.

This is nice. He did come a long way. I am glad of it. So a little more political stuff, after we have never got to see the Emperor of North Kai - the guy, who is -according to Zeno - like King Il.

Hak's introspection is actually the same kind of introspection I'm looking for from Su-Won… the pace is still too slow.

I would be also highly interested, what Soo Won is currently thinking about his parents, Yona´s father...if he really doesn´t believe, that his father killed Kashi. Hiyoori has also vanished as if he had not existed at all.

But it is strange, that Nene appeared at all. Maybe she wanted to show Lily´s mother. But if you have merely 4 chapters, you have not much space to waste.

I also think Zeno's descent into suicidal intent and heading to the mausoleum made perfect sense. Where things go off the rail for me was the dragon god yandere arc, and how it was handled.

After analyzing this part for a while, I do believe the arc makes sense in its entirety. In fact some things happen there, that are quite surprising and nobody seemed to have noticed before - myself included.

I definitely think that Lady Oscar is a progenitor as well. She inspired Griffith from Berserk which Kusanagi most certainly takes from, in regards to Su-Won especially, with the whole androgynous, otherworldly beauty.

I must also say, Lady Oscar is a far more compelling protagonist to me than Yona, despite them both being in very different types of stories. I did not dislike Yona initially but she really fell flat in the latter half. But I think Yona definitely has taken inspiration from her too.

Personality wise, I'd place Oscar closer to Hak than Su-Won. She embodies the dutiful knight archetype. The difference though between her and Hak is that Oscar's sense of duty is her entire architecture. She devotes herself to a cause or ideal. Hak's devotion to a single person is definitely more like Andre.

we have never got to see the Emperor of North Kai - the guy, who is -according to Zeno - like King Il.

I think his name was Sheng Hong? Chagol was jealous of him, and there was something about how he had purer blood and everyone wanted to be near him or something. Titia also died after marrying him according to Kuelbo. Don't think we'll ever see the guy.

the dragon god arc is fitting for the topics of this manga

I know they had to appear at some point but one huge mistake imo was setting the entire arc into a tiny cup. I think it would have been far cooler if the dragon gods had actually entered the physical realm of Kouka and tore through the landscape themselves. They did already appear a few times in the real world but there was nothing too crazy.

Oscar was, like Soo Won, a noble and was influenced by her father´s teachings. Like him, she has to let go painfully of her current position. She throws it away at the end in order to follow her heart.

Soo Won had to let go off Yu hon´s "brainwashing"...of the whole culture he was raised in and that influenced his whole thinking patterns. Partly it is still there, but not anymore in a bad way.

I think, Kusanagi might have thought of a way in order to let "Griffith" and "Oscar" live. The Rose of Versaille is in itself partly a painful tragedy, because the heroine dies, along with Andre. Griffith most likely will also die for his sins, even though he became the saviour, the world has wished for.

But Soo Won still lives and this might make a difference.

I think his name was Sheng Hong? Chagol was jealous of him, and there was something about how he had purer blood and everyone wanted to be near him or something. Titia also died after marrying him according to Kuelbo. Don't think we'll ever see the guy.

You have a great memory! Then he really is like King Il, who was partly pretty obsessed with "Yon hi´s blood". Wonderful. It all fits so greatly.

I guess, we might not need it. Zeno was absolutely against him. He knew, that he resembled King Il and reminded Yona of that fact.

It appears, Zeno has to be kicked out of his stupor. Hopefully, the unsatisfied people wake him from his depression. He is needed.

Lily...can you do it for him? You are great at mobilising people after all and he nearly would have not been able to flee from you. Lily is also with Ogi, who is a literal information broker. Could be that the information Lily gathers is a lil bit different from Hak´s.

The pacing is so hilariously slow. This could be very big and great, if just more chapters were left.

I know they had to appear at some point but one huge mistake imo was setting the entire arc into a tiny cup. I think it would have been far cooler if the dragon gods had actually entered the physical realm of Kouka as divine being who have no patience for mortal politics and tore through the landscape themselves. They did already appear a few times in the real world but there was nothing too crazy.

Yup, would have been cool. But unfortantely, it would have went against the message she tries to convey with her work. "Gods only watch from the heavens", after all.

The joke is that Soo Won was not wrong; not entirely at least.

In and itself, this work is pretty consistent. If the dragon gods could have done this, they would have not needed the dragon warriors in the first place. Imagine, the whole story would have been nonsensical, if the dragon gods could freely interact with our world.

The dragon gods cannot really interact with our world. They literally needed four guys, who "sold their souls to the devil" hust...like in Berserk there is hardly a difference between a god and a devil.

Of course, they could take over the dragon warriors bodies, but I think, since their power "killed" the dragon warriors, they merely did this in case of need.

Yona "handled" her friends so completely naive, because she was not aware, that the more they fought, the smaller their lives became...

How did Zeno say: "a tit for tat". Power in exchange for the lives of the dragon warriors.

Zeno broke, when he realized that they would all die...that his children all would die for Yona´s sake. He could sacrifice his own life, but not the one of his children.

Zeno was the greatest believer, but he fell from grace, when he should sacrifice his children. And when he broke, he was partly freed.

And if that had triggered something on the Kai side? Having phoenix mythology become relevant as a counterforce would have been cooler.

From my perspective, this manga does not wish to enforce such believes, but rather to "deconstruct" it.

The phoenix refered to Chagol, who used everything in his grasp...power, mythology to attain strength. Chagol is basically similar to Yona, as he also has a "mythological emblem/guardian"...He is the big, strong leader, but his point of view resembles more Yu hon´s...but worse. Far worse.

It took a long time until I understood, why she did not wish to create such a thing....the point was...that gods were not needed. The supernatural has never been needed.

Yes, like Su-Won, Oscar was a noble who had to break free from her father, but her arc is also like Hak in that it centers on her disillusionment with the nobility. Unlike Su-Won, she has a stricter moral code. She's an knight serving the elite like Hak, surrounded by their decadence and conspiracy.

Eventually she chooses the people... which Su-Won does share similarities with. But his utilitarianism is not taken from Oscar. Su-Won is a politician calculating for the greater good. Oscar is a knight who rejects a corrupt government in the name of conscience.

Also, Oscar didn't seem to idolize her father. She is grateful to him for giving her certain freedoms but at one point she demands that he stop treating her like a puppet. The 1979 anime adaptation made him even harsher and had him beating and throwing her down the stairs (borderline abusive). It was strained.

I always wished Oscar's dynamic with her father was explored further, yet even it is more explored than Su-Won's dynamic with Yu-Hon.

I think, Kusanagi might have thought of a way in order to let "Griffith" and "Oscar" live.

Oscar is heroic, while Griffith is a villain. But yes, Su-Won is perhaps the version of Griffith who lives (he didn't commit rape or kill off his entire band, and he has more sympathetic motivations, so his redemption isn't as difficult).

You have a great memory! Then he really is like King Il, who was partly pretty obsessed with "Yon hi´s blood". Wonderful. It all fits so greatly.

Ah, sorry if I caused a misunderstanding. Chagol, not the North Kai emperor, was obsessed with North Kai's royal blood. As far as the North Kai emperor's personality, I don't remember at all.

"Gods only watch from the heavens", after all. If the dragon gods could have done this, they would have not needed the dragon warriors in the first place.

I mean I think it could have hit harder if they finally managed to go down to Earth because it would show that they could have had the power to change things all along and remove the illnesses and suffering but had chosen not to out of spite. And when they do descend? It's to cause more trouble. Or maybe there is a cost to them descending but they are finally pushed to such violence that they no longer care.

The phoenix refered to Chagol, who used everything in his grasp...power, mythology to attain strength. Chagol is basically similar to Yona, as he also has a "mythological emblem/guardian"...He is the big, strong leader, but his point of view resembles more Yu hon´s...but worse. Far worse.

Hmm, when was Kai's mythology ever mentioned? As far as I remember right now, phoenixes were only used on the flag and on his head. But there was no explanation for why or how it came to be.

The most we have is that Kai and Kouka were once one country and an allegation that the dragon warriors were born from Kai's magical lake, which never came up again.

It took a long time until I understood, why she did not wish to create such a thing....the point was...that gods were not needed. The supernatural has never been needed.

Yes, but overall I still find their whole motivation and resolutions very shallow and strange. Them being yanderes, Yona forgiving them easily, it doesn't feel earned.

I would partly disagree, as Soo Won partly also took action, because he saw the horrible effects of King Il´s rule. His moral code let him take actions against King Il. He completely broke down, when he had to admit, that he also wished revenge. Soo Won is hard against others, but also against himself.

But yes, Soo Won is not that loyal in comparison, he is far more critical.

Are you sure that Hak has been disullisioned with the nobility? He calls Yona his master, after all. He has just swapt out "one king" for a "queen".

Eventually she chooses the people… which Su-Won does share similarities with. But his utilitarianism is not taken from Oscar. Su-Won is a politician calculating for the greater good. Oscar is a knight who rejects a corrupt government in the name of conscience.

Well, Soo Won, too, had to learn to choose the people, even though his thinking pattern still exists.

But yes, Oscar is more idealistic, like Yona. But she also dies for this idealism.

Also, Oscar didn't seem to idolize her father. She is grateful to him for giving her certain freedoms but at one point she demands that he stop treating her like a puppet.

Her father didn´t die, when she was just a child, merely having shadows and a couple of rare memories from her father. Oscar faced her father, when she was an adult. This is an important difference.

This whole deal would have not happened, if King Il had not killed his brother, that you can believe.

I always wished Oscar's dynamic with her father was explored further, yet even it is more explored than Su-Won's dynamic with Yu-Hon.

Yes, Yu hon was a distant father, whom Soo Won could adore and admire, because he hardly knew him really. Yu hon had loved King Il so greatly, that he allowed that King Il killed him rather than directing his sword against his brother.

But Soo Won could not face his real father. The "bad" , but also the "good" in him.

Oscar is heroic, while Griffith is a villain. But yes, Su-Won is perhaps the version of Griffith who lives (he didn't commit rape or kill off his entire band, and he has more sympathetic motivations, so his redemption isn't as difficult).

Soo Won and Griffith are still distinctly different people. Soo Won broke, before he could sacrifice the people he loved. Griffith chose their deaths in order to flee his feelings. But Soo Won was not that great of a coward.

He changed his way, after he broke instead of blindly following a belief. This is the main difference.

Ah, sorry if I caused a misunderstanding. Chagol, not the North Kai emperor, was obsessed with North Kai's royal blood. As far as the North Kai emperor's personality, I don't remember at all.

Interesting, than it is Chagol, who is a mix between Yu hon and King Il?

Hmm, when was Kai's mythology ever mentioned? As far as I remember right now, phoenixes were only used on the flag and on his head. But there was no explanation for why or how it came to be.

Oh, this is easy. Soo Won is the falcon. A bird, but still an animal of this world, while Chagol chose a mythical animal. A phoenix...a bird that never really dies. it resurrects itself.

He resembles Yona...as the meaning of "Yona" is the "lotus". A flower that stands for new beginnings and renewal as far as i could decipher.

Chagol made a great show, how he is undefeatable and won´t die. His cult of strength resembles Yu hon, but he is basically so strong, that he can basically make a "personal cult" around his person.

He is the glorious phoenix that will never die...ect...

Chagol also literally steals the vessel with the dragon blood, because he believes, he would hurt Soo Won. Soo Won, however, does not care, it is Yona whom he hurts deeply. She is dependant on the cult of Hiryuu. Yona knew, how people perceived her and that she could gain power from it. Like Chagol.

I mean I think it could have hit harder if they finally managed to go down to Earth because it would show that they could have had the power to change things all along and remove the illnesses and suffering but had chosen not to out of spite. And when they do descend? It's to cause more trouble. Or maybe there is a cost to them descending but they are finally pushed to such violence that they no longer care.

I think her point was rather that people should not blindly believe in god/the gods, but rather take action themselves. This fact shattered Zeno´s belief entirely. Not the fact, that they considered him as bad, but that the gods had never had the chance to change anything.

All his screams for the gods completely in vain. It was really, like Soo Won had said...Gods that watch from the heavens. Their selfishness was another point, but the inability really made the difference.

The ones with the power to change things, are only people. Not gods.

Also they would have not needed the dragon warriors at all, if they had interefered themselves. So her whole story would have collapsed.

Yes, but overall I still find their whole motivation and resolutions very shallow and strange. Them being yanderes, Yona forgiving them easily, it doesn't feel earned.

Their motivation was merely to keep Hiryuu safe. They would have killed every single human being, if they just could have protected Hiryuu. That is how much they loved him. They literally died for him.

The dragon gods knew all along, that the "fulfillment of the prophecy" would lead to their deaths.

Hiryuu was like them. The human beings were like flies to them. Dying easily and unimportant.

Yona has not really suffered under them, didn´t she? She could literally not understand Zeno, because she has always been spared the consequences.

I mean, they had threathened her, but at the end, she felt Hiryuu´s feelings...When she had used the sword, she understood, that Hiryuu had loved the dragon gods, like she loved the dragon warriors. She had believed, that she had killed Kija herself. This demonstrated her, how much the dragon gods loved Hiryuu and how much Hiryuu had loved them.

If you understand a person, you can feel with them. Since she could understand them, she wished to help them. And the dragon gods wished to help her, too, at the end.

It should be noted: The dragon gods were vicious, but Hak and Soo Won would have died, if she had not forgiven them.

Why introduce a supernatural aspect to your universe at all without proper depth? Su-Won has a valid point but I really do think Hiryuu and the dragon gods deserved more nuanced motivations, backstory and resolution. I think the answer should have been more complex than "these yanderes are not needed".

Partly yes, but Su-Won was also influenced by his father's ways of thought (and his father did have a point that Kouka needed a strong ruler). But Oscar rebelled against her father. General Jarjeyes wanted her to protect the royal family, she defected.

He completely broke down, when he had to admit, that he also wished revenge. Soo Won is hard against others, but also against himself.

Definitely, and that differentiates Oscar from Su-Won. I don't think Oscar would go after revenge like Su-Won, she even told Rosalie that there was no point in revenge.

Oscar's personality is otherwise more hot-headed than Su-Won. Her first instinct is to fight. Su-Won would rather analyze the situation first.

Are you sure that Hak has been disullisioned with the nobility? He calls Yona his master, after all. He has just swapt out "one king" for a "queen".

You made an excellent point. Yes, Hak made an offhanded comment about not trusting nobility in chapter 3, but that does not compare to Oscar's arc. Hak's entire arc has been about serving one noble, and he continues to serve. Oscar switch from protecting the nobility to protecting the people. Other than the knight archetype, she is not like Hak either.

Her father didn´t die, when she was just a child, merely having shadows and a couple of rare memories from her father. This whole deal would have not happened, if King Il had not killed his brother, that you can believe.

Circumstances matter of course, but Su-Won also intended to die for his father even prior to his death, which definitely was idolization. Of course we don't have very much to go off of other than that, but I don't think Su-Won was the type to think against his father so vehemently:

Oscar and her father also formed opposing ideologies... didn't he attempt to murder her too for it? It was a strained relation. Meanwhile we never even got Su-Won thoughts on his father at the end.

Su-Won acknowledged Yona, he reevaluated how he shouldn't have killed Il, but there was no introspection on his own father. No reconciling his father's virtue with the brutality. No deciding that he will no longer live to carry out his father's will and not his own.

Well, Soo Won, too, had to learn to choose the people, even though his thinking pattern still exists.

He was choosing "the people" since he was nine. It was what his father had instilled in him, but it was more utilitarian (he viewed people as chess pieces, although he does eventually stop, or at least with his closest people). Oscar's development leads her to rebel against her father and choose the people. She rejects her own status all for ideals of liberty and equality. And yes, she dies for it... the Rose of Versailles showed realistic consequences for her idealism. It's a different type of story.

Yes, Yu hon was a distant father, whom Soo Won could adore and admire, because he hardly knew him really. But Soo Won could not face his real father. The "bad" , but also the "good" in him.

Yes, and that's something I wished the story of Yona would have explored. We needed more from Su-Won's perspective on him.

Soo Won broke, before he could sacrifice the people he loved. Griffith chose their deaths in order to flee his feelings. But Soo Won was not that great of a coward. He changed his way, after he broke instead of blindly following a belief. This is the main difference.

Very true, Su-Won is braver, and more selfless than Griffith. He was willing to change by the end.

Interesting, than it is Chagol, who is a mix between Yu hon and King Il?

Perhaps. I'm not usually fond of making too many parallels, since Mei and Val were Hak and Yona 2.0 which bored me greatly. But Zeno did indeed make a comparison between both Kai's and Kouka's situation with Il.

Oh, this is easy. Soo Won is the falcon. A bird, but still an animal of this world, while Chagol chose a mythical animal. A phoenix...a bird that never really dies. it resurrects itself.

True, but what I mean to say is that even prior to Chagol's existence, I assume Kai must have had a phoenix flag... but the reason or history/mythology behind it was not explained.

His cult of strength resembles Yu hon, but he is basically so strong, that he can basically make a "personal cult" around his person.

Many feared him and wanted him dead. He even said he could trust no one near the end of his life. I assumed there would be more explanations to his obsession with the North Kai emperor's blood.

I really also thought he would be revived....

Honestly I was not even slightly intrigued by Chagol as an antagonist until his death scene.

All his screams for the gods completely in vain. It was really, like Soo Won had said...Gods that watch from the heavens. Their selfishness was another point, but the inability really made the difference. The ones with the power to change things, are only people. Not gods. Also they would have not needed the dragon warriors at all, if they had interefered themselves. So her whole story would have collapsed.

Good point, but I also don't think they had an "inability" to change things. That's the main difference. They are gods. Su-Won does not believe in godly power, but the series makes it clear that it exists, and even Su-Won hides its evidence. They chose to ruin people's lives.

Their motivation was merely to keep Hiryuu safe. They would have killed every single human being, if they just could have protected Hiryuu. That is how much they loved him. They literally died for him. Also they would have not needed the dragon warriors at all, if they had interefered themselves. So her whole story would have collapsed.

Yes, but WHY do they love him to such an obsessive level? What's the backstory? Why did he even decide to leave them to become human? Why didn't they just go down and become human themselves when he had done it? It's not explained.

They made a prophecy for some reason and forgot all about it too.

It should be noted: The dragon gods were vicious, but Hak and Soo Won would have died, if she had not forgiven them.

It was already written in their prophecy that Hak and Su-Won were the shield and sword.

It was really, like Soo Won had said...Gods that watch from the heavens. Their selfishness was another point, but the inability really made the difference.

I don't think they had the inability to remove the suffering at all, they chose not to help. They treated human beings like flies, and I do think they needed to be held accountable.

It is about the thoughts of human beings. Entirely about the point of views of different type of people. She wished to convey certain messages and this was - in my opinion - so important to her, that she neglected the romance.

I don't think the message that people should not rely on gods but themselves is inherently a bad message, but Hiryuu's backstory and reasons for coming down to Earth was not even explained.

Yona has not really suffered under them, didn´t she? She could literally not understand Zeno, because she has always been spared the consequences. It should be noted: The dragon gods were vicious, but Hak and Soo Won would have died, if she had not forgiven them.

Only after some time. Oscar still served under the king and the queen for a great deal of her time. Just like her father wished her to. Even though she had doubted with 14, if this truly was the right way for her.

Definitely, and that differentiates Oscar from Su-Won. I don't think Oscar would go after revenge like Su-Won, she even told Rosalie that there was no point in revenge.

I would say, this could happen, exactly because she is so hot-headed. I remember that she took revenge for a boy, a noble had just killed without a great reason. Oscar just cannot tolerate injustice...She could have been killed herself, but she still took the risk.

Circumstances matter of course, but Su-Won also intended to die for his father even prior to his death, which definitely was idolization. Of course we don't have very much to go off of other than that, but I don't think Su-Won was the type to think against his father so vehemently:

I think neither you, nor I can guarantee this. But idolzsation happens because the person is unkonwn to the person. If Soo Won had not lost his parents, he would have had opportunity to observe his father better. Actually, Soo Won has even reflected it in this time line and broke away from his father´s way. Or Yona would not be queen right now.

Before King Il killed Yu hon, Soo Won had not followed his father´s way as blindly, as he accepted and loved King Il, because he was kind. Only after the murder did Soo Won consider kindness a weakness.

Yes, and that's something I wished the story of Yona would have explored. We needed more from Su-Won's perspective on him.

Indeed.

Perhaps. I'm not usually fond of making too many parallels, since Mei and Val were Hak and Yona 2.0 which bored me greatly. But Zeno did indeed make a comparison between both Kai's and Kouka's situation with Il.

Every person in his manga mirrors another in some way. Meinyan is a mix between Yona, but also Soo Won. Like Soo Won she believed she needed to follow a way, that proved to be detrimental for her. She also followed in her father´s footsteps searching for the dragon warriors.

True, but what I mean to say is that even prior to Chagol's existence, I assume Kai must have had a phoenix flag… but the reason or history/mythology behind it was not explained.

It sufficed as a comparison. Chagol seems to be a relative of the Kai Emperor.

Many feared him and wanted him dead. He even said he could trust no one near the end of his life. I assumed there would be more explanations to his obsession with the North Kai emperor's blood.

Indeed, but his followers believed in him as strong leader. He made quite the spectacle around his person. And this with good reason. His strength was the reason they followed him; but they also feared him due to his horrifying measures.

Good point, but I also don't think they had an "inability" to change things. That's the main difference. They are gods. Su-Won does not believe in godly power, but the series makes it clear that it exists, and even Su-Won hides its evidence. They chose to ruin people's lives.

They chose to ruin people´s life, exactly BECAUSE they were unable to protect Hiryuu on this world without human hosts. And the dragon gods do not care for the human beings.

But even if they do care, like it was the case with the yellow dragon god, they cannot literally interfer or are forbidden to interfer. Would it be absolutely impossible for them to heal people? Well, their blood resurrected people, so I guess they could work "wonders" in a certain way, if they were not forbidden from interfering in the first place. And they also could cause earthquakes and let the sun vanish from the sky, when they broke their contracts...So yes, they did have an effect on this world.

Soo Won was proven wrong in that aspect, that mad gods can at least cause misery, even if they cannot better the life of human beings. And Zeno understood that the belief in them was hardly senseful.

However, he was undoubtly proven right, that the gods did just watch human misery.

Yes, but WHY do they love him to such an obsessive level? What's the backstory? Why did he even decide to leave them to become human? Why didn't they just go down and become human themselves when he had done it? It's not explained.

I think, you have to take it, that the curtains are blue, because they are blue. The dragon gods loved him, because they loved him.

Yeah, I also think, it would have been nice, if we had seen the reason, why he even came down. Did he fell in love with a human being? Why did he come down and caused so much problems?

He wished to save the human beings, it is said.

Because human beings are weak beings, who die soon. I think, the image to become like this, was not exactly to their liking. Better use human beings and make super strong warriors that cannot betray Hiryuu, manipulating their feelings.

They made a prophecy for some reason and forgot all about it too.

Well, they could foresee that the pain of loneliness drives them mad.

Personally, this sounds relatively convincing. The dragon gods were like toddlers that had suffered for the first time. For small children that do not know pain, it is the worst that could happen to them.

It was already written in their prophecy that Hak and Su-Won were the shield and sword.

It was apparently a vow. So like a contract with Hiryuu, a binding promise. So the prophecy did not have to happen, actually.

The dragon gods did even risk to cease to exist in their pain. And they did attack Soo Won and Hak. That these being have kept their promise was therefore not the natural course of action, if you consider they were nearly completely mad.

I don't think they had the inability to remove the suffering at all, they chose not to help. They treated human beings like flies, and I do think they needed to be held accountable.

I think you could hardly hold them accountable. They were really powerful.

Do you mean the one of the dragon warriors? Surely they could have removed it. But the ones of the human beings in general? It appears they were forbidden from interfering with humans greatly. Hiryuu went down to Earth against the wishes of the heavens. So there might be even higher gods than the dragon gods.

I don't think the message that people should not rely on gods but themselves is inherently a bad message, but Hiryuu's backstory and reasons for coming down to Earth was not even explained.

Yes, Yu-Hon's early death definitely contributed to Su-Won's romanticization, but it goes beyond absence. Oscar's father was beating, throwing her down the stairs, even attempted to murder her.

As far as we know, Yu-Hon was not a physically abusive father. Mentally abusive? Yes, by telling him to treat his closest people as chess pieces (hypocritical, Yu-Hon himself could not treat Il and Yon-hi this way) ... but Su-Won did not realize that for a long time.

And yet despite that abuse, at 14 Oscar still separated her choice to commit to service from her father's wishes entirely. She knew her agency was best explored presenting as a man (she enjoyed the privileges) during that time period, otherwise she would lose many freedoms.

Oscar never blindly followed anyone. She was always uneasy of Marie Antoinette despite being fond of her (unlike Hak, who romanticized his lieges, notably Il). Seeds of her future betrayal of the queen/her father are visible even in her younger years.

Her moral code was never her father's either. She became very angry when she first sees his lack of urgency towards suffering commoners, decades before the revolution and her defection.

Su-Won was not like this. For a long time he was too defensive of his father's morally questionable actions towards Xing, and attempted to adhere to Yu-Hon's morals and vision out of love. Even now, he hasn't been shown to be vehemently critical of him. A quiet murmur that "he was wrong" is not like Oscar. Lili is more like Oscar in this regard than Su-Won is.

In fact I don't think Su-Won once thought growing up that his father's influence was damaging to his relationships and mental health, not until Yona questions him. There is no sign of any attempt to assert his own agency, until the war against Kai... but even that is framed as a realization that he cannot listen to Yu-Hon, rather than something he actively chose or planned like Oscar. Even Yon-Hi's diary did nothing.

Overall I do think Su-Won and Oscar do share similarities here and there but there remain glaring differences in personality and circumstance. Like you said, some of it is due to Yu-Hon's death, but I don't think that is all.

Even if Su-Won and Oscar share similarities in "breaking free from their father's influence", I think the Rose of Versailles executed this better.

I remember that she took revenge for a boy, a noble had just killed without a great reason.

Yes, she gets very angry at the corrupt noble for killing a child, but it's the duke who challenges her to a duel to the death. Even then she decides that she cannot take his life no matter how much she hates him or he threatens the reputation of the government because it goes against her ethics.

In the end, she incapacitates his hand so he cannot kill more children. She does not kill him, even when given the chance. In the manga, the duel never happens.

Meinyan is a mix between Yona, but also Soo Won. She also followed in her father´s footsteps searching for the dragon warriors

True. I wish we had known more about Mei's backstory, since she had a father and brother who had the crimson illness in the Kai Empire (...why? never explained). Far more interesting than her dumb love triangle.

But even if they do care, like it was the case with the yellow dragon god, they cannot literally interfer or are forbidden to interfer. they could work "wonders" in a certain way, if they were not forbidden from interfering in the first place. And they also could cause earthquakes and let the sun vanish from the sky, when they broke their contracts...So yes, they did have an effect on this world.

Wasn't the only contract that they could not injure or attempt to kill Hiryuu? I don't remember them ever being forbidden to come into the physical world at all, they even did a few times.

I think, you have to take it, that the curtains are blue, because they are blue. The dragon gods loved him, because they loved him.

That explanation is too shallow, personally.

Yeah, I also think, it would have been nice, if we had seen the reason, why he even came down. Did he fell in love with a human being? Why did he come down and caused so much problems? He wished to save the human beings, it is said.

Yes. I also think it would have been far more interesting if Hiryuu had been fleshed out as someone who wanted to save human beings but couldn't fully understand them. Something like a selfish affection or savior complex. It would explain why he caused trouble.

What's frustrating is that I really did think too, that the story was building towards an explanation for it all, seeing how Su-Won too told Hak, with his face hidden:

It really felt like the narrative was building towards something, especially considering Kusanagi used to be better at foreshadowing.

So the prophecy did not have to happen, actually.

Exactly.

Hiryuu went down to Earth against the wishes of the heavens. So there might be even higher gods than the dragon gods.

See, but that wasn't explained in the story. This is hypothetical. Translations too can be quite weird. The kanji 天 (heaven/god) is what Su-Won uses to explain that he is not interested in what "only watches".

But does this not even prove my point? Oscar experienced, when she was even pretty young, but still old enough, that she had little agency in this matter; the abuse of her father demonstrated this clearly. She experienced that it was a "must" and this surely contributed to her development. She was not given the choice at the beginning at all.

She was her father´s heir, and if he must beat her.

So she could directly compare.

In contrast Soo Won lost his father at age 9. When he was even younger than Oscar and he had barely seen his father. That Soo Won still became so kind, when it was drilled into his head at age 3-4 years, that he should treat even his friends like figures/objects or else Soo Won would be responsible for countless deaths is amazing in itself.

Oscar was given a chance to reflect and understand. Soo Won merely had the opinions of his followers, his own scarce memory and the written content.

He had hardly had the chance.

Besides Soo Won did not follow blindly, by the way. He had wished for time to analyze the situation even as a child, before he made his "judgement" 10 years later.

And when he reflected the situation, King Il unfortunately demonstrated, that his rule had horrifying effects.

Therefore Soo Won had to reflect some more, when new information arrived.

Did he struggle, because of his loss? The death of both his parents?

Yes, he did. He did not wish to see it in Xing, and he still needed until the Castle Arc until he was able to break away from the worst in the mausoleum.

Soo Won needed for this less than a year; but given the circumstances for the French Revolution were not there at the beginning of the story.

Oscar never blindly followed anyone. She was always uneasy of Marie Antoinette despite being fond of her (unlike Hak, who romanticized his lieges, notably Il). Seeds of her future betrayal of the queen/her father are visible even in her younger years.

Oscar needed years for her betrayal, Soo Won realized in less than a year, that he was wrong. He surely is much, but has never been an absolute blind follower. Not even in his greatest pain.

In fact I don't think Su-Won once thought growing up that his father's influence was damaging to his relationships and mental health, not until Yona questions him.

No, Soo Won does not care so greatly for himself. He perceives himself - like Zeno - as somebody that chan be replaced.

Soo Won, however, realized earlier that his father was not a great king. Or Yona´s little attack would have not worked. In Xing. He merely surpressed the knowledge.

I think, you have to take it, that the curtains are blue, because they are blue. The dragon gods loved him, because they loved him. That explanation is too shallow, personally.

Alright. Alright. They are like the dragon warriors, if that helps a little - comrades. Zeno made the connection.

They are brothers, the only ones, who are like each other. Human beings are flies, but the dragon gods are "people" in the dragon gods eyes.

Basically, the dragon gods feel like human beings. The only precious people are the ones that are like them. So for them only 4 other "people"/beings exist. Therefore only these 5 people are precious. Hiryuu was one of them. The rest are flies.

One of the most important sentences in that work is: "People are mirrors", that was mentioned by Zeno. Indeed. People are mirrors and so are the gods.

It was often implied, that the dragon gods could relate to human beings, but they chose not to, since they objectify human beings.

The dragon gods literally understand Zeno´s pain, his loneliness, but they do not relate to him, because he is "far beneath them".

Wasn't the only contract that they could not injure or attempt to kill Hiryuu? I don't remember them ever being forbidden to come into the physical world at all, they even did a few times.

When Yona asked them to live with her, they answered, that this was impossible.

If you consider that they used human beings as vessels, then it is a logical conclusion, that not only the yellow dragon god was unable to interfer with human life. When they still broke this taboo, they ceased to exist.

Even when they hurt Soo Won in the real world, the blue dragon used Shin ha to perform this trick.

So it appears that the Heavens forbid them from interfering generally. Hiryuu might have given up his godhood, but the dragon gods did not wish to do it. (Zeno again and again tells us, that Hiryuu had gone against the heavens).

It seems, this was the price for being able to interfer with the human world. They could, but they had to become human beings. But this would have meant to go against the Heavens. And they did not wish to stray from this path. They merely had this wish, when it was far too late.

A reflection of Zeno, who had not visited the other dragon warriors in the outside world until it was far too late.

What's frustrating is that I really did think too, that the story was building towards an explanation for it all, seeing how Su-Won too told Hak, with his face hidden:

It is interesting that you use this panel. Soo Won had tried to love everybody equally, but he couldn´t. A way for him to deflect his pain and Hak constructed an illusion out of it.

This is pretty much, what the Xing Arc tried to demonstrate. Soo Won did not wish to stray from his path because of one person.

He loved Yona, but he wished to be a good king. His father had burnt the priests unjustly for his mother.

Soo Won forced himself against his better feelings in order to be a good king. But he became less than a human being as an effect.

Zeno noticed that Soo Won became "a little more human-like" when he was around Hak.

Su-Won too did not have agency. "Throw away your friends or the country will die" is moral blackmail, a "must"... just like Oscar, Su-Won was taught a moral belief for something bigger than himself. Unlike Oscar, he internalized and never questioned it for most of his life.

As for Oscar, her conditioning also gave her little agency, yes. Her father built her entire career and (even gender) identity around military service. All imposed from birth, against her will.

The nature of the conditioning does differ in one way. Su-Won was brainwashed to think he was morally and personally responsible for national suffering, so he had more of a savior complex. Oscar's conditioning is more institutional. She had to uphold the family name, military hierarchy, as the "male" heir.

Yet, Oscar too, developed her own savior complex, one that no one asked of her. Her father never wanted her to develop political conscience, but for many years, she had put a huge pressure on herself for seeing problems and boosting the queen's political development. Nobility of higher status resented her, "a mere guard", for it.

Again, she was far more concerned about France's fate than Marie Antoinette herself (or her father), and far more troubled with her liege's failures as a ruler than Hak ever was towards Il. Hak was fundamentally complacent and devoted to the man. Oscar? She was sobbing in despair at Marie Antoinette's choices and feeling personally responsible. That moral anguish eventually drove her to betray the queen. It wasn't conditioned.

But in any case, it seems the point we debate on is specifically whether the absence or presence of the object of conditioning makes it harder or easier for a character to break free from.

Oscar was given a chance to reflect and understand. Soo Won merely had the opinions of his followers, his own scarce memory and the written content.

Being abused by her father in real time does not make her resistance easier imo. Yes, Oscar recognized that she had no agency because her father beat her. But physical abuse could have easily made her more likely to comply, out of fear or rationalization. Many abused people can see the abuse clearly and still not act against it (Su-Won for a long time rationalized his father). She could have easily rationalized it as him being strict, blamed herself, believed in filial piety, that sacrifices had to be made for the monarchy. But Oscar never did. Her resistance came from an internal moral code, not circumstance.

As for Su-Won, there was no Yu-Hon to punish or restrain him. He had Yu-Hon's dogmatic loyalists around him, yes... but as shown he was much smarter and level-headed than them, he had more chances to reflect.

The closest counterbalance to this is Judo, who admonishes him on one occasion for losing his composure, and repeats Yu-Hon's rhetoric... and while Su-Won's body resists on instinct, his mind did not reject the conditioning, not until many arcs later.

Besides Soo Won did not follow blindly, by the way. He had wished for time to analyze the situation even as a child, before he made his "judgement" 10 years later. Soo Won realized in less than a year, that he was wrong. He surely is much, but has never been an absolute blind follower. Not even in his greatest pain.

Certainly, he is not an absolute blind follower. But I also think Su-Won's realization happened more quickly because the narrative itself moves unrealistically fast. Yona became a major political actor in less than a year, which created the condition for him realize there was evidence contradicting his father. But in a more realistic political story like the Rose of Versailles, that process could take several years. (Su-Won too, held onto a specific view for around 10 years). So I don't think his realization proves greater self-awareness than Oscar's.

Soo Won, however, realized earlier that his father was not a great king. Or Yona´s little attack would have not worked. In Xing. He merely surpressed the knowledge.

That's an interesting theory.

When Yona asked them to live with her, they answered, that this was impossible. Even when they hurt Soo Won in the real world, the blue dragon used Shin ha to perform this trick.

Living in the physical realm forever is not the same as simply passing through it, which they did multiple times. But your theory does have some legitimacy, yes.

His father had burnt the priests unjustly for his mother.

Yes, I really wish we'd gotten Su-Won's full thoughts on his father killing the priests in the actual story.

So I wonder, if this was not King Hiryuu´s problem. Since he "loved human beings"...

Most of his life means in Soo Won´s case being 18 years old and he did obviously reflect upon it, or Yona would be literally not be queen.

Lady Oscar breaks away when she is over 30 years old. So yes, I would say, she had a little more time to reflect than Soo Won.

The nature of the conditioning does differ in one way. Su-Won was brainwashed to think he was morally and personally responsible for national suffering, so he had more of a savior complex. Oscar's conditioning is more institutional. She had to uphold the family name, military hierarchy, as the "male" heir. Yet, Oscar too, developed her own savior complex, one that no one asked of her. Her father never wanted her to develop political conscience, but for many years, she had put a huge pressure on herself for seeing problems and boosting the queen's political development. Nobility of higher status resented her, "a mere guard", for it.

Oscar worried for Marie Antoinette. For a good reason. As a foreigner and partly naive person - at least at the beginning - she was truly in great danger. And then of course with the growing unrest.

Again, she was far more concerned about France's fate than Marie Antoinette herself (or her father), and far more troubled with her liege's failures as a ruler than Hak ever was towards Il. Hak was fundamentally complacent and devoted to the man. Oscar? She was sobbing in despair at Marie Antoinette's choices and feeling personally responsible. That moral anguish eventually drove her to betray the queen. It wasn't conditioned.

Oh well, Hak is a true dreamer, while Oscar usally did not close her eyes. But well, the Wind Tribe did manage alright because of Mundoek most of the time. He is a capable man. Hak could basically stay away without greater damage.

Being abused by her father in real time does not make her resistance easier imo. Yes, Oscar recognized that she had no agency because her father beat her. But physical abuse could have easily made her more likely to comply, out of fear or rationalization. Many abused people can see the abuse clearly and still not act against it (Su-Won for a long time rationalized his father). She could have easily rationalized it as him being strict, blamed herself, believed in filial piety, that sacrifices had to be made for the monarchy. But Oscar never did. Her resistance came from an internal moral code, not circumstance.

I think, it is clear, that Oscar acquired enough experiences about the situation with her father to not fall so easily into the trap of any kind of illusions. Soo Won merely has memories from 10 years ago, who have been - of course - shaped by the fact that his father died soon.

Physical abuse should one make more easy to comply? It depends. It depends heavily what kind of person you are and what kind of relationship you had with your parent.

Besides you can more easily see love in the version without the physical abuse. Children wish to please their parents in order to be loved. If it is pretty clear that there is less love, than it is easier to break away.

Morality is always influenced by circumstances. The bitter circumstances of the people she met drove her to do it.

As for Su-Won, there was no Yu-Hon to punish or restrain him. He had Yu-Hon's dogmatic loyalists around him, yes… but as shown he was much smarter and level-headed than them, he had more chances to reflect.

How can you reflect better with less information? And less opportunity to literally reflect, because his father is - obviously - less around even before he died? That does not sound very persuasive

And the biggest joke is that he did adapt to the situation even far quicker than Oscar, as he was 18 years old, when he broke away, while she was about 35 years old?

Certainly, he is not an absolute blind follower. But I also think Su-Won's realization happened more quickly because the narrative itself moves unrealistically fast. Yona became a major political actor in less than a year, which created the condition for him realize there was evidence contradicting his father. But in a more realistic political story like the Rose of Versailles, that process could take several years. (Su-Won too, held onto a specific view for around 10 years). So I don't think his realization proves greater self-awareness than Oscar's.

Soo Won had always had the chance to follow blindly. However, he was always a person that tended to be curious and ask question. From birth so to speak, if we speak about inherent features.

It surely was absolutely demoralising to admit, that he was wrong. A huge thing, for an 18 year old.

Lili literally saw what state Soo-won was in when she ignored him bleeding out on the floor in Yona’s favor, he was literally two steps away. Unless she’s secretly blind like her father I don’t think she missed that.

So you’re telling me after seeing him like that she didn’t worry, didn’t stay to check on him or anything and just left home, and then when Joon-gi tells her he gave up the throne she’s suddenly all worried and legit asking “is he in bad health?”. I’m sorry what?

In this case really in the literal sense. Lily, like everybody else, thinks Soo Won can take it. Whatever it is. Hak thought that Soo Won can win against the gods. Mei Nyan also thinks, that he somehow manages.

Or it is a mistake of the mangaka? Maybe it would be corrected in a later version. I have seen more panels in the manga itself than in the first version.

Lili literally saw what state Soo-won was in when she ignored him bleeding out on the floor in Yona’s favor, he was literally two steps away. Unless she’s secretly blind like her father I don’t think she missed that.

So you’re telling me after seeing him like that she didn’t worry, didn’t stay to check on him or anything and just left home, and then when Joon-gi tells her he gave up the throne she’s suddenly all worried and legit asking “is he in bad health?”. I’m sorry what?

In this case really in the literal sense. Lily, like everybody else, thinks Soo Won can take it. Whatever it is. Hak thought that Soo Won can win against the gods. Mei Nyan also thinks, that he somehow manages.

Zeno looked like a mess, too.

Lili literally saw what state Soo-won was in when she ignored him bleeding out on the floor in Yona’s favor, he was literally two steps away. Unless she’s secretly blind like her father I don’t think she missed that.

So you’re telling me after seeing him like that she didn’t worry, didn’t stay to check on him or anything and just left home, and then when Joon-gi tells her he gave up the throne she’s suddenly all worried and legit asking “is he in bad health?”. I’m sorry what?

In this case really in the literal sense. Lily, like everybody else, thinks Soo Won can take it. Whatever it is. Hak thought that Soo Won can win against the gods. Mei Nyan also thinks, that he somehow manages.

Or it is a mistake of the mangaka? Maybe it would be corrected in a later version. I have seen more panels in the manga itself than in the first version.

Lili literally saw what state Soo-won was in when she ignored him bleeding out on the floor in Yona’s favor, he was literally two steps away. Unless she’s secretly blind like her father I don’t think she missed that.

So you’re telling me after seeing him like that she didn’t worry, didn’t stay to check on him or anything and just left home, and then when Joon-gi tells her he gave up the throne she’s suddenly all worried and legit asking “is he in bad health?”. I’m sorry what?

In this case really in the literal sense. Lily, like everybody else, thinks Soo Won can take it. Whatever it is. Hak thought that Soo Won can win against the gods. Mei Nyan also thinks, that he somehow manages.

Lili literally saw what state Soo-won was in when she ignored him bleeding out on the floor in Yona’s favor, he was literally two steps away. Unless she’s secretly blind like her father I don’t think she missed that.

So you’re telling me after seeing him like that she didn’t worry, didn’t stay to check on him or anything and just left home, and then when Joon-gi tells her he gave up the throne she’s suddenly all worried and legit asking “is he in bad health?”. I’m sorry what?

In this case really in the literal sense. Lily, like everybody else, thinks Soo Won can take it. Whatever it is. Hak thought that Soo Won can win against the gods. Mei Nyan also thinks, that he somehow manages.

If he should find community, then the disability is not that grave in comparison. Soo Won wished for friends, a family and community since he was very little.

People tend to be able to live with a disability like this. And he also did not appear to mind it.

He’s 18 goddammit and he’ll never be able to do certain things on his own anymore. Did he really deserve such a horrible end?

My grand-mother had polio, when she was merely 2 years old and was left a "cripple" from it. She could hardly move one leg (it had also not grown like the other leg) and had to drag it behind. She could still live her life relatively well. She had friends, a family, worked,

Another woman was born with only one arm due to her mother using Contergan. She even worked as a nurse, had a daughter, divorced, married again, moved to America and is living her life to the fullest.

I think he wouldn’t mind even if the arm was chopped off at all, or if he lost both. That’s the kind of person he is, he didn’t expect to live at all and he’s guilt-ridden, so for him it seems enough. “My head is working just fine” he said. He must think he deserved it too.

Personally I do think that the isolation and loss of relationships are the more pressing matter in Soo Won´s case. The guy appaers to be truly lost.

Absolutely he does

My grand-mother had polio, when she was merely 2 years old and was left a "cripple" from it.

Im very sorry to hear that🙏🏻

Im not saying Soo-won’s life is now going to be horrible because he can’t use that arm, surely he first needs emotional stabilization and to find “his” people, friends, attachments, so on. Plus, Soo-won is Soo-won, he’ll manage.

But I feel bad he’ll never be able to do certain things again. No archery practice for him anymore. No multitasking. Will he be able to ride a horse? Or train again?Everything will be slightly more difficult to do now. I’m unsure why the author chose that for him.

Maybe this will remind people that Soo Won, too, is only a human being that cannot work wonders.

Hak is also a human but he is a walking wonder for some reason. Has been hurt way more frequently and way more seriously than Soo-won but there he goes, all intact. Soo-won was hurt once and that’s it, no arm. Fair.

Unfortunately, you are right. He could have lost both arms and would hold the book with his teeth, still smiling, telling everybody he is alright.

I think, I understand your point now better.

Im not saying Soo-won’s life is now going to be horrible because he can’t use that arm, surely he first needs emotional stabilization and to find “his” people, friends, attachments, so on. Plus, Soo-won is Soo-won, he’ll manage.

Yes, I am sorry. I misunderstood.

No, I think. There might come a point, where even Soo Won won´t manage anymore. He is showing the signs pretty clearly, at least in my eyes. Soo Won won´t manage alone anymore. He has never, actually. He has always searched for friends. His whole childhood he has run away to search for other people.

But I feel bad he’ll never be able to do certain things again. No archery practice for him anymore. No multitasking. Will he be able to ride a horse? Or train again?Everything will be slightly more difficult to do now. I’m unsure why the author chose that for him.

Ah, yes, you are right. Soo Won liked to draw the bow, the same way Yona did.

Riding is alright - I have ridden horses for over 7 years in my childhood. You ride a horse with your balance, your weight and both legs. In fact, one of the first few practices you have to pass is not to hold onto the reigns. They are merely for showing the horse the directions in the English version.

And in Western you merely use your legs and weight. The horse is running on very long reigns. Soo Won has ridden since he can most likely walk. Usually you hold also a weapon in your hand, when you attack with the horse. if the guys and girls needed both hands for riding, this would be impossible.

This guy knows how to ride even without one arm.

Because Soo Won needs help. And it should be more obvious. Soo Won has this mentality. I wonder, if this wound was really this grave or if Soo Won is merely pretending he cannot move the arm anymore, like at all. I honestly don´t know. He would perceive it as a punishment.

Like you said, it makes no sense to not heal him completely. Or why the wound should not at least heal. Or the gods are really like this? It is hard to say...but like you said. It is so strange, that merely Soo Won is not forgiven. Zeno was - physically- fine, too.

Hak is also a human but he is a walking wonder for some reason. Has been hurt way more frequently and way more seriously than Soo-won but there he goes, all intact. Soo-won was hurt once and that’s it, no arm. Fair.

Well, to be fair. Yona searched for the dragon warriors in order for Hak not to die...^^

And Hak has always Yona. Hak, who is as selfless as Soo Won, has somebody and even more people, who protect him.

But who protects Soo Won?

I think the author had that in mind since the beginning though since she mentioned Hak being Soo-won’s “right arm”. I guess it’s going to play out again if they talk. I don’t approve that to be the cost though.

No worries, I should’ve described it clearer.

By “manage” this time I meant purely functionally too. Emotionally you’re completely right, he won’t manage alone, not anymore, this is why I wanted the gaiden to show he’s not alone but for now he very much is :(

Ah, yes, you are right. Soo Won liked to draw the bow, the same way Yona did.

Yes💔 He seemed to like it and was very good at it, saved Lili when it was almost impossible. Now he’ll never do it again.

Riding is alright - I have ridden horses for over 7 years in my childhood. You ride a horse with your balance, your weight and both legs. In fact, one of the first few practices you have to pass is not to hold onto the reigns. They are merely for showing the horse the directions in the English version.

Thank god. Thank you🙏🏻

Like you said, it makes no sense to not heal him completely. Or why the wound should not at least heal. Or the gods are really like this? It is hard to say...but like you said. It is so strange, that merely Soo Won is not forgiven. Zeno was - physically- fine, too.

Yep, they could redo the dragon warriors’ body parts from dragon to human ones but couldn’t heal a cut Soo-won got? I’m still confused why can’t he use it anymore, he was using it just fine in the mausoleum, all the other cuts he got the gods cured. Zeno whom they hated the most is perfectly fine, I don’t think the gods hated anyone more than Zeno. So why?☹️

Well, to be fair. Yona searched for the dragon warriors in order for Hak not to die...^^

I of course didn’t mean he should’ve died, I don’t want that either. But Hak is human just like Soo-won. Soo-won got cut, he can’t use his arm, Geun-tae got hit by arrows, can’t fight anymore, Keishuk once got injured, can’t fight anymore. Hak got slashed, kicked around and cut open more times than I can count but he has no consequences on his body. Yes he’s super strong but he’s not a dragon warrior or immortal like Zeno, his body has limits. Would only be realistic if he also became limited in some way since the author for some reason did it to Soo-won.

Why is Hak “the shield” invincible while Soo-won “the sword” got wrecked from one blow? How’s that fair. I’d rather neither was hurt at all.

He could have lost both arms and would hold the book with his teeth, still smiling, telling everybody he is alright.

If he should find community, then the disability is not that grave in comparison. Soo Won wished for friends, a family and community since he was very little.

People tend to be able to live with a disability like this. And he also did not appear to mind it.

He’s 18 goddammit and he’ll never be able to do certain things on his own anymore. Did he really deserve such a horrible end?

My grand-mother had polio, when she was merely 2 years old and was left a "cripple" from it. She could hardly move one leg (it had also not grown like the other leg) and had to drag it behind. She could still live her life relatively well. She had friends, a family, worked,

Another woman was born with only one arm due to her mother using Contergan. She even worked as a nurse, had a daughter, divorced, married again, moved to America and is living her life to the fullest.

I think he wouldn’t mind even if the arm was chopped off at all, or if he lost both. That’s the kind of person he is, he didn’t expect to live at all and he’s guilt-ridden, so for him it seems enough. “My head is working just fine” he said. He must think he deserved it too.

Personally I do think that the isolation and loss of relationships are the more pressing matter in Soo Won´s case. The guy appaers to be truly lost.

Absolutely he does

My grand-mother had polio, when she was merely 2 years old and was left a "cripple" from it.

Im very sorry to hear that🙏🏻

Im not saying Soo-won’s life is now going to be horrible because he can’t use that arm, surely he first needs emotional stabilization and to find “his” people, friends, attachments, so on. Plus, Soo-won is Soo-won, he’ll manage.

But I feel bad he’ll never be able to do certain things again. No archery practice for him anymore. No multitasking. Will he be able to ride a horse? Or train again?Everything will be slightly more difficult to do now. I’m unsure why the author chose that for him.

Maybe this will remind people that Soo Won, too, is only a human being that cannot work wonders.

Hak is also a human but he is a walking wonder for some reason. Has been hurt way more frequently and way more seriously than Soo-won but there he goes, all intact. Soo-won was hurt once and that’s it, no arm. Fair.

Unfortunately, you are right. He could have lost both arms and would hold the book with his teeth, still smiling, telling everybody he is alright.

I think, I understand your point now better.

Im not saying Soo-won’s life is now going to be horrible because he can’t use that arm, surely he first needs emotional stabilization and to find “his” people, friends, attachments, so on. Plus, Soo-won is Soo-won, he’ll manage.

Yes, I am sorry. I misunderstood.

No, I think. There might come a point, where even Soo Won won´t manage anymore. He is showing the signs pretty clearly, at least in my eyes. Soo Won won´t manage alone anymore. He has never, actually. He has always searched for friends. His whole childhood he has run away to search for other people.

But I feel bad he’ll never be able to do certain things again. No archery practice for him anymore. No multitasking. Will he be able to ride a horse? Or train again?Everything will be slightly more difficult to do now. I’m unsure why the author chose that for him.

Ah, yes, you are right. Soo Won liked to draw the bow, the same way Yona did.

Riding is alright - I have ridden horses for over 7 years in my childhood. You ride a horse with your balance, your weight and both legs. In fact, one of the first few practices you have to pass is not to hold onto the reigns. They are merely for showing the horse the directions in the English version.

And in Western you merely use your legs and weight. The horse is running on very long reigns. Soo Won has ridden since he can most likely walk. Usually you hold also a weapon in your hand, when you attack with the horse. if the guys and girls needed both hands for riding, this would be impossible.

This guy knows how to ride even without one arm.

Because Soo Won needs help. And it should be more obvious. Soo Won has this mentality. I wonder, if this wound was really this grave or if Soo Won is merely pretending he cannot move the arm anymore, like at all. I honestly don´t know. He would perceive it as a punishment.

Like you said, it makes no sense to not heal him completely. Or why the wound should not at least heal. Or the gods are really like this? It is hard to say...but like you said. It is so strange, that merely Soo Won is not forgiven. Zeno was - physically- fine, too.

Hak is also a human but he is a walking wonder for some reason. Has been hurt way more frequently and way more seriously than Soo-won but there he goes, all intact. Soo-won was hurt once and that’s it, no arm. Fair.

Well, to be fair. Yona searched for the dragon warriors in order for Hak not to die...^^

And Hak has always Yona. Hak, who is as selfless as Soo Won, has somebody and even more people, who protect him.

But who protects Soo Won?

I think the author had that in mind since the beginning though since she mentioned Hak being Soo-won’s “right arm”. I guess it’s going to play out again if they talk. I don’t approve that to be the cost though.

If he should find community, then the disability is not that grave in comparison. Soo Won wished for friends, a family and community since he was very little.

People tend to be able to live with a disability like this. And he also did not appear to mind it.

He’s 18 goddammit and he’ll never be able to do certain things on his own anymore. Did he really deserve such a horrible end?

My grand-mother had polio, when she was merely 2 years old and was left a "cripple" from it. She could hardly move one leg (it had also not grown like the other leg) and had to drag it behind. She could still live her life relatively well. She had friends, a family, worked,

Another woman was born with only one arm due to her mother using Contergan. She even worked as a nurse, had a daughter, divorced, married again, moved to America and is living her life to the fullest.

Well, hey, I know they were friends, and I do like their comedic interactions. But damn Hak really called Jae-ha his best friend.

"My dear Hak"... the gay or bisexual energy is high here LMAO.

Poor Soo Won. Maybe Lily really becomes his friend. But Jae ha has clear analogies with Soo Won. Hak has a type.

But I was truly happy for all the former "dragon warriors". The younger generation appears to enjoy their lives.

Not to mention, it's been just 2 months since her ascension. Is this really the time for a wedding? It seems like our main characters have more pressing matters.

It is impossible to resolve the plot points. A wedding would be just such a waste. 30 pages are nothing. I tried even to find pages in the last chapter and counted the pages, since I could not believe that this was all.

I actually mournt that we will never see Nene in action. Honestly I would have prefered to have never seen her. Why was it even mentioned that Jon Gi and her had difficulties? It has 0 to do with the whole plot.

She must be an amazing person traveling on her own in Kouka, being completely indepandant from her estranged husband.

Cameos of every character would mean we would see basically next to nothing. It would mean no real plot...

Not to mention, it's been just 2 months since her ascension. Is this really the time for a wedding? It seems like our main characters have more pressing matters.

Maybe there will be a time skip next chapter. To the point in time, when Yona has the long flowing hair. I would say she would be around Soo Won´ and Hak´s age then. 2 months after Soo Won´s ascension there had also happened next to nothing...

It would be the best course of action as further developments would have happened. But even then it is next to impossible to bring up the previous plot points.

So we can say goodbye to the hairpin, the past (We have to accept Yona´s naive version). We can merely guess, why Kashi ran away.

Hopefully at least Zeno has found a purpose in life then. Him and Soo Won were not alright at all.

But hey, we'll see. Maybe we'll see a timeskip next chapter set in 10 years of that wedding halfway through the chapter too. Who knows.