Hello!

They're not villains*, but that's how I feel towards Sesshōmaru and Kikyō. I mean, paradoxically, to have an honest conversation about them you need to talk with their haters. And this is particularly true with Kikyō.

Additionally - Sesshomaru killed a lot of people for merely being in the way - without thought, just because he was slightly annoyed about their presence.

Kikyo on the other hand was screwed over the most of all people in Inuyasha. She is literally dead. Naraku killed her...in a very disgusting way. He made her believe, that a person she loved had betrayed her.

She is forcefully brought back to life. And has to face Kagome of all people. A fully healthy young woman who "owns" her soul.

Of course, she is bitter, how could she not? She has every reason to hate them, Inuyasha, but above else Kagome. It is human nature. Still, she is one of the most interesting female characters - exactly because she felt all this hate, the wish for revenge, yet learns to let go. Of her hate. Her jealousy towards Kagome.

She loved Inuyasha, just like Kagome does. And she decided for caring for others again. She had tasted all this bile, yet decided for Kohaku´s life instead of revenge.

And, look, I completely understand why. Because it is true, Sesshōmaru and Kikyō are different. Because Sesshōmaru just doesn't care, because he doesn't even think that he should care. Because he is cruel. So, yes, of course it's easier to name his sins.

Kikyō is another thing. Even when she's at her lowest, you can't help but sympathize with her. That's fair. In fact, that's good, that means you have compassion. And "compassion" is the key word in Inuyasha, compassion is not, is NEVER "merely compassion" (I can't even count how many times I had to emphasize this essential concept that people tend to neglect).

Though, I promise, it is absolutely possible to feel compassion for her, like her and recognize the evil she committed. My original post was meant for those "fans" who only see in her the angel, the martyr, the victim. She is all these things but if you only see her as this perfect being then you are not respecting her complexity. If you refuse to see that she's also a victimizer, a manipulator and (ugh, I know, I know, this is VERY disagreeable to hear, it is so for me too) not as selfless as one could think, if you only see the light and forget about the dark... You're erasing that complexity in her.

(That being said I also came to realize that her redemption arc was less satisfying, consistent and well done than Sesshōmaru's, but nevertheless I think she's iconic).

If canon is an apology than I cannot help you, honestly. I merely present facts. The main characters in the manga did consider the Kikyo before and after as completely different. They mournt her death and recognized, what she has done for them.

And, look, I completely understand why. Because it is true, Sesshōmaru and Kikyō are different. Because Sesshōmaru just doesn't care, because he doesn't even think that he should care. Because he is cruel. So, yes, of course it's easier to name his sins.

Sin? Who are you? A Christian? I am not talking about belief, but about the canon fact, that Sesshomarou does not really greatly care about human beings, safe for a few exceptions.

Kikyo cares. This...is just fact. This is part of her wonderful journey. I am talking about her development. I am talking about the fact, that Takahashi has invented a female character that was allowed to be full of hate at the beginning for a realistic and obvious reason and then to change and develop in the process of her journey. Kikyo was not demonized. And I guess, some fans have a big problem with a female character with such truly interesting development.

This is fiction, after all.

Kikyō is another thing. Even when she's at her lowest, you can't help but sympathize with her. That's fair. In fact, that's good, that means you have compassion. And "compassion" is the key word in Inuyasha, compassion is not, is NEVER "merely compassion" (I can't even count how many times I had to emphasize this essential concept that people tend to neglect).

Yes, I know, since I have known this work for over twenty years. And I have read it a couple of times, actually.

Though, I promise, it is absolutely possible to feel compassion for her, like her and recognize the evil she committed.

Oh, I recognize it, that she hurt people and killed people, like so many characters in the show. Strangely so many people have a problem with Kikyo because of it. Haters just completely do not get it, that you can love a character without having to change anything about said character. Her reaction had a very obvious reason, after all. She was so heavily screwed over and lost the most of all characters; therefore it is very understandable, that she hated the whole world.

Yes, she killed people, but so what? Doesn´t change anything about my love for her. I am also a big fan of Naraku and this character is really shitty and cruel. Even though I would at least mention, that he did not have the benefit of parents or any person that had ever cared for him.

I also liked Sesshomarou in the past.

My original post was meant for those "fans" who only see in her the angel, the martyr, the victim. She is all these things but if you only see her as this perfect being then you are not respecting her complexity.

Then you can just leave these people alone. I doubt, that you can persuade them in that way, honestly.

On the other hand, how do you know, that they deny it? Maybe it is just not that important to them, that she killed people. I mean how many people, even main characters kill people in Inuyasha?

(That being said I also came to realize that her redemption arc was less satisfying, consistent and well done than Sesshōmaru's, but nevertheless I think she's iconic).

On the contrary it was really good. She had a little less screen time and I would have loved to see more of her. People do not develop in a straight line in real life, after all. But the direct contrast between Naraku´s decision and Kikyo´s decision on Mount Hakurei for example...how she cared for the priest and helped him to let go of his life...the priest was such a perfect, wonderful mirror to her own desire. Yes, she could understand his desire to stay alive, to not be that stoic, strong image, people loved to see...People created human gods in order to believe...but these gods were people. Just like Kikyo had to suppress so much of her wishes, when she was alive. Beautiful scene.

In contrast to Sesshomarou, Kikyo has always been a nice and noble character. Kikyo becomes Kagome in another life, after all.

She has always cared for other people. Even after her death did she work as a priestess. It is very likely, that she did care for the people as a priestess in the beginning for once, because she had done it so often, when she was alive, but also because she hated, what she had become. Of the souls she had to steal in order to continue her existance.

But Kikyo could not let go...didn´t want to let Naraku get away. Because she considered him a danger, but also because she wished for revenge that strongly. She hated him so much.

Her finally choosing life, Kohaku´s over her revenge over Naraku, freed her spirit.

(One more thing. As much as I said that talking with her haters sometimes paradoxically feels more genuine than talking with her fans, it is also true that my heart aches every time people call Kikyō by disgusting nicknames).

I think, this is your personal opinion. I love to talk with her fans, because many of them can see the depth of this character. Her haters are so often just cranky, that she comes "between Inuyasha and Kagome". If those haters were honest, this is their main point, why they hate her.

• Yes, the Inugang acknowledges that Kikyō is not the same person she once was when they first met her, yes, they mourn her death, but this 1) has nothing to do with what I meant, because what I meant, what I mean is that you can like a character without trying to make them look "more likeable", because some characters, in fact, lose all their appeal and their significance if you do that, 2) doesn't necessarily mean that her redemption arc was perfectly handled by the author. PERSONALLY I don't think of Kikyō as "poorly written" (I saw somebody write this and as wrong as it sounds to me, that's a matter of taste), and, just to be clear, I really like her, but I don't think she is Takahashi's most successful/complete character either. Her most ambitious, fascinating experiment? Sure, but most succesful? Well, perhaps she could be considered such, depending on what one thinks is successful about her character (we'll discuss this later on).

• I simply used the word "sin" as a synonym for "crime" but alright, I'll give you that, not my best semantic choice.

• Sorry sorry sorry, I'm not questioning your knowledge of Inuyasha, it's just that every time my eyes read "merily compassion"/"just compassion"/etc I see red.

• Her moments during the Mount Hakurei arc are dear to me (that dialogue between she and Saint Hakushin in chapters 271-272 = episode 120 is my second or third favorite scene of the whole manga/anime) and I think that until then her development was really well done, I don't even mind that we don't get to see when it is exactly that she starts to change, on the contrary it actually makes her more intriguing, like an ineffable creature, something you can never fully grasp, but after that point... Mmmmh. I don't know. I have a feeling that things slowly collapse in on themselves.

• It's not that I don't like talking to her fans, it's just SAD that her fans (trolls obviously excluded), for all their intelligence, often are really blind. So. If the character they claim to love, as it turns out, actually is a character that only exists in their head as an idealization, what's the point? None of my business, sure, it's the fandom baby, this is how things goes, I know, but, like I said, I can't help but live this as a loss.

Having said this... LET'S START.

Why do people have a problem with murder only when it's Kikyō to commit it?

Why do fans have a problem admitting Kikyō's crimes?

These two questions, as jakotsuto pointed out, are intertwined:

Putting aside the part about the knife scene (that's a talk for another time as it's an anime-only scene) the thing is: fans are not comfortable with the idea of speaking frankly of Kikyō's darkness because the hate around her gets them defensive as apparently she is the only character who is not allowed to be dubious, to hate, to kill.

Is it because she's a woman? Is it because she is the "always-in-the-way ex"?

It is certainly true that people tend to be particularly cruel to her, to a self-righteous point. Like, once I had to explain why exactly accept her role as guardian of the Shikon no Tama wasn't just a "free choice" (💢), and that no, it wasn't an "act of hubris" either (💢🤬).

This is to say that I know what are you talking about, guys, I won't deny it, because it's undeniable and I hate this as much as you do, frustrated and misogynist haters are always there (and let's not forget that misogyny influences people on a subconscious level, far more difficult to discern than hurling open insults is), but it's not just this.

Yes, no one gives two shits about (for example) Kōga's misdeeds and crimes, true, but this has less to do with his being a man than with his insubstantiality. Kōga almost is nothing more than a draft, the shadow of a character. GOODNESS, NO ONE TAKES HIM SERIOUSLY (except part of his fans, yes, but I can't even bother to consider them, as well as I won't deign to consider Kikyō toxic fans). Kikyō, on the contrary, is anything but "insubstantial". And she is neither just a background figure nor a comic relief. She's taken seriously by the narrative and thus we read her that way.

We want to talk of Miroku? Oh, he is a mess, he can be the worst, but I don't think I've ever met a person in this fandom not abudantly critical of his behaviour, like, seriously, not one of his fans will try to make him pass for a saint just because of this or that. And the story treats him accordingly, without discounts. He himself is far from proud of the person he is (and I'm pretty sure he says so at some point? Any Miroku fan out there listening who will dispel the doubts?).

Moreover Kikyō is a character that, unlike guys such as Sesshōmaru and (partially?) Kōga, does know what it's like to care, she knows kindness, she has kindness inside of her, that's why her coldness (in killing, in speaking) is much, much more striking than theirs. That she knows very well the value of human life and yet shows no hesitation in taking it (as she is and is not human, is and is not a miko)... Of course is unsettling. Now. The function of her character certainly is to make you feel that way, because through her you see how easy can be to fall, see that no matter whether you're human or demon, darkness can touch you, to the point that even cultivating purity doesn't make you invulnerable to the insidious traps of evil, and this is good stuff, narratively speaking, I mean, REALLY good, no problem with it, so much so in fact that if you dislike her character for this, if you want her to be something different, that's a you problem and you'd better read some other book.

Also, if I'm being completely honest, I think she is awfully pleasant to look at when she's about to commit something really, deeply wrong, especially when she is aware of how really, deeply wrong is that, I can't help myself, so I hope you understand that it's not that the problem is my sensitivity/morality.

So where is the problem?

Here you go: how are we supposed to read her redemption arc? What was Takahashi's goal with Kikyō? What is Kikyō's redemption about?

The answers to these questions are not so obvious, and without definitive, reliable answers we can't even begin to answer the most important one: was the author able to achieve her goal with Kikyō? In other words: is Kikyō's arc consistent?

This is the point, for me. This is what we need to talk about.

Let's take Sesshōmaru again as term of reference. His arc revolves around learning to feel, to value life in its "lowest" forms and to let go of all the conflicts with his late father. Takahashi's plan for him wasn't a 360-degree change of mentality. Respect? Yes. Compassion? Yes. But to mingle with other people? Well, in part yes, it's inevitable since he always comes back to visit Rin in Kaede's village, and certainly this is quite the change for his standards. To ask for forgiveness? Nope. It would be insincere if he tried to, he did what he did because such was the way for him, Sesshōmaru knows this, and if one could mention one quality he has is his being true to himself, which gives him a "certain" honesty. He never tries to be someone he is not. And yet he comes to acknowledge Inuyasha's value, though in his own way, that is not brotherly, rather, I'd say, "warriorly", through the only tongue he speaks, the one of the sword (chapter 502, Proof; Final Act, episode 15, True Heir). To me it's clear how we have to read Sesshōmaru and so I'm able to tell that is arc is consistent. He is NOT perfect in his development, I can easily count 2 or 3 points that, with that little bit of extra attention, would have really made him shine, but the fact is that I'm perfectly able to say what is it about him which would have required more and what couldn't have been done better, because I have a key to read him, with Kikyō instead... well, not exactly. I can't say I know a key able to explain her character as a whole, from the beginning to the end. This probably means that my previous statement about her being less consistent, as character, than Sesshōmaru... was premature, so let's put this on hold for now.

At any rate, what one can affirm with certainty is that Kikyō is a character ten times more difficult to write than Sesshōmaru is (that's why I said she's probably Takahashi's most ambitious experiment) and with good reason: apart from all those complex themes she carries on, there's the fact that, while Sesshōmaru has the luxury to be mostly unrelated to what happens on a strictly plotline level, to the point that you can think of his presence as a solo performance, Kikyō is inextricably connected to almost everything. Even when she is not onstage she's still there. Through the relationships she has with other characters (namely, Inuyasha, Naraku and Kagome). Through the effects of her own actions.

So, all things considered, even in case we should find that not everything about her writing went smooth, that would still be understandable.

But if it's just that I'm not that good at reading Kikyō, then, please, help me! (Oh, I'm so serious right now, you have no idea).

What troubles me the most is that I used to think I knew which was her turning point, but I'm not so sure anymore. For one, I can't make sense of "At last... I have become that ordinary woman" (chapter 465, The Lights). How? When?

Even before this, there's to discuss her "salvation".

I know, just the mere fact that she's able to resist the fury burning her insides and then, bit by bit, vanquish it, it's a testament to her strong will and heart, like, I challenge ANYONE to do as much (!) and what's even more astounding is that, despite her harsh situation, she even does for Saint Hakushin what no one was able to do for her (not entirely true: see what manga Inuyasha says and does in chapter 49, Hatred Unspent, which wasn't enough to heal her soul just because it was too soon as she'd been just revived by Urasue).

But... Did she ever call into question her own actions? As I recall, perhaps the only real moment is in chapter 409, Divergence (Final Act, episode 5, The Great Holy Demon Spirit's Test) when she is considering the dilemma of Kohaku's sacrifice. As for the rest... She never had to face consequences (with one exception we'll discuss later). She must be aware of the harm she caused: as soon her judgement begins to clear up, she is more than capable to see it, she's far too intelligent to not to, but she never lets anyone be in the position to question her.

The reason is simple: she can't afford to hesitate. She has a mission and she can't be swayed. She's convinced she is the only one who can defeat Naraku, that that is her purpose, that's why she came back to life. This thought alone sustains her. It's an illusion of control and she can't escape it. Because if you can't move on, if you have no place, when you see no sense in your existence, you need to cling to any illusion within reach.

She needed to finish the work her past self, being only human, was not strong enough for.

To this, you may also add the fact that, running out of time, maybe she really thought that there wasn't another way to get rid of Naraku and of the Jewel, maybe she even thought that since Inuyasha and the others weren't willing to get their hands dirty for the greater good, she (as already "tainted") could sacrifice what remained of her soul to eternal damnation. There's the issue though that Kikyō doesn't seem to be conscious of the fact that to use Kohaku's shard will likely come at the cost of her own soul (?). She just acts expecting others to follow her plan as the only sensible thing to do, so I'm not sure this was Takahashi's intention (and that's a pity, it would have been an interesting narrative choice).

My guess is that probably readers/watchers have a hard time walking in her shoes because she never breaks, she never falters (save for her very first moments following her resurrection). Inuyasha, Kagome, Miroku, Sango, Kagura, Sesshōmaru (!), all of them at some point are brought to their knees. And not just physically. Kikyō's mind instead, even with her body pushed to its limits, remains set on her objective. I don't know. She's like a crusader. THIS is what makes her scary. This is what makes her difficult to empathize with to the masses. Even more than killing in cold blood. And it's not like I have a sick desire to see her break down in tears like that creepy motherfucker Onigumo, hell no, but sometimes in allowing yourself to be vulnerable, to admit that you can't do everything by yourself there is less weakness and more wisdom than there is in pressing forward with blind obstinacy. I mean, just imagine Kikyō accept that there's no need to be wonderwoman, that you can let others finish the work, that it doesn't matter if you failed, for what you did is enough. And thus return to the dead. Can you picture Naraku's face if she had did it at the end of Mount Hakurei arc? Lol, going through all that trouble to remove his human heart and have the chance to prove himself he feels absolutely nothing... only to find that Kikyō has crossed over, peacefully, unharmed, at her own terms, forever out of his reach. That would have been enough to make him fume.

This would have truly made her that ordinary woman she wanted to be, if you ask me.

What seemingly prevents Kikyō from taking this path is her main weakness: she is alone. Solitude has always been her condition. Meaning that where other characters (Inuyasha, Miroku, first examples to come to mind) are allowed to heal, to grow, to know other perspectives, to do better thanks to this strange thing called "the power of togetherness", Kikyō knows no such luxury. Hell, even that bastard of Sesshōmaru has people, even Kōga. The only character to have it tougher is Kagura, born into literal slavery and come to know kindness for the very first time in her life just before dying.

In life, Kikyō experienced isolation because she had to be above human fragility.

Now, this new Kikyō, walking undead among the living, tries to carve a place for herself in this or that village, but the fact that she needs to feed on young women's souls to sustain her clay body will always be a barrier, an obstacle, something simply too impossible to forgive.

Even less good would come from staying with the Inugang. For her, as well as for Inuyasha (or for Kagome, for that matter).

People sometimes say that this, her being alone, was Kikyō's price to pay. Well, in a way it is, but, after all, being around other people is even more of a "punishment", because she's always reminded of her otherness, of her "stillness". Given these circumstances, the isolation is a form of healing. It's as if she was quarantined, because she's as harmful to the living as the living are harmful to her.

There are creatures she can talk to though. Creatures she can talk to on a more equal level: unfortunates with split souls. From them she seems to learn and such encounters always bring some inexplicable peace for both parties.

And this is exactly why one would think that after the events following the destruction of Mount Hakurei and her fatal confrontation with Naraku, she would gain a new vision of things. Instead she survives the whole ordeal, but keeps going on sticking to her plan. As if nothing happened. As if Naraku hadn't just proven to be much more cunning than expected in his schemes. As if Saint Hakushin had not been enough of a lesson.

Honestly. What's the point in letting her live longer if she remains the same? Alright, I know, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT with Kikyō, but... please, by then the reader has perfectly understood it, and, besides, if she really really can't learn anything at all then the story is destined to never end and that simply can't be (unless you want to write an open ending but we know this is not the case).

So. If we have to work with what we have, here another tip: saved by Kagome's purifying powers, Kikyō, instead of Inuyasha (chapter 315, The Scent of the Nest), could have sent for the girl, and for two very good reasons at that: 1) Kagome is the one the older miko had a message (and a "gift") for on that occasion, right? Right! 2) A face-to-face with Kagome would have given their previous exchange (chapter 309, The Choice) soooooo much more weight, as in "I did not thank you back then because I couldn't bring myself to do it and because as miko that was your duty, but now I'm not holding back anymore and I recognize your value". And then... Well... she could just train her. I mean, really, properly training her. There would be no need to make Kikyō "nicer" to Kagome and I wouldn't like that either. Too easy. She could still be her aloof self AND try to do her best with her. Like: "This is your lesson, now make yourself scarce and remember to exercise at least one hour a day" (and maybe internally she'll be making a quiet "huff" that could almost sound like laughing? Like... Relief? Because she didn't even know she could do this "trust someone else" thing? Because when you teach someone your arts you learn something new both about yourself and about your art? Jeez, so much material there).

My opinion is that after her more reflective arc, she needed a more active one. Where she could put into practice that strange form of peace she absorbed through her past interactions with other characters, culminating with the warmth she feels in her chest after Kagome's intervention.

But... Who am I to say? Perhaps it's just that this wasn't how Takahashi felt about her character. Perhaps if Kikyō is like this, so impossibly unyielding, inflexible, to a self-destructive point (not only "self", actually), well... it's because so it is how Kikyō was supposed to be. Alright. Got it. But then you (not "you" as in "you two guys", rather as in "all her fans") can't come and talk to me of how kind Kikyō is. Because this Kikyō, THIS, the clay doll, not the one from her previous life, is forced to leave kindness behind. If anything, you should mourn the impossibility for her to be kind. You should accept that what little kindness she can allow herself to gift, as shadow of the miko she once was, is not her way to make up for her mistakes, that's just an attempt to save what little can be saved, because she knows she has blood (and souls) on her hands, but, in spite of this, is incapable to do otherwise.

She is often called "hero of her own story/life" and in part she is, because her violent side is not something she could have overcome without a strong will, even with all the external inputs she got. Her obstinacy though, her obsession, her "blindness", that is, that inability to see other options... That's something she couldn't figure out alone. If she came out of it, it's only thanks to the Inugang (see chapters 444-449 = The Final Act, episode 6, The End of Mōryōmaru). In the end, I think that her choice to save Miroku, as she was moved by having seen him sacrifice his life for Kohaku's sake, was taken knowing very well that absorbing the miasma would have weakened her already strained body significantly, preventing the fulfillment of her mission, so, yes, this is a very, VERY important moment, signaling that crucial change in her heart and in her mind that we were waiting for. Also, Kikyō's choice, as Sango says in page 2 of chapter 465, The Lights (The Final Act, episode 8, Among the Twinkling Stars, min 18.12), was made for Sango's sake, too, so that we could read this as a way for Kikyō to spare the girl the pain of going through her same tragedy AND as compensation/atonement for what she had thought to do of Kohaku.

So, what shall we do with all this? What do we get out of it? That maybe a big amount of the disappointment haters have actually has to do more with the stretching of Kikyō's arc, which aggravates the repetitiveness the story by then had mired in. There's also to say that maybe what haters hate, more than the actual character, is the idolatry reserved by fans to a false image of Kikyō, that is not the one written by Takahashi, for she will always be depicted as the hero of the story when in fact she is an anti-hero (if anything, as I said, she is the hero of her story, at least in part), as the goddess and saviour the Inugang should kiss the ground she walks on, but if her soul was saved is thanks to them. This false Kikyō somehow overshadowed (and overlapped with) the true Kikyō, so that it's not always so easy to understand which is the one people refer to, whether they do it with love or hate.

There's another topic: the matter with the Shinidamachu. I don't have a strong opinion on this, but I know that some people feel like something is wrong with Inuyasha & co just letting it be as if devouring other souls, on Kikyō's part, was no big deal and that Takahashi would not bring that up any further so that Kikyō could look "not so bad". I really don't know, but I doubt Takahashi would consider her readers so stupid? Anyway, one thing is true: imagine you've got the Inugang examine what it tells about them as people the fact that they're okay with Kikyō doing something as wrong as collecting souls to "live". This would be interesting. Although I have to highlight that in chapter 76, The Smell of Death, (episode 23, Kagome's Voice and Kikyō's Kiss) is Kikyō herself to raise the subject, still to have a more sober reflection from Inuyasha (who on that first occasion had other priorities), would not be bad.

I think that a lot of things about Kikyō and how the other characters feel about her could have been deepened much more if not for the fact that that stupid jealousy thing was often more important for Takahashi, faking a love triangle where never was one just to create tension was too often more important (💩). Ugh... I love Rumiko Takahashi, she's a damn genious, but sometimes... Just sometimes...

And here comes the worst.

WHAT.

ABOUT.

INUYASHA?

I can accept almost everything if I really have to, I don't even ask for a proper talk between Kikyō and Kagome because somehow they still came to an understanding (I would have wanted more, for the sake of both characters' growth, as already explained, and for the sake of my own heart aching for kagkik, but still... alright). Inuyasha is an entirely different matter though. Guys, Kikyō manipulated the shit out of him at will, she actively (and then more passively) fueled his guilt, to the point that he thought he had to give her his life - read: die (chapter 153, Kikyō's Plan and chapter 172, Onigumo's Heart). This is abuse. Quite literally. And I don't even think Inuyasha ever realized it, because this is how abuse works, especially when the abuser is a person you love and whose death and current helpless state you feel responsible for.

Yes. I know. I know what is the context behind. Kikyō is a prisoner. Upon her resurrection she was enslaved to her blind rage, to her obsession for Inuyasha, a sick version of her past feelings. The tragic irony is not lost on me: can you imagine what the old Kikyō would have thought of this version of herself? A version so terribly similar in its wickedness to the foe responsible of her death? Exactly.

All her character in fact is a stratificaton of different levels of tragic irony and this is amazing, but...

But.

That she was not able to acknowledge out loud (or even just internally) what she did to him... IS unforgivable. This thing that you are kind to random people, but don't give a damn about the person you love only makes you hypocrite and implies that said person means absolutely nothing to you (so much for "love"). And what's worse is that this wasn't Takahashi's intention, she wasn't trying to write her as an hypocrite, as a flawed human, "imperfect", yes, even in death because death doesn't make you wiser, because death is just death... No, the general impression with Kikyō's last chapters rather is that Takahashi really wanted to make her look like the perfect, immaculate martyr, that she (the author) simply forgot that Kikyō, other than victim, is a victimizer (and tens other things), and, in doing so, loosing sight of that inner conflict which underlies this character, a conflict so impactful and beautiful in its bitter taste, but apparently destined to never be fully addressed, just left behind as if it had never existed in the first place.

Sure, you could argue that Takahashi's point was that it was too late for Kikyō and Inuyasha to untangle the knot of guilt, love-slash-idealization-of-a-feeling-not-lived, sorrow, and abuse, that all of this was woven together to a point of no return so that there could be no real release. If that's the case, well, fine, it makes sense, I guess (?), but then I hope you understand what this means: their relationship did more harm than good to them, and to Inuyasha especially. A hard pill for sure, because, damn, what is more tragic than two good people who, coming into contact in bad circumstances, only manage to hurt each other. When you think that one of the two literally is a healer it stings even more.

But then again, if your point is "it's too late, it's always been too late for everything", goodness, at least you should allow me to see that Kikyō is aware of this and feels miserable about it, because now that she finally is free of whatever it was that before couldn't let her say it out loud, now she has no strenght left to. This wasn't something the author could afford to sweep under the carpet.

I think, this might be one major difference. I do not see this as "darkness". I know, that the manga "Inuyasha" more or less associates Naraku with darkness, but I honestly consider them more as flawed characters. Or in Kikyo´s case as somebody, who lost everything.

No person alive would realistically react positively towards this.

Is it because she's a woman? Is it because she is the "always-in-the-way ex"?

If people were honest. Yes, these are the reasons. Male characters can be as flawed and horrible and most of the time hardly anybody complains.

The amount of guys who admire the joker is sickening.

And yes, most girls have a knee-jerk reaction to the fact, that Inuyasha not only loves Kagome, but Kikyo, too.

I am not a shipper of Kikyo and Inuyasha, but from his reactions you can clearly perceive that the guy loves her. And as people cannot have this, they invent every reason, why Inuyasha does not love her and Kikyo is crucified for a complete normal reaction.

Yes, no one gives two shits about (for example) Kōga's misdeeds and crimes, true, but this has less to do with his being a man than with his insubstantiality. Kōga almost is nothing more than a draft, the shadow of a character.

This shadow of a character at least appears regularly for quite some time and even acquires a weapon. Koga is not always a laughingstock. But I admit, I rarely keep attention, as he does not interest me.

Moreover Kikyō is a character that, unlike guys such as Sesshōmaru and (partially?) Kōga, does know what it's like to care, she knows kindness,

Koga and Sesshomaru know it, too, they just don´t bother. Your argument is basically, because Kikyo is kind, she has to be always kind in every situation, while the boys get a pass, because they don´t care for human beings, even though those two both care for individual human beings. So they know kindness and how to care...they just choose not to.

that's why her coldness (in killing, in speaking) is much, much more striking than theirs. That she knows very well the value of human life and yet shows no hesitation in taking it (as she is and is not human, is and is not a miko)... Of course is unsettling. Now.

Not for me and apparently in regard to her fans neither. It doesn´t unsettle me, because I understand human reactions. I value every character the same in regard to their deeds, there are no distinctions.

Sesshomaru does not get a "pass", because he is a demon. He does not even eat human beings. So him killing them, because they are in the way, does not earn him any points.

Sesshomaru gets a pass for the same reason, as Kikyo gets a pass - I just don´t care.

I don´t care, how morally good a character is, if she or he is interesting. Personally I hate it just, when people perceive said character worse than she or he actually is.

Kikyo killed people, because they were trying to kill her - like the priest - or because she wishes to prolong her existence. Not wishing to die, because she wishes for revenge is an awfully normal reaction, if you consider, what she went through.

Additionally, it is even reasonable. Naraku is a very dangerous demon that has killed countless people in the process of attaining the Shikon no tama. It is reasonable for Kikyo to wish to prolong her life, as she has the abilities to finish this demon off.

I dislike Inuyasha a lot more, because he bores me most of the time.

The function of her character certainly is to make you feel that way,

You should not make the mistake to perceive your personal reactions as objective truth. They aren´t. How a character is perceived is so often too personal.

The function of her character certainly is to make you feel that way, because through her you see how easy can be to fall, see that no matter whether you're human or demon, darkness can touch you, to the point that even cultivating purity doesn't make you invulnerable to the insidious traps of evil, and this is good stuff, narratively speaking,

I think, we perceive her really fundamental differently. Kikyo had been caged all her life in this role as a miko and when she tried to stray from this path, a demon came and killed her. Naraku took everything from her. She even died believing it was Inuyasha. What a burning betrayal.

Her trauma and hate didn´t let her go. This was the reason her existence didn´t end.

It wasn´t that she was suddenly too unclean. It was the wish and will to take revenge upon the people, who have wronged her.

Here you go: how are we supposed to read her redemption arc? What was Takahashi's goal with Kikyō? What is Kikyō's redemption about?

I perceive Kikyo like the "Count of Montechristo". That guy, too, had sufferend and had constructed an intrigant plan to bring the people, who have wronged him down.

Later he understands the cost of revenge, not just the pain, he has endured, but also the pain, he inflicted. The sacrifices and victims. This guy even gets a happy end, but somehow Kikyo needs a redemption?

Kikyo´s "redemption" was most likely unsatisfying for you, because her journey was no redemption.

Takahashi has not tought she needed one - at least Kikyo´s journey has never striked me as one.

Kikyo learnt to let go...of her grieve, her pain and the wish for revenge. Kikyo is literally released from this Earth, because her hate has subsided. Because she valued human life so much more, than her own grieve and pain.

It was a healing journey, not a journey for her to "acquire points in regard to a nebulous redemption".

Yes, Inuyasha and co. perceived her differently, but Kikyo has hardly cared for this fact. She cared for people out of an inner wish.

Kikyo came to terms, that she had always had too high expectations for herself in the past. These expectations of other people literally limited her way of life, as other people wished to see her as holy, when she just was a normal girl, a nice and kind girl, but she still was just a girl.

Not a god.

Not a saint.

Kikyo forgave herself and others. Her own mistakes made her accept other´s faults, too. She grew during her journey considerably.

Also, if I'm being completely honest, I think she is awfully pleasant to look at when she's about to commit something really, deeply wrong, especially when she is aware of how really, deeply wrong is that, I can't help myself, so I hope you understand that it's not that the problem is my sensitivity/morality.

It does appear, as if your morality is a problem here. These are characters in fiction. Not real life people. So anybody can basically think everything about a character. Some are more profound and other takes aren´t. Sometimes it is nice, talking with people with completely different takes though, but sometimes it becomes tiring.

Let's take Sesshōmaru again as term of reference. His arc revolves around learning to feel, to value life in its "lowest" forms and to let go of all the conflicts with his late father.

This applies to Kikyo, too. No character was trying for a moral purity contest. Every character learnt, what she or he needed. Sesshomarou learnt to love a human being and therefore did relate to other human beings slightly, very slightly more compassionate as he did not kill them for no reason. If this could be applied generally or merely in regard to the Inuyasha´s gang, I honestly wonder…

Takahashi's plan for him wasn't a 360-degree change of mentality. Respect? Yes. Compassion? Yes. But to mingle with other people? Well, in part yes, it's inevitable since he always comes back to visit Rin in Kaede's village, and certainly this is quite the change for his standards. To ask for forgiveness? Nope. It would be insincere if he tried to, he did what he did because such was the way for him,

And here again. You set the bar for Kikyo unbelievable high and for Sesshomarou unbelievable low. Why not apply the same rule to both? His vile deeds were even less forgiveable than hers in my eyes. He did it out of thoughtlessness and indifference, while she tried to literally extend her existence.

Her „way“ was having a trauma response and feeling unbelievable pain for her lost life.

To me it's clear how we have to read Sesshōmaru and so I'm able to tell that is arc is consistent.

And so is Kikyo´s. It was a way of healing...of letting go...going the way of the Count of Montechristo, but even better.

At any rate, what one can affirm with certainty is that Kikyō is a character ten times more difficult to write than Sesshōmaru is (that's why I said she's probably Takahashi's most ambitious experiment)

Well, finally a point, we agree with. Indeed. She is more difficult, because healing is difficult and it is not always a straight line. Sometimes there are relapses.

Even when she is not onstage she's still there. Through the relationships she has with other characters (namely, Inuyasha, Naraku and Kagome). Through the effects of her own actions.

Another point we can agree with. With Kikyo and Inuyasha the journey startet and with Kagome and Inuyasha the journey came to an end.

At any rate, what one can affirm with certainty is that Kikyō is a character ten times more difficult to write than Sesshōmaru is (that's why I said she's probably Takahashi's most ambitious experiment)

Well, finally a point, we agree with. Indeed. She is more difficult, because healing is difficult and it is not always a straight line. Sometimes there are relapses.

But if it's just that I'm not that good at reading Kikyō, then, please, help me! (Oh, I'm so serious right now, you have no idea).

If you let me, I try.

I know, just the mere fact that she's able to resist the fury burning her insides and then, bit by bit, vanquish it, it's a testament to her strong will and heart, like, I challenge ANYONE to do as much (!) and what's even more astounding is that, despite her harsh situation, she even does for Saint Hakushin what no one was able to do for her (not entirely true: see what mangaInuyasha says and does in chapter 49, Hatred Unspent, which wasn't enough to heal her soul just because it was too soon as she'd been just revived by Urasue).

Personally, I think it was more a gradual shift. At the beginning she wished to finish Inuyasha off. I think, the image that Inuyasha, whom she had loved so much, had betrayed her so gravely, was too much for her.

Of course Kagome was in the way. Even then, she appeared to feel jealousy.

Then Naraku appeared and this changed much. One great burden was removed. The person, she had loved, had loved her too. It had been a cruel twist of another. Of course, she felt a burning hate for Naraku and she had no qualms to lead him on. In a way she allowed herself to be more human, less of a saint than she previously was.

She taunted Naraku and even helped him, wishing to finish him off. The hate was still present. She was fragile and isolated – but this was nearly a normal statue for her. She had been always alone as a miko, too. Yet, she could not completely look herself into the mirror anymore. She felt clearly shame for taking lives. The eyes of the little girl, who had seen her as a big sister.

(A fact that I can completely understand, but Kikyo had high expectations for herself).

Naraku was her mirror...in so many ways.

The longing, the desire to acquire something that was lost forever. The pain. The jealousy. He stooped so low...It was not that he was entirely unfeeling or "evil", as people might call it. "Evil" would be the absence of "goodness". And this was not even in Naraku the case. No, he had those human feelings, that he called "basic desires" for Kikyo. The hate, with whom he had bound Inuyasha and co to himself.

After Kikyo´s death he was nothing more than a husk. Naraku had completely destroyed himself, because he had not turnt around. Because he had never listened to these "basic desires". Because he had always capitalized his understanding of other people.

Naraku could relate...Kagome was absolutely right, when she shouted this into his face at the end.

But Kikyo had turnt around.

That is why Takahashi showed their different reactions at Mount Hakurei.

Kikyo was starting to accept her own mistakes, when she saw two other mirrors. The physician of those warriors, who has literally turnt mad due to the things he saw, his weakness, was her weakness. She wished to free him and in turn free herself. She saw herself in him.

And the priest on Mount Hakurei, who had committed evil in order to stay alive.

Kikyo understood. Herself and others. Humans are fallible. Sometimes they break. Sometimes when we are open, we can connect with other people like this. You can understand them, have mercy and so allow the other person and yourself to become different, to choose the better version. Finally the huge gap between herself and other people slowly started to close more and more.

Trying to protect Kohaku, who had a splinter of the Shikon no Tama was her next step. She could have taken it - it was safer. But she decided - already differently.

Because Kohaku, too, was a mirror to her. A boy, who had committed horrible deeds due to Naraku´s influence. A boy, who was merely able to live due to this little splinter.

If Kikyo had been the old version, the pure maiden, she might have taken it to save it. But she didn´t, because she could relate to Kohaku. Because he was a little brother, whose big sister would have lost him forever.

Kohaku has felt so much grieve and pain due to his deeds just like Kikyo, yet Kikyo wished for him to life. He still had a chance. She didn´t, but instead of jealousy she was now ready give this child a chance.

That is the reason, it means so much for me, that she rescued Kohaku. She had to give up the revenge to save him. She saved him and saved herself with it. Kikyo could finally let go.

Forgivness and compassion is not always a one way route. People affect each other.

Kagome as the last mirror

The last person she accepted was Kagome. In order to rescue Kohaku she needed Kagome. Kikyo had always been alone. She had been the only saviour of the people. Again, she had ignored Kagome at the beginning, because she considered herself the only viable option. Heck, she even considered Kagome just another version of herself. In a way, she is right. They share the same core, the same essence, the same soul.

However, Kagome was definitely different in so many ways, because she lived the life Kikyo had desired. Being normal with a family.

Naraku, who really chose isolation, brought so many people together- it is amusing. One of the most interesting couples are Kagome and Kikyo. Kikyo needed Kagome´s help after Mount Hakurei, because Naraku had nearly killed her. But she could just not give up. So she tried Kagome and Kagome accepted.

She had had so many reasons to not help her, to let her die...but she didn´t. Because of Inuyasha, because Kagome wished to be not like this. Because she would have been not able to look herself in the mirror.

It had been never about acquiring some card blank for something, but about letting go and accepting her death.

What troubles me the most is that I used to think I knew which was her turning point, but I'm not so sure anymore. For one, I can't make sense of "At last... I have become that ordinary woman" (chapter 465, The Lights). How? When?

That was her entire process. From a revered miko, who lived separated from everybody else to an "ordinary woman", a person like everybody else.

Kikyo had wished to be with people all her life. All her life she was the Miko, who lived isolated from the rest of humanity (like the monk, who was venerated as a saint), from the people she cared about. But near her death she had become finally "ordinary" meaning like all the other people, meaning not anymore isolated.

She felt like them. She allowed herself a greater freedom as previously. Not as a holy inhuman, always strong figure.

Additionally her powers had also ceased because she was at death´s door. She received not only the love, that she had desired - not only Inuyasha, but everybody else mournt her death - but she truly cared for Kohaku, Inuyasha, had accepted Kagome.

This time she had truly wished to rescue everybody more from an inner motivation than it being her task as a miko.

But... Did she ever call into question her own actions? As I recall, perhaps the only real moment is in chapter 409, Divergence (Final Act, episode 5, The Great Holy Demon Spirit's Test) when she is considering the dilemma of Kohaku's sacrifice. As for the rest... She never had to face consequences (with one exception we'll discuss later). She must be aware of the harm she caused: as soon her judgement begins to clear up, she is more than capable to see it, she's far too intelligent to not to, but she never lets anyone be in the position to question her.

For what reason do you wish even more harm to Kikyo? The punishment has been executed with her death. Sesshomaru did 10.000 times worse things, but did not repent anything.

Kikyo surely felt shame for her situation, when she fled from the young girl, she had cared about. After the death of the priest.

I am truly unable to understand, why Kikyo alone has to face consequences, when so many people did worse than her.

The reason is simple: she can't afford to hesitate. She has a mission and she can't be swayed. She's convinced she is the only one who can defeat Naraku, that that is her purpose, that's why she came back to life. This thought alone sustains her. It's an illusion of control and she can't escape it. Because if you can't move on, if you have no place, when you see no sense in your existence, you need to cling to any illusion within reach.

It is not an illusion that Kikyo is a threat to Naraku and she also had a pretty good chance to hurt him, as she can move his heart.

But more than necessity, Kikyo wished to take revenge on him. That is a pretty normal feeling.

You misunderstand. Kikyo could not let go of her hate; she could not accept her own death. Therefore she was cursed to walk the Earth so long until she could let go. Even if she had perceived it as a mission to eliminate Naraku, her hate clearly was the driving force.

In the moment she felt peace, her soul could move on - finally.

To this, you may also add the fact that, running out of time, maybe she really thought that there wasn't another way to get rid of Naraku and of the Jewel, maybe she even thought that since Inuyasha and the others weren't willing to get their hands dirty for the greater good, she (as already "tainted") could sacrifice what remained of her soul to eternal damnation. There's the issue though that Kikyō doesn't seem to be conscious of the fact that to use Kohaku's shard will likely come at the cost of her own soul (?). She just acts expecting others to follow her plan as the only sensible thing to do, so I'm not sure this was Takahashi's intention (and that's a pity, it would have been an interesting narrative choice).

Naraku was a truly dangerous demon, as he would do anything to attain the Shikon no Tama. A person with a fragile personhood, that had no respect for other´s lives. He was always able to slip away. Time and time again. And Kikyo acted overwhelmingly alone. She dared Kagome, but she did not force her to help her.

She wished to make sure, that he would not get the whole Shikon no Tama without destroying him. And Kohaku would be her final weapon, but at the end Kohaku was more important than her revenge.

So. If we have to work with what we have, here another tip: saved by Kagome's purifying powers, Kikyō, instead of Inuyasha (chapter 315, The Scent of the Nest), could have sent for the girl, and for two very good reasons at that: 1) Kagome is the one the older miko had a message (and a "gift") for on that occasion, right? Right! 2) A face-to-face with Kagome would have given their previous exchange (chapter 309, The Choice) soooooo much more weight, as in "I did not thank you back then because I couldn't bring myself to do it and because as miko that was your duty, but now I'm not holding back anymore and I recognize your value". And then... Well... she could just train her. I mean, really, properly training her. There would be no need to make Kikyō "nicer" to Kagome and I wouldn't like that either. Too easy. She could still be her aloof self AND try to do her best with her. Like: "This is your lesson, now make yourself scarce and remember to exercise at least one hour a day" (and maybe internally she'll be making a quiet "huff" that could almost sound like laughing? Like... Relief? Because she didn't even know she could do this "trust someone else" thing? Because when you teach someone your arts you learn something new both about yourself and about your art? Jeez, so much material there).

Chapter 309

Kikyo started to acknowledge Kagome in chapter 309, but it was hard for her. Very hard. As Kagome basically lived the life Kikyo had desired so much.

Kikyo could still feel the warmth of Kagome´s touch in chapter 309. She touched her breast, the place where her heart had been beating, if she had been still alive.

It was also a test of Kagome´s heart. She knew how she felt for Kagome, but it was still strange to see this person. Kikyo clearly did not wish to see Kagome.

Kagome had not had any doubt, that she wanted to save her though. Kikyo was most likely slowly feeling the water, if Kagome was able to fulfill her task, if she should fail. Being with Inuyasha, she was more able to protect him, too.

Chapter 315

Kikyo wished to see Inuyasha. I am honestly not a great defender of this couple, nor I am greatly interested in it. But that she rather wished to see his face, is clear.

People so strong they may appear need somebody a person they can lean on. I think, she was happy to see him.

That she got the arrow was at least a little demonstration of confidence. Not much, as there was still enough doubt in her words:

"It´s up to her wheter she uses it well or not though."

For Kikyo this is no joke at all. And she had no great desire to see Kagome. To see "another version" and yet not, felt like a burning pain.

My opinion is that after her more reflective arc, she needed a more active one. Where she could put into practice that strange form of peace she absorbed through her past interactions with other characters, culminating with the warmth she feels in her chest after Kagome's intervention.

She felt the warmth of a living woman...somebody who still had all her life in front of her, while Kikyo had no future. I think, it was good that it was Kohaku, somebody who had "also sinned" whom she started to care more.

But... Who am I to say? Perhaps it's just that this wasn't how Takahashi felt about her character. Perhaps if Kikyō is like this, so impossibly unyielding, inflexible, to a self-destructive point (not only "self", actually), well... it's because so it is how Kikyō was supposed to be. Alright. Got it. But then you (not "you" as in "you two guys", rather as in "all her fans") can't come and talk to me of how kind Kikyō is. Because this Kikyō, THIS, the clay doll, not the one from her previous life, is forced to leave kindness behind. If anything, you should mourn the impossibility for her to be kind. You should accept that what little kindness she can allow herself to gift, as shadow of the miko she once was, is not her way to make up for her mistakes, that's just an attempt to save what little can be saved, because she knows she has blood (and souls) on her hands, but, in spite of this, is incapable to do otherwise.

Where is she "inflexible"? Just because she did not completely bent over backwards? For whom? Kagome? Why should she?

Kikyo is unbelievable kind. She cares for other people even if those people were not exactly her friends. She saved Kohaku, Miroku, Kyoga (even though this guy was a demon as well). And so many others. Other weaker people would have gone bananas a long time ago. Not Kikyo.

She doesn´t have to be a saint to have the right to exist. She has gone out in a beautiful light, freeing herself and I am glad for her. Kikyo becomes at some time Kagome and could live like she wished it.

She is often called "hero of her own story/life" and in part she is, because her violent side is not something she could have overcome without a strong will, even with all the external inputs she got. Her obstinacy though, her obsession, her "blindness", that is, that inability to see other options… That's something she couldn't figure out alone. If she came out of it, it's only thanks to the Inugang (see chapters 444-449 = The Final Act, episode 6, The End of Mōryōmaru). In the end, I think that her choice to save Miroku, as she was moved by having seen him sacrifice his life for Kohaku's sake, was taken knowing very well that absorbing the miasma would have weakened her already strained body significantly, preventing the fulfillment of her mission, so, yes, this is a very, VERY important moment, signaling that crucial change in her heart and in her mind that we were waiting for. Also, Kikyō's choice, as Sango says in page 2 of chapter 465, The Lights (The Final Act, episode 8, Among the Twinkling Stars, min 18.12), was made for Sango's sake, too, so that we could read this as a way for Kikyō to spare the girl the pain of going through her same tragedy AND as compensation/atonement for what she had thought to do of Kohaku.

What options did she have? The hate towards Naraku, the loss of her young life in such a brutal, horrifying way, would not go just disappear. Human beings don´t work like this.

Kikyo was not blind. I honestly don´t even know, what you even mean? There was no force that could make her "forget this event". It was her choice to care for Miroku, Kyoga, Kohaku and the others. As it was Kagome to rescue her.

Kikyo did not need to "atone" for shit, if nobody else bothered with it.

So, what shall we do with all this? What do we get out of it? That maybe a big amount of the disappointment haters have actually has to do more with the stretching of Kikyō's arc, which aggravates the repetitiveness the story by then had mired in. There's also to say that maybe what haters hate, more than the actual character, is the idolatry reserved by fans to a false image of Kikyō, that is not the one written by Takahashi, for she will always be depicted as the hero of the story when in fact she is an anti-hero (if anything, as I said, she is the hero of her story, at least in part), as the goddess and saviour the Inugang should kiss the ground she walks on, but if her soul was saved is thanks to them. This false Kikyō somehow overshadowed (and overlapped with) the true Kikyō, so that it's not always so easy to understand which is the one people refer to, whether they do it with love or hate.

Bullshit behind every hater´s mind is a strong wish to negate that Inuyasha loved Kikyo very much.

Kikyo is basically in the way. It is really not that deep. Kikyo is the heroine of her story. She is Kagome´s other self. Once 500 years ago, Kagome was Kikyo. It is rather interesting how nearly the same human being or rather two people with the same core of being are depicted.

To know, to what Kagome would be able to if she was in the same situation is very interesting.

And I think I stop here, as you are clearly not really rational. I have never seen Kikyo fans claim that they should kiss the ground she walks on.

If we get answers at least, I would be on board. The thing I mourn is, that we will never see, how they work as a couple. How are Lily and Soo Won was parents?

One note, I doubt that Soo Won merely perceives himself "unworthy" based on the newest events. His problems lie deeper or he would not have just tried to "replace his father", "replace Yona´s mother" or die for "his father´s sake" as if he himself is never enough for anything.

I would have wanted for people to acknowledge him as a full person for once. Not just his intelligence as Hak had previously done.

An exception for Rape, Life of the Mother, and Incest mean nothing when you have to prove it in a court of law, or get a team of lawyers and judges to sign off on it which can take weeks or even months.

Weeks a person dying hasn't got. Women are now dying. Actually dying. Because hospitals legally could not save their lives until they could wake up a judge and get their lawyers, and another sides lawyers awake and up and figured out if it was actually necessary or not. All people with no understanding of medicine, and no attatchment to the person suffering who simply doesn't want to die.

There's a lot more I could cover, like the increase in illegal abortion, abortion tourism, the massive increase in infant abandonment... but I'm going to leave it here.

People are dying. People who should be alive. Who would be alive if abortion was legal and the hospital could have simply treated their patient without waiting for a dozen men with no medical experience in another building to decide if their patient actually needs treatment or not. And yes they do have to wait. Because if they don't they get charged with murder for trying to save a life.

If I forget for a moment the fate of characters that I like, I don´t even reallly understand the direction this last couple of chapters go.

Of course 2 months after she has ascended the throne, Yona is unlikely to be good at a queen. Additionally there is still much broken inside of this country after fires and earthquakes.

Seeing Yona struggle for one chapter would have been definitely good, but for 3 chapters? Is she the perfect queen in one chapter?

What was the point of Yona´s ascension? What changed fundamentally? It is basically the question:

"Where is the Dawn"?

It was easier to criticize Yu hon, Soo Won´s father.

If we get answers at least, I would be on board. The thing I mourn is, that we will never see, how they work as a couple. How are Lily and Soo Won was parents?

One note, I doubt that Soo Won merely perceives himself "unworthy" based on the newest events. His problems lie deeper or he would not have just tried to "replace his father", "replace Yona´s mother" or die for "his father´s sake" as if he himself is never enough for anything.

I would have wanted for people to acknowledge him as a full person for once. Not just his intelligence as Hak had previously done.

@matcha-chai-latte

While he was “playing” priest, he never heard the gods while telling everyone heavens are protecting them. Not then and not ever since, until he slit his throat in the mausoleum.

Maybe it helps, if I mention, that we literally not know from a priest or another religious leader if he actually has this holy connection or not.

Yes, Zeno lied and it was even a lie that he held towards himself and not only the others.

Because Zeno even believed he would act like King Hiryuu had wished for. But the funny thing is, that Hiryuu told him for 10-16 years that Zeno won´t fight. And Zeno did fight.

Zeno made this decisions thinking it might be the will of Hiryuu, his father, his god, but actually they were his own decisions.

And even the text tells us this:

"I don´t want the people to get hurt".

"That is King Hiryuu´s wish".

he declared then. But it was Zeno´s decision to follow in King Hiryuu´s footsteps.

Just like Soo Won, who had believed to have replaced his father:

Soo Won literally believed to need to replace his father.

And he also lied and killed people.

However, the people do not care, because it depends on the effect.

Would the people really be so disappointed, if they heard, that Zeno had protected them for 20 years mostly alone?

Hell no! Because effectively Zeno protected them.

If it was a god, or the teletubbies, who cares at the end?

If this guy still could still hear the voice of the gods a little bit?

Really, had Gobi a holy connection to the gods? Nobody can prove it.

Ik soo helped the people, if he had this power or not. The people literally don´t know, that he is a priest. And so did Zeno helpe the people with or without his godly power.

We’re talking about a fantasy world so pretty much their priests are different from real ones.

Im just saying that it seems the priests Kouka had tended to have some “connection” with the gods, had visions, heard their voices, could convey the “will of the gods” etc. So that’s a specific common trait of priests in Kouka. Zeno is sure not “unrelated” to the gods but if he didn’t have any connection with them, then he was not truly a priest. His intention was to keep people in the castle from panicking about the dragons leaving them, not to be a real priest for itself.

Zeno tells the people Hiryuu’s medallion is a relic from the heavens (that connects him to the gods) and he will be now conveying the will of the heavens to them all. That’s why they accepted him as their priest. In reality though he was never hearing any gods and could never convey anything. If he was not acting for their sake, then I don’t know what he was doing. I don’t know how else to explain😅

Why? Who could prove this, if they heard the gods or not? Visions or hearing the gods was a personal experience. In a fantasy world or not.

If they had actually heard it, imagined it (like Joan D´Arc) or lied about it? Who could literally prove it?

Nobody.

Im just saying that it seems the priests Kouka had tended to have some “connection” with the gods, had visions, heard their voices, could convey the “will of the gods” etc. So that’s a specific common trait of priests in Kouka. Zeno is sure not “unrelated” to the gods but if he didn’t have any connection with them, then he was not truly a priest. His intention was to keep people in the castle from panicking about the dragons leaving them, not to be a real priest for itself.

The people believed in him, therefore he was a priest.

Zeno tells the people Hiryuu’s medallion is a relic from the heavens (that connects him to the gods) and he will be now conveying the will of the heavens to them all.

In a way, he might have believed this, too. After all, he believed he would do, what King Hiryuu had wanted. So he had conveyed the King´s will.

But it did not actually matter.

The dragon gods were only specifically related to Kouka and Gobi is not from Kouka, so I’d bet he didn’t hear shit.

We saw Ik-soo conveying the will of the gods to Yona? Not just the prophecy, he said Hak could die without the dragons, which ties to what Yona saw in her dream when she was 14-15. Said that Yona’s life will lead to Kouka “rumbling”. And clearly knew who the “sword and shield” were, said they’re not yet ready. Wasn’t birds that chirped him all that in the ear.

Kashi and Yona could see the future sent by divine forces. The past priest instantly felt Yong-hi’s blood was Hiryuu’s, and clearly as he was the main priest, that was far from the only thing he could do, either Iksoo or Kashi said he taught them a lot. Imo clearly they were not hanging out in temples for nothing. They could definitely see and feel things others couldn’t.

Zeno like I said is no ordinary ofc, as a dragon he could also “feel” things but again, ever since he became a dragon warrior, he did not hear neither voices nor have visions or whatever. The gods became silent to him.

In a way, he might have believed this, too.

Yes, could be. I think he was definitely trying to call out to them but with no avail. Just like we saw him do when Kaya was dying.

Who knows?

He glasped the hands together and then was speaking rashly this words. It could have been true or not true.

If Zeno had not heard this vow already, we would be unsure, if he had been spoken the truth or not.

Not just the prophecy, he said Hak could die without the dragons, which ties to what Yona saw in her dream when she was 14-15.

Yona does not remember this, though. He could have also invented something and nobody would have known. Could have hardly known that Zeno is immortal.

Like this you do -usually - not know, if the priest said the truth or not.

Said that Yona’s life will lead to Kouka “rumbling”. And clearly knew who the “sword and shield” were, said they’re not yet ready. Wasn’t birds that chirped him all that in the ear.

Do we know it? Francis of Assis could talk with birds, if I remember correctly.

Did he know it or not? Have the "gods", whoever they were - if the dragon gods or other "higher entities"- really told him more? Merely from the words he spoke, you could hardly derive this.

So he could be really just some mediator, who spoke the words he heard directly or not. I also wonder about your interpretation, as if would imply, he would be alright with "forgiving" Soo Won, who was the son of Yu hon. The very person, who had nearly killed all the people.

I also wonder, how Iksoo has survive. King Il was shown merely to carry Kashi out. Where was Iksoo when everything started? How was he able to survive? Was there really just the headpriest, Iksoo and Kashi in the whole temple?

Kashi and Yona could see the future sent by divine forces. The past priest instantly felt Yong-hi’s blood was Hiryuu’s, and clearly as he was the main priest, that was far from the only thing he could do,

They were intuitive people. Some people feel a little more. It is a knowledge, that is not entirely explored.

About the headpriest...We literally don´t know it. Zeno was also headpriest with 0 power in that direction. It can work.

But in theory you could be schizophrenic and hear voices and be persuaded you heard the voice of the gods. How do we know, if Joan D´Arc really heard the voice of god, when she believed she was chosen to rescue France? Would that have made her somehow worse, if she had been a little bit crazy or even lied?

She was still so succesful, that a couple of men decided they wished to eliminate her. Due to her influence. Fate can have an amazing power. Self-fulfilling prophecies exist.

I have known a woman, who was convinced that angels were speaking with her. I could hardly disprove her, right?

Imo clearly they were not hanging out in temples for nothing. They could definitely see and feel things others couldn’t.

The most prominent example for a priest in that series hanged out in a temple without having any power.

Kashi wished for the strange dreams, for her intuition to have some deeper meaning. She saw some scenes and in Yona´s case it did not even come true. Zeno did not have the heart to kill Hak. And I doubt this guy would have ever had the heart to kill them.

The mangaka had confirmed, that when Zeno had transformed and he tried to threathen them, had tried to push them to a safer place. So that they would not be buried under the rubble.

So what did Yona actually see? The future or pictures contorted by her fear?

That the dragon gods were only related to Kouka or that Gobi couldn’t hear them? I’d say it’s logical since Gobi himself is unrelated to Kouka and the gods are very much only related to Kouka.

Both. We saw in that strange light at the lake even gods or higher beings from other parts of the world. And it would be strange and illogical, why all the gods, every higher being was a Kouka-only-thing.

Besides if Gobi could hear gods or not, we would not know again. Not all of this beings have to be "good", after all.

That reminds me of the stormlight series, where Dalinar believed to hear god. However it was merely a spirit he heard. And a memento of a god, who used to be just a simple human being.

Or even of Berserk, who appears to be a progenitor of this work. There gods and devils are basically the same.

I don’t think he ever claimed anything like that either unless I forgot it. If he said so then who knows but I don’t remember him having any special intuition or anything. He was just a freaky prick.

Oh. So you actually think he lied? Can’t help that I guess.

However as we saw his information turned out to be very true and way too concrete to be a mere guess or a prediction of a schizophrenic. My question then is how did he come up with the prophecy, with Hak dying (exactly what Yona saw in her dream before everything), with Kouka being in trouble in the future if Yona lives. He said it and it was all true. Who told him that if you don’t think it was the gods (who are literally a thing in their world).

Did Kashi also lie when she foretold Yona’s future? Or her own death? Who showed her that? Is she also then a schizophrenic? Idk maybe they’re all just a country of schizophrenics but we’re not talking about history or the real world but a fantasy shoujo world where a red-haired girl commanded superpowered boys with dragon body parts. Khm. Squirrels that battle bears (gaiden 3).

If that’s their reality then what why would there not be people other than the dragon warriors who can hear the voices of heavens? Especially if those gods are crazy evil shits with the mentality of toddlers?

Zeno could hear the voices of gods before. But as those gods went crazy that Hiryuu’s soul didn’t return to them, they abandoned him there all alone. It’s not Zeno’s fault he couldn’t hear their voices.

So theory time

If seriously, my intake is that the gods were doing everything they could to get Hiryuu back. Bruh they killed Hiryuu himself as they cursed him with the illness, and then his whole bloodline hoping it would lure him back. It didn’t work so what if they started sending certain people visions for that same aim - eventually get Hiryuu back. Look how it played out? I believe Kashi saw a vision of Soo-won killing Il (otherwise why would Il hate Soo-won since childhood), so Il hated Soo-won and was wary of Yuhon due to their conflict (again because of gods). Then Kashi saw Yona would die if she went with her to Yong-hi’s residence. Yona didn’t go and Kashi died. For that Il kills Yuhon. Then for that Soo-won indeed kills Il, tosses Yona out. Yona then magically survives and meets Ik-soo who is also aware of “gods will” and guides her on the path of Hiryuu. And then Yona herself starts getting visions which partially triggers Zeno to act, Yona has more visions and as a result ends up in the chalice where the gods capture her finally.

All that and also by the wish of “fate”, Yona also met Hak, an orphan out of nowhere that became the person that kept her alive her whole life (for the gods to have her alive and well when she gets to them).

Could sending certain people visions and letting them hear the gods have been all along a long-term evil plan of the trapped gods to get Hiryuu back? They were the ones sending people visions and speaking to them while being corrupted mastermind crackheads all along, so why not? (omg my brain is off now I was typing fast phew😮‍💨).

And it would be strange and illogical, why all the gods, every higher being was a Kouka-only-thing.

I don’t think gods are only a Kouka thing. I think that the whole thing with the dragon gods (king hiryuu and the dragon warriors) is not a continent-wide religion everyone is following but merely a legend inside of Kouka the majority of people didn’t even believe in. In Kai as we saw they have completely different legends (the magical lake for example). That is a legend of only Kai (as the lake is in Kai), and the Hiryuu one is only of Kouka (as Hiryuu was Kouka’s king).

No, because we got the confirmation later. But theoretically, we do not know, if somebody has visions or hears some strange god.

Since it is a personal experience. And I am arguing actually this point for a while now.

Did Kashi also lie when she foretold Yona’s future? Or her own death?

Since she wished likely for revenge, she could have changed some facts at least. It would make sense.

According to her own words, she cannot see her own future.

If she could see her future, she literally - canonically - had lied.

Is she also then a schizophrenic?

Do I know it?

If that’s their reality then what why would there not be people other than the dragon warriors who can hear the voices of heavens? Especially if those gods are crazy evil shits with the mentality of toddlers?

There might be, but apparently they had still no wish for further priests. This could be even the will of the gods. So it could be they stopped talking, after the last priests had burnt.

, they abandoned him there all alone. It’s not Zeno’s fault he couldn’t hear their voices.

Did they abandon him? The dragon god apparently walked with him all the time. So maybe nobody else dared to speak with Zeno.

Apparently he loved Zeno so much, that he just did not let him die. At least he did not wish to take anybody else like the other dragon gods. He could have taken another one after 2000 years honestly.

Bruh they killed Hiryuu himself as they cursed him with the illness,

My impression was, that Hiryuu did not perceive it as a curse, but rather he did not keep his promise to go back. They were his brothers and he loved them as much as the dragon warriors. When Yona appeared, he obviously tried to break with the dragon gods.

It didn’t work so what if they started sending certain people visions for that same aim - eventually get Hiryuu back.

The visions certainly worked as self-fulfilling prophecies. As everything that Soo Won concerned likely was an effect of fate.

Look how it played out? I believe Kashi saw a vision of Soo-won killing Il (otherwise why would Il hate Soo-won since childhood), so Il hated Soo-won and was wary of Yuhon due to their conflict (again because of gods).

Indeed. King Il told us in the letter, that he knew, that Soo Won would kill him at one point in time.

Then Kashi saw Yona would die if she went with her to Yong-hi’s residence. Yona didn’t go and Kashi died. For that Il kills Yuhon.

I wonder, if she did not provoke it. If she had truly seen it, she could have not gone at all. Or wishing for King Il to accompany her.

She was the only one, who did appear to be unhappy with Yona wishing for Soo Won to live. Even King Il, who had been killed by him, Yon hi and Yu hon faced her. Merely Kashi ran away from her daughter. This points to a deep-seated grudge.

Well, we likely will never see the solution to this. But I headcanon her to be the only one, not being able to go on in the afterlife, because she cannot forgive Soo Won for killing King Il and King Hiryuu.

Yona didn’t go and Kashi died. For that Il kills Yuhon. Then for that Soo-won indeed kills Il, tosses Yona out. Yona then magically survives and meets Ik-soo who is also aware of “gods will” and guides her on the path of Hiryuu. And then Yona herself starts getting visions which partially triggers Zeno to act, Yona has more visions and as a result ends up in the chalice where the gods capture her finally.

Yes, Yona had visions. I wonder, if either Zeno or Hiryuu had wished to make her see. For Zeno it would be rather bad, if she saw the dragon warriors before. But maybe he wished to be understood before he betrayed her.

Hiryuu would also be a possibility for the appearance of Yona´s visions, as he literally makes a promise with her. The cycle closes itself and the tragedy for Zeno and the dragon warriors happens. Hiryuu could not say anything to Zeno, since the dragon god would have listened to it.

All that and also by the wish of “fate”, Yona also met Hak, an orphan out of nowhere that became the person that kept her alive her whole life (for the gods to have her alive and well when she gets to them).

The prophecy is a vow. A promise, a binding contract that allowed the dragon gods some freedom.

They could break it in contrast to Zeno or the dragon warriors, who were unable to break it, even if they wished for it.

The dragon gods are brothers, comrades. They have likely no reference for "romantic love". A person that "sustains" the heart, therefore is a shield to them. Only in relation to Yona.

How about fate is nothing different than possible versions? The dragon gods thought about a plan how to keep Hiryuu safe by influencing the events that would lead to this vow.

Could sending certain people visions and letting them hear the gods have been all along a long-term evil plan of the trapped gods to get Hiryuu back?

Yeah but we’re reading a fantasy story where gods, inhuman powers and communication with them are very much real, that’s literally what the story’s plot is. So I’m not sure why even think if it is real there or not. In the story gods and magical powers are very real, it’s not something up to debate even😅

Do I know it?

Clearly there is no presence of schizophrenia neither in Kashi nor in anyone else in this story. But for some reason you’re doubting that and I’m fairly confused how you came to this conclusion😅 It’s not a story about massive schizophrenia. But anyway, not going to persuade you.

This could be even the will of the gods. So it could be they stopped talking, after the last priests had burnt.

Yeah exactly, could have been part of their plan too. After all, because Yuhon burnt the priests, he lost the throne, Il became king, and also him and Yuhon were in horribly bad terms (which plays a role in further murders).

My impression was, that Hiryuu did not perceive it as a curse

He may have not perceived it as such but technically it was curse, especially for his innocent descendants. Though I had the impression that it was after he died that his soul “didn’t go back to them”. He didn’t betray them while he was alive unless they had an arranged amount of years he’d live on earth.

I honestly don’t know what they were even thinking when making Hiryuu sick. They were so afraid of anything harming him that they even sent the dragon warriors to protect him. But in the end they themselves made him sick with a painful illness that killed him? I don’t know where’s the logic in this. And pardon me, why did they even make Zeno immortal if they wanted Hiryuu back asap? Why did they make the dragon warriors’ powers inheritable too? Was it all from the beginning their plan to manipulate him back? But if they were so evil from the beginning, why did they announce the prophecy and give him the sword and medallion? To protect him from themselves? I’m so confused about all that.

I wonder, if she did not provoke it. If she had truly seen it, she could have not gone at all. Or wishing for King Il to accompany her.

Right. Like if you know Yona would be killed/harmed if she went there, then logically something would happen. Why would she even go there if she knew something bad would happen? I wouldn’t be surprised about anything related to Kashi honestly, she’s such a dark horse in this whole story.

I pity her, she was miserable her whole short life. First because of Yuhon burning the priests she almost died and got her face badly burnt. Then got stuck in a loveless marriage with Il in total isolation, played the role as Yona’s mother as she said herself. Did she even ever love Yona I wonder? Maybe she actually knowingly let herself get killed for the future events to happen. Maybe she expected Yona to avenge her later? But when Yona instead was fighting for Soo-won and was kind to Hiyori, Kashi’s murderer…who knows. She was disappointed maybe. I think Il also expected Yona to avenge him, since he told Soo-won he’d be killed by Yona. But Il loved Yona so he didn’t “turn away from her” when she didn’t do it. Unlike Kashi. Idk tho.

Hardly all the visions in the world, but the one in Kouka? Could be.

The conclusion of this work is that the characters got rid of the very gods. Therefore it is very possible, if there is a priest, he has to help people without ever having visions, having less power than even Zeno. But maybe Iksoo is the last of it. Who knows?

Clearly there is no presence of schizophrenia neither in Kashi nor in anyone else in this story. But for some reason you’re doubting that and I’m fairly confused how you came to this conclusion😅 It’s not a story about massive schizophrenia. But anyway, not going to persuade you.

This world now appears not so much different from our own. As the gods said goodbye.

My point was solely, that it could be one reason for the visions some holy people could have seen in earlier times in our world. Even in our world there are lots of people who pretended (so have lied) or imagined (so maybe were having schizophrenic episodes) to have visions. Some even used drugs or were bitten by toxic snakes.

Especially in the past. A lot of these people are well-known for their good deeds. If this holy people now had actually a schizophrenic episode but still were able to commit great deeds. Who cares in the end?

I am actually arguing with you this very point. Zeno was a priest, because the people believed in him. Who cares if it was a lie or not? The effect is the determining factor. Similarily, like Yona´s rule is nice and sweet, but when she does have a bad effect, then all the legend is worth nothing.

He may have not perceived it as such but technically it was curse, especially for his innocent descendants. Though I had the impression that it was after he died that his soul “didn’t go back to them”. He didn’t betray them while he was alive unless they had an arranged amount of years he’d live on earth.

I doubt, that it actually started with Hiryuu. He was a single case. His children had all different hair colors. And Yaksi did not appear to be sick, actually.

The betrayal was that he did not go back. It appears, that this was some sort of promise between Hiryuu and the dragon gods.

Hiryuu said, the dragon gods should wait. So clearly, Hiryuu had wished to go back to them. It would explain, why they wished to have Yona hostage. Because it was a promise Hiryuu gave them. But Yona and Hiryuu were not the same people.

The descendants however have all blonde hair. Like the dragon warriors, it is a single hair color.

So there seemed to be another reason for it. For the Crimson Illness.

I honestly don’t know what they were even thinking when making Hiryuu sick. They were so afraid of anything harming him that they even sent the dragon warriors to protect him. But in the end they themselves made him sick with a painful illness that killed him?

Death in a religious context is going from one world to the next. Heaven is a place of solace, freedom and care. From my belief, Christianity, going to heaven means going home (Like Zeno expressed it.)

(Whenever somebody died in our religion/belief, we expressed it like this: She or he went home to god.)

Dying is not the end. The people are merely "sleeping" like it was remarked for Hiryuu until they awake. In the other world. A true believer (like Zeno) won´t fear death, but wish for it.

From the way it was expressed, that Hiryuu was asleep, it appeared people expected that he would wake up one day.

This is what Zeno discovered down in the mausoleum. King Hiryuu has been nothing but a corpse. He is not anymore. There was no sleep.

Because even when he came back, it was Yona, not Hiryuu.

For the dragon gods Hiryuu was basically on vacation until he would come back to them. For them a human life, I mean the period of the life, is nothing.

However, Hiryuu did not come back. That is the betrayal. He ceased to exist. Yona took his place.

I don’t know where’s the logic in this. And pardon me, why did they even make Zeno immortal if they wanted Hiryuu back asap? Why did they make the dragon warriors’ powers inheritable too? Was it all from the beginning their plan to manipulate him back?

What do you mean with "inheritable"? The dragon warriors´s powers were inherited. Whe whole village descended from the first dragon warrior.

Zeno was the key that broke the camel´s back. Hiryuu recognized that Zeno would one day be the reason, why the dragon gods would die.

That is likely the reason he pointed a sword towards him.

Zeno was a strong believer in the gods, in their cause. But 2000 years completely changed this. Especially since Yona was not the person, he thought would come. (Zeno used to be like the shinto priests, after all. A true believer.)

The original dragon gods, the one, who did use their marbles were most likely able to see the the faraway future. Even Soo Won´s and Hak´s birth and even that Hiryuu would not come back to them.

Therefore Hiryuu received the prophecy, when he did not come back, after human beings had captured him. The dragon gods knew it, even though they did not wish for it.

Because the dragon gods with their brains intact and the crazy ones we experienced were completely different. The dragon gods intended to die. They did not wish to live without Hiryuu likely. And they wished to make his wish come true.

This story is structured in the two parts, I call "construction" and "deconstruction".

I pity her, she was miserable her whole short life. First because of Yuhon burning the priests she almost died and got her face badly burnt. Then got stuck in a loveless marriage with Il in total isolation, played the role as Yona’s mother as she said herself.

I know, this sounds strange. But Kashi most likely loved King Il enourmously. Her reason for hating Soo Won is most likely because of the murder. Even if she voiced it like this. She wished to be his wife. This would be logical. You just have to see her face, when she looks at Il, when she was a shrine maiden.

Maybe she actually knowingly let herself get killed for the future events to happen. Maybe she expected Yona to avenge her later?

Yes, she appeared to believe in fate. As strong as Zeno used to believe in fate. The priests, who are able to see the gods, or hear them, would perceive their lives as a martyr would.

They would die for a just cause. In this story however in vain.

Maybe she expected Yona to avenge her later? But when Yona instead was fighting for Soo-won and was kind to Hiyori, Kashi’s murderer…who knows. She was disappointed maybe. I think Il also expected Yona to avenge him, since he told Soo-won he’d be killed by Yona. But Il loved Yona so he didn’t “turn away from her” when she didn’t do it. Unlike Kashi. Idk tho.

In our world anything could be, and many more. I wouldn’t be surprised about anything tbh.

I’m just confused why you even compared all that to the priests in the manga who had nothing to do with any of that, and seemed to doubt Iksoo’s and Kashi’s powers or honesty or mental state when that’s like absolutely not the case😅. But anyway let’s drop that, maybe I misunderstood u.

I am actually arguing with you this very point. Zeno was a priest, because the people believed in him. Who cares if it was a lie or not? The effect is the determining factor.

I genuinely had no idea that “playing priest” would be a trigger. I was just being a nerd trying to be close to the lore of the story. As in the story I saw that Kouka’s priests tended to be highly spiritual people that were closer to the gods than other people, I thought it would be right to say that Zeno who couldn’t do it (anymore) but was pretending for 20 years that he could, was more acting a role for the sake of people rather than being a priest because he believed he was one.

True priests also tend to have absolute love for the gods they pray to and absolute faith that gods’ will is sacred and is for the good of humanity. In Zeno’s case who already then knew the gods condemned him to a terrible immortal fate, knew that they were silent to his pleas and never intended to protect Hiryuu’s country or its people, Im not sure of his absolute love or faith in them. He did not yet hate them but I don’t believe he was a devoted religious believer either.

The one Zeno truly loved was king Hiryuu, he wanted to follow his path and protect the people he loved but for me it’s different from being a priest devoted to the dragon gods.

I doubt, that it actually started with Hiryuu. He was a single case. His children had all different hair colors. And Yaksi did not appear to be sick, actually.

I’m not sure about that. We saw Yaksi when he was very young, he could’ve died from the illness when he was older. As far as I understood the decedents mostly became sick middle-aged or old even (Yong-hi’s mother was quite old when she died and not even from the illness).

So as it was Hiryuu’s blood that was cursed, everyone carrying it must have been sick.

But while the blond family line was intentionally preserving their bloodline, the others it seems weren’t. In 2000 years, from wars or the illness itself they just perished, while one line remained.

That was my theory but not like we’ll ever get more info on what really happened😓

I know, this sounds strange. But Kashi most likely loved King Il enourmously. Her reason for hating Soo Won is most likely because of the murder. Even if she voiced it like this. She wished to be his wife. This would be logical. You just have to see her face, when she looks at Il, when she was a shrine maiden.

By loveless marriage I meant that Kashi didn’t know if Il ever loved her. She believed it was only because they had Yona the new crimson dragon.

I do think you’re right that maybe Kashi liked Il before the priests were burnt. But the primary reason for their marriage was her feeling that their child will be a new Hiryuu. For Il that was pure joy. I think she may have wanted that too as she was a priestess but maybe secretly wished for Il to love her too. But she never felt that after all, Il didn’t show it to her even though we find out that he did love her. Sad. Il loved her certainly, as someone like him went into flames for her.

The conclusion would be then, that Kashi loved Yona less than King Il did?

It is sometimes hard to bring a point across. Maybe because of the language barrier? Or maybe I have not found the right arguments.

I am actually just wish to convey, that we do not know him - the priest.

We do not know, what a priest in our world thinks. If he even believes, if his belief is an effect of a sickness, of drug use, if he has doubts in general or in certain points.

To think that faith is absolute, would be horrifying. It has been horrifying. I stared my whole life at this absolute "great priests" in my belief, because they pretended to have never any doubts. To not see the injustices. It was like this and I should swallow it wholly and it horrified me.

We do not know the priest himself - at all. Usually and if he performs his role. And it is always a role. We all "act" in a certain way, when we "work".

So we all "play a role", because we wish to fulfill a function. And the function can be also "a priest". Maybe you mean it in a different way, and I am honestly too sensitive here. If so, I am truly sorry. In every case, it was not my intention to attack you.

Would have done Zeno anything differently, if he had talked with one of the present gods? Most likely, he would have most likely lost his belief earlier and had been paralysed. Kouka might have died, before it even got the chance to grow. His belief and wish to belong got him further and allowed this young country to live.

Personally i do believe, that Zeno rescued the country in its earlier stages. As small children as heirs usually mean the decline of the country. No strong unifying force enables people, who had always a desire for power. As we could see with King Il and Soo Jin.

Has Zeno really ruled? Most likely not directly. But he gave them belief. fate. In a crisis. It was the certainty that they would survive. And this lie helped them to go the first few steps.

What does a little lie mean in the face of the possibility that everything might have been ruined?

I’m not sure about that. We saw Yaksi when he was very young, he could’ve died from the illness when he was older. As far as I understood the decedents mostly became sick middle-aged or old even (Yong-hi’s mother was quite old when she died and not even from the illness). So as it was Hiryuu’s blood that was cursed, everyone carrying it must have been sick. But while the blond family line was intentionally preserving their bloodline, the others it seems weren’t. In 2000 years, from wars or the illness itself they just perished, while one line remained. That was my theory but not like we’ll ever get more info on what really happened😓

It would depend, what you understand as young. In the picture, we see him last, this guy must be about 30-34 years old. When his father died, he appeared to be about at least 10 years old, if not as old as Yoon so about 13-14 years old. Zeno had already served as a priest for 20 years during this time in point.

Yon hi got sick at about 36 years old. It would be not unrealistic for a person to have been sick.

How could people, even more people who lose their lives soon "preserve" their line? And not everybody got sick. Only about 50 % get the Crimson Illness. The rest has normal life spans.

Zeno explained that magical blood had its price. So is the question: For what did the descendants pay? Why had all descendants blonde hair? It does not make much sense. The descendants look like they are actually Zeno´s kin and not Hiryuu´s.

In fact we do not hear from any other people who have this. Only one line appears.

The others have either died out or they just do not have the Crimson Illness, because the Illness does have a function after all.

Everything appears to be "fate" in this manga. So we could conclude that the dragon gods - like in the case of the dragon warriors - preserved the village. Because from this village would come the "Sword".

It is at least likely.

By loveless marriage I meant that Kashi didn’t know if Il ever loved her. She believed it was only because they had Yona the new crimson dragon.

It is another great example of the tendency to not tell other people their true feelings.

Hak, Yona and Soo Won are also great at this. But they got better at least.

I do think you’re right that maybe Kashi liked Il before the priests were burnt. But the primary reason for their marriage was her feeling that their child will be a new Hiryuu. For Il that was pure joy. I think she may have wanted that too as she was a priestess but maybe secretly wished for Il to love her too.

Indeed. Because she believed maybe she was not important enough. After all, she also was a commoner like Yon hi. And King Il was too preoccupied with raising King Hiryuu´s reincarnation.

Sad. Il loved her certainly, as someone like him went into flames for her.

Yes, Hak has been right after all. King Il was not a coward, if people he loved were in danger. Just like with Yona, when he prevented Tae Jun from harming Hak and Yona.

I’m unsure if Kashi loved Yona at all while Il absolutely did. Like I said Kashi is one of the most mysterious, unexplained characters so I wouldn’t be surprised. Something has to explain why she turned away from Yona when she was calling out to her. Il looked at her even though Yona didn’t kill Soo-won (like he may have wanted) but Kashi didn’t budge.

That is, what I don´t really know at all. Yona has - of course - a very positive understanding of the situation. But it appears so naive.

What I can say for sure is that we can’t say anything for sure about the descendants, we don’t have practically any info about them.

Hiryuu had five children but we don’t know if all of those five children had children of their own or in later generations. And again, in 2000 years some lines could have perished due to an only child dying in war, accident, or the crimson illness. Or maybe someone left Kouka at all. We don’t know what happened later in the years.

Also Hiryuu’s decedents we’re not ruling forever too, centuries ago Il and Yuhon’s ancestors took away the throne from them and I reckon it was a bloody battle. So no wonder there’s not much of the decedents left.

From the way Soo-won looks having a father like Yuhon, I’d say the blond gene is extremely dominant in Hiryuu’s decedents. So that could also explain why they’re all blond now.

What we know is that what remained of Hiryuu’s decedents (so the blond ones ig) formed a clan and intentionally were preserving their blood because they all believed it was sacred or was meant for something (don’t remember what they believed there exactly).

Some info is there and what is even more interesting. Some interesting analogies exist.

Hiryuu had five children but we don’t know if all of those five children had children of their own or in later generations. And again, in 2000 years some lines could have perished due to an only child dying in war, accident, or the crimson illness. Or maybe someone left Kouka at all. We don’t know what happened later in the years.

We actually don´t know, if all the children had the Crimson Illness. It is still funny, how Hiryuu´s children all had different hair colors and the descendant merely one - only blonde.

So who was their descendant? Who was responsible for the blonde hair color?

Well, Mei Nyan´s father left Kouka for the Kai Empire. I also wonder, why merely 50 % died. If the dragon gods had wished to kill them really off, it would have been better, if all of them had contracted the Illness.

The question would be, what was the condition for the Crimson Illness to appear? It was a "magical Illness".

Soo Won was one of them and he was part of the vow/prophecy. So we can conclude, that the descendants were preserved, so that one of the would become "the Sword".

Also Hiryuu’s decedents we’re not ruling forever too, centuries ago Il and Yuhon’s ancestors took away the throne from them and I reckon it was a bloody battle. So no wonder there’s not much of the decedents left.

It appeared that the ruling family/tribe changed quite often...So it is likely that not only the Fire Tribe/Sky Tribe, but Wind Tribe, Water Tribe and Earth Tribe ruled also some time.

Though instead of dying out...Could you discern a descendant from a normal human being without the Crimson Illness? If merely one line gets sick and the others are healthy, nobody would know, who they were.

Besides, Yaksi did not appear to be a especially strong king. So if they were not quite the rulers, would have anybody believed that they were descendants from Hiryuu? Neither of his children did appear to look especially like him. And if they resembled Hiryuu a little in character they might have not wished that people use their name.

How many people would have loved to take advantage of their heritage. Especially since they were 4 sons...ect.

From the way Soo-won looks having a father like Yuhon, I’d say the blond gene is extremely dominant in Hiryuu’s decedents. So that could also explain why they’re all blond now.

it is not just "extreme dominant". There is no descendant with another hair color as blonde.

Just like the villages of the dragon warriors. They, too, had only one hair color.

What we know is that what remained of Hiryuu’s decedents (so the blond ones ig) formed a clan and intentionally were preserving their blood because they all believed it was sacred or was meant for something (don’t remember what they believed there exactly).

The dragon gods preserved the line, as people who die soon have the tendency to die out soon. But you are right, that they considered the very illness as sacred.

There is no power this blood has, Zeno was talking about the dragon powers when talking about price.

I wonder, if this is true. Maybe it was something we did not quite consider as power.

What remains as fact though, is that it was mentioned twice, that Soo Won´s fate and the dragon warriors resemble each other, therefore one could form theories in that direction.

It is more known about the dragon warriors fate and also about how the dragon gods act.

Hiryuu though just like the decedents was mere human. But he became one against the wish of the heaves, that’s what Zeno tells Soo-won.

I wonder, if Zeno was 100 % truthful here. The descendants were "mere humans" but not completely. i wonder, how often this sentence has been used in relation to Yona? She is only a human being. Sure - only one with a strong magical bond and a ton of power.

And Soo-won then remembers that in his mothers diary it was written that the crimson illness was a way gods called Hiryuu back to heavens. As the illness activated through blood, the blood relatives of Hiryuu also got it. That’s all we know.

@matcha-chai-latte

While he was “playing” priest, he never heard the gods while telling everyone heavens are protecting them. Not then and not ever since, until he slit his throat in the mausoleum.

Maybe it helps, if I mention, that we literally not know from a priest or another religious leader if he actually has this holy connection or not.

Yes, Zeno lied and it was even a lie that he held towards himself and not only the others.

Because Zeno even believed he would act like King Hiryuu had wished for. But the funny thing is, that Hiryuu told him for 10-16 years that Zeno won´t fight. And Zeno did fight.

Zeno made this decisions thinking it might be the will of Hiryuu, his father, his god, but actually they were his own decisions.

And even the text tells us this:

"I don´t want the people to get hurt".

"That is King Hiryuu´s wish".

he declared then. But it was Zeno´s decision to follow in King Hiryuu´s footsteps.

Just like Soo Won, who had believed to have replaced his father:

Soo Won literally believed to need to replace his father.

And he also lied and killed people.

However, the people do not care, because it depends on the effect.

Would the people really be so disappointed, if they heard, that Zeno had protected them for 20 years mostly alone?

Hell no! Because effectively Zeno protected them.

If it was a god, or the teletubbies, who cares at the end?

If this guy still could still hear the voice of the gods a little bit?

Really, had Gobi a holy connection to the gods? Nobody can prove it.

Ik soo helped the people, if he had this power or not. The people literally don´t know, that he is a priest. And so did Zeno helpe the people with or without his godly power.

We’re talking about a fantasy world so pretty much their priests are different from real ones.

Im just saying that it seems the priests Kouka had tended to have some “connection” with the gods, had visions, heard their voices, could convey the “will of the gods” etc. So that’s a specific common trait of priests in Kouka. Zeno is sure not “unrelated” to the gods but if he didn’t have any connection with them, then he was not truly a priest. His intention was to keep people in the castle from panicking about the dragons leaving them, not to be a real priest for itself.

Zeno tells the people Hiryuu’s medallion is a relic from the heavens (that connects him to the gods) and he will be now conveying the will of the heavens to them all. That’s why they accepted him as their priest. In reality though he was never hearing any gods and could never convey anything. If he was not acting for their sake, then I don’t know what he was doing. I don’t know how else to explain😅

Why? Who could prove this, if they heard the gods or not? Visions or hearing the gods was a personal experience. In a fantasy world or not.

If they had actually heard it, imagined it (like Joan D´Arc) or lied about it? Who could literally prove it?

Nobody.

Im just saying that it seems the priests Kouka had tended to have some “connection” with the gods, had visions, heard their voices, could convey the “will of the gods” etc. So that’s a specific common trait of priests in Kouka. Zeno is sure not “unrelated” to the gods but if he didn’t have any connection with them, then he was not truly a priest. His intention was to keep people in the castle from panicking about the dragons leaving them, not to be a real priest for itself.

The people believed in him, therefore he was a priest.

Zeno tells the people Hiryuu’s medallion is a relic from the heavens (that connects him to the gods) and he will be now conveying the will of the heavens to them all.

In a way, he might have believed this, too. After all, he believed he would do, what King Hiryuu had wanted. So he had conveyed the King´s will.

But it did not actually matter.

The dragon gods were only specifically related to Kouka and Gobi is not from Kouka, so I’d bet he didn’t hear shit.

We saw Ik-soo conveying the will of the gods to Yona? Not just the prophecy, he said Hak could die without the dragons, which ties to what Yona saw in her dream when she was 14-15. Said that Yona’s life will lead to Kouka “rumbling”. And clearly knew who the “sword and shield” were, said they’re not yet ready. Wasn’t birds that chirped him all that in the ear.

Kashi and Yona could see the future sent by divine forces. The past priest instantly felt Yong-hi’s blood was Hiryuu’s, and clearly as he was the main priest, that was far from the only thing he could do, either Iksoo or Kashi said he taught them a lot. Imo clearly they were not hanging out in temples for nothing. They could definitely see and feel things others couldn’t.

Zeno like I said is no ordinary ofc, as a dragon he could also “feel” things but again, ever since he became a dragon warrior, he did not hear neither voices nor have visions or whatever. The gods became silent to him.

In a way, he might have believed this, too.

Yes, could be. I think he was definitely trying to call out to them but with no avail. Just like we saw him do when Kaya was dying.

Who knows?

He glasped the hands together and then was speaking rashly this words. It could have been true or not true.

If Zeno had not heard this vow already, we would be unsure, if he had been spoken the truth or not.

Not just the prophecy, he said Hak could die without the dragons, which ties to what Yona saw in her dream when she was 14-15.

Yona does not remember this, though. He could have also invented something and nobody would have known. Could have hardly known that Zeno is immortal.

Like this you do -usually - not know, if the priest said the truth or not.

Said that Yona’s life will lead to Kouka “rumbling”. And clearly knew who the “sword and shield” were, said they’re not yet ready. Wasn’t birds that chirped him all that in the ear.

Do we know it? Francis of Assis could talk with birds, if I remember correctly.

Did he know it or not? Have the "gods", whoever they were - if the dragon gods or other "higher entities"- really told him more? Merely from the words he spoke, you could hardly derive this.

So he could be really just some mediator, who spoke the words he heard directly or not. I also wonder about your interpretation, as if would imply, he would be alright with "forgiving" Soo Won, who was the son of Yu hon. The very person, who had nearly killed all the people.

I also wonder, how Iksoo has survive. King Il was shown merely to carry Kashi out. Where was Iksoo when everything started? How was he able to survive? Was there really just the headpriest, Iksoo and Kashi in the whole temple?

Kashi and Yona could see the future sent by divine forces. The past priest instantly felt Yong-hi’s blood was Hiryuu’s, and clearly as he was the main priest, that was far from the only thing he could do,

They were intuitive people. Some people feel a little more. It is a knowledge, that is not entirely explored.

About the headpriest...We literally don´t know it. Zeno was also headpriest with 0 power in that direction. It can work.

But in theory you could be schizophrenic and hear voices and be persuaded you heard the voice of the gods. How do we know, if Joan D´Arc really heard the voice of god, when she believed she was chosen to rescue France? Would that have made her somehow worse, if she had been a little bit crazy or even lied?

She was still so succesful, that a couple of men decided they wished to eliminate her. Due to her influence. Fate can have an amazing power. Self-fulfilling prophecies exist.

I have known a woman, who was convinced that angels were speaking with her. I could hardly disprove her, right?

Imo clearly they were not hanging out in temples for nothing. They could definitely see and feel things others couldn’t.

The most prominent example for a priest in that series hanged out in a temple without having any power.

Kashi wished for the strange dreams, for her intuition to have some deeper meaning. She saw some scenes and in Yona´s case it did not even come true. Zeno did not have the heart to kill Hak. And I doubt this guy would have ever had the heart to kill them.

The mangaka had confirmed, that when Zeno had transformed and he tried to threathen them, had tried to push them to a safer place. So that they would not be buried under the rubble.

So what did Yona actually see? The future or pictures contorted by her fear?

That the dragon gods were only related to Kouka or that Gobi couldn’t hear them? I’d say it’s logical since Gobi himself is unrelated to Kouka and the gods are very much only related to Kouka.

Both. We saw in that strange light at the lake even gods or higher beings from other parts of the world. And it would be strange and illogical, why all the gods, every higher being was a Kouka-only-thing.

Besides if Gobi could hear gods or not, we would not know again. Not all of this beings have to be "good", after all.

That reminds me of the stormlight series, where Dalinar believed to hear god. However it was merely a spirit he heard. And a memento of a god, who used to be just a simple human being.

Or even of Berserk, who appears to be a progenitor of this work. There gods and devils are basically the same.

I don’t think he ever claimed anything like that either unless I forgot it. If he said so then who knows but I don’t remember him having any special intuition or anything. He was just a freaky prick.

Oh. So you actually think he lied? Can’t help that I guess.

However as we saw his information turned out to be very true and way too concrete to be a mere guess or a prediction of a schizophrenic. My question then is how did he come up with the prophecy, with Hak dying (exactly what Yona saw in her dream before everything), with Kouka being in trouble in the future if Yona lives. He said it and it was all true. Who told him that if you don’t think it was the gods (who are literally a thing in their world).

Did Kashi also lie when she foretold Yona’s future? Or her own death? Who showed her that? Is she also then a schizophrenic? Idk maybe they’re all just a country of schizophrenics but we’re not talking about history or the real world but a fantasy shoujo world where a red-haired girl commanded superpowered boys with dragon body parts. Khm. Squirrels that battle bears (gaiden 3).

If that’s their reality then what why would there not be people other than the dragon warriors who can hear the voices of heavens? Especially if those gods are crazy evil shits with the mentality of toddlers?

Zeno could hear the voices of gods before. But as those gods went crazy that Hiryuu’s soul didn’t return to them, they abandoned him there all alone. It’s not Zeno’s fault he couldn’t hear their voices.

So theory time

If seriously, my intake is that the gods were doing everything they could to get Hiryuu back. Bruh they killed Hiryuu himself as they cursed him with the illness, and then his whole bloodline hoping it would lure him back. It didn’t work so what if they started sending certain people visions for that same aim - eventually get Hiryuu back. Look how it played out? I believe Kashi saw a vision of Soo-won killing Il (otherwise why would Il hate Soo-won since childhood), so Il hated Soo-won and was wary of Yuhon due to their conflict (again because of gods). Then Kashi saw Yona would die if she went with her to Yong-hi’s residence. Yona didn’t go and Kashi died. For that Il kills Yuhon. Then for that Soo-won indeed kills Il, tosses Yona out. Yona then magically survives and meets Ik-soo who is also aware of “gods will” and guides her on the path of Hiryuu. And then Yona herself starts getting visions which partially triggers Zeno to act, Yona has more visions and as a result ends up in the chalice where the gods capture her finally.

All that and also by the wish of “fate”, Yona also met Hak, an orphan out of nowhere that became the person that kept her alive her whole life (for the gods to have her alive and well when she gets to them).

Could sending certain people visions and letting them hear the gods have been all along a long-term evil plan of the trapped gods to get Hiryuu back? They were the ones sending people visions and speaking to them while being corrupted mastermind crackheads all along, so why not? (omg my brain is off now I was typing fast phew😮‍💨).

And it would be strange and illogical, why all the gods, every higher being was a Kouka-only-thing.

I don’t think gods are only a Kouka thing. I think that the whole thing with the dragon gods (king hiryuu and the dragon warriors) is not a continent-wide religion everyone is following but merely a legend inside of Kouka the majority of people didn’t even believe in. In Kai as we saw they have completely different legends (the magical lake for example). That is a legend of only Kai (as the lake is in Kai), and the Hiryuu one is only of Kouka (as Hiryuu was Kouka’s king).

No, because we got the confirmation later. But theoretically, we do not know, if somebody has visions or hears some strange god.

Since it is a personal experience. And I am arguing actually this point for a while now.

Did Kashi also lie when she foretold Yona’s future? Or her own death?

Since she wished likely for revenge, she could have changed some facts at least. It would make sense.

According to her own words, she cannot see her own future.

If she could see her future, she literally - canonically - had lied.

Is she also then a schizophrenic?

Do I know it?

If that’s their reality then what why would there not be people other than the dragon warriors who can hear the voices of heavens? Especially if those gods are crazy evil shits with the mentality of toddlers?

There might be, but apparently they had still no wish for further priests. This could be even the will of the gods. So it could be they stopped talking, after the last priests had burnt.

, they abandoned him there all alone. It’s not Zeno’s fault he couldn’t hear their voices.

Did they abandon him? The dragon god apparently walked with him all the time. So maybe nobody else dared to speak with Zeno.

Apparently he loved Zeno so much, that he just did not let him die. At least he did not wish to take anybody else like the other dragon gods. He could have taken another one after 2000 years honestly.

Bruh they killed Hiryuu himself as they cursed him with the illness,

My impression was, that Hiryuu did not perceive it as a curse, but rather he did not keep his promise to go back. They were his brothers and he loved them as much as the dragon warriors. When Yona appeared, he obviously tried to break with the dragon gods.

It didn’t work so what if they started sending certain people visions for that same aim - eventually get Hiryuu back.

The visions certainly worked as self-fulfilling prophecies. As everything that Soo Won concerned likely was an effect of fate.

Look how it played out? I believe Kashi saw a vision of Soo-won killing Il (otherwise why would Il hate Soo-won since childhood), so Il hated Soo-won and was wary of Yuhon due to their conflict (again because of gods).

Indeed. King Il told us in the letter, that he knew, that Soo Won would kill him at one point in time.

Then Kashi saw Yona would die if she went with her to Yong-hi’s residence. Yona didn’t go and Kashi died. For that Il kills Yuhon.

I wonder, if she did not provoke it. If she had truly seen it, she could have not gone at all. Or wishing for King Il to accompany her.

She was the only one, who did appear to be unhappy with Yona wishing for Soo Won to live. Even King Il, who had been killed by him, Yon hi and Yu hon faced her. Merely Kashi ran away from her daughter. This points to a deep-seated grudge.

Well, we likely will never see the solution to this. But I headcanon her to be the only one, not being able to go on in the afterlife, because she cannot forgive Soo Won for killing King Il and King Hiryuu.

Yona didn’t go and Kashi died. For that Il kills Yuhon. Then for that Soo-won indeed kills Il, tosses Yona out. Yona then magically survives and meets Ik-soo who is also aware of “gods will” and guides her on the path of Hiryuu. And then Yona herself starts getting visions which partially triggers Zeno to act, Yona has more visions and as a result ends up in the chalice where the gods capture her finally.

Yes, Yona had visions. I wonder, if either Zeno or Hiryuu had wished to make her see. For Zeno it would be rather bad, if she saw the dragon warriors before. But maybe he wished to be understood before he betrayed her.

Hiryuu would also be a possibility for the appearance of Yona´s visions, as he literally makes a promise with her. The cycle closes itself and the tragedy for Zeno and the dragon warriors happens. Hiryuu could not say anything to Zeno, since the dragon god would have listened to it.

All that and also by the wish of “fate”, Yona also met Hak, an orphan out of nowhere that became the person that kept her alive her whole life (for the gods to have her alive and well when she gets to them).

The prophecy is a vow. A promise, a binding contract that allowed the dragon gods some freedom.

They could break it in contrast to Zeno or the dragon warriors, who were unable to break it, even if they wished for it.

The dragon gods are brothers, comrades. They have likely no reference for "romantic love". A person that "sustains" the heart, therefore is a shield to them. Only in relation to Yona.

How about fate is nothing different than possible versions? The dragon gods thought about a plan how to keep Hiryuu safe by influencing the events that would lead to this vow.

Could sending certain people visions and letting them hear the gods have been all along a long-term evil plan of the trapped gods to get Hiryuu back?

Yeah but we’re reading a fantasy story where gods, inhuman powers and communication with them are very much real, that’s literally what the story’s plot is. So I’m not sure why even think if it is real there or not. In the story gods and magical powers are very real, it’s not something up to debate even😅

Do I know it?

Clearly there is no presence of schizophrenia neither in Kashi nor in anyone else in this story. But for some reason you’re doubting that and I’m fairly confused how you came to this conclusion😅 It’s not a story about massive schizophrenia. But anyway, not going to persuade you.

This could be even the will of the gods. So it could be they stopped talking, after the last priests had burnt.

Yeah exactly, could have been part of their plan too. After all, because Yuhon burnt the priests, he lost the throne, Il became king, and also him and Yuhon were in horribly bad terms (which plays a role in further murders).

My impression was, that Hiryuu did not perceive it as a curse

He may have not perceived it as such but technically it was curse, especially for his innocent descendants. Though I had the impression that it was after he died that his soul “didn’t go back to them”. He didn’t betray them while he was alive unless they had an arranged amount of years he’d live on earth.

I honestly don’t know what they were even thinking when making Hiryuu sick. They were so afraid of anything harming him that they even sent the dragon warriors to protect him. But in the end they themselves made him sick with a painful illness that killed him? I don’t know where’s the logic in this. And pardon me, why did they even make Zeno immortal if they wanted Hiryuu back asap? Why did they make the dragon warriors’ powers inheritable too? Was it all from the beginning their plan to manipulate him back? But if they were so evil from the beginning, why did they announce the prophecy and give him the sword and medallion? To protect him from themselves? I’m so confused about all that.

I wonder, if she did not provoke it. If she had truly seen it, she could have not gone at all. Or wishing for King Il to accompany her.

Right. Like if you know Yona would be killed/harmed if she went there, then logically something would happen. Why would she even go there if she knew something bad would happen? I wouldn’t be surprised about anything related to Kashi honestly, she’s such a dark horse in this whole story.

I pity her, she was miserable her whole short life. First because of Yuhon burning the priests she almost died and got her face badly burnt. Then got stuck in a loveless marriage with Il in total isolation, played the role as Yona’s mother as she said herself. Did she even ever love Yona I wonder? Maybe she actually knowingly let herself get killed for the future events to happen. Maybe she expected Yona to avenge her later? But when Yona instead was fighting for Soo-won and was kind to Hiyori, Kashi’s murderer…who knows. She was disappointed maybe. I think Il also expected Yona to avenge him, since he told Soo-won he’d be killed by Yona. But Il loved Yona so he didn’t “turn away from her” when she didn’t do it. Unlike Kashi. Idk tho.

Hardly all the visions in the world, but the one in Kouka? Could be.

The conclusion of this work is that the characters got rid of the very gods. Therefore it is very possible, if there is a priest, he has to help people without ever having visions, having less power than even Zeno. But maybe Iksoo is the last of it. Who knows?

Clearly there is no presence of schizophrenia neither in Kashi nor in anyone else in this story. But for some reason you’re doubting that and I’m fairly confused how you came to this conclusion😅 It’s not a story about massive schizophrenia. But anyway, not going to persuade you.

This world now appears not so much different from our own. As the gods said goodbye.

My point was solely, that it could be one reason for the visions some holy people could have seen in earlier times in our world. Even in our world there are lots of people who pretended (so have lied) or imagined (so maybe were having schizophrenic episodes) to have visions. Some even used drugs or were bitten by toxic snakes.

Especially in the past. A lot of these people are well-known for their good deeds. If this holy people now had actually a schizophrenic episode but still were able to commit great deeds. Who cares in the end?

I am actually arguing with you this very point. Zeno was a priest, because the people believed in him. Who cares if it was a lie or not? The effect is the determining factor. Similarily, like Yona´s rule is nice and sweet, but when she does have a bad effect, then all the legend is worth nothing.

He may have not perceived it as such but technically it was curse, especially for his innocent descendants. Though I had the impression that it was after he died that his soul “didn’t go back to them”. He didn’t betray them while he was alive unless they had an arranged amount of years he’d live on earth.

I doubt, that it actually started with Hiryuu. He was a single case. His children had all different hair colors. And Yaksi did not appear to be sick, actually.

The betrayal was that he did not go back. It appears, that this was some sort of promise between Hiryuu and the dragon gods.

Hiryuu said, the dragon gods should wait. So clearly, Hiryuu had wished to go back to them. It would explain, why they wished to have Yona hostage. Because it was a promise Hiryuu gave them. But Yona and Hiryuu were not the same people.

The descendants however have all blonde hair. Like the dragon warriors, it is a single hair color.

So there seemed to be another reason for it. For the Crimson Illness.

I honestly don’t know what they were even thinking when making Hiryuu sick. They were so afraid of anything harming him that they even sent the dragon warriors to protect him. But in the end they themselves made him sick with a painful illness that killed him?

Death in a religious context is going from one world to the next. Heaven is a place of solace, freedom and care. From my belief, Christianity, going to heaven means going home (Like Zeno expressed it.)

(Whenever somebody died in our religion/belief, we expressed it like this: She or he went home to god.)

Dying is not the end. The people are merely "sleeping" like it was remarked for Hiryuu until they awake. In the other world. A true believer (like Zeno) won´t fear death, but wish for it.

From the way it was expressed, that Hiryuu was asleep, it appeared people expected that he would wake up one day.

This is what Zeno discovered down in the mausoleum. King Hiryuu has been nothing but a corpse. He is not anymore. There was no sleep.

Because even when he came back, it was Yona, not Hiryuu.

For the dragon gods Hiryuu was basically on vacation until he would come back to them. For them a human life, I mean the period of the life, is nothing.

However, Hiryuu did not come back. That is the betrayal. He ceased to exist. Yona took his place.

I don’t know where’s the logic in this. And pardon me, why did they even make Zeno immortal if they wanted Hiryuu back asap? Why did they make the dragon warriors’ powers inheritable too? Was it all from the beginning their plan to manipulate him back?

What do you mean with "inheritable"? The dragon warriors´s powers were inherited. Whe whole village descended from the first dragon warrior.

Zeno was the key that broke the camel´s back. Hiryuu recognized that Zeno would one day be the reason, why the dragon gods would die.

That is likely the reason he pointed a sword towards him.

Zeno was a strong believer in the gods, in their cause. But 2000 years completely changed this. Especially since Yona was not the person, he thought would come. (Zeno used to be like the shinto priests, after all. A true believer.)

The original dragon gods, the one, who did use their marbles were most likely able to see the the faraway future. Even Soo Won´s and Hak´s birth and even that Hiryuu would not come back to them.

Therefore Hiryuu received the prophecy, when he did not come back, after human beings had captured him. The dragon gods knew it, even though they did not wish for it.

Because the dragon gods with their brains intact and the crazy ones we experienced were completely different. The dragon gods intended to die. They did not wish to live without Hiryuu likely. And they wished to make his wish come true.

This story is structured in the two parts, I call "construction" and "deconstruction".

I pity her, she was miserable her whole short life. First because of Yuhon burning the priests she almost died and got her face badly burnt. Then got stuck in a loveless marriage with Il in total isolation, played the role as Yona’s mother as she said herself.

I know, this sounds strange. But Kashi most likely loved King Il enourmously. Her reason for hating Soo Won is most likely because of the murder. Even if she voiced it like this. She wished to be his wife. This would be logical. You just have to see her face, when she looks at Il, when she was a shrine maiden.

Maybe she actually knowingly let herself get killed for the future events to happen. Maybe she expected Yona to avenge her later?

Yes, she appeared to believe in fate. As strong as Zeno used to believe in fate. The priests, who are able to see the gods, or hear them, would perceive their lives as a martyr would.

They would die for a just cause. In this story however in vain.

Maybe she expected Yona to avenge her later? But when Yona instead was fighting for Soo-won and was kind to Hiyori, Kashi’s murderer…who knows. She was disappointed maybe. I think Il also expected Yona to avenge him, since he told Soo-won he’d be killed by Yona. But Il loved Yona so he didn’t “turn away from her” when she didn’t do it. Unlike Kashi. Idk tho.

In our world anything could be, and many more. I wouldn’t be surprised about anything tbh.

I’m just confused why you even compared all that to the priests in the manga who had nothing to do with any of that, and seemed to doubt Iksoo’s and Kashi’s powers or honesty or mental state when that’s like absolutely not the case😅. But anyway let’s drop that, maybe I misunderstood u.

I am actually arguing with you this very point. Zeno was a priest, because the people believed in him. Who cares if it was a lie or not? The effect is the determining factor.

I genuinely had no idea that “playing priest” would be a trigger. I was just being a nerd trying to be close to the lore of the story. As in the story I saw that Kouka’s priests tended to be highly spiritual people that were closer to the gods than other people, I thought it would be right to say that Zeno who couldn’t do it (anymore) but was pretending for 20 years that he could, was more acting a role for the sake of people rather than being a priest because he believed he was one.

True priests also tend to have absolute love for the gods they pray to and absolute faith that gods’ will is sacred and is for the good of humanity. In Zeno’s case who already then knew the gods condemned him to a terrible immortal fate, knew that they were silent to his pleas and never intended to protect Hiryuu’s country or its people, Im not sure of his absolute love or faith in them. He did not yet hate them but I don’t believe he was a devoted religious believer either.

The one Zeno truly loved was king Hiryuu, he wanted to follow his path and protect the people he loved but for me it’s different from being a priest devoted to the dragon gods.

I doubt, that it actually started with Hiryuu. He was a single case. His children had all different hair colors. And Yaksi did not appear to be sick, actually.

I’m not sure about that. We saw Yaksi when he was very young, he could’ve died from the illness when he was older. As far as I understood the decedents mostly became sick middle-aged or old even (Yong-hi’s mother was quite old when she died and not even from the illness).

So as it was Hiryuu’s blood that was cursed, everyone carrying it must have been sick.

But while the blond family line was intentionally preserving their bloodline, the others it seems weren’t. In 2000 years, from wars or the illness itself they just perished, while one line remained.

That was my theory but not like we’ll ever get more info on what really happened😓

I know, this sounds strange. But Kashi most likely loved King Il enourmously. Her reason for hating Soo Won is most likely because of the murder. Even if she voiced it like this. She wished to be his wife. This would be logical. You just have to see her face, when she looks at Il, when she was a shrine maiden.

By loveless marriage I meant that Kashi didn’t know if Il ever loved her. She believed it was only because they had Yona the new crimson dragon.

I do think you’re right that maybe Kashi liked Il before the priests were burnt. But the primary reason for their marriage was her feeling that their child will be a new Hiryuu. For Il that was pure joy. I think she may have wanted that too as she was a priestess but maybe secretly wished for Il to love her too. But she never felt that after all, Il didn’t show it to her even though we find out that he did love her. Sad. Il loved her certainly, as someone like him went into flames for her.

The conclusion would be then, that Kashi loved Yona less than King Il did?

It is sometimes hard to bring a point across. Maybe because of the language barrier? Or maybe I have not found the right arguments.

I am actually just wish to convey, that we do not know him - the priest.

We do not know, what a priest in our world thinks. If he even believes, if his belief is an effect of a sickness, of drug use, if he has doubts in general or in certain points.

To think that faith is absolute, would be horrifying. It has been horrifying. I stared my whole life at this absolute "great priests" in my belief, because they pretended to have never any doubts. To not see the injustices. It was like this and I should swallow it wholly and it horrified me.

We do not know the priest himself - at all. Usually and if he performs his role. And it is always a role. We all "act" in a certain way, when we "work".

So we all "play a role", because we wish to fulfill a function. And the function can be also "a priest". Maybe you mean it in a different way, and I am honestly too sensitive here. If so, I am truly sorry. In every case, it was not my intention to attack you.

Would have done Zeno anything differently, if he had talked with one of the present gods? Most likely, he would have most likely lost his belief earlier and had been paralysed. Kouka might have died, before it even got the chance to grow. His belief and wish to belong got him further and allowed this young country to live.

Personally i do believe, that Zeno rescued the country in its earlier stages. As small children as heirs usually mean the decline of the country. No strong unifying force enables people, who had always a desire for power. As we could see with King Il and Soo Jin.

Has Zeno really ruled? Most likely not directly. But he gave them belief. fate. In a crisis. It was the certainty that they would survive. And this lie helped them to go the first few steps.

What does a little lie mean in the face of the possibility that everything might have been ruined?

I’m not sure about that. We saw Yaksi when he was very young, he could’ve died from the illness when he was older. As far as I understood the decedents mostly became sick middle-aged or old even (Yong-hi’s mother was quite old when she died and not even from the illness). So as it was Hiryuu’s blood that was cursed, everyone carrying it must have been sick. But while the blond family line was intentionally preserving their bloodline, the others it seems weren’t. In 2000 years, from wars or the illness itself they just perished, while one line remained. That was my theory but not like we’ll ever get more info on what really happened😓

It would depend, what you understand as young. In the picture, we see him last, this guy must be about 30-34 years old. When his father died, he appeared to be about at least 10 years old, if not as old as Yoon so about 13-14 years old. Zeno had already served as a priest for 20 years during this time in point.

Yon hi got sick at about 36 years old. It would be not unrealistic for a person to have been sick.

How could people, even more people who lose their lives soon "preserve" their line? And not everybody got sick. Only about 50 % get the Crimson Illness. The rest has normal life spans.

Zeno explained that magical blood had its price. So is the question: For what did the descendants pay? Why had all descendants blonde hair? It does not make much sense. The descendants look like they are actually Zeno´s kin and not Hiryuu´s.

In fact we do not hear from any other people who have this. Only one line appears.

The others have either died out or they just do not have the Crimson Illness, because the Illness does have a function after all.

Everything appears to be "fate" in this manga. So we could conclude that the dragon gods - like in the case of the dragon warriors - preserved the village. Because from this village would come the "Sword".

It is at least likely.

By loveless marriage I meant that Kashi didn’t know if Il ever loved her. She believed it was only because they had Yona the new crimson dragon.

It is another great example of the tendency to not tell other people their true feelings.

Hak, Yona and Soo Won are also great at this. But they got better at least.

I do think you’re right that maybe Kashi liked Il before the priests were burnt. But the primary reason for their marriage was her feeling that their child will be a new Hiryuu. For Il that was pure joy. I think she may have wanted that too as she was a priestess but maybe secretly wished for Il to love her too.

Indeed. Because she believed maybe she was not important enough. After all, she also was a commoner like Yon hi. And King Il was too preoccupied with raising King Hiryuu´s reincarnation.

Sad. Il loved her certainly, as someone like him went into flames for her.

Yes, Hak has been right after all. King Il was not a coward, if people he loved were in danger. Just like with Yona, when he prevented Tae Jun from harming Hak and Yona.

I’m unsure if Kashi loved Yona at all while Il absolutely did. Like I said Kashi is one of the most mysterious, unexplained characters so I wouldn’t be surprised. Something has to explain why she turned away from Yona when she was calling out to her. Il looked at her even though Yona didn’t kill Soo-won (like he may have wanted) but Kashi didn’t budge.

That is, what I don´t really know at all. Yona has - of course - a very positive understanding of the situation. But it appears so naive.

Placed side by side, these images become even more ridiculous.

Hak: “The day will come when you will understand the joy of being subjects of Princess Yona.”

Later: “To get here, we suffered bandit attacks, cracks in the ground, and rockslides. In any case, it took us a very long time. We thought we had sent enough supplies and personnel, but it wasn't enough. Meanwhile, in the remote regions, many people were looking for work and supplies, and discontent continued to mount. There has to be more… Some way to resolve this.”

Later, Yona: “When we traveled, I understood better how people lived.”

Excuse me, but Hak praises Yona based on what? On the newly discovered epiphany that reality exists outside the palace?

She comes from the following journey: Childhood in the palace: lives isolated and is unaware of the kingdom. Journey through Kouka: supposedly discovers hunger, corruption, slavery, abuse, and inequality. Return to the palace: in two months, she loses touch with everything again. Solemn reflection: she discovers that, from the palace, she doesn't see people's lives so clearly.

That's not political growth. It's going all the way around only to return to the starting point, only now wearing a ceremonial cape and with her hands clasped.

And what's lacking isn't abstract intelligence. It's applied learning. After having lived abroad, she should return knowing precisely that the palace distorts information. The logical thing would have been for her to organize from day one: liaisons with each tribe; independent local officials; verified reports; regular tours; channels for receiving complaints; unannounced inspections; people whose job wasn't to tell her she was trying incredibly hard.

But it seems that didn't occur to her until they had already miscalculated the supplies and discontent was growing. Fantastic administrative debut.

And the expressions make it worse, because the drawing shows no shame at having lost touch, no frustration at the system's failure, no sense of responsibility, and no fear of repeating the blindness of his childhood. She displays a kind of delicate contemplation, as if she had grasped a profound truth: “Outside the palace, you see things you can’t see from inside.”

Yes, Yona. You also notice the rain more when there’s no roof. Record that in the annals of the kingdom.

And Hak remembers it with that gentle, approving smile, without questioning a thing. He, who is traveling the roads, observing the needs and doing the fieldwork the government doesn’t know how to organize, decides that the moment demands admiration. Not analysis.

The two feed off each other, and that is perhaps the most irritating aspect. Hak promises the people that they will be happy under Yona. Yona accepts that faith as something natural. Yona states the obvious with solemnity. Hak receives it as proof of wisdom. Neither introduces friction into the other.

He doesn’t say to her: “Then the system you have isn’t working.”

She doesn’t say to him: “You can’t travel the entire kingdom alone doing my job.”

No. She thinks. He smiles. Then he sets off on a walk of another 500 kilometers without a horse.

And the propaganda slogan comes across even worse: “The day will come when you will understand how fortunate we are…” This demands enormous confidence in Yona’s abilities. But the gaiden itself is showing that she is unaware of the magnitude of the needs, has sent insufficient resources, lacks reliable information, discontent is growing, and depends on Hak to find out what’s happening.

And is Hak already proclaiming future national happiness as dogma? This isn’t reasoned confidence. It’s faith. And that’s why he seems brainwashed: the reality he himself observes doesn’t alter his preconceived notion. Yona will be a magnificent queen because she is Yona. The facts will be incorporated later, when they have some free time.

A ruler who rediscovers the existence of the people every two months, and a bodyguard who turns every governmental deficiency into early proof of greatness. The kingdom is in magnificent hands. They just need a network for information, transportation, administration, self-criticism, and maybe a shared brain for emergencies.

Au contraire, Yona needs also "abstract intelligence" as she does not need to invent the wheel again. There have been countless other rulers before her and their experience might also come in handy.

Right now, she is merely able to rule, because Soo Won and Keishuk took the MOST of her tasks from her.

Yona merely has to do 2000 of 10.000.

She needs to know everything from economy over law to political tactics, warfare, foreign affairs ect...Yona knows merely the basics and needs to learn much.

But yes, she does need information for a direct source...and this is, what Hak is already doing. He does collect information and will bring this information to Yona and co.

It is impossible for her to do everything alone, but other people are there, who will help her. Without their help it would be impossible for her to rule.

The logical thing would have been for her to organize from day one: liaisons with each tribe; independent local officials; verified reports; regular tours; channels for receiving complaints; unannounced inspections; people whose job wasn't to tell her she was trying incredibly hard.

Yona is right now struggling to rule at all. Currently she is not able to manage this job at all alone. This girl is still learning. It has been 2 months since she has taken on the hardest job of all: Being a good Queen Regnant.

And Soo Won has already removed much of the corrupt officials to begin with, as we have seen with Kum Ji. Originally he had tried to get intel about this man, when he met Yona in Awa.

In fact, Soo Won is already trying to figure out, how to change the current system. Yona does not have to do everything alone. Actually, she has never managed everything alone during her whole journey.

The two feed off each other, and that is perhaps the most irritating aspect. Hak promises the people that they will be happy under Yona. Yona accepts that faith as something natural. Yona states the obvious with solemnity. Hak receives it as proof of wisdom. Neither introduces friction into the other. He doesn’t say to her: “Then the system you have isn’t working.” She doesn’t say to him: “You can’t travel the entire kingdom alone doing my job.” No. She thinks. He smiles. Then he sets off on a walk of another 500 kilometers without a horse.

Neither Hak nor Yona would have left the castle entirely on their own. The driving factor for change have always been Soo Won (and Zeno).

And the propaganda slogan comes across even worse: “The day will come when you will understand how fortunate we are…” This demands enormous confidence in Yona’s abilities. But the gaiden itself is showing that she is unaware of the magnitude of the needs, has sent insufficient resources, lacks reliable information, discontent is growing, and depends on Hak to find out what’s happening.

Correct observation. It is indeed fate. Hak´s strength is his loyalty to people he loves. He isn´t critical of Yona and most likely never will. It is not in his nature.

I hope, that Zeno, who is at least talking with people, even if he suffers from severe depression it seems, might influence the story. Lily, who is visiting Ogi, the literal information broker, might be another source. It might lead to Soo Won visiting Ogi again, as he does need this kind of information.

And is Hak already proclaiming future national happiness as dogma? This isn’t reasoned confidence. It’s faith. And that’s why he seems brainwashed: the reality he himself observes doesn’t alter his preconceived notion. Yona will be a magnificent queen because she is Yona. The facts will be incorporated later, when they have some free time.

Hak was a person, who trusted King Il. He is great at believing, but does not wish to see the truth. He is the kind of guy, who thought that a marriage between Yona and Soo Won would have worked even after him and Yona have become a couple.

A ruler who rediscovers the existence of the people every two months, and a bodyguard who turns every governmental deficiency into early proof of greatness. The kingdom is in magnificent hands. They just need a network for information, transportation, administration, self-criticism, and maybe a shared brain for emergencies. Jesús, qué tropa.

Of course she has abstract intelligence. The wheel has already been invented, and besides, she's used it, but it seems she's only now becoming aware of its existence. What I mean is that she lacks the ability to apply that abstract intelligence.

It is impossible for her to do everything alone, but other people are there, who will help her. Without their help it would be impossible for her to rule.

Yona could have refused to ascend the throne until she felt ready, and she didn't. Girl, take responsibility for your actions. We're back to the same old story: she gets into trouble that others get her out of. But the credit is always hers, because she's the one who puts in so much effort. The others just sit back and watch time go by, it seems.

This girl is still learning. It has been 2 months since she has taken on the hardest job of all: Being a good Queen Regnant.

Poor thing. I'll say it again: she didn't have to accept the crown.

Actually, she has never managed everything alone during her whole journey.

Indeed, she's never done anything alone throughout her journey.

Neither Hak nor Yona would have left the castle entirely on their own. The driving factor for change have always been Soo Won (and Zeno).

I completely agree. And it's precisely Soo Won and Zeno who have the worst endings. It must be a coincidence, right?

Hak was a person, who trusted King Il. He is great at believing, but does not wish to see the truth. He is the kind of guy, who thought that a marriage between Yona and Soo Won would have worked even after him and Yona have become a couple.

Hak is willfully blind and a delusional fool. And many other things, none of them particularly good...

This is Soo Won´s task. And the one of others. It seems as if Ogi, Lily, Zeno and Soo Won might play a little role as well.

Yes, but Yona has to learn how to "apply abstract intelligence". This is an ability. We learn how to "abstract" slowly in school.

This is Soo Won´s home turf, but Yona is still a baby chicken. She has most likely less knowledge than a common 16 year old due to her "lacking" education by King Il.

Yona could have refused to ascend the throne until she felt ready, and she didn't. Girl, take responsibility for your actions. We're back to the same old story: she gets into trouble that others get her out of. But the credit is always hers, because she's the one who puts in so much effort. The others just sit back and watch time go by, it seems.

You are right, she could have refused, but she could not bring herself to refuse Soo Won, who had nearly died. And he had promised to help her. The mistake lies more with him than her in that case. But Soo Won most likely couldn´t anymore after the events in the mausoleum.

She contributed like everybody else, but she has always been hailed for everybody´s common efforts. As if she was the sole source. But Yona has never been the sole source.

I completely agree. And it's precisely Soo Won and Zeno who have the worst endings. It must be a coincidence, right?

Not a coincidence at all. In order to become a bird, in order to acquire a wide and great knowledge. In order to acquire wisdom, you have to sometimes go through hell. That is why those two are birds.

Soo Won and Zeno both hold contrary, but important wisdom. They acquired a wider point of view as everybody else. Without this wisdom everything goes to shit. Again. Like with King Il.

Hak is willfully blind and a delusional fool. And many other things, none of them particularly good…

No, he is not a fool. Though I agree, that he is blind. He is Yona´s significant other, so of course, he tends to be loyal, and nice and full of illusions. Yona had to literally break herself away from illusions...because she loves cushy dreams more than reality.

Yes, it always seems to be someone else's job.

That is precisely my point: Yona still has to learn how to apply what she knows to practical situations.

This is Soo-won’s home turf, but Yona is still a baby chicken. She most likely has less knowledge than an ordinary sixteen-year-old because of the education King Il denied her.

It is true that she lacks knowledge and education. However, there is at least one lesson she should already understand through direct experience: life inside the castle gives her a much poorer view of the country than life outside it.

She spent her childhood isolated inside the castle and then travelled through Kouka, however involuntarily at first. She should not need two months as queen before receiving this realization like Saint Paul on the road to Damascus.

You are right, she could have refused, but she could not bring herself to refuse Soo-won, who had nearly died. And he had promised to help her. The mistake lies more with him than with her in that case.

I do not see it that way. That interpretation removes Yona’s agency precisely when responsibility is being discussed, only to restore it when she is presented as a legitimate and admirable sovereign.

Soo-won may certainly have been wrong to offer her the crown without arranging a sufficient transition. But Yona accepted it. She knew that he was gravely injured, that she would depend heavily on his assistance, and that she lacked the necessary education and experience.

Her inability to bring herself to refuse him explains her decision emotionally. It does not erase the fact that she made that decision.

And if Soo-won had just emerged from the mausoleum gravely wounded and perhaps unable to continue ruling, it seems rather unfair to place the full responsibility for choosing an unprepared successor on him as well. Apparently, even while abdicating after nearly dying, he was expected to arrange everything perfectly.

I think the fairest conclusion is that Soo-won made a mistake by offering her the crown without an adequate transition, and Yona made a mistake by accepting it while unprepared.

She contributed like everybody else, but she has always been praised for everybody’s collective efforts, as though she were the sole source.

I have nothing to dispute here. I completely agree.

Yona contributes, but the narrative repeatedly turns collective work into an extension of Yona. Other people provide strength, information, strategy, sacrifice, experience and administration. Afterwards, someone explains that everything happened because Yona inspires people, works harder than anyone else or will create a better world.

Not a coincidence at all. In order to become a bird, in order to acquire broad knowledge and wisdom, one sometimes has to go through hell. That is why those two are birds.

That may be symbolically true, but it does not answer the question of narrative injustice.

Suffering may produce wisdom. It does not require Soo-won and Zeno to receive the harshest endings, nor does it justify other characters benefiting from their wisdom while they themselves are left dispossessed.

Saying that they passed through hell in order to become birds is beautiful. It is also very convenient for those who inherit the nest, the kingdom and the applause.

Soo-won and Zeno both possess different but important kinds of wisdom. They have acquired a broader perspective than everyone else. Without that wisdom, everything goes wrong again, as it did under King Il.

Then Soo-won and Zeno remain indispensable, while the person who has been crowned does not yet possess what is required to prevent the same disaster from recurring.

No, he is not a fool.

That is fair. Calling him a fool was unnecessarily harsh, and I apologize for that wording.

He is Yona’s significant other, so of course he tends to be loyal, kind and full of illusions. Yona had to break away from illusions because she loves comfortable dreams more than reality.

Being someone’s partner does not require surrendering critical judgment. A partner can, and sometimes should, introduce friction when the other person is failing.

Loyalty does not require transforming governmental deficiencies into advance proof of greatness.

“Hak loves Yona, and therefore he cannot see reality clearly where she is concerned” may explain his behaviour. It does not make that behaviour healthy, admirable or romantic.

And if Hak knows that Yona prefers comfortable dreams to reality, his role should not be to wrap every new problem in another comfortable dream. Yet there he is, working overtime for the national department of illusion.

Soo-won understood that sometimes you need more people rather than boxes. He was as close to a perfect king as possible, but people want to help Yona. Even the most perfect ruler cannot defeat the will of the many.

A monarch does not need to be the most intelligent person in the room or perform every task alone. A good ruler must gather capable people, listen to them, coordinate their work and take responsibility for the outcome.

The problem is that the manga does not show Yona doing this particularly well. It shows other people solving problems while she receives their loyalty.

The fact that people want to help her is not automatically evidence of political competence. To turn that collective willingness into proof of good government, the story would need to show Yona distributing responsibilities, weighing competing advice, correcting mistakes, protecting the autonomy of those who assist her and accepting responsibility when the system fails.

Without that, we do not have collective leadership. We have collective labour attributed to a charismatic central figure.

Yona succeeding because people choose to help her could have been a compelling idea if the manga had said: “Yona is not the most capable person, but she learns to govern by listening to people who are better prepared than she is.”

But that is not what Hak proclaims. He says: “The day will come when you understand how fortunate we are to be Princess Yona’s people.”

There is also another problem. Much of Yona’s extraordinary authority during her journey came from travelling with the dragon warriors and from being identified with the Crimson Dragon. Those things gave her immense symbolic power, military power and an almost supernatural ability to draw people towards her.

Now the dragons are gone, and Yona is no longer being presented as the Crimson Dragon. What remains is a very young, poorly educated and inexperienced ruler. That does not mean she is doomed to fail. It means the manga must now demonstrate, rather than merely proclaim, what makes her capable of ruling without the divine authority and power that carried so much of her journey.

Indeed. But in the moment she is still pretty unexperienced. At the moment she needs pretty much help.

It is true that she lacks knowledge and education. However, there is at least one lesson she should already understand through direct experience: life inside the castle gives her a much poorer view of the country than life outside it.

As a queen she is more bound and cannot just walk out like she used to. Especially since everybody knows she is the queen. I guess she might color her hair, if she - sometimes - goes out.

Nevertheless she has now to care for a whole country, therefore she has to stay for a certain time at the castle. Especially now, as she is still soaking up knowledge.

She spent her childhood isolated inside the castle and then travelled through Kouka, however involuntarily at first. She should not need two months as queen before receiving this realization like Saint Paul on the road to Damascus.

Why not? She is completely inexperienced as a ruler for a great country. She is 16 years old and is right now cramming her head with all the abstract knowledge she can get. Making mistakes is a given in that situation.

I do not see it that way. That interpretation removes Yona’s agency precisely when responsibility is being discussed, only to restore it when she is presented as a legitimate and admirable sovereign.

But Yona did not know, what it meant to be ruler. Soo Won had experienced it already. So he is in a better position to consider the given situation than Yona.

Yes, she has agency. She tries it with full force. He should still have considered, how young she still is. However, truth be told. Soo Won is himself also only 18 years old. We are speaking about very young adults to teenagers.

The former generation massively fucked up, so that merely half-children are left.

Actually, as an adult I am a little shocked how much responsibility this young teenagers to young adults have.

Soo-won may certainly have been wrong to offer her the crown without arranging a sufficient transition. But Yona accepted it. She knew that he was gravely injured, that she would depend heavily on his assistance, and that she lacked the necessary education and experience. Her inability to bring herself to refuse him explains her decision emotionally. It does not erase the fact that she made that decision.

You are right. It was naive of her to make this decision. But unfortunately Yona is naive. The greatest pain she experienced was losing her father and even then there was Hak, shielding her. Later she acquired a small army in the form of the dragon warriors. She could jump into a rain of arrows and she was fine.

So nothing ever happened to her. Zeno and Soo Won felt the consequences of their decisions. But well, sometimes Yona has to experience pain to get it.

That may be symbolically true, but it does not answer the question of narrative injustice.

I guess, it is a given that Yona was pampered while Soo Won and Zeno had to go through hell. Life is sometimes unfair. But these experiences, this pain also taught them important lessons.

Right now, Yona is slightly hurting, too. Without a little pain and learnt experience, you won´t acquire "wings".

Suffering may produce wisdom. It does not require Soo-won and Zeno to receive the harshest endings, nor does it justify other characters benefiting from their wisdom while they themselves are left dispossessed.

Yes, I fully agree. It is so unfair that Zeno and Soo Won had to suffer so greatly...that they had to go through hell. It is an injustice. But unfortunately they were part of horrifying systems that were prone to "produce" such sacrifices.

That these sacrifices were unnecessary might be one moral of this story.

Saying that they passed through hell in order to become birds is beautiful. It is also very convenient for those who inherit the nest, the kingdom and the applause.

Soo Won and Zeno - unfortunately - held some believes that turnt out horrifying for especially them. Only through some pain they could let go of these believes...but that is one reason they are currently "floating"...

For both core convictions crumbled in the last arc.

Being someone’s partner does not require surrendering critical judgment. A partner can, and sometimes should, introduce friction when the other person is failing.

Actually I tried to express that Hak resembles Yona in that point. They are very kind, but are dreamers and tend to see the world how they wish to see it. Unfortunately.

Loyalty does not require transforming governmental deficiencies into advance proof of greatness. “Hak loves Yona, and therefore he cannot see reality clearly where she is concerned” may explain his behaviour. It does not make that behaviour healthy, admirable or romantic.

I agree. Some people wouldn´t. And the behaviour is not healthy or admirable. But Hak is like this. He is not just loyal, he is absolutely loyal and unfortunately prone to fall for illusions. In a way he has changed "Soo Won the king" for"Yona the queen".

But an illusion it still is.

And if Hak knows that Yona prefers comfortable dreams to reality, his role should not be to wrap every new problem in another comfortable dream. Yet there he is, working overtime for the national department of illusion.

Great! Your insight is great. Indeed. I came to the same conclusion, that Hak easily falls into these traps, if he is left alone.

However, Hak confuses the dreams for reality himself. Therefore he is -blissfully- unaware of the statue of things.

A monarch does not need to be the most intelligent person in the room or perform every task alone. A good ruler must gather capable people, listen to them, coordinate their work and take responsibility for the outcome.

Indeed. Soo Won came to the same conclusion. However Yona is not - yet- able to perform this task. Therefore Keishuk and Soo Won take much of her responsibility.

The problem is that the manga does not show Yona doing this particularly well. It shows other people solving problems while she receives their loyalty.

Like in an illusion of grandeur, right? Indeed, this is a problem and I guess it might be solved. However, she might never be the great leader people wish her to be. But she might get people to help her on her way.

Like we both concluded. Yona has never solved a problem on her own. And she won´t be able to do it in the future. Without all the people she knows, she would not be able to do anything.

Soo Won is already trying to change the given system in order to take in more responsible people. As the monarch helds too much power in his eyes, now.

I have an inkling that the development goes in the direction of a democracy.

The fact that people want to help her is not automatically evidence of political competence. To turn that collective willingness into proof of good government, the story would need to show Yona distributing responsibilities, weighing competing advice, correcting mistakes, protecting the autonomy of those who assist her and accepting responsibility when the system fails.

She still has a long way to go...

Without that, we do not have collective leadership. We have collective labour attributed to a charismatic central figure.

Indeed. This is the trap the people are right now prone to falling. She is considered the reincarnation of the dragon god, after all. Her fame attributes too much of the success to her. Even though, strictly, speaking Yona is right now merely a charismatic figure, but not the central power. She needs to develop this.

And Soo Won has to really develop a backbone again, because he sometimes needs to go against her, challenge her again. Yona is not a really driven person.

Yona succeeding because people choose to help her could have been a compelling idea if the manga had said: “Yona is not the most capable person, but she learns to govern by listening to people who are better prepared than she is.” But that is not what Hak proclaims. He says: “The day will come when you understand how fortunate we are to be Princess Yona’s people.”

Yes! Yes! Yes! Completely delusional...Kusanagi himself mentioned something similar in an interview...even if the expression was not that strong.

There is also another problem. Much of Yona’s extraordinary authority during her journey came from travelling with the dragon warriors and from being identified with the Crimson Dragon. Those things gave her immense symbolic power, military power and an almost supernatural ability to draw people towards her.

Indeed. Indeed. This is a point. People would not attribute power to her, if she was not the reincarnation.

Determination and effort matter. They are not substitutes for knowledge, judgment, accountability and effective government.

Soo-won did not truly know what ruling a country meant until he actually became king either. The crucial difference was preparation: Soo-won possessed the necessary knowledge and could organize and make decisions. Yona does not yet possess that knowledge or demonstrate the same ability to organize. Other people perform much of that work, while the narrative often transfers the resulting credit to her.

Yes, she has agency. She tries with all her strength. He should still have considered how young she is. However, Soo-won himself is only eighteen. We are speaking about teenagers and very young adults.

Trying with all one’s strength is an exercise of agency, but it is not proof of competence, preparation or sound judgment.

Yona had the agency to accept the crown. That means she must also bear responsibility for accepting a position she was not prepared to hold. Effort does not make the decision wise, nor does it automatically make her capable of fulfilling the role.

And why must her youth excuse her whenever responsibility is discussed, while at other times the narrative presents her as the kingdom’s greatest warrior, future saviour and natural sovereign? That double standard is precisely what bothers me.

The former generation massively failed, leaving little more than children behind.

Yes. What a magnificent collection of responsible adults they were.

As an adult, I am rather shocked by how much responsibility these teenagers and young adults carry.

I agree that eighteen is extremely young for this degree of responsibility, at least from my own cultural perspective. Other societies and historical periods have drawn adulthood much earlier, so I would not treat our present standards as universal.

What bothers me is not simply their age. It is that age is used as an excuse selectively: Yona is a child when her errors require accountability, but an extraordinary leader when the story wants admiration for her.

It was naive of her to make this decision. Unfortunately, Yona is naive. The greatest pain she experienced was losing her father, and even then Hak protected her. Later, she acquired a small army in the dragon warriors. She could jump into a rain of arrows and remain unharmed.

The famous rain of arrows. Please do not remind me.

But yes, I see Yona’s naivety as a serious argument against her suitability to rule, not as a mitigating virtue. An ingenuous sovereign is extremely vulnerable. Either she learns quickly, or other people will manipulate her and the country will pay the price.

That these sacrifices were unnecessary might be one moral of the story.

I am honestly unable to derive that interpretation from the text. I do not mean that dismissively; it simply had never occurred to me. I would have to think about it.

Soo-won and Zeno held beliefs that proved horrifying, especially for them. Only through pain could they relinquish those beliefs, and that is one reason they are currently “floating.” Both of their central convictions collapsed in the final arc.

Soo-won and Zeno may be “floating,” but to me they appear to be floating in a sea of depression.

Their former convictions may have collapsed, and that can certainly form part of a meaningful character transformation. I still do not find their outcomes beautiful, fair or emotionally adequate. Losing a destructive conviction does not require being left emptied of purpose, identity and reward while others inherit the fruits of your suffering.

I was trying to express that Hak resembles Yona in this respect. They are kind, but they are dreamers and tend to see the world as they wish it to be.

Unfortunately, yes. They reinforce one another’s preferred reality and remain inside the same comfortable bubble. I do not regard that as a promising path for either a relationship or a government.

Hak is not merely loyal; he is absolutely loyal and inclined to fall for illusions. In a way, he has replaced “Soo-won the king” with “Yona the queen.” But it remains an illusion.

I agree. My problem is that the manga appears to present this as something beautiful.

Hak mistakes dreams for reality himself. Therefore, he is blissfully unaware of the state of things.

What a marvellous condition: moving through life without noticing what is happening around you.

I find it deeply sad rather than blissful. Hak’s loyalty has ceased to coexist with judgment and has begun to replace it.

Soo-won came to the same conclusion. However, Yona is not yet able to perform this task. Therefore, Kye-sook and Soo-won assume much of her responsibility.

The main story has ended, and only one gaiden chapter remains. At this point, I think it is fair to remove the word “yet.”

Yona is not currently capable of performing that role. What she might become later will depend entirely on each reader’s imagination, because the manga has almost run out of pages in which to show it.

This is a problem, and I suppose it might be solved. She may never become the great leader people expect her to be, but she may persuade people to help her along the way.

Or she may not. We cannot know unless the final gaiden chapter contains another two hundred pages and resolves everything still pending.

As the text currently stands, Yona lacks the education, demonstrated judgment and political character required to govern effectively without extensive support. Perhaps she will acquire them in two years. Perhaps she will not. Either answer now belongs to the reader, not to the completed narrative.

The manga can only be assessed by what it has actually shown.

She still has a long way to go.

She needs to develop this.

Yes. The small problem is that the story is over.

Soo-won really needs to develop a backbone again, because he sometimes needs to oppose and challenge her. Yona is not a particularly driven person.

What Soo-won should do is retire somewhere far from the palace and live whatever life he chooses. He could read, since he enjoys it, and plant potatoes if the mood takes him.

I do not see why his future must remain dedicated to guiding, challenging and educating Yona when the entire universe already seems organized around supporting her.

He has already surrendered his health, youth, reign and future to Kouka. He should not now be assigned the additional lifelong task of supplying its new queen with judgment and resolve.

Yona will probably learn this, more or less, if she is not prevented from doing so. So yes, Soo-won has a great deal of work ahead of him.

And we return to the same conclusion: the solution to Yona’s problems remains in Soo-won’s hands.

Yona may receive the crown, loyalty and public faith, but Soo-won must still provide knowledge, reform the system, challenge her illusions and help her become capable of governing.

Indeed. But Yona was not given the chance to prepare herself. Her father did not educate her like this, as she was not considered his heir.

So she started a lot later than Soo Won, who has been raised to be the Crown Prince and later king since he was basically a baby.

Trying with all one’s strength is an exercise of agency, but it is not proof of competence, preparation or sound judgment. Yona had the agency to accept the crown. That means she must also bear responsibility for accepting a position she was not prepared to hold. Effort does not make the decision wise, nor does it automatically make her capable of fulfilling the role.

True. In a position like Yona´s you can hardly say "I tried" and be done with. Effort does not count, if people are suffering or Yona makes horrible decisions.

Currently luckily she has counselors, who take over much of her work. Like she has merely 1/4 of the actual tasks of a ruler of Kouka.

And why must her youth excuse her whenever responsibility is discussed, while at other times the narrative presents her as the kingdom’s greatest warrior, future saviour and natural sovereign? That double standard is precisely what bothers me.

Yes, i agree, that it is unfair that she gets so much fame, but she is still 16 years old. This is awfully young for an uneducated person to be responsible for the lives of thousands of people.

It is therefore less of an "excuse", but a fact that she is awfully young and this girl would not be considered an adult in my country. She would not be able to drive or even vote. But she rules a whole country in this time line. There is a certain reason, why children are protected before they become adults, as they sometimes are not fully aware of the risks they take. Their brains have not yet developed fully.

But yes, I see Yona’s naivety as a serious argument against her suitability to rule, not as a mitigating virtue. An ingenuous sovereign is extremely vulnerable. Either she learns quickly, or other people will manipulate her and the country will pay the price.

One can hope, that she loses the naivety as she makes experiences.

Soo-won and Zeno may be “floating,” but to me they appear to be floating in a sea of depression. Their former convictions may have collapsed, and that can certainly form part of a meaningful character transformation. I still do not find their outcomes beautiful, fair or emotionally adequate. Losing a destructive conviction does not require being left emptied of purpose, identity and reward while others inherit the fruits of your suffering.

Indeed. Life is unfair and many of their pains are unnecessary. Unfortunately, if you break down or lose a very important conviction it often happens that depressive tendencies, the feeling of losing the ground beneath your feet, is an effect.

Unfortunately, I have experiences with this statue. It is therefore natural, that both feel like this.

And yes, I also think so much of this is unfair to both of them.

I am honestly unable to derive that interpretation from the text. I do not mean that dismissively; it simply had never occurred to me. I would have to think about it.

If you consider both systems - King Il and Yu hon´s - as some sort of cults, you might understand it better. There is a lot of "brain-washing", and manipulation involved that directly impacted both Soo Won and Zeno.

Unfortunately, yes. They reinforce one another’s preferred reality and remain inside the same comfortable bubble. I do not regard that as a promising path for either a relationship or a government.

Soo Won´s job is hard. I am truly not jealous of him for having to persuade those two.

I agree. My problem is that the manga appears to present this as something beautiful.

I think, I cannot completely disagree here. Yes, many love his devotion, but i am also not the greatest fan of it, honestly. But don´t you think, that not more people will realize in the latest chapter, that something isn´t right with Hak´s perception?

Yona is not currently capable of performing that role. What she might become later will depend entirely on each reader’s imagination, because the manga has almost run out of pages in which to show it.

Unfortunately, fair. I don´t understand it, why Kusanagi presented it like this. This is the second-to-last chapter, after all.

Or she may not. We cannot know unless the final gaiden chapter contains another two hundred pages and resolves everything still pending. As the text currently stands, Yona lacks the education, demonstrated judgment and political character required to govern effectively without extensive support. Perhaps she will acquire them in two years. Perhaps she will not. Either answer now belongs to the reader, not to the completed narrative. The manga can only be assessed by what it has actually shown.

I so hope for a spin-off or something along those lines. As I really don´t understand the decision of the mangaka. As you said, it would need a good of 200 pages to resolve every issue.

What Soo-won should do is retire somewhere far from the palace and live whatever life he chooses. He could read, since he enjoys it, and plant potatoes if the mood takes him. I do not see why his future must remain dedicated to guiding, challenging and educating Yona when the entire universe already seems organized around supporting her. He has already surrendered his health, youth, reign and future to Kouka. He should not now be assigned the additional lifelong task of supplying its new queen with judgment and resolve.

Do you honestly believe this? He would never do this. Unfortunately for him, fortunately for everybody else.

The entire country would fall into the next King Il era, if Soo Won was not there.

Though i believe, that he would fancy planting potatoes....

And we return to the same conclusion: the solution to Yona’s problems remains in Soo-won’s hands. Yona may receive the crown, loyalty and public faith, but Soo-won must still provide knowledge, reform the system, challenge her illusions and help her become capable of governing. That is precisely the imbalance I have been criticizing from the beginning.

Then I think the logical solution is fairly simple.

If Yona’s age, lack of education and immaturity are such serious obstacles, she should not retain full sovereign authority while the reader is asked to excuse her inability to exercise it. She could abdicate until she is properly prepared, just as Soo-won abdicated when he believed he could no longer continue. A regency could be established, or a council could be given genuine governing authority while Yona is publicly recognised as a sovereign in training.

That would also mean that immediate credit went to the people who actually administer, reform, decide and solve problems. Yona could receive recognition for her progress when she had actually made that progress. A revolutionary concept, apparently: credit after the work.

Currently, fortunately, she has counsellors who assume much of her work. She has perhaps only one quarter of the actual duties of a ruler of Kouka.

If Soo-won, Kye-sook and the others are carrying most of the workload, that already resembles an informal regency, with one peculiar arrangement: other people govern, Yona reigns, and the narrative transfers the credit upwards.

If that situation were formally acknowledged, it would at least be institutionally honest. The story could say plainly that Yona is not ready, that she is learning under a governing council, and that she will assume full responsibility when she has demonstrated that she can exercise it.

I agree that it is unfair that she receives so much fame, but she is still sixteen years old. That is extremely young for an uneducated person to be responsible for thousands of lives. It is therefore less an excuse than a fact.

Her youth explains her limitations. It does not justify allowing her to exercise an authority for which that same youth supposedly makes her unfit.

Yona also has the agency to conclude that she is not yet prepared to rule. Accepting the crown because she could not bring herself to refuse Soo-won, because she wanted to relieve his burden or because she had good intentions does not oblige her to remain on the throne once it becomes clear that other people are preventing the government from falling apart.

What I find inconsistent is the double standard.

When accountability is discussed, Yona is a poorly educated sixteen-year-old whose brain is still developing. When authority, obedience and praise are distributed, she becomes the legitimate, inspiring and extraordinary sovereign who will lead her people towards happiness.

She cannot be too young to bear responsibility while remaining old enough to retain all the power and prestige. Well, technically she can, because the manga allows it. Coherent it is not.

“She is too young” only works as a complete defence if it leads to a political consequence: she should not govern yet.

If the conclusion is instead that she is too young, so everyone else must perform most of the work while she remains queen and Hak proclaims how fortunate the people are to belong to her, that is not the protection of a minor. It is the protection of a protagonist.

And Yona never seems “awfully young” when praise is being handed out. At those moments she ages with miraculous speed.

One can hope that she loses her naivety through experience.

I hope for something more concrete: that she makes a serious mistake, that nobody immediately rescues her from it, that the mistake has real consequences, that she has to admit what she did, and that she learns because reality finally refuses to cushion the impact.

That would be growth to me.

Expecting her to lose her naivety through experience while Soo-won, Kye-sook, Hak and half the kingdom absorb every blow is rather like expecting someone to learn to swim without getting wet.

Life is unfair, and much of their pain was unnecessary. Unfortunately, when an important conviction collapses, depressive tendencies and the feeling of losing the ground beneath one’s feet can follow. I have personal experience with this state, so it seems natural to me that both of them feel this way.

Life can be truly awful. I can certainly attest to that. But it also contains a few very small good things, and I hold on to those tiny things to keep moving forward.

I am sorry that you have gone through such painful experiences. I sincerely hope you are doing better now.

If you consider both systems, King Il’s and Yu-hon’s, as forms of cults, you may understand it better. There was a great deal of brainwashing and manipulation that directly affected both Soo-won and Zeno.

I am sorry, but instead of thinking that “the unnecessary nature of these sacrifices may be one of the story’s morals,” my immediate thought was that the cult of King Il and the cult of Yu-hon have simply been replaced by the cult of Yona, now operating at full strength.

If the problem was the worship of Il, the worship of Yu-hon, blind obedience, faith placed above evidence and people being absorbed into a central figure, then the ending should have broken that pattern.

It does not break it. It recycles it with Yona at the centre.

Hak believes in her even when reality contradicts that belief. Collective achievements are attributed to her. Other people compensate for her limitations. Her charisma becomes legitimacy. Her youth excuses her failures, but her authority remains unquestioned. Criticism repeatedly dissolves into “she works very hard” or “she inspires people.”

That makes it difficult for me to read “the sacrifices were unnecessary” as the central moral, because the system that produces personal sacrifice around an idealised figure is still functioning.

Soo-won continues working. Hak continues dissolving into his function. Other people continue supplying knowledge, competence, experience and suffering. Yona continues receiving the symbolic centre.

The story does not seem to say, “Do not build cults.”

It seems to say, “Choose the correct person to worship.”

And naturally, the correct choice is Yona. How revolutionary.

Soo-won’s task is difficult. I do not envy him having to persuade those two.

But it is not Soo-won’s task.

Hak and Yona are responsible for leaving their own comfortable bubble. Soo-won may confront them because he cares about them or because their decisions affect Kouka, but he should not become their lifelong tutor in applied reality.

He has already done enough. He understood Il’s failure, seized power, rebuilt the kingdom, responded to wars and crises, endured the Crimson Illness, lost the throne and was left physically damaged. He should not now be expected to continue supplying the judgment and intellectual structure required by the people who receive the applause.

Let him grow potatoes. Let him discover whether he prefers turnips. Let him read for three days without anyone asking him how to save Kouka. Let Gulfan return to him and spend his time frightening crows, since the bird has apparently also been requisitioned for Yonistic messenger service.

If the kingdom collapses the moment Soo-won stops correcting the new queen, the conclusion is not that Soo-won owes Kouka another lifetime of sacrifice.

The conclusion is that Yona was not ready to receive the crown.

But do you not think that more readers may realise in the final chapter that something is wrong with Hak’s perception?

Honestly, I do not think the final chapter will cause most readers to interpret Hak differently from the way they have interpreted him throughout the manga.

I would be pleasantly surprised if the story finally introduced genuine criticism of his perception. But after years of presenting this devotion as the height of romance, I do not find that very likely.

I hope very much for a spin-off or something similar. I do not understand the mangaka’s decision. As you said, resolving everything would require around two hundred pages.

Please, no.

A spin-off would no longer feel like hope to me. It would feel like a threat.

In theory, it could resolve many of the abandoned issues. But that would require confidence that the manga intended to confront those issues rigorously. After the Chalice arc, that confidence is buried beneath the mausoleum alongside causality.

At this point, the prudent response seems to be to leave the story as it is.

I have already built my own version, one in which consequences exist and the characters retain their dignity.

Do you honestly believe Soo-won would retire? He would never do that. Unfortunately for him, fortunately for everybody else.

I do believe it. In fact, that is what will happen in my imagination.

Soo-won will retire. While Yona and her government discover whether devotion can replace administration, Soo-won will be drinking tea peacefully at his residence with his wife, Lili.

Who can prevent me from imagining that? The narrative cannot. It has nearly ended. The canon no longer has jurisdiction over my imagination.

Naturally, if the final chapter makes my imagined continuation impossible, I will have to invent another one. But that seems unlikely.

The entire country would fall into another King Il era if Soo-won were not there.

Then Yona cannot govern. It really is that simple.

If the survival of the kingdom requires the former king to continue thinking, reforming, correcting and challenging the new queen, then the abdication transferred only the title, not the work.

Soo-won probably would not retire voluntarily, because duty has held him by the throat since childhood. That is precisely why imagining his retirement feels reparative.

Yona’s inability to preserve the kingdom without him does not create an infinite moral obligation for Soo-won. It demonstrates that crowning her was a mistake. He does not owe the rest of his life to concealing that mistake.

The future was left open enough that my continuation remains compatible with what has been shown, unless the final chapter gives us a time-skip and explicitly establishes another outcome.

Given the gaiden’s pace, it seems more likely that Hak will say “Princess” fourteen times than that we will receive a detailed institutional reform.

Though I believe he might enjoy growing potatoes.

If the field is large, one ends the day with an aching back from bending down so much. Rather like the grape harvest.

Yes, this would be a rather good transition and maybe this would lead to maintain said council, which could someday mean real representatives of the people. In the case the council would be formed by voted politicians in the future. I mean, the system could be adapted, since I believe, that whoever takes the power wouldn´t want to give it up, even after Yona was ready.

Your solution sounds very good, though.

If Soo-won, Kye-sook and the others are carrying most of the workload, that already resembles an informal regency, with one peculiar arrangement: other people govern, Yona reigns, and the narrative transfers the credit upwards. If that situation were formally acknowledged, it would at least be institutionally honest. The story could say plainly that Yona is not ready, that she is learning under a governing council, and that she will assume full responsibility when she has demonstrated that she can exercise it.

Possible. It would also remove the god-like aura off her. I would be on board, but I am not sure, if most of her fans would not be utterly disappointed.

I am sorry, but instead of thinking that “the unnecessary nature of these sacrifices may be one of the story’s morals,” my immediate thought was that the cult of King Il and the cult of Yu-hon have simply been replaced by the cult of Yona, now operating at full strength.

The danger is there, you are right. If Soo Won does not take action, Yona will become basically a worse version of her father. People might even tolerate it more, since it is glorious Yona, after all.

I know, I know, that Hak and Yona could be better in that regard, but the truth is, this might be not the case. Soo Won, however, is reasonable in comparison. And reason has to reign in Yona´s glory or we will end up with fate.

Her youth explains her limitations. It does not justify allowing her to exercise an authority for which that same youth supposedly makes her unfit. Yona also has the agency to conclude that she is not yet prepared to rule. Accepting the crown because she could not bring herself to refuse Soo-won, because she wanted to relieve his burden or because she had good intentions does not oblige her to remain on the throne once it becomes clear that other people are preventing the government from falling apart.

You are still talking about the person, who has jumped in a rain of arrows; who does not know accountability, because she is prone to fall for illusions and was overprotected her whole life.

Everybody else has always rescued her, and Soo Won has promised to support her, so she thought it was alright.

Yes a normal 16 year old would have likely refrained from this. But this is the "darling of the heavens", so her point of view has been severly screwed by her great fame and the fact, that the dragon warriors were her sacrifices, bleeding in her stead.

Yona hardly reflects. Rarely. She is a more emotional person and reason is not exactly her best friend.

Therefore it is reasonable for Yona to be so naive, unfortunately.

If the problem was the worship of Il, the worship of Yu-hon, blind obedience, faith placed above evidence and people being absorbed into a central figure, then the ending should have broken that pattern. It does not break it. It recycles it with Yona at the centre. Hak believes in her even when reality contradicts that belief. Collective achievements are attributed to her. Other people compensate for her limitations. Her charisma becomes legitimacy. Her youth excuses her failures, but her authority remains unquestioned. Criticism repeatedly dissolves into “she works very hard” or “she inspires people.” That makes it difficult for me to read “the sacrifices were unnecessary” as the central moral, because the system that produces personal sacrifice around an idealised figure is still functioning. Soo-won continues working. Hak continues dissolving into his function. Other people continue supplying knowledge, competence, experience and suffering. Yona continues receiving the symbolic centre. The story does not seem to say, “Do not build cults.” It seems to say, “Choose the correct person to worship.” And naturally, the correct choice is Yona. How revolutionary.

Why do you think, the mangaka is showing this friction? If she was really persuaded, that you just need the "correct person to worship", then we would see no problems or Yona "magically" resolving it. However, we see Yona struggling now for 3 chapters.

We see a good part of the generals being unsatisfied: the former Geuntae (Kulifu has most likely hardly any opinion), General Kyoga, even General Tae Woo does not seem to be so sold on Yona.

(Tae Woo is is bright, reasonable, maybe it was just my impression; it appeared more that he was himself rather reluctant, while Mundoek the great believer was - of course- convinced) and Jon Gi does appear to favor Yona. Especially interesting that instead of Tae Woo (reason) his "other half" Hendai made an appearance. And Hendai is all feeling and motivation, but has little reason in comparison. Tae Woo was literally sick in that chapter.

Honestly I was fascinated how Tae Jun, the dumbest person in the entire manga (sorry if you should be a fan, but Tae Jun is really not the brightest light on the cake), was the first figure to appear in the first chapter of the gaiden: Tae Jun as the former pampered son of the former Fire General is such a clear mirror to Yona, while his brother (a mirror to Soo Won) appeared far more reluctant in the next chapter. Kyoga (reason) was horrified and worried. For a good reason.

What I do not understand is, if this were truly the 4 last chapters with 0 continuations, no spin-off ect...then I don´t understand the direction. Then I don´t understand, why the narrative collides with Hak point of view.

The narrative should approve and cement Hak´s point of view, not contradict him.

We are - like you said it- back at the beginning. Big problems have arisen. Reason should be stronger in order to avoid a next King Il, aka Queen Yona. But usually you do not show this until the second-to-last chapter.

But it is not Soo-won’s task. Hak and Yona are responsible for leaving their own comfortable bubble. Soo-won may confront them because he cares about them or because their decisions affect Kouka, but he should not become their lifelong tutor in applied reality. He has already done enough. He understood Il’s failure, seized power, rebuilt the kingdom, responded to wars and crises, endured the Crimson Illness, lost the throne and was left physically damaged. He should not now be expected to continue supplying the judgment and intellectual structure required by the people who receive the applause. Let him grow potatoes. Let him discover whether he prefers turnips. Let him read for three days without anyone asking him how to save Kouka. Let Gulfan return to him and spend his time frightening crows, since the bird has apparently also been requisitioned for Yonistic messenger service. If the kingdom collapses the moment Soo-won stops correcting the new queen, the conclusion is not that Soo-won owes Kouka another lifetime of sacrifice. The conclusion is that Yona was not ready to receive the crown.

If not him, who else? Can we let a whole country decline in another King Il´s era? Do you know, how many people would suffer again?

Also Soo Won cares too deeply for the wellbeing of the people, he would never run away from this task.

Hak can be "sharp" under Soo Won´s influence. His way of thinking has seaped into Hak as well. And he might lose a little bit of his delusional attitude.

And even Yona finds her drive and reason, if Soo Won pushes her.

Of course, Soo Won needs people who support him, as well. Handling Yona and Hak is not the most fun task I could imagine.

Honestly, I do not think the final chapter will cause most readers to interpret Hak differently from the way they have interpreted him throughout the manga. I would be pleasantly surprised if the story finally introduced genuine criticism of his perception. But after years of presenting this devotion as the height of romance, I do not find that very likely.

However, you mean, that his point of view is literally contradicted by the narrative...Don´t you think, that this would make a difference?

If we literally have a dissonance between "two stories" - Hak´s and the one of the objective truth?

Life can be truly awful. I can certainly attest to that. But it also contains a few very small good things, and I hold on to those tiny things to keep moving forward. I am sorry that you have gone through such painful experiences. I sincerely hope you are doing better now.

Thank you and I am sorry to hear, that you had similar experiences. Yes, right now my life goes in a better direction. Finally.

Please, no. A spin-off would no longer feel like hope to me. It would feel like a threat. In theory, it could resolve many of the abandoned issues. But that would require confidence that the manga intended to confront those issues rigorously. After the Chalice arc, that confidence is buried beneath the mausoleum alongside causality. At this point, the prudent response seems to be to leave the story as it is. I have already built my own version, one in which consequences exist and the characters retain their dignity.

The manga appears to have an overall pretty logical structure. Even the mausoleum arc was narratively a reasonable conclusion, even though it was not so spectacular like I would have desired.

Unfortunately I can only demonstrate this in a couple of weeks time, as I still need more time with my meta. It consoled me a little to adumbrate the meaning and structure a little, since I have followed this work for about 10 years.

I would appreciate a spin-off or further chapters as it could be solved. Maybe not all, but the most important issues at least.

I do believe it. In fact, that is what will happen in my imagination. Soo-won will retire. While Yona and her government discover whether devotion can replace administration, Soo-won will be drinking tea peacefully at his residence with his wife, Lili. Who can prevent me from imagining that? The narrative cannot. It has nearly ended. The canon no longer has jurisdiction over my imagination. Naturally, if the final chapter makes my imagined continuation impossible, I will have to invent another one. But that seems unlikely.

Fanfiction, ahoy! I wish him all the best.

Then Yona cannot govern. It really is that simple. If the survival of the kingdom requires the former king to continue thinking, reforming, correcting and challenging the new queen, then the abdication transferred only the title, not the work. Soo-won probably would not retire voluntarily, because duty has held him by the throat since childhood. That is precisely why imagining his retirement feels reparative. Yona’s inability to preserve the kingdom without him does not create an infinite moral obligation for Soo-won. It demonstrates that crowning her was a mistake. He does not owe the rest of his life to concealing that mistake. The future was left open enough that my continuation remains compatible with what has been shown, unless the final chapter gives us a time-skip and explicitly establishes another outcome. Given the gaiden’s pace, it seems more likely that Hak will say “Princess” fourteen times than that we will receive a detailed institutional reform.

Na, she cannot govern right now. But I doubt it, that Soo Won will ever give up. But one can imagine, what not is...

If the field is large, one ends the day with an aching back from bending down so much. Rather like the grape harvest. But it can be enormous fun, especially when the family works together. You laugh a great deal.

I agree with your character analyses, and I really enjoy the way you dissect them: Soo-won would not retire because he feels responsible; Hak behaves this way because he is loyal and idealistic; and Yona struggles because she is young and unprepared.

My concern, however, lies elsewhere. These personalities and circumstances were themselves written choices.

For example, “Soo-won would never abandon Kouka” explains his behaviour within the story, and I completely agree with your analysis on that point. What troubles me is why the author chose an ending in which he remains unable to rest and continues carrying the practical responsibilities of ruling, while Yona receives the title, authority and recognition.

Both readings can coexist, but I think this difference explains why we sometimes appear to be answering different questions.

Indeed. It makes no sense.

It is wonderfully strange, that she does show plainly that Yona is failing/has huge problems.

If I truly wished to end a manga and wished to make money with it, I would not waste the last 4 chapters on tension, but would show complete bliss after years. Give the fans, what they desire and start a new series.

She could have showed Yona as a competent ruler years later. Nobody would have said something, or almost nobody. Soo Won could have really retired and planted potatoes. The former dragon warriors with their families.

Then Yona could have married Hak. Their kids ect...

A little nice life at the end.

I also wonder, because this is supposed to be a shojo - so for relatively young girls. Should a work like this not have a happy end? Bitter ends or literal misery can be used in fiction for adults, but for young adults? And above else she demonstrates like this, that all the pain was completely in vain, if Yona is King Il 2.0

My concern, however, lies elsewhere. These personalities and circumstances were themselves written choices.

I can only come to 2 conclusions. If you have another possibility in mind, I am all ears:

This is not the end she actually wished for. She altered a part of the story for a reason. Either she had miscalculated how long the manga would be and she had literal no space left. Or editors were against something and this end is an act of defiance. Personally I don´t think, the last option can be true. Nobody would destroy their own livelihood for such a reason.

There is actually a continuation for this manga.

In any case, I genuinely enjoy discussing this with you, and I appreciate how thoughtful and respectful our conversation is.

A work aimed at young readers can have a bitter, painful or ambiguous ending. It does not need to end with weddings, children and happily cultivated potatoes in order to be valid.

It could have been sad and still magnificent. But it would have needed to confront the central issues it had developed: the cost of the dragon cycle, the Crimson Dragon’s responsibility, Soo-won’s fate, the dragons’ actual freedom, Yona’s maturity and Hak’s identity.

Misery is not automatically mature or profound. What matters is whether the ending meaningfully fulfils what the story has built.

Above all, this ending demonstrates that all the pain was completely in vain if Yona becomes King Il 2.0.

Exactly. The gaiden leaves open the possibility that the kingdom may repeat the same disaster, except that Soo-won remains nearby to prevent it.

That makes his ending even crueler. Soo-won overthrows Il, rebuilds Kouka, abdicates, and then must remain there to prevent Il’s daughter from reproducing the system he corrected.

Marvellous.

I can only reach two conclusions. If you have another possibility in mind, I am all ears.

I can think of several other possibilities, although naturally they are only hypotheses.

1. Kusanagi sincerely believes that this is a satisfying ending.

This is perhaps the most uncomfortable possibility, but I do not think it should be dismissed.

She may consider Yona’s coronation a sufficient reward; Hak serving her romantic; Soo-won continuing to assist her proof of reconciliation; and the former dragon warriors becoming human a complete happy ending for them.

She may also regard the political difficulties as evidence that Yona is working hard rather than evidence that she is unprepared, and she may consider the open future hopeful.

In other words, perhaps she simply does not perceive the contradictions that part of the readership sees. No editorial conspiracy or hidden continuation would be required. An authorial blind spot would be enough.

2. She changed direction near the end.

Perhaps she attempted to create a more “realistic” conclusion: ruling remains difficult, trauma does not disappear, nobody receives perfect happiness and reconstruction has only just begun.

That intention would not be inherently wrong. The problem is that an open or bittersweet ending only works after the story’s central conflicts have been resolved. Here, much of what feels “open” also feels unfinished.

3. Sixteen years of serialisation may have fundamentally altered the work and its author.

Sixteen years is an extraordinary length of time. It means constant deadlines, serial publication, editorial pressure, fandom expectations, physical exhaustion and the need to continue using popular characters.

After so many years, Kusanagi may simply have wanted to finish, even though important subjects remained unresolved. Perhaps she no longer wanted to construct the ideal ending, but merely to reach an ending without collapsing herself.

She may also no longer be the same writer who introduced certain mysteries sixteen years ago. Her interpretation of the characters may have changed. She may prefer a different tone now, or have developed a different understanding of love, power and sacrifice. She may have lost interest in some political plots while becoming more interested in emotional or mythical ones.

There is also the problem of serialisation itself. An author may introduce an element because it works in the moment without yet knowing its final consequences. Later, she may develop themes she had not originally anticipated or discover that an early idea leads somewhere morally uncomfortable.

But the published material remains fixed.

Unlike an unpublished manuscript, a serialised manga cannot be revised from the beginning whenever later ideas reveal weaknesses in the earlier structure. The present story must adapt to what has already been printed.

If Kusanagi’s perspective changed but she could not rewrite the previous sixteen years, she may have ended up trying to preserve two incompatible interpretations at once.

For example:

The dragon bond was coercive, but also genuine and beautiful.

The gods condemned generations to suffering, but were merely “rude.”

Soo-won performed the political work, but Yona deserved the crown.

Hak’s identity was absorbed into Yona, but this was presented as romantic fulfilment.

Actually rather rarely. Most fiction aimed at children has a positive ending for the protagonists. In educational works the main character learns something by the end and therefore it might not be utter bliss, but it is very rarely a real crushing misery. At least nowadays. Literal misery has less sense for children´s stories. Older stories and fairy tales could be quite cruel, though. In an educational sense.

For younger adults or teenagers there is of course a slightly greater chance that the ending can be a misery like in the Panem series. And even the Panem series leads to the conventional good ending with marriage and children at the end. Katniss has scars, but her life is not completely ruined. it is not "Les Miserables". Readers of all ages, but especially younger readers identify with the main character, after all.

Shojo mangas, at least the ones I have seen (I am not up to date, I admit it. I am not a girl anymore), tend to have a rather positive ending. The girls identify with the female protagonist and it is often a sort of escapism, sometimes the story intends to motivate the reader.

I think I remember only one shojo manga with a real tragedy for the protagonist: Rose of Versailles with Lady Oscar.

It could have been sad and still magnificent. But it would have needed to confront the central issues it had developed: the cost of the dragon cycle, the Crimson Dragon’s responsibility, Soo-won’s fate, the dragons’ actual freedom, Yona’s maturity and Hak’s identity.

I would argue the literal title "Akatsuki no Yona"/Dawn of Yona" does not allow a sad ending. There must be a positive effect.

"Dawn" basically implies that after a (long) night, the "sun"/the positive change finally appears over the horizon. Not only in form of a romance or we could have spared us the whole political conflicts.

An author/director/mangaka ect...does have to know, what the readers will likely expect. You have readers and audience and they pay you for the service of creating a story for them. If you completely overwhelmingly disappoint their expectations we speak conventionally from a "bad story". Of course this is a subjective estimation.

Even though the way the story may have been structured was original, logical and senseful. If the mangaka/author is unable to convey said message or messages, the author´s intention, then - unfortunately- the pandora´s box remains closed.

And this - I believe - happened in Dawn of Yona. The way the story is made is good, but the message(s) is/(are) not conveyed.

it is there - that is how I concluded my analysis (though strictly speaking, I am still not at my end). I would have to make a lots of posts to demonstrate this. It - the messages - are there. (But you have to basically dive into symbolisms, religion and japanese history...to make sense).

And she would have not needed too much more, to demonstrate this. But Kusanagi would have to finally express them in a more direct manner. Fundamental important developments - at least as I see them- were brushed over or aren´t clear to the reader. Especially the Western readers. I think there was a higher chance for Japanese readers. Most likely she did not think that her work would blow so up.

1. Kusanagi sincerely believes that this is a satisfying ending. This is perhaps the most uncomfortable possibility, but I do not think it should be dismissed.

She may consider Yona’s coronation a sufficient reward; Hak serving her romantic; Soo-won continuing to assist her proof of reconciliation; and the former dragon warriors becoming human a complete happy ending for them.

She may also regard the political difficulties as evidence that Yona is working hard rather than evidence that she is unprepared, and she may consider the open future hopeful.

In other words, perhaps she simply does not perceive the contradictions that part of the readership sees. No editorial conspiracy or hidden continuation would be required. An authorial blind spot would be enough.

Since I believe, I know her structure, I doubt it, honestly. I cannot believe it, that somebody, who was able to contruct "Dawn of Yona" so cleverly, would end it like this - the message(s) are hanging in the air.

But to be absolutely open, would most likely damage her, but still I would have been content, if she made some of the harmless messages more apparent. (Though I am most likely just too dramatic).

2. She changed direction near the end. Perhaps she attempted to create a more “realistic” conclusion: ruling remains difficult, trauma does not disappear, nobody receives perfect happiness and reconstruction has only just begun. That intention would not be inherently wrong. The problem is that an open or bittersweet ending only works after the story’s central conflicts have been resolved. Here, much of what feels “open” also feels unfinished.

I would say, I do think, this might be more it. Especially since she might have not known, that it would also reach Western Readers; generally other countries.

But I still wondering, if this is really solely dependant on location. Do others really understand it easier?

3. Sixteen years of serialisation may have fundamentally altered the work and its author. Sixteen years is an extraordinary length of time. It means constant deadlines, serial publication, editorial pressure, fandom expectations, physical exhaustion and the need to continue using popular characters. After so many years, Kusanagi may simply have wanted to finish, even though important subjects remained unresolved. Perhaps she no longer wanted to construct the ideal ending, but merely to reach an ending without collapsing herself. She may also no longer be the same writer who introduced certain mysteries sixteen years ago. Her interpretation of the characters may have changed. She may prefer a different tone now, or have developed a different understanding of love, power and sacrifice. She may have lost interest in some political plots while becoming more interested in emotional or mythical ones. There is also the problem of serialisation itself. An author may introduce an element because it works in the moment without yet knowing its final consequences. Later, she may develop themes she had not originally anticipated or discover that an early idea leads somewhere morally uncomfortable. But the published material remains fixed. Unlike an unpublished manuscript, a serialised manga cannot be revised from the beginning whenever later ideas reveal weaknesses in the earlier structure. The present story must adapt to what has already been printed. If Kusanagi’s perspective changed but she could not rewrite the previous sixteen years, she may have ended up trying to preserve two incompatible interpretations at once.

The structure and symbols remain pretty consistent throughout the story even if years are apart between different points. However, it might still be relevant, that she changed something along the way.

She extended her work. This was mentioned once -as far as I remember. For example: *The dragon bond was coercive, but also genuine and beautiful. *The gods condemned generations to suffering, but were merely “rude.” *Soo-won performed the political work, but Yona deserved the crown. *Hak’s identity was absorbed into Yona, but this was presented as romantic fulfilment. These possibilities may explain the result. But only Kusanagi knows the truth. The rest of us can only examine the finished work and propose possibilities.

In case of the questions I suggest the following interpretation:

The dragon warriors were coerced,

- as it is even repeated at the end, that neither Jae ha nor Kija really know, if their feelings were real for Yona.

-three dragon warriors leave, the forth,

-Zeno, stays, as Hiryuu Castle is the only home, he ever knew. Zeno has been so long a dragon warrior, that there is nothing left, that is not connected to his fate. So he is flailing, depressive. He basically does not know, how to be anymore. Even after the bond ended.

-Hak has to persuade the dragon warriors to come back. This time they hesitate. In the past they were literally brainwashed to follow them.Because:

-the three others, who have not been so gravely damaged as Zeno are trying to built a life of their own.

There were still feelings regardless of the coercion.

-the dragon warriors stayed for Yona´s coronation, despite being free.

-the dragon warriors still care for each other and Zeno. Shin ha searched him and brought him to look at the stars. It is only them, as the 4 really have created a stronger bond than even the bond between Yona and them. They have fought and defended each other. Time and time again. This is clear, whenever you look at the fights. And they still care for each other, because they were not replacable for each other.

Out of the manipulation there were "real bonds" created. Not necessarily with Yona at the centre of all existance.

The dragon gods condamned generations, because

-they did perceive human beings as objects. Things.

-Therefore we have "the Shield" and "the Sword" - Hak and Soo Won. But in the "prophecy"/"vow" there are no human beings mentioned, but things.

-If you perceive people as objects you can literally do with them, whatever and whenever you want it.

-They can kill them again and again. But it does not matter. Because the human beings are replacable. Whenever there is one killed, Wup. There is a new one.

Be honest, do you care for the pain of flies? Because human beings range in the same place for the dragon gods.

(This is one of the repeating patterns of this manga. It repeats itself time and time again.)

Yona forgave them still

-Well, this is Yona. I would still not be able to forgive somebody like them.

-But well, Yona is not able to know all the cruelties and

-She has also problems to really acknowledge hurtful realities. She literally does not understand Zeno.

-Yona has vowed to search for a different way and not to wish for revenge. And she does mean this seriously. Yona is idealistic, but she also pretty strong in her determination, if she wants to. She does not wish to repay the pain with further pain. As this would merely lead to even greater misery. She speaks of the "Cycle of Hartred" for a reason. She is idealistic, but she truly means it.

-Yona basically understands through her own experience, what inflicting pain means and she knows, what it creates, when she lifts her sword against the ones, who have hurt her.

She had vowed to search for a way for freedom. And this was one of her steps.

*Soo-won performed the political work, but Yona deserved the crown.

this is literally one point, that could have been resolved, if she just made the manga longer!!!

*Hak’s identity was absorbed into Yona, but this was presented as romantic fulfilment.

@matcha-chai-latte

While he was “playing” priest, he never heard the gods while telling everyone heavens are protecting them. Not then and not ever since, until he slit his throat in the mausoleum.

Maybe it helps, if I mention, that we literally not know from a priest or another religious leader if he actually has this holy connection or not.

Yes, Zeno lied and it was even a lie that he held towards himself and not only the others.

Because Zeno even believed he would act like King Hiryuu had wished for. But the funny thing is, that Hiryuu told him for 10-16 years that Zeno won´t fight. And Zeno did fight.

Zeno made this decisions thinking it might be the will of Hiryuu, his father, his god, but actually they were his own decisions.

And even the text tells us this:

"I don´t want the people to get hurt".

"That is King Hiryuu´s wish".

he declared then. But it was Zeno´s decision to follow in King Hiryuu´s footsteps.

Just like Soo Won, who had believed to have replaced his father:

Soo Won literally believed to need to replace his father.

And he also lied and killed people.

However, the people do not care, because it depends on the effect.

Would the people really be so disappointed, if they heard, that Zeno had protected them for 20 years mostly alone?

Hell no! Because effectively Zeno protected them.

If it was a god, or the teletubbies, who cares at the end?

If this guy still could still hear the voice of the gods a little bit?

Really, had Gobi a holy connection to the gods? Nobody can prove it.

Ik soo helped the people, if he had this power or not. The people literally don´t know, that he is a priest. And so did Zeno helpe the people with or without his godly power.

We’re talking about a fantasy world so pretty much their priests are different from real ones.

Im just saying that it seems the priests Kouka had tended to have some “connection” with the gods, had visions, heard their voices, could convey the “will of the gods” etc. So that’s a specific common trait of priests in Kouka. Zeno is sure not “unrelated” to the gods but if he didn’t have any connection with them, then he was not truly a priest. His intention was to keep people in the castle from panicking about the dragons leaving them, not to be a real priest for itself.

Zeno tells the people Hiryuu’s medallion is a relic from the heavens (that connects him to the gods) and he will be now conveying the will of the heavens to them all. That’s why they accepted him as their priest. In reality though he was never hearing any gods and could never convey anything. If he was not acting for their sake, then I don’t know what he was doing. I don’t know how else to explain😅

Why? Who could prove this, if they heard the gods or not? Visions or hearing the gods was a personal experience. In a fantasy world or not.

If they had actually heard it, imagined it (like Joan D´Arc) or lied about it? Who could literally prove it?

Nobody.

Im just saying that it seems the priests Kouka had tended to have some “connection” with the gods, had visions, heard their voices, could convey the “will of the gods” etc. So that’s a specific common trait of priests in Kouka. Zeno is sure not “unrelated” to the gods but if he didn’t have any connection with them, then he was not truly a priest. His intention was to keep people in the castle from panicking about the dragons leaving them, not to be a real priest for itself.

The people believed in him, therefore he was a priest.

Zeno tells the people Hiryuu’s medallion is a relic from the heavens (that connects him to the gods) and he will be now conveying the will of the heavens to them all.

In a way, he might have believed this, too. After all, he believed he would do, what King Hiryuu had wanted. So he had conveyed the King´s will.

But it did not actually matter.

The dragon gods were only specifically related to Kouka and Gobi is not from Kouka, so I’d bet he didn’t hear shit.

We saw Ik-soo conveying the will of the gods to Yona? Not just the prophecy, he said Hak could die without the dragons, which ties to what Yona saw in her dream when she was 14-15. Said that Yona’s life will lead to Kouka “rumbling”. And clearly knew who the “sword and shield” were, said they’re not yet ready. Wasn’t birds that chirped him all that in the ear.

Kashi and Yona could see the future sent by divine forces. The past priest instantly felt Yong-hi’s blood was Hiryuu’s, and clearly as he was the main priest, that was far from the only thing he could do, either Iksoo or Kashi said he taught them a lot. Imo clearly they were not hanging out in temples for nothing. They could definitely see and feel things others couldn’t.

Zeno like I said is no ordinary ofc, as a dragon he could also “feel” things but again, ever since he became a dragon warrior, he did not hear neither voices nor have visions or whatever. The gods became silent to him.

In a way, he might have believed this, too.

Yes, could be. I think he was definitely trying to call out to them but with no avail. Just like we saw him do when Kaya was dying.

Who knows?

He glasped the hands together and then was speaking rashly this words. It could have been true or not true.

If Zeno had not heard this vow already, we would be unsure, if he had been spoken the truth or not.

Not just the prophecy, he said Hak could die without the dragons, which ties to what Yona saw in her dream when she was 14-15.

Yona does not remember this, though. He could have also invented something and nobody would have known. Could have hardly known that Zeno is immortal.

Like this you do -usually - not know, if the priest said the truth or not.

Said that Yona’s life will lead to Kouka “rumbling”. And clearly knew who the “sword and shield” were, said they’re not yet ready. Wasn’t birds that chirped him all that in the ear.

Do we know it? Francis of Assis could talk with birds, if I remember correctly.

Did he know it or not? Have the "gods", whoever they were - if the dragon gods or other "higher entities"- really told him more? Merely from the words he spoke, you could hardly derive this.

So he could be really just some mediator, who spoke the words he heard directly or not. I also wonder about your interpretation, as if would imply, he would be alright with "forgiving" Soo Won, who was the son of Yu hon. The very person, who had nearly killed all the people.

I also wonder, how Iksoo has survive. King Il was shown merely to carry Kashi out. Where was Iksoo when everything started? How was he able to survive? Was there really just the headpriest, Iksoo and Kashi in the whole temple?

Kashi and Yona could see the future sent by divine forces. The past priest instantly felt Yong-hi’s blood was Hiryuu’s, and clearly as he was the main priest, that was far from the only thing he could do,

They were intuitive people. Some people feel a little more. It is a knowledge, that is not entirely explored.

About the headpriest...We literally don´t know it. Zeno was also headpriest with 0 power in that direction. It can work.

But in theory you could be schizophrenic and hear voices and be persuaded you heard the voice of the gods. How do we know, if Joan D´Arc really heard the voice of god, when she believed she was chosen to rescue France? Would that have made her somehow worse, if she had been a little bit crazy or even lied?

She was still so succesful, that a couple of men decided they wished to eliminate her. Due to her influence. Fate can have an amazing power. Self-fulfilling prophecies exist.

I have known a woman, who was convinced that angels were speaking with her. I could hardly disprove her, right?

Imo clearly they were not hanging out in temples for nothing. They could definitely see and feel things others couldn’t.

The most prominent example for a priest in that series hanged out in a temple without having any power.

Kashi wished for the strange dreams, for her intuition to have some deeper meaning. She saw some scenes and in Yona´s case it did not even come true. Zeno did not have the heart to kill Hak. And I doubt this guy would have ever had the heart to kill them.

The mangaka had confirmed, that when Zeno had transformed and he tried to threathen them, had tried to push them to a safer place. So that they would not be buried under the rubble.

So what did Yona actually see? The future or pictures contorted by her fear?

That the dragon gods were only related to Kouka or that Gobi couldn’t hear them? I’d say it’s logical since Gobi himself is unrelated to Kouka and the gods are very much only related to Kouka.

Both. We saw in that strange light at the lake even gods or higher beings from other parts of the world. And it would be strange and illogical, why all the gods, every higher being was a Kouka-only-thing.

Besides if Gobi could hear gods or not, we would not know again. Not all of this beings have to be "good", after all.

That reminds me of the stormlight series, where Dalinar believed to hear god. However it was merely a spirit he heard. And a memento of a god, who used to be just a simple human being.

Or even of Berserk, who appears to be a progenitor of this work. There gods and devils are basically the same.

I don’t think he ever claimed anything like that either unless I forgot it. If he said so then who knows but I don’t remember him having any special intuition or anything. He was just a freaky prick.

Oh. So you actually think he lied? Can’t help that I guess.

However as we saw his information turned out to be very true and way too concrete to be a mere guess or a prediction of a schizophrenic. My question then is how did he come up with the prophecy, with Hak dying (exactly what Yona saw in her dream before everything), with Kouka being in trouble in the future if Yona lives. He said it and it was all true. Who told him that if you don’t think it was the gods (who are literally a thing in their world).

Did Kashi also lie when she foretold Yona’s future? Or her own death? Who showed her that? Is she also then a schizophrenic? Idk maybe they’re all just a country of schizophrenics but we’re not talking about history or the real world but a fantasy shoujo world where a red-haired girl commanded superpowered boys with dragon body parts. Khm. Squirrels that battle bears (gaiden 3).

If that’s their reality then what why would there not be people other than the dragon warriors who can hear the voices of heavens? Especially if those gods are crazy evil shits with the mentality of toddlers?

Zeno could hear the voices of gods before. But as those gods went crazy that Hiryuu’s soul didn’t return to them, they abandoned him there all alone. It’s not Zeno’s fault he couldn’t hear their voices.

So theory time

If seriously, my intake is that the gods were doing everything they could to get Hiryuu back. Bruh they killed Hiryuu himself as they cursed him with the illness, and then his whole bloodline hoping it would lure him back. It didn’t work so what if they started sending certain people visions for that same aim - eventually get Hiryuu back. Look how it played out? I believe Kashi saw a vision of Soo-won killing Il (otherwise why would Il hate Soo-won since childhood), so Il hated Soo-won and was wary of Yuhon due to their conflict (again because of gods). Then Kashi saw Yona would die if she went with her to Yong-hi’s residence. Yona didn’t go and Kashi died. For that Il kills Yuhon. Then for that Soo-won indeed kills Il, tosses Yona out. Yona then magically survives and meets Ik-soo who is also aware of “gods will” and guides her on the path of Hiryuu. And then Yona herself starts getting visions which partially triggers Zeno to act, Yona has more visions and as a result ends up in the chalice where the gods capture her finally.

All that and also by the wish of “fate”, Yona also met Hak, an orphan out of nowhere that became the person that kept her alive her whole life (for the gods to have her alive and well when she gets to them).

Could sending certain people visions and letting them hear the gods have been all along a long-term evil plan of the trapped gods to get Hiryuu back? They were the ones sending people visions and speaking to them while being corrupted mastermind crackheads all along, so why not? (omg my brain is off now I was typing fast phew😮‍💨).

And it would be strange and illogical, why all the gods, every higher being was a Kouka-only-thing.

I don’t think gods are only a Kouka thing. I think that the whole thing with the dragon gods (king hiryuu and the dragon warriors) is not a continent-wide religion everyone is following but merely a legend inside of Kouka the majority of people didn’t even believe in. In Kai as we saw they have completely different legends (the magical lake for example). That is a legend of only Kai (as the lake is in Kai), and the Hiryuu one is only of Kouka (as Hiryuu was Kouka’s king).

No, because we got the confirmation later. But theoretically, we do not know, if somebody has visions or hears some strange god.

Since it is a personal experience. And I am arguing actually this point for a while now.

Did Kashi also lie when she foretold Yona’s future? Or her own death?

Since she wished likely for revenge, she could have changed some facts at least. It would make sense.

According to her own words, she cannot see her own future.

If she could see her future, she literally - canonically - had lied.

Is she also then a schizophrenic?

Do I know it?

If that’s their reality then what why would there not be people other than the dragon warriors who can hear the voices of heavens? Especially if those gods are crazy evil shits with the mentality of toddlers?

There might be, but apparently they had still no wish for further priests. This could be even the will of the gods. So it could be they stopped talking, after the last priests had burnt.

, they abandoned him there all alone. It’s not Zeno’s fault he couldn’t hear their voices.

Did they abandon him? The dragon god apparently walked with him all the time. So maybe nobody else dared to speak with Zeno.

Apparently he loved Zeno so much, that he just did not let him die. At least he did not wish to take anybody else like the other dragon gods. He could have taken another one after 2000 years honestly.

Bruh they killed Hiryuu himself as they cursed him with the illness,

My impression was, that Hiryuu did not perceive it as a curse, but rather he did not keep his promise to go back. They were his brothers and he loved them as much as the dragon warriors. When Yona appeared, he obviously tried to break with the dragon gods.

It didn’t work so what if they started sending certain people visions for that same aim - eventually get Hiryuu back.

The visions certainly worked as self-fulfilling prophecies. As everything that Soo Won concerned likely was an effect of fate.

Look how it played out? I believe Kashi saw a vision of Soo-won killing Il (otherwise why would Il hate Soo-won since childhood), so Il hated Soo-won and was wary of Yuhon due to their conflict (again because of gods).

Indeed. King Il told us in the letter, that he knew, that Soo Won would kill him at one point in time.

Then Kashi saw Yona would die if she went with her to Yong-hi’s residence. Yona didn’t go and Kashi died. For that Il kills Yuhon.

I wonder, if she did not provoke it. If she had truly seen it, she could have not gone at all. Or wishing for King Il to accompany her.

She was the only one, who did appear to be unhappy with Yona wishing for Soo Won to live. Even King Il, who had been killed by him, Yon hi and Yu hon faced her. Merely Kashi ran away from her daughter. This points to a deep-seated grudge.

Well, we likely will never see the solution to this. But I headcanon her to be the only one, not being able to go on in the afterlife, because she cannot forgive Soo Won for killing King Il and King Hiryuu.

Yona didn’t go and Kashi died. For that Il kills Yuhon. Then for that Soo-won indeed kills Il, tosses Yona out. Yona then magically survives and meets Ik-soo who is also aware of “gods will” and guides her on the path of Hiryuu. And then Yona herself starts getting visions which partially triggers Zeno to act, Yona has more visions and as a result ends up in the chalice where the gods capture her finally.

Yes, Yona had visions. I wonder, if either Zeno or Hiryuu had wished to make her see. For Zeno it would be rather bad, if she saw the dragon warriors before. But maybe he wished to be understood before he betrayed her.

Hiryuu would also be a possibility for the appearance of Yona´s visions, as he literally makes a promise with her. The cycle closes itself and the tragedy for Zeno and the dragon warriors happens. Hiryuu could not say anything to Zeno, since the dragon god would have listened to it.

All that and also by the wish of “fate”, Yona also met Hak, an orphan out of nowhere that became the person that kept her alive her whole life (for the gods to have her alive and well when she gets to them).

The prophecy is a vow. A promise, a binding contract that allowed the dragon gods some freedom.

They could break it in contrast to Zeno or the dragon warriors, who were unable to break it, even if they wished for it.

The dragon gods are brothers, comrades. They have likely no reference for "romantic love". A person that "sustains" the heart, therefore is a shield to them. Only in relation to Yona.

How about fate is nothing different than possible versions? The dragon gods thought about a plan how to keep Hiryuu safe by influencing the events that would lead to this vow.

Could sending certain people visions and letting them hear the gods have been all along a long-term evil plan of the trapped gods to get Hiryuu back?

Yeah but we’re reading a fantasy story where gods, inhuman powers and communication with them are very much real, that’s literally what the story’s plot is. So I’m not sure why even think if it is real there or not. In the story gods and magical powers are very real, it’s not something up to debate even😅

Do I know it?

Clearly there is no presence of schizophrenia neither in Kashi nor in anyone else in this story. But for some reason you’re doubting that and I’m fairly confused how you came to this conclusion😅 It’s not a story about massive schizophrenia. But anyway, not going to persuade you.

This could be even the will of the gods. So it could be they stopped talking, after the last priests had burnt.

Yeah exactly, could have been part of their plan too. After all, because Yuhon burnt the priests, he lost the throne, Il became king, and also him and Yuhon were in horribly bad terms (which plays a role in further murders).

My impression was, that Hiryuu did not perceive it as a curse

He may have not perceived it as such but technically it was curse, especially for his innocent descendants. Though I had the impression that it was after he died that his soul “didn’t go back to them”. He didn’t betray them while he was alive unless they had an arranged amount of years he’d live on earth.

I honestly don’t know what they were even thinking when making Hiryuu sick. They were so afraid of anything harming him that they even sent the dragon warriors to protect him. But in the end they themselves made him sick with a painful illness that killed him? I don’t know where’s the logic in this. And pardon me, why did they even make Zeno immortal if they wanted Hiryuu back asap? Why did they make the dragon warriors’ powers inheritable too? Was it all from the beginning their plan to manipulate him back? But if they were so evil from the beginning, why did they announce the prophecy and give him the sword and medallion? To protect him from themselves? I’m so confused about all that.

I wonder, if she did not provoke it. If she had truly seen it, she could have not gone at all. Or wishing for King Il to accompany her.

Right. Like if you know Yona would be killed/harmed if she went there, then logically something would happen. Why would she even go there if she knew something bad would happen? I wouldn’t be surprised about anything related to Kashi honestly, she’s such a dark horse in this whole story.

I pity her, she was miserable her whole short life. First because of Yuhon burning the priests she almost died and got her face badly burnt. Then got stuck in a loveless marriage with Il in total isolation, played the role as Yona’s mother as she said herself. Did she even ever love Yona I wonder? Maybe she actually knowingly let herself get killed for the future events to happen. Maybe she expected Yona to avenge her later? But when Yona instead was fighting for Soo-won and was kind to Hiyori, Kashi’s murderer…who knows. She was disappointed maybe. I think Il also expected Yona to avenge him, since he told Soo-won he’d be killed by Yona. But Il loved Yona so he didn’t “turn away from her” when she didn’t do it. Unlike Kashi. Idk tho.

Hardly all the visions in the world, but the one in Kouka? Could be.

The conclusion of this work is that the characters got rid of the very gods. Therefore it is very possible, if there is a priest, he has to help people without ever having visions, having less power than even Zeno. But maybe Iksoo is the last of it. Who knows?

Clearly there is no presence of schizophrenia neither in Kashi nor in anyone else in this story. But for some reason you’re doubting that and I’m fairly confused how you came to this conclusion😅 It’s not a story about massive schizophrenia. But anyway, not going to persuade you.

This world now appears not so much different from our own. As the gods said goodbye.

My point was solely, that it could be one reason for the visions some holy people could have seen in earlier times in our world. Even in our world there are lots of people who pretended (so have lied) or imagined (so maybe were having schizophrenic episodes) to have visions. Some even used drugs or were bitten by toxic snakes.

Especially in the past. A lot of these people are well-known for their good deeds. If this holy people now had actually a schizophrenic episode but still were able to commit great deeds. Who cares in the end?

I am actually arguing with you this very point. Zeno was a priest, because the people believed in him. Who cares if it was a lie or not? The effect is the determining factor. Similarily, like Yona´s rule is nice and sweet, but when she does have a bad effect, then all the legend is worth nothing.

He may have not perceived it as such but technically it was curse, especially for his innocent descendants. Though I had the impression that it was after he died that his soul “didn’t go back to them”. He didn’t betray them while he was alive unless they had an arranged amount of years he’d live on earth.

I doubt, that it actually started with Hiryuu. He was a single case. His children had all different hair colors. And Yaksi did not appear to be sick, actually.

The betrayal was that he did not go back. It appears, that this was some sort of promise between Hiryuu and the dragon gods.

Hiryuu said, the dragon gods should wait. So clearly, Hiryuu had wished to go back to them. It would explain, why they wished to have Yona hostage. Because it was a promise Hiryuu gave them. But Yona and Hiryuu were not the same people.

The descendants however have all blonde hair. Like the dragon warriors, it is a single hair color.

So there seemed to be another reason for it. For the Crimson Illness.

I honestly don’t know what they were even thinking when making Hiryuu sick. They were so afraid of anything harming him that they even sent the dragon warriors to protect him. But in the end they themselves made him sick with a painful illness that killed him?

Death in a religious context is going from one world to the next. Heaven is a place of solace, freedom and care. From my belief, Christianity, going to heaven means going home (Like Zeno expressed it.)

(Whenever somebody died in our religion/belief, we expressed it like this: She or he went home to god.)

Dying is not the end. The people are merely "sleeping" like it was remarked for Hiryuu until they awake. In the other world. A true believer (like Zeno) won´t fear death, but wish for it.

From the way it was expressed, that Hiryuu was asleep, it appeared people expected that he would wake up one day.

This is what Zeno discovered down in the mausoleum. King Hiryuu has been nothing but a corpse. He is not anymore. There was no sleep.

Because even when he came back, it was Yona, not Hiryuu.

For the dragon gods Hiryuu was basically on vacation until he would come back to them. For them a human life, I mean the period of the life, is nothing.

However, Hiryuu did not come back. That is the betrayal. He ceased to exist. Yona took his place.

I don’t know where’s the logic in this. And pardon me, why did they even make Zeno immortal if they wanted Hiryuu back asap? Why did they make the dragon warriors’ powers inheritable too? Was it all from the beginning their plan to manipulate him back?

What do you mean with "inheritable"? The dragon warriors´s powers were inherited. Whe whole village descended from the first dragon warrior.

Zeno was the key that broke the camel´s back. Hiryuu recognized that Zeno would one day be the reason, why the dragon gods would die.

That is likely the reason he pointed a sword towards him.

Zeno was a strong believer in the gods, in their cause. But 2000 years completely changed this. Especially since Yona was not the person, he thought would come. (Zeno used to be like the shinto priests, after all. A true believer.)

The original dragon gods, the one, who did use their marbles were most likely able to see the the faraway future. Even Soo Won´s and Hak´s birth and even that Hiryuu would not come back to them.

Therefore Hiryuu received the prophecy, when he did not come back, after human beings had captured him. The dragon gods knew it, even though they did not wish for it.

Because the dragon gods with their brains intact and the crazy ones we experienced were completely different. The dragon gods intended to die. They did not wish to live without Hiryuu likely. And they wished to make his wish come true.

This story is structured in the two parts, I call "construction" and "deconstruction".

I pity her, she was miserable her whole short life. First because of Yuhon burning the priests she almost died and got her face badly burnt. Then got stuck in a loveless marriage with Il in total isolation, played the role as Yona’s mother as she said herself.

I know, this sounds strange. But Kashi most likely loved King Il enourmously. Her reason for hating Soo Won is most likely because of the murder. Even if she voiced it like this. She wished to be his wife. This would be logical. You just have to see her face, when she looks at Il, when she was a shrine maiden.

Maybe she actually knowingly let herself get killed for the future events to happen. Maybe she expected Yona to avenge her later?

Yes, she appeared to believe in fate. As strong as Zeno used to believe in fate. The priests, who are able to see the gods, or hear them, would perceive their lives as a martyr would.

They would die for a just cause. In this story however in vain.

Maybe she expected Yona to avenge her later? But when Yona instead was fighting for Soo-won and was kind to Hiyori, Kashi’s murderer…who knows. She was disappointed maybe. I think Il also expected Yona to avenge him, since he told Soo-won he’d be killed by Yona. But Il loved Yona so he didn’t “turn away from her” when she didn’t do it. Unlike Kashi. Idk tho.

@matcha-chai-latte

While he was “playing” priest, he never heard the gods while telling everyone heavens are protecting them. Not then and not ever since, until he slit his throat in the mausoleum.

Maybe it helps, if I mention, that we literally not know from a priest or another religious leader if he actually has this holy connection or not.

Yes, Zeno lied and it was even a lie that he held towards himself and not only the others.

Because Zeno even believed he would act like King Hiryuu had wished for. But the funny thing is, that Hiryuu told him for 10-16 years that Zeno won´t fight. And Zeno did fight.

Zeno made this decisions thinking it might be the will of Hiryuu, his father, his god, but actually they were his own decisions.

And even the text tells us this:

"I don´t want the people to get hurt".

"That is King Hiryuu´s wish".

he declared then. But it was Zeno´s decision to follow in King Hiryuu´s footsteps.

Just like Soo Won, who had believed to have replaced his father:

Soo Won literally believed to need to replace his father.

And he also lied and killed people.

However, the people do not care, because it depends on the effect.

Would the people really be so disappointed, if they heard, that Zeno had protected them for 20 years mostly alone?

Hell no! Because effectively Zeno protected them.

If it was a god, or the teletubbies, who cares at the end?

If this guy still could still hear the voice of the gods a little bit?

Really, had Gobi a holy connection to the gods? Nobody can prove it.

Ik soo helped the people, if he had this power or not. The people literally don´t know, that he is a priest. And so did Zeno helpe the people with or without his godly power.

We’re talking about a fantasy world so pretty much their priests are different from real ones.

Im just saying that it seems the priests Kouka had tended to have some “connection” with the gods, had visions, heard their voices, could convey the “will of the gods” etc. So that’s a specific common trait of priests in Kouka. Zeno is sure not “unrelated” to the gods but if he didn’t have any connection with them, then he was not truly a priest. His intention was to keep people in the castle from panicking about the dragons leaving them, not to be a real priest for itself.

Zeno tells the people Hiryuu’s medallion is a relic from the heavens (that connects him to the gods) and he will be now conveying the will of the heavens to them all. That’s why they accepted him as their priest. In reality though he was never hearing any gods and could never convey anything. If he was not acting for their sake, then I don’t know what he was doing. I don’t know how else to explain😅

Why? Who could prove this, if they heard the gods or not? Visions or hearing the gods was a personal experience. In a fantasy world or not.

If they had actually heard it, imagined it (like Joan D´Arc) or lied about it? Who could literally prove it?

Nobody.

Im just saying that it seems the priests Kouka had tended to have some “connection” with the gods, had visions, heard their voices, could convey the “will of the gods” etc. So that’s a specific common trait of priests in Kouka. Zeno is sure not “unrelated” to the gods but if he didn’t have any connection with them, then he was not truly a priest. His intention was to keep people in the castle from panicking about the dragons leaving them, not to be a real priest for itself.

The people believed in him, therefore he was a priest.

Zeno tells the people Hiryuu’s medallion is a relic from the heavens (that connects him to the gods) and he will be now conveying the will of the heavens to them all.

In a way, he might have believed this, too. After all, he believed he would do, what King Hiryuu had wanted. So he had conveyed the King´s will.

But it did not actually matter.

The dragon gods were only specifically related to Kouka and Gobi is not from Kouka, so I’d bet he didn’t hear shit.

We saw Ik-soo conveying the will of the gods to Yona? Not just the prophecy, he said Hak could die without the dragons, which ties to what Yona saw in her dream when she was 14-15. Said that Yona’s life will lead to Kouka “rumbling”. And clearly knew who the “sword and shield” were, said they’re not yet ready. Wasn’t birds that chirped him all that in the ear.

Kashi and Yona could see the future sent by divine forces. The past priest instantly felt Yong-hi’s blood was Hiryuu’s, and clearly as he was the main priest, that was far from the only thing he could do, either Iksoo or Kashi said he taught them a lot. Imo clearly they were not hanging out in temples for nothing. They could definitely see and feel things others couldn’t.

Zeno like I said is no ordinary ofc, as a dragon he could also “feel” things but again, ever since he became a dragon warrior, he did not hear neither voices nor have visions or whatever. The gods became silent to him.

In a way, he might have believed this, too.

Yes, could be. I think he was definitely trying to call out to them but with no avail. Just like we saw him do when Kaya was dying.

Who knows?

He glasped the hands together and then was speaking rashly this words. It could have been true or not true.

If Zeno had not heard this vow already, we would be unsure, if he had been spoken the truth or not.

Not just the prophecy, he said Hak could die without the dragons, which ties to what Yona saw in her dream when she was 14-15.

Yona does not remember this, though. He could have also invented something and nobody would have known. Could have hardly known that Zeno is immortal.

Like this you do -usually - not know, if the priest said the truth or not.

Said that Yona’s life will lead to Kouka “rumbling”. And clearly knew who the “sword and shield” were, said they’re not yet ready. Wasn’t birds that chirped him all that in the ear.

Do we know it? Francis of Assis could talk with birds, if I remember correctly.

Did he know it or not? Have the "gods", whoever they were - if the dragon gods or other "higher entities"- really told him more? Merely from the words he spoke, you could hardly derive this.

So he could be really just some mediator, who spoke the words he heard directly or not. I also wonder about your interpretation, as if would imply, he would be alright with "forgiving" Soo Won, who was the son of Yu hon. The very person, who had nearly killed all the people.

I also wonder, how Iksoo has survive. King Il was shown merely to carry Kashi out. Where was Iksoo when everything started? How was he able to survive? Was there really just the headpriest, Iksoo and Kashi in the whole temple?

Kashi and Yona could see the future sent by divine forces. The past priest instantly felt Yong-hi’s blood was Hiryuu’s, and clearly as he was the main priest, that was far from the only thing he could do,

They were intuitive people. Some people feel a little more. It is a knowledge, that is not entirely explored.

About the headpriest...We literally don´t know it. Zeno was also headpriest with 0 power in that direction. It can work.

But in theory you could be schizophrenic and hear voices and be persuaded you heard the voice of the gods. How do we know, if Joan D´Arc really heard the voice of god, when she believed she was chosen to rescue France? Would that have made her somehow worse, if she had been a little bit crazy or even lied?

She was still so succesful, that a couple of men decided they wished to eliminate her. Due to her influence. Fate can have an amazing power. Self-fulfilling prophecies exist.

I have known a woman, who was convinced that angels were speaking with her. I could hardly disprove her, right?

Imo clearly they were not hanging out in temples for nothing. They could definitely see and feel things others couldn’t.

The most prominent example for a priest in that series hanged out in a temple without having any power.

Kashi wished for the strange dreams, for her intuition to have some deeper meaning. She saw some scenes and in Yona´s case it did not even come true. Zeno did not have the heart to kill Hak. And I doubt this guy would have ever had the heart to kill them.

The mangaka had confirmed, that when Zeno had transformed and he tried to threathen them, had tried to push them to a safer place. So that they would not be buried under the rubble.

So what did Yona actually see? The future or pictures contorted by her fear?

That the dragon gods were only related to Kouka or that Gobi couldn’t hear them? I’d say it’s logical since Gobi himself is unrelated to Kouka and the gods are very much only related to Kouka.

Both. We saw in that strange light at the lake even gods or higher beings from other parts of the world. And it would be strange and illogical, why all the gods, every higher being was a Kouka-only-thing.

Besides if Gobi could hear gods or not, we would not know again. Not all of this beings have to be "good", after all.

That reminds me of the stormlight series, where Dalinar believed to hear god. However it was merely a spirit he heard. And a memento of a god, who used to be just a simple human being.

Or even of Berserk, who appears to be a progenitor of this work. There gods and devils are basically the same.

I don’t think he ever claimed anything like that either unless I forgot it. If he said so then who knows but I don’t remember him having any special intuition or anything. He was just a freaky prick.

Oh. So you actually think he lied? Can’t help that I guess.

However as we saw his information turned out to be very true and way too concrete to be a mere guess or a prediction of a schizophrenic. My question then is how did he come up with the prophecy, with Hak dying (exactly what Yona saw in her dream before everything), with Kouka being in trouble in the future if Yona lives. He said it and it was all true. Who told him that if you don’t think it was the gods (who are literally a thing in their world).

Did Kashi also lie when she foretold Yona’s future? Or her own death? Who showed her that? Is she also then a schizophrenic? Idk maybe they’re all just a country of schizophrenics but we’re not talking about history or the real world but a fantasy shoujo world where a red-haired girl commanded superpowered boys with dragon body parts. Khm. Squirrels that battle bears (gaiden 3).

If that’s their reality then what why would there not be people other than the dragon warriors who can hear the voices of heavens? Especially if those gods are crazy evil shits with the mentality of toddlers?

Zeno could hear the voices of gods before. But as those gods went crazy that Hiryuu’s soul didn’t return to them, they abandoned him there all alone. It’s not Zeno’s fault he couldn’t hear their voices.

So theory time

If seriously, my intake is that the gods were doing everything they could to get Hiryuu back. Bruh they killed Hiryuu himself as they cursed him with the illness, and then his whole bloodline hoping it would lure him back. It didn’t work so what if they started sending certain people visions for that same aim - eventually get Hiryuu back. Look how it played out? I believe Kashi saw a vision of Soo-won killing Il (otherwise why would Il hate Soo-won since childhood), so Il hated Soo-won and was wary of Yuhon due to their conflict (again because of gods). Then Kashi saw Yona would die if she went with her to Yong-hi’s residence. Yona didn’t go and Kashi died. For that Il kills Yuhon. Then for that Soo-won indeed kills Il, tosses Yona out. Yona then magically survives and meets Ik-soo who is also aware of “gods will” and guides her on the path of Hiryuu. And then Yona herself starts getting visions which partially triggers Zeno to act, Yona has more visions and as a result ends up in the chalice where the gods capture her finally.

All that and also by the wish of “fate”, Yona also met Hak, an orphan out of nowhere that became the person that kept her alive her whole life (for the gods to have her alive and well when she gets to them).

Could sending certain people visions and letting them hear the gods have been all along a long-term evil plan of the trapped gods to get Hiryuu back? They were the ones sending people visions and speaking to them while being corrupted mastermind crackheads all along, so why not? (omg my brain is off now I was typing fast phew😮‍💨).

And it would be strange and illogical, why all the gods, every higher being was a Kouka-only-thing.

I don’t think gods are only a Kouka thing. I think that the whole thing with the dragon gods (king hiryuu and the dragon warriors) is not a continent-wide religion everyone is following but merely a legend inside of Kouka the majority of people didn’t even believe in. In Kai as we saw they have completely different legends (the magical lake for example). That is a legend of only Kai (as the lake is in Kai), and the Hiryuu one is only of Kouka (as Hiryuu was Kouka’s king).

No, because we got the confirmation later. But theoretically, we do not know, if somebody has visions or hears some strange god.

Since it is a personal experience. And I am arguing actually this point for a while now.

Did Kashi also lie when she foretold Yona’s future? Or her own death?

Since she wished likely for revenge, she could have changed some facts at least. It would make sense.

According to her own words, she cannot see her own future.

If she could see her future, she literally - canonically - had lied.

Is she also then a schizophrenic?

Do I know it?

If that’s their reality then what why would there not be people other than the dragon warriors who can hear the voices of heavens? Especially if those gods are crazy evil shits with the mentality of toddlers?

There might be, but apparently they had still no wish for further priests. This could be even the will of the gods. So it could be they stopped talking, after the last priests had burnt.

, they abandoned him there all alone. It’s not Zeno’s fault he couldn’t hear their voices.

Did they abandon him? The dragon god apparently walked with him all the time. So maybe nobody else dared to speak with Zeno.

Apparently he loved Zeno so much, that he just did not let him die. At least he did not wish to take anybody else like the other dragon gods. He could have taken another one after 2000 years honestly.

Bruh they killed Hiryuu himself as they cursed him with the illness,

My impression was, that Hiryuu did not perceive it as a curse, but rather he did not keep his promise to go back. They were his brothers and he loved them as much as the dragon warriors. When Yona appeared, he obviously tried to break with the dragon gods.

It didn’t work so what if they started sending certain people visions for that same aim - eventually get Hiryuu back.

The visions certainly worked as self-fulfilling prophecies. As everything that Soo Won concerned likely was an effect of fate.

Look how it played out? I believe Kashi saw a vision of Soo-won killing Il (otherwise why would Il hate Soo-won since childhood), so Il hated Soo-won and was wary of Yuhon due to their conflict (again because of gods).

Indeed. King Il told us in the letter, that he knew, that Soo Won would kill him at one point in time.

Then Kashi saw Yona would die if she went with her to Yong-hi’s residence. Yona didn’t go and Kashi died. For that Il kills Yuhon.

I wonder, if she did not provoke it. If she had truly seen it, she could have not gone at all. Or wishing for King Il to accompany her.

She was the only one, who did appear to be unhappy with Yona wishing for Soo Won to live. Even King Il, who had been killed by him, Yon hi and Yu hon faced her. Merely Kashi ran away from her daughter. This points to a deep-seated grudge.

Well, we likely will never see the solution to this. But I headcanon her to be the only one, not being able to go on in the afterlife, because she cannot forgive Soo Won for killing King Il and King Hiryuu.

Yona didn’t go and Kashi died. For that Il kills Yuhon. Then for that Soo-won indeed kills Il, tosses Yona out. Yona then magically survives and meets Ik-soo who is also aware of “gods will” and guides her on the path of Hiryuu. And then Yona herself starts getting visions which partially triggers Zeno to act, Yona has more visions and as a result ends up in the chalice where the gods capture her finally.

Yes, Yona had visions. I wonder, if either Zeno or Hiryuu had wished to make her see. For Zeno it would be rather bad, if she saw the dragon warriors before. But maybe he wished to be understood before he betrayed her.

Hiryuu would also be a possibility for the appearance of Yona´s visions, as he literally makes a promise with her. The cycle closes itself and the tragedy for Zeno and the dragon warriors happens. Hiryuu could not say anything to Zeno, since the dragon god would have listened to it.

All that and also by the wish of “fate”, Yona also met Hak, an orphan out of nowhere that became the person that kept her alive her whole life (for the gods to have her alive and well when she gets to them).

The prophecy is a vow. A promise, a binding contract that allowed the dragon gods some freedom.

They could break it in contrast to Zeno or the dragon warriors, who were unable to break it, even if they wished for it.

The dragon gods are brothers, comrades. They have likely no reference for "romantic love". A person that "sustains" the heart, therefore is a shield to them. Only in relation to Yona.

How about fate is nothing different than possible versions? The dragon gods thought about a plan how to keep Hiryuu safe by influencing the events that would lead to this vow.

Could sending certain people visions and letting them hear the gods have been all along a long-term evil plan of the trapped gods to get Hiryuu back?

@matcha-chai-latte

Depends on what you mean by “believing”. Zeno like I said genuinely loved Hiryuu and he genuinely loved his brothers - the dragon warriors. He never stopped believing in this bond. Absolutely Kija, Shinha and Jae-ha were most precious to him.

Depends on what you mean by “believing”. Zeno like I said genuinely loved Hiryuu and he genuinely loved his brothers - the dragon warriors. He never stopped believing in this bond. Absolutely Kija, Shinha and Jae-ha were most precious to him. However Zeno, having seen all the suffering caused by the gods and the presence of Hiryuu and dragons in this world - stopped believing that the dragons and the crimson dragon king should continue existing.

The question would be when?

If you try to imply, that Zeno was 100 % sure, that he would betray Yona at the beginning of their common journey, then I would disagree.

If you try to imply, that it was after the Arc with Chagol, when the dragon warriors had started to transform and it was evident, that they had reached the end of their lifespans, then I would agree.

Too many "remarks" of him would make no sense. If it was different.

1. If Zeno had been really hellbent of betraying them, why would he ever tell Hak something like this?

Zeno implied basically that the dragon warriors were replacable, like objects. One down, take the next paper!

"Yeah, the four dragons are okay. Even if they die...they are born again."

"But you can´t be replaced. So you have to take care of yourself."

Basically Zeno was implying that the dragon warriors could be sacrificed for Hak´s sake.

Zeno appeared truly surprised, when Hak answered:

"You guys can´t be replaced, either."

If this was one of the so-called tests, he would just smile. But Zeno appeared truly taken aback.

2. Zeno´s expectation and his sense of being

Zeno expected that King Hiryuu had a reason to come again. Something important.

And be careful! The way it is expressed is important:

I might find the reason for being alive when I see the new Hiryuu´s path.

So Zeno was not sure, if he would find the reason for being alive, when he saw the new Hiryuu´s path.

With the same strength his "wish" is implied.

"My wish might also be fulfilled."

Zeno did not imply that he would 100 % betray Yona. He implied it as a possibility. An important difference.

So strong used to be Zeno´s belief. Even during the time when Yona was born.

It’s not about “betraying Yona”. It’s about returning the dragons to heavens and ending the whole “Hiryuu and the dragon warriors” idea in the human world. That was his wish for 2000 years and for that he’d do anything. So regardless how and regardless what Yona wanted (if it meant betraying her), he’d do that. He knew it from the start, even before meeting her. He was waiting for this to end.

We do not know, what this wish even is

We do know

That was his one wish. End the dragons and his life.

Zeno did not want to live another 2000 years to try again. He even tried ending the dragons before but failed. Apparently it was only possible with a Hiryuu in this formula. He was waiting for the new Hiryuu because he wanted this to end with this Hiryuu - Yona.

When castle Hiryuu burned down, the chalice appeared and the dragons started losing their minds, it was merely the sign for Zeno that it’s time to act, not “oh no there’s no other way”.

This would inevitably lead to Yona losing the dragon warriors as protection. It was clear and established, that they needed them to survive.

Zeno had literally lied in their faces just a couple of moments before, so he had clearly intended to go behind their backs.

It was his wish, but it was also not his wish. This standing next to each other demonstrates that the belief in Hiryuu had been strong. So strong that both his wish and Yona´s way stood next to each other.

Second, it is also established, that Zeno believed at the time of his betrayal, that the dragon warriors were not needed. This was important for him to remark.

"Even if the dragon warriors are gone. This country can get back on its feet on its own. Life goes on with or without us."

In contrast to Yona, Zeno is a pretty selfless person. I wonder, if he knew about the events beforehand, if he had sacrificed so many people that must have died during the earthquakes.

Zeno is also seen to be aware of the damage that happened. So it was important for him to notice.

Zeno isn´t the person, that is able to completely disregard other people. Even unknown people. He kills people, if he considers it necessary though.

Nope, at the beginning it was an option, depending on Yona (and obviously) his own feelings that lead to the events.

It is also logical, since Hak and Soo Won - the sword and shield - influenced him in his decision.

Another big point is basically, that Zeno´s betrayal must be part of the so-called prophecy. According to your conclusions it was absolutely independant from Yona´s way, if Zeno betrayed them or not.

The whole prophecy however has merely one aim: To ensure Yona´s safety. And based on the dragon gods perception it is either the dragon warriors or the "Shield and the Sword".

That was his one wish. End the dragons and his life. Zeno did not want to live another 2000 years to try again. He even tried ending the dragons before but failed. Apparently it was only possible with a Hiryuu in this formula. He was waiting for the new Hiryuu because he wanted this to end with this Hiryuu - Yona.

Just that his one wish stood side by side with his belief. He is the same like Soo Won. He, too, had to be freed from his belief and this happened - above else - in the story and not as a sidquest before.

When castle Hiryuu burned down, the chalice appeared and the dragons started losing their minds, it was merely the sign for Zeno that it’s time to act, not “oh no there’s no other way”.

This is merely an assumption and nothing else. We have merely definitive proof of it, when the dragon warriors lost their marbles. Then he literally started to watch them. You have literally showed me a part, where he was so clearly struggling and unsure. It did not look at all, as if he was 100 % sure.

From the start he knew he’d do this and he’d been waiting to do this, and there’s no way he’d back out of it because if he didn’t, he’d have to wait again for another Hiryuu.

Indeed, but if you consider yourself and others as replacable, as Zeno did in the past in order for a cause, you try to surpress this knowledge.

"People are born with the vessel, that is their body, learn and return to heaven. That is to put it, their destiny."

Just like Soo Won surpressed the knowledge. Zeno dissociated. He had to put thousand things between him and others. He saw them die, all these people, broke down and dissociated again. Trying to distance himself to the extreme from this pain.

Because those two are a complete beautiful mirror. Zeno had believed at the beginning, she was worthy.

@matcha-chai-latte

While he was “playing” priest, he never heard the gods while telling everyone heavens are protecting them. Not then and not ever since, until he slit his throat in the mausoleum.

Maybe it helps, if I mention, that we literally not know from a priest or another religious leader if he actually has this holy connection or not.

Yes, Zeno lied and it was even a lie that he held towards himself and not only the others.

Because Zeno even believed he would act like King Hiryuu had wished for. But the funny thing is, that Hiryuu told him for 10-16 years that Zeno won´t fight. And Zeno did fight.

Zeno made this decisions thinking it might be the will of Hiryuu, his father, his god, but actually they were his own decisions.

And even the text tells us this:

"I don´t want the people to get hurt".

"That is King Hiryuu´s wish".

he declared then. But it was Zeno´s decision to follow in King Hiryuu´s footsteps.

Just like Soo Won, who had believed to have replaced his father:

Soo Won literally believed to need to replace his father.

And he also lied and killed people.

However, the people do not care, because it depends on the effect.

Would the people really be so disappointed, if they heard, that Zeno had protected them for 20 years mostly alone?

Hell no! Because effectively Zeno protected them.

If it was a god, or the teletubbies, who cares at the end?

If this guy still could still hear the voice of the gods a little bit?

Really, had Gobi a holy connection to the gods? Nobody can prove it.

Ik soo helped the people, if he had this power or not. The people literally don´t know, that he is a priest. And so did Zeno helpe the people with or without his godly power.

We’re talking about a fantasy world so pretty much their priests are different from real ones.

Im just saying that it seems the priests Kouka had tended to have some “connection” with the gods, had visions, heard their voices, could convey the “will of the gods” etc. So that’s a specific common trait of priests in Kouka. Zeno is sure not “unrelated” to the gods but if he didn’t have any connection with them, then he was not truly a priest. His intention was to keep people in the castle from panicking about the dragons leaving them, not to be a real priest for itself.

Zeno tells the people Hiryuu’s medallion is a relic from the heavens (that connects him to the gods) and he will be now conveying the will of the heavens to them all. That’s why they accepted him as their priest. In reality though he was never hearing any gods and could never convey anything. If he was not acting for their sake, then I don’t know what he was doing. I don’t know how else to explain😅

Why? Who could prove this, if they heard the gods or not? Visions or hearing the gods was a personal experience. In a fantasy world or not.

If they had actually heard it, imagined it (like Joan D´Arc) or lied about it? Who could literally prove it?

Nobody.

Im just saying that it seems the priests Kouka had tended to have some “connection” with the gods, had visions, heard their voices, could convey the “will of the gods” etc. So that’s a specific common trait of priests in Kouka. Zeno is sure not “unrelated” to the gods but if he didn’t have any connection with them, then he was not truly a priest. His intention was to keep people in the castle from panicking about the dragons leaving them, not to be a real priest for itself.

The people believed in him, therefore he was a priest.

Zeno tells the people Hiryuu’s medallion is a relic from the heavens (that connects him to the gods) and he will be now conveying the will of the heavens to them all.

In a way, he might have believed this, too. After all, he believed he would do, what King Hiryuu had wanted. So he had conveyed the King´s will.

But it did not actually matter.

The dragon gods were only specifically related to Kouka and Gobi is not from Kouka, so I’d bet he didn’t hear shit.

We saw Ik-soo conveying the will of the gods to Yona? Not just the prophecy, he said Hak could die without the dragons, which ties to what Yona saw in her dream when she was 14-15. Said that Yona’s life will lead to Kouka “rumbling”. And clearly knew who the “sword and shield” were, said they’re not yet ready. Wasn’t birds that chirped him all that in the ear.

Kashi and Yona could see the future sent by divine forces. The past priest instantly felt Yong-hi’s blood was Hiryuu’s, and clearly as he was the main priest, that was far from the only thing he could do, either Iksoo or Kashi said he taught them a lot. Imo clearly they were not hanging out in temples for nothing. They could definitely see and feel things others couldn’t.

Zeno like I said is no ordinary ofc, as a dragon he could also “feel” things but again, ever since he became a dragon warrior, he did not hear neither voices nor have visions or whatever. The gods became silent to him.

In a way, he might have believed this, too.

Yes, could be. I think he was definitely trying to call out to them but with no avail. Just like we saw him do when Kaya was dying.

Who knows?

He glasped the hands together and then was speaking rashly this words. It could have been true or not true.

If Zeno had not heard this vow already, we would be unsure, if he had been spoken the truth or not.

Not just the prophecy, he said Hak could die without the dragons, which ties to what Yona saw in her dream when she was 14-15.

Yona does not remember this, though. He could have also invented something and nobody would have known. Could have hardly known that Zeno is immortal.

Like this you do -usually - not know, if the priest said the truth or not.

Said that Yona’s life will lead to Kouka “rumbling”. And clearly knew who the “sword and shield” were, said they’re not yet ready. Wasn’t birds that chirped him all that in the ear.

Do we know it? Francis of Assis could talk with birds, if I remember correctly.

Did he know it or not? Have the "gods", whoever they were - if the dragon gods or other "higher entities"- really told him more? Merely from the words he spoke, you could hardly derive this.

So he could be really just some mediator, who spoke the words he heard directly or not. I also wonder about your interpretation, as if would imply, he would be alright with "forgiving" Soo Won, who was the son of Yu hon. The very person, who had nearly killed all the people.

I also wonder, how Iksoo has survive. King Il was shown merely to carry Kashi out. Where was Iksoo when everything started? How was he able to survive? Was there really just the headpriest, Iksoo and Kashi in the whole temple?

Kashi and Yona could see the future sent by divine forces. The past priest instantly felt Yong-hi’s blood was Hiryuu’s, and clearly as he was the main priest, that was far from the only thing he could do,

They were intuitive people. Some people feel a little more. It is a knowledge, that is not entirely explored.

About the headpriest...We literally don´t know it. Zeno was also headpriest with 0 power in that direction. It can work.

But in theory you could be schizophrenic and hear voices and be persuaded you heard the voice of the gods. How do we know, if Joan D´Arc really heard the voice of god, when she believed she was chosen to rescue France? Would that have made her somehow worse, if she had been a little bit crazy or even lied?

She was still so succesful, that a couple of men decided they wished to eliminate her. Due to her influence. Fate can have an amazing power. Self-fulfilling prophecies exist.

I have known a woman, who was convinced that angels were speaking with her. I could hardly disprove her, right?

Imo clearly they were not hanging out in temples for nothing. They could definitely see and feel things others couldn’t.

The most prominent example for a priest in that series hanged out in a temple without having any power.

Kashi wished for the strange dreams, for her intuition to have some deeper meaning. She saw some scenes and in Yona´s case it did not even come true. Zeno did not have the heart to kill Hak. And I doubt this guy would have ever had the heart to kill them.

The mangaka had confirmed, that when Zeno had transformed and he tried to threathen them, had tried to push them to a safer place. So that they would not be buried under the rubble.

So what did Yona actually see? The future or pictures contorted by her fear?

That the dragon gods were only related to Kouka or that Gobi couldn’t hear them? I’d say it’s logical since Gobi himself is unrelated to Kouka and the gods are very much only related to Kouka.

Both. We saw in that strange light at the lake even gods or higher beings from other parts of the world. And it would be strange and illogical, why all the gods, every higher being was a Kouka-only-thing.

Besides if Gobi could hear gods or not, we would not know again. Not all of this beings have to be "good", after all.

That reminds me of the stormlight series, where Dalinar believed to hear god. However it was merely a spirit he heard. And a memento of a god, who used to be just a simple human being.

Or even of Berserk, who appears to be a progenitor of this work. There gods and devils are basically the same.

I don’t think he ever claimed anything like that either unless I forgot it. If he said so then who knows but I don’t remember him having any special intuition or anything. He was just a freaky prick.

Placed side by side, these images become even more ridiculous.

Hak: “The day will come when you will understand the joy of being subjects of Princess Yona.”

Later: “To get here, we suffered bandit attacks, cracks in the ground, and rockslides. In any case, it took us a very long time. We thought we had sent enough supplies and personnel, but it wasn't enough. Meanwhile, in the remote regions, many people were looking for work and supplies, and discontent continued to mount. There has to be more… Some way to resolve this.”

Later, Yona: “When we traveled, I understood better how people lived.”

Excuse me, but Hak praises Yona based on what? On the newly discovered epiphany that reality exists outside the palace?

She comes from the following journey: Childhood in the palace: lives isolated and is unaware of the kingdom. Journey through Kouka: supposedly discovers hunger, corruption, slavery, abuse, and inequality. Return to the palace: in two months, she loses touch with everything again. Solemn reflection: she discovers that, from the palace, she doesn't see people's lives so clearly.

That's not political growth. It's going all the way around only to return to the starting point, only now wearing a ceremonial cape and with her hands clasped.

And what's lacking isn't abstract intelligence. It's applied learning. After having lived abroad, she should return knowing precisely that the palace distorts information. The logical thing would have been for her to organize from day one: liaisons with each tribe; independent local officials; verified reports; regular tours; channels for receiving complaints; unannounced inspections; people whose job wasn't to tell her she was trying incredibly hard.

But it seems that didn't occur to her until they had already miscalculated the supplies and discontent was growing. Fantastic administrative debut.

And the expressions make it worse, because the drawing shows no shame at having lost touch, no frustration at the system's failure, no sense of responsibility, and no fear of repeating the blindness of his childhood. She displays a kind of delicate contemplation, as if she had grasped a profound truth: “Outside the palace, you see things you can’t see from inside.”

Yes, Yona. You also notice the rain more when there’s no roof. Record that in the annals of the kingdom.

And Hak remembers it with that gentle, approving smile, without questioning a thing. He, who is traveling the roads, observing the needs and doing the fieldwork the government doesn’t know how to organize, decides that the moment demands admiration. Not analysis.

The two feed off each other, and that is perhaps the most irritating aspect. Hak promises the people that they will be happy under Yona. Yona accepts that faith as something natural. Yona states the obvious with solemnity. Hak receives it as proof of wisdom. Neither introduces friction into the other.

He doesn’t say to her: “Then the system you have isn’t working.”

She doesn’t say to him: “You can’t travel the entire kingdom alone doing my job.”

No. She thinks. He smiles. Then he sets off on a walk of another 500 kilometers without a horse.

And the propaganda slogan comes across even worse: “The day will come when you will understand how fortunate we are…” This demands enormous confidence in Yona’s abilities. But the gaiden itself is showing that she is unaware of the magnitude of the needs, has sent insufficient resources, lacks reliable information, discontent is growing, and depends on Hak to find out what’s happening.

And is Hak already proclaiming future national happiness as dogma? This isn’t reasoned confidence. It’s faith. And that’s why he seems brainwashed: the reality he himself observes doesn’t alter his preconceived notion. Yona will be a magnificent queen because she is Yona. The facts will be incorporated later, when they have some free time.

A ruler who rediscovers the existence of the people every two months, and a bodyguard who turns every governmental deficiency into early proof of greatness. The kingdom is in magnificent hands. They just need a network for information, transportation, administration, self-criticism, and maybe a shared brain for emergencies.

Au contraire, Yona needs also "abstract intelligence" as she does not need to invent the wheel again. There have been countless other rulers before her and their experience might also come in handy.

Right now, she is merely able to rule, because Soo Won and Keishuk took the MOST of her tasks from her.

Yona merely has to do 2000 of 10.000.

She needs to know everything from economy over law to political tactics, warfare, foreign affairs ect...Yona knows merely the basics and needs to learn much.

But yes, she does need information for a direct source...and this is, what Hak is already doing. He does collect information and will bring this information to Yona and co.

It is impossible for her to do everything alone, but other people are there, who will help her. Without their help it would be impossible for her to rule.

The logical thing would have been for her to organize from day one: liaisons with each tribe; independent local officials; verified reports; regular tours; channels for receiving complaints; unannounced inspections; people whose job wasn't to tell her she was trying incredibly hard.

Yona is right now struggling to rule at all. Currently she is not able to manage this job at all alone. This girl is still learning. It has been 2 months since she has taken on the hardest job of all: Being a good Queen Regnant.

And Soo Won has already removed much of the corrupt officials to begin with, as we have seen with Kum Ji. Originally he had tried to get intel about this man, when he met Yona in Awa.

In fact, Soo Won is already trying to figure out, how to change the current system. Yona does not have to do everything alone. Actually, she has never managed everything alone during her whole journey.

The two feed off each other, and that is perhaps the most irritating aspect. Hak promises the people that they will be happy under Yona. Yona accepts that faith as something natural. Yona states the obvious with solemnity. Hak receives it as proof of wisdom. Neither introduces friction into the other. He doesn’t say to her: “Then the system you have isn’t working.” She doesn’t say to him: “You can’t travel the entire kingdom alone doing my job.” No. She thinks. He smiles. Then he sets off on a walk of another 500 kilometers without a horse.

Neither Hak nor Yona would have left the castle entirely on their own. The driving factor for change have always been Soo Won (and Zeno).

And the propaganda slogan comes across even worse: “The day will come when you will understand how fortunate we are…” This demands enormous confidence in Yona’s abilities. But the gaiden itself is showing that she is unaware of the magnitude of the needs, has sent insufficient resources, lacks reliable information, discontent is growing, and depends on Hak to find out what’s happening.

Correct observation. It is indeed fate. Hak´s strength is his loyalty to people he loves. He isn´t critical of Yona and most likely never will. It is not in his nature.

I hope, that Zeno, who is at least talking with people, even if he suffers from severe depression it seems, might influence the story. Lily, who is visiting Ogi, the literal information broker, might be another source. It might lead to Soo Won visiting Ogi again, as he does need this kind of information.

And is Hak already proclaiming future national happiness as dogma? This isn’t reasoned confidence. It’s faith. And that’s why he seems brainwashed: the reality he himself observes doesn’t alter his preconceived notion. Yona will be a magnificent queen because she is Yona. The facts will be incorporated later, when they have some free time.

Hak was a person, who trusted King Il. He is great at believing, but does not wish to see the truth. He is the kind of guy, who thought that a marriage between Yona and Soo Won would have worked even after him and Yona have become a couple.

A ruler who rediscovers the existence of the people every two months, and a bodyguard who turns every governmental deficiency into early proof of greatness. The kingdom is in magnificent hands. They just need a network for information, transportation, administration, self-criticism, and maybe a shared brain for emergencies. Jesús, qué tropa.

Of course she has abstract intelligence. The wheel has already been invented, and besides, she's used it, but it seems she's only now becoming aware of its existence. What I mean is that she lacks the ability to apply that abstract intelligence.

It is impossible for her to do everything alone, but other people are there, who will help her. Without their help it would be impossible for her to rule.

Yona could have refused to ascend the throne until she felt ready, and she didn't. Girl, take responsibility for your actions. We're back to the same old story: she gets into trouble that others get her out of. But the credit is always hers, because she's the one who puts in so much effort. The others just sit back and watch time go by, it seems.

This girl is still learning. It has been 2 months since she has taken on the hardest job of all: Being a good Queen Regnant.

Poor thing. I'll say it again: she didn't have to accept the crown.

Actually, she has never managed everything alone during her whole journey.

Indeed, she's never done anything alone throughout her journey.

Neither Hak nor Yona would have left the castle entirely on their own. The driving factor for change have always been Soo Won (and Zeno).

I completely agree. And it's precisely Soo Won and Zeno who have the worst endings. It must be a coincidence, right?

Hak was a person, who trusted King Il. He is great at believing, but does not wish to see the truth. He is the kind of guy, who thought that a marriage between Yona and Soo Won would have worked even after him and Yona have become a couple.

Hak is willfully blind and a delusional fool. And many other things, none of them particularly good...

This is Soo Won´s task. And the one of others. It seems as if Ogi, Lily, Zeno and Soo Won might play a little role as well.

Yes, but Yona has to learn how to "apply abstract intelligence". This is an ability. We learn how to "abstract" slowly in school.

This is Soo Won´s home turf, but Yona is still a baby chicken. She has most likely less knowledge than a common 16 year old due to her "lacking" education by King Il.

Yona could have refused to ascend the throne until she felt ready, and she didn't. Girl, take responsibility for your actions. We're back to the same old story: she gets into trouble that others get her out of. But the credit is always hers, because she's the one who puts in so much effort. The others just sit back and watch time go by, it seems.

You are right, she could have refused, but she could not bring herself to refuse Soo Won, who had nearly died. And he had promised to help her. The mistake lies more with him than her in that case. But Soo Won most likely couldn´t anymore after the events in the mausoleum.

She contributed like everybody else, but she has always been hailed for everybody´s common efforts. As if she was the sole source. But Yona has never been the sole source.

I completely agree. And it's precisely Soo Won and Zeno who have the worst endings. It must be a coincidence, right?

Not a coincidence at all. In order to become a bird, in order to acquire a wide and great knowledge. In order to acquire wisdom, you have to sometimes go through hell. That is why those two are birds.

Soo Won and Zeno both hold contrary, but important wisdom. They acquired a wider point of view as everybody else. Without this wisdom everything goes to shit. Again. Like with King Il.

Hak is willfully blind and a delusional fool. And many other things, none of them particularly good…

No, he is not a fool. Though I agree, that he is blind. He is Yona´s significant other, so of course, he tends to be loyal, and nice and full of illusions. Yona had to literally break herself away from illusions...because she loves cushy dreams more than reality.

Yes, it always seems to be someone else's job.

That is precisely my point: Yona still has to learn how to apply what she knows to practical situations.

This is Soo-won’s home turf, but Yona is still a baby chicken. She most likely has less knowledge than an ordinary sixteen-year-old because of the education King Il denied her.

It is true that she lacks knowledge and education. However, there is at least one lesson she should already understand through direct experience: life inside the castle gives her a much poorer view of the country than life outside it.

She spent her childhood isolated inside the castle and then travelled through Kouka, however involuntarily at first. She should not need two months as queen before receiving this realization like Saint Paul on the road to Damascus.

You are right, she could have refused, but she could not bring herself to refuse Soo-won, who had nearly died. And he had promised to help her. The mistake lies more with him than with her in that case.

I do not see it that way. That interpretation removes Yona’s agency precisely when responsibility is being discussed, only to restore it when she is presented as a legitimate and admirable sovereign.

Soo-won may certainly have been wrong to offer her the crown without arranging a sufficient transition. But Yona accepted it. She knew that he was gravely injured, that she would depend heavily on his assistance, and that she lacked the necessary education and experience.

Her inability to bring herself to refuse him explains her decision emotionally. It does not erase the fact that she made that decision.

And if Soo-won had just emerged from the mausoleum gravely wounded and perhaps unable to continue ruling, it seems rather unfair to place the full responsibility for choosing an unprepared successor on him as well. Apparently, even while abdicating after nearly dying, he was expected to arrange everything perfectly.

I think the fairest conclusion is that Soo-won made a mistake by offering her the crown without an adequate transition, and Yona made a mistake by accepting it while unprepared.

She contributed like everybody else, but she has always been praised for everybody’s collective efforts, as though she were the sole source.

I have nothing to dispute here. I completely agree.

Yona contributes, but the narrative repeatedly turns collective work into an extension of Yona. Other people provide strength, information, strategy, sacrifice, experience and administration. Afterwards, someone explains that everything happened because Yona inspires people, works harder than anyone else or will create a better world.

Not a coincidence at all. In order to become a bird, in order to acquire broad knowledge and wisdom, one sometimes has to go through hell. That is why those two are birds.

That may be symbolically true, but it does not answer the question of narrative injustice.

Suffering may produce wisdom. It does not require Soo-won and Zeno to receive the harshest endings, nor does it justify other characters benefiting from their wisdom while they themselves are left dispossessed.

Saying that they passed through hell in order to become birds is beautiful. It is also very convenient for those who inherit the nest, the kingdom and the applause.

Soo-won and Zeno both possess different but important kinds of wisdom. They have acquired a broader perspective than everyone else. Without that wisdom, everything goes wrong again, as it did under King Il.

Then Soo-won and Zeno remain indispensable, while the person who has been crowned does not yet possess what is required to prevent the same disaster from recurring.

No, he is not a fool.

That is fair. Calling him a fool was unnecessarily harsh, and I apologize for that wording.

He is Yona’s significant other, so of course he tends to be loyal, kind and full of illusions. Yona had to break away from illusions because she loves comfortable dreams more than reality.

Being someone’s partner does not require surrendering critical judgment. A partner can, and sometimes should, introduce friction when the other person is failing.

Loyalty does not require transforming governmental deficiencies into advance proof of greatness.

“Hak loves Yona, and therefore he cannot see reality clearly where she is concerned” may explain his behaviour. It does not make that behaviour healthy, admirable or romantic.

And if Hak knows that Yona prefers comfortable dreams to reality, his role should not be to wrap every new problem in another comfortable dream. Yet there he is, working overtime for the national department of illusion.

Soo-won understood that sometimes you need more people rather than boxes. He was as close to a perfect king as possible, but people want to help Yona. Even the most perfect ruler cannot defeat the will of the many.

A monarch does not need to be the most intelligent person in the room or perform every task alone. A good ruler must gather capable people, listen to them, coordinate their work and take responsibility for the outcome.

The problem is that the manga does not show Yona doing this particularly well. It shows other people solving problems while she receives their loyalty.

The fact that people want to help her is not automatically evidence of political competence. To turn that collective willingness into proof of good government, the story would need to show Yona distributing responsibilities, weighing competing advice, correcting mistakes, protecting the autonomy of those who assist her and accepting responsibility when the system fails.

Without that, we do not have collective leadership. We have collective labour attributed to a charismatic central figure.

Yona succeeding because people choose to help her could have been a compelling idea if the manga had said: “Yona is not the most capable person, but she learns to govern by listening to people who are better prepared than she is.”

But that is not what Hak proclaims. He says: “The day will come when you understand how fortunate we are to be Princess Yona’s people.”

There is also another problem. Much of Yona’s extraordinary authority during her journey came from travelling with the dragon warriors and from being identified with the Crimson Dragon. Those things gave her immense symbolic power, military power and an almost supernatural ability to draw people towards her.

Now the dragons are gone, and Yona is no longer being presented as the Crimson Dragon. What remains is a very young, poorly educated and inexperienced ruler. That does not mean she is doomed to fail. It means the manga must now demonstrate, rather than merely proclaim, what makes her capable of ruling without the divine authority and power that carried so much of her journey.

Indeed. But in the moment she is still pretty unexperienced. At the moment she needs pretty much help.

It is true that she lacks knowledge and education. However, there is at least one lesson she should already understand through direct experience: life inside the castle gives her a much poorer view of the country than life outside it.

As a queen she is more bound and cannot just walk out like she used to. Especially since everybody knows she is the queen. I guess she might color her hair, if she - sometimes - goes out.

Nevertheless she has now to care for a whole country, therefore she has to stay for a certain time at the castle. Especially now, as she is still soaking up knowledge.

She spent her childhood isolated inside the castle and then travelled through Kouka, however involuntarily at first. She should not need two months as queen before receiving this realization like Saint Paul on the road to Damascus.

Why not? She is completely inexperienced as a ruler for a great country. She is 16 years old and is right now cramming her head with all the abstract knowledge she can get. Making mistakes is a given in that situation.

I do not see it that way. That interpretation removes Yona’s agency precisely when responsibility is being discussed, only to restore it when she is presented as a legitimate and admirable sovereign.

But Yona did not know, what it meant to be ruler. Soo Won had experienced it already. So he is in a better position to consider the given situation than Yona.

Yes, she has agency. She tries it with full force. He should still have considered, how young she still is. However, truth be told. Soo Won is himself also only 18 years old. We are speaking about very young adults to teenagers.

The former generation massively fucked up, so that merely half-children are left.

Actually, as an adult I am a little shocked how much responsibility this young teenagers to young adults have.

Soo-won may certainly have been wrong to offer her the crown without arranging a sufficient transition. But Yona accepted it. She knew that he was gravely injured, that she would depend heavily on his assistance, and that she lacked the necessary education and experience. Her inability to bring herself to refuse him explains her decision emotionally. It does not erase the fact that she made that decision.

You are right. It was naive of her to make this decision. But unfortunately Yona is naive. The greatest pain she experienced was losing her father and even then there was Hak, shielding her. Later she acquired a small army in the form of the dragon warriors. She could jump into a rain of arrows and she was fine.

So nothing ever happened to her. Zeno and Soo Won felt the consequences of their decisions. But well, sometimes Yona has to experience pain to get it.

That may be symbolically true, but it does not answer the question of narrative injustice.

I guess, it is a given that Yona was pampered while Soo Won and Zeno had to go through hell. Life is sometimes unfair. But these experiences, this pain also taught them important lessons.

Right now, Yona is slightly hurting, too. Without a little pain and learnt experience, you won´t acquire "wings".

Suffering may produce wisdom. It does not require Soo-won and Zeno to receive the harshest endings, nor does it justify other characters benefiting from their wisdom while they themselves are left dispossessed.

Yes, I fully agree. It is so unfair that Zeno and Soo Won had to suffer so greatly...that they had to go through hell. It is an injustice. But unfortunately they were part of horrifying systems that were prone to "produce" such sacrifices.

That these sacrifices were unnecessary might be one moral of this story.

Saying that they passed through hell in order to become birds is beautiful. It is also very convenient for those who inherit the nest, the kingdom and the applause.

Soo Won and Zeno - unfortunately - held some believes that turnt out horrifying for especially them. Only through some pain they could let go of these believes...but that is one reason they are currently "floating"...

For both core convictions crumbled in the last arc.

Being someone’s partner does not require surrendering critical judgment. A partner can, and sometimes should, introduce friction when the other person is failing.

Actually I tried to express that Hak resembles Yona in that point. They are very kind, but are dreamers and tend to see the world how they wish to see it. Unfortunately.

Loyalty does not require transforming governmental deficiencies into advance proof of greatness. “Hak loves Yona, and therefore he cannot see reality clearly where she is concerned” may explain his behaviour. It does not make that behaviour healthy, admirable or romantic.

I agree. Some people wouldn´t. And the behaviour is not healthy or admirable. But Hak is like this. He is not just loyal, he is absolutely loyal and unfortunately prone to fall for illusions. In a way he has changed "Soo Won the king" for"Yona the queen".

But an illusion it still is.

And if Hak knows that Yona prefers comfortable dreams to reality, his role should not be to wrap every new problem in another comfortable dream. Yet there he is, working overtime for the national department of illusion.

Great! Your insight is great. Indeed. I came to the same conclusion, that Hak easily falls into these traps, if he is left alone.

However, Hak confuses the dreams for reality himself. Therefore he is -blissfully- unaware of the statue of things.

A monarch does not need to be the most intelligent person in the room or perform every task alone. A good ruler must gather capable people, listen to them, coordinate their work and take responsibility for the outcome.

Indeed. Soo Won came to the same conclusion. However Yona is not - yet- able to perform this task. Therefore Keishuk and Soo Won take much of her responsibility.

The problem is that the manga does not show Yona doing this particularly well. It shows other people solving problems while she receives their loyalty.

Like in an illusion of grandeur, right? Indeed, this is a problem and I guess it might be solved. However, she might never be the great leader people wish her to be. But she might get people to help her on her way.

Like we both concluded. Yona has never solved a problem on her own. And she won´t be able to do it in the future. Without all the people she knows, she would not be able to do anything.

Soo Won is already trying to change the given system in order to take in more responsible people. As the monarch helds too much power in his eyes, now.

I have an inkling that the development goes in the direction of a democracy.

The fact that people want to help her is not automatically evidence of political competence. To turn that collective willingness into proof of good government, the story would need to show Yona distributing responsibilities, weighing competing advice, correcting mistakes, protecting the autonomy of those who assist her and accepting responsibility when the system fails.

She still has a long way to go...

Without that, we do not have collective leadership. We have collective labour attributed to a charismatic central figure.

Indeed. This is the trap the people are right now prone to falling. She is considered the reincarnation of the dragon god, after all. Her fame attributes too much of the success to her. Even though, strictly, speaking Yona is right now merely a charismatic figure, but not the central power. She needs to develop this.

And Soo Won has to really develop a backbone again, because he sometimes needs to go against her, challenge her again. Yona is not a really driven person.

Yona succeeding because people choose to help her could have been a compelling idea if the manga had said: “Yona is not the most capable person, but she learns to govern by listening to people who are better prepared than she is.” But that is not what Hak proclaims. He says: “The day will come when you understand how fortunate we are to be Princess Yona’s people.”

Yes! Yes! Yes! Completely delusional...Kusanagi himself mentioned something similar in an interview...even if the expression was not that strong.

There is also another problem. Much of Yona’s extraordinary authority during her journey came from travelling with the dragon warriors and from being identified with the Crimson Dragon. Those things gave her immense symbolic power, military power and an almost supernatural ability to draw people towards her.

Indeed. Indeed. This is a point. People would not attribute power to her, if she was not the reincarnation.

Determination and effort matter. They are not substitutes for knowledge, judgment, accountability and effective government.

Soo-won did not truly know what ruling a country meant until he actually became king either. The crucial difference was preparation: Soo-won possessed the necessary knowledge and could organize and make decisions. Yona does not yet possess that knowledge or demonstrate the same ability to organize. Other people perform much of that work, while the narrative often transfers the resulting credit to her.

Yes, she has agency. She tries with all her strength. He should still have considered how young she is. However, Soo-won himself is only eighteen. We are speaking about teenagers and very young adults.

Trying with all one’s strength is an exercise of agency, but it is not proof of competence, preparation or sound judgment.

Yona had the agency to accept the crown. That means she must also bear responsibility for accepting a position she was not prepared to hold. Effort does not make the decision wise, nor does it automatically make her capable of fulfilling the role.

And why must her youth excuse her whenever responsibility is discussed, while at other times the narrative presents her as the kingdom’s greatest warrior, future saviour and natural sovereign? That double standard is precisely what bothers me.

The former generation massively failed, leaving little more than children behind.

Yes. What a magnificent collection of responsible adults they were.

As an adult, I am rather shocked by how much responsibility these teenagers and young adults carry.

I agree that eighteen is extremely young for this degree of responsibility, at least from my own cultural perspective. Other societies and historical periods have drawn adulthood much earlier, so I would not treat our present standards as universal.

What bothers me is not simply their age. It is that age is used as an excuse selectively: Yona is a child when her errors require accountability, but an extraordinary leader when the story wants admiration for her.

It was naive of her to make this decision. Unfortunately, Yona is naive. The greatest pain she experienced was losing her father, and even then Hak protected her. Later, she acquired a small army in the dragon warriors. She could jump into a rain of arrows and remain unharmed.

The famous rain of arrows. Please do not remind me.

But yes, I see Yona’s naivety as a serious argument against her suitability to rule, not as a mitigating virtue. An ingenuous sovereign is extremely vulnerable. Either she learns quickly, or other people will manipulate her and the country will pay the price.

That these sacrifices were unnecessary might be one moral of the story.

I am honestly unable to derive that interpretation from the text. I do not mean that dismissively; it simply had never occurred to me. I would have to think about it.

Soo-won and Zeno held beliefs that proved horrifying, especially for them. Only through pain could they relinquish those beliefs, and that is one reason they are currently “floating.” Both of their central convictions collapsed in the final arc.

Soo-won and Zeno may be “floating,” but to me they appear to be floating in a sea of depression.

Their former convictions may have collapsed, and that can certainly form part of a meaningful character transformation. I still do not find their outcomes beautiful, fair or emotionally adequate. Losing a destructive conviction does not require being left emptied of purpose, identity and reward while others inherit the fruits of your suffering.

I was trying to express that Hak resembles Yona in this respect. They are kind, but they are dreamers and tend to see the world as they wish it to be.

Unfortunately, yes. They reinforce one another’s preferred reality and remain inside the same comfortable bubble. I do not regard that as a promising path for either a relationship or a government.

Hak is not merely loyal; he is absolutely loyal and inclined to fall for illusions. In a way, he has replaced “Soo-won the king” with “Yona the queen.” But it remains an illusion.

I agree. My problem is that the manga appears to present this as something beautiful.

Hak mistakes dreams for reality himself. Therefore, he is blissfully unaware of the state of things.

What a marvellous condition: moving through life without noticing what is happening around you.

I find it deeply sad rather than blissful. Hak’s loyalty has ceased to coexist with judgment and has begun to replace it.

Soo-won came to the same conclusion. However, Yona is not yet able to perform this task. Therefore, Kye-sook and Soo-won assume much of her responsibility.

The main story has ended, and only one gaiden chapter remains. At this point, I think it is fair to remove the word “yet.”

Yona is not currently capable of performing that role. What she might become later will depend entirely on each reader’s imagination, because the manga has almost run out of pages in which to show it.

This is a problem, and I suppose it might be solved. She may never become the great leader people expect her to be, but she may persuade people to help her along the way.

Or she may not. We cannot know unless the final gaiden chapter contains another two hundred pages and resolves everything still pending.

As the text currently stands, Yona lacks the education, demonstrated judgment and political character required to govern effectively without extensive support. Perhaps she will acquire them in two years. Perhaps she will not. Either answer now belongs to the reader, not to the completed narrative.

The manga can only be assessed by what it has actually shown.

She still has a long way to go.

She needs to develop this.

Yes. The small problem is that the story is over.

Soo-won really needs to develop a backbone again, because he sometimes needs to oppose and challenge her. Yona is not a particularly driven person.

What Soo-won should do is retire somewhere far from the palace and live whatever life he chooses. He could read, since he enjoys it, and plant potatoes if the mood takes him.

I do not see why his future must remain dedicated to guiding, challenging and educating Yona when the entire universe already seems organized around supporting her.

He has already surrendered his health, youth, reign and future to Kouka. He should not now be assigned the additional lifelong task of supplying its new queen with judgment and resolve.

Yona will probably learn this, more or less, if she is not prevented from doing so. So yes, Soo-won has a great deal of work ahead of him.

And we return to the same conclusion: the solution to Yona’s problems remains in Soo-won’s hands.

Yona may receive the crown, loyalty and public faith, but Soo-won must still provide knowledge, reform the system, challenge her illusions and help her become capable of governing.

Indeed. But Yona was not given the chance to prepare herself. Her father did not educate her like this, as she was not considered his heir.

So she started a lot later than Soo Won, who has been raised to be the Crown Prince and later king since he was basically a baby.

Trying with all one’s strength is an exercise of agency, but it is not proof of competence, preparation or sound judgment. Yona had the agency to accept the crown. That means she must also bear responsibility for accepting a position she was not prepared to hold. Effort does not make the decision wise, nor does it automatically make her capable of fulfilling the role.

True. In a position like Yona´s you can hardly say "I tried" and be done with. Effort does not count, if people are suffering or Yona makes horrible decisions.

Currently luckily she has counselors, who take over much of her work. Like she has merely 1/4 of the actual tasks of a ruler of Kouka.

And why must her youth excuse her whenever responsibility is discussed, while at other times the narrative presents her as the kingdom’s greatest warrior, future saviour and natural sovereign? That double standard is precisely what bothers me.

Yes, i agree, that it is unfair that she gets so much fame, but she is still 16 years old. This is awfully young for an uneducated person to be responsible for the lives of thousands of people.

It is therefore less of an "excuse", but a fact that she is awfully young and this girl would not be considered an adult in my country. She would not be able to drive or even vote. But she rules a whole country in this time line. There is a certain reason, why children are protected before they become adults, as they sometimes are not fully aware of the risks they take. Their brains have not yet developed fully.

But yes, I see Yona’s naivety as a serious argument against her suitability to rule, not as a mitigating virtue. An ingenuous sovereign is extremely vulnerable. Either she learns quickly, or other people will manipulate her and the country will pay the price.

One can hope, that she loses the naivety as she makes experiences.

Soo-won and Zeno may be “floating,” but to me they appear to be floating in a sea of depression. Their former convictions may have collapsed, and that can certainly form part of a meaningful character transformation. I still do not find their outcomes beautiful, fair or emotionally adequate. Losing a destructive conviction does not require being left emptied of purpose, identity and reward while others inherit the fruits of your suffering.

Indeed. Life is unfair and many of their pains are unnecessary. Unfortunately, if you break down or lose a very important conviction it often happens that depressive tendencies, the feeling of losing the ground beneath your feet, is an effect.

Unfortunately, I have experiences with this statue. It is therefore natural, that both feel like this.

And yes, I also think so much of this is unfair to both of them.

I am honestly unable to derive that interpretation from the text. I do not mean that dismissively; it simply had never occurred to me. I would have to think about it.

If you consider both systems - King Il and Yu hon´s - as some sort of cults, you might understand it better. There is a lot of "brain-washing", and manipulation involved that directly impacted both Soo Won and Zeno.

Unfortunately, yes. They reinforce one another’s preferred reality and remain inside the same comfortable bubble. I do not regard that as a promising path for either a relationship or a government.

Soo Won´s job is hard. I am truly not jealous of him for having to persuade those two.

I agree. My problem is that the manga appears to present this as something beautiful.

I think, I cannot completely disagree here. Yes, many love his devotion, but i am also not the greatest fan of it, honestly. But don´t you think, that not more people will realize in the latest chapter, that something isn´t right with Hak´s perception?

Yona is not currently capable of performing that role. What she might become later will depend entirely on each reader’s imagination, because the manga has almost run out of pages in which to show it.

Unfortunately, fair. I don´t understand it, why Kusanagi presented it like this. This is the second-to-last chapter, after all.

Or she may not. We cannot know unless the final gaiden chapter contains another two hundred pages and resolves everything still pending. As the text currently stands, Yona lacks the education, demonstrated judgment and political character required to govern effectively without extensive support. Perhaps she will acquire them in two years. Perhaps she will not. Either answer now belongs to the reader, not to the completed narrative. The manga can only be assessed by what it has actually shown.

I so hope for a spin-off or something along those lines. As I really don´t understand the decision of the mangaka. As you said, it would need a good of 200 pages to resolve every issue.

What Soo-won should do is retire somewhere far from the palace and live whatever life he chooses. He could read, since he enjoys it, and plant potatoes if the mood takes him. I do not see why his future must remain dedicated to guiding, challenging and educating Yona when the entire universe already seems organized around supporting her. He has already surrendered his health, youth, reign and future to Kouka. He should not now be assigned the additional lifelong task of supplying its new queen with judgment and resolve.

Do you honestly believe this? He would never do this. Unfortunately for him, fortunately for everybody else.

The entire country would fall into the next King Il era, if Soo Won was not there.

Though i believe, that he would fancy planting potatoes....

And we return to the same conclusion: the solution to Yona’s problems remains in Soo-won’s hands. Yona may receive the crown, loyalty and public faith, but Soo-won must still provide knowledge, reform the system, challenge her illusions and help her become capable of governing. That is precisely the imbalance I have been criticizing from the beginning.

Then I think the logical solution is fairly simple.

If Yona’s age, lack of education and immaturity are such serious obstacles, she should not retain full sovereign authority while the reader is asked to excuse her inability to exercise it. She could abdicate until she is properly prepared, just as Soo-won abdicated when he believed he could no longer continue. A regency could be established, or a council could be given genuine governing authority while Yona is publicly recognised as a sovereign in training.

That would also mean that immediate credit went to the people who actually administer, reform, decide and solve problems. Yona could receive recognition for her progress when she had actually made that progress. A revolutionary concept, apparently: credit after the work.

Currently, fortunately, she has counsellors who assume much of her work. She has perhaps only one quarter of the actual duties of a ruler of Kouka.

If Soo-won, Kye-sook and the others are carrying most of the workload, that already resembles an informal regency, with one peculiar arrangement: other people govern, Yona reigns, and the narrative transfers the credit upwards.

If that situation were formally acknowledged, it would at least be institutionally honest. The story could say plainly that Yona is not ready, that she is learning under a governing council, and that she will assume full responsibility when she has demonstrated that she can exercise it.

I agree that it is unfair that she receives so much fame, but she is still sixteen years old. That is extremely young for an uneducated person to be responsible for thousands of lives. It is therefore less an excuse than a fact.

Her youth explains her limitations. It does not justify allowing her to exercise an authority for which that same youth supposedly makes her unfit.

Yona also has the agency to conclude that she is not yet prepared to rule. Accepting the crown because she could not bring herself to refuse Soo-won, because she wanted to relieve his burden or because she had good intentions does not oblige her to remain on the throne once it becomes clear that other people are preventing the government from falling apart.

What I find inconsistent is the double standard.

When accountability is discussed, Yona is a poorly educated sixteen-year-old whose brain is still developing. When authority, obedience and praise are distributed, she becomes the legitimate, inspiring and extraordinary sovereign who will lead her people towards happiness.

She cannot be too young to bear responsibility while remaining old enough to retain all the power and prestige. Well, technically she can, because the manga allows it. Coherent it is not.

“She is too young” only works as a complete defence if it leads to a political consequence: she should not govern yet.

If the conclusion is instead that she is too young, so everyone else must perform most of the work while she remains queen and Hak proclaims how fortunate the people are to belong to her, that is not the protection of a minor. It is the protection of a protagonist.

And Yona never seems “awfully young” when praise is being handed out. At those moments she ages with miraculous speed.

One can hope that she loses her naivety through experience.

I hope for something more concrete: that she makes a serious mistake, that nobody immediately rescues her from it, that the mistake has real consequences, that she has to admit what she did, and that she learns because reality finally refuses to cushion the impact.

That would be growth to me.

Expecting her to lose her naivety through experience while Soo-won, Kye-sook, Hak and half the kingdom absorb every blow is rather like expecting someone to learn to swim without getting wet.

Life is unfair, and much of their pain was unnecessary. Unfortunately, when an important conviction collapses, depressive tendencies and the feeling of losing the ground beneath one’s feet can follow. I have personal experience with this state, so it seems natural to me that both of them feel this way.

Life can be truly awful. I can certainly attest to that. But it also contains a few very small good things, and I hold on to those tiny things to keep moving forward.

I am sorry that you have gone through such painful experiences. I sincerely hope you are doing better now.

If you consider both systems, King Il’s and Yu-hon’s, as forms of cults, you may understand it better. There was a great deal of brainwashing and manipulation that directly affected both Soo-won and Zeno.

I am sorry, but instead of thinking that “the unnecessary nature of these sacrifices may be one of the story’s morals,” my immediate thought was that the cult of King Il and the cult of Yu-hon have simply been replaced by the cult of Yona, now operating at full strength.

If the problem was the worship of Il, the worship of Yu-hon, blind obedience, faith placed above evidence and people being absorbed into a central figure, then the ending should have broken that pattern.

It does not break it. It recycles it with Yona at the centre.

Hak believes in her even when reality contradicts that belief. Collective achievements are attributed to her. Other people compensate for her limitations. Her charisma becomes legitimacy. Her youth excuses her failures, but her authority remains unquestioned. Criticism repeatedly dissolves into “she works very hard” or “she inspires people.”

That makes it difficult for me to read “the sacrifices were unnecessary” as the central moral, because the system that produces personal sacrifice around an idealised figure is still functioning.

Soo-won continues working. Hak continues dissolving into his function. Other people continue supplying knowledge, competence, experience and suffering. Yona continues receiving the symbolic centre.

The story does not seem to say, “Do not build cults.”

It seems to say, “Choose the correct person to worship.”

And naturally, the correct choice is Yona. How revolutionary.

Soo-won’s task is difficult. I do not envy him having to persuade those two.

But it is not Soo-won’s task.

Hak and Yona are responsible for leaving their own comfortable bubble. Soo-won may confront them because he cares about them or because their decisions affect Kouka, but he should not become their lifelong tutor in applied reality.

He has already done enough. He understood Il’s failure, seized power, rebuilt the kingdom, responded to wars and crises, endured the Crimson Illness, lost the throne and was left physically damaged. He should not now be expected to continue supplying the judgment and intellectual structure required by the people who receive the applause.

Let him grow potatoes. Let him discover whether he prefers turnips. Let him read for three days without anyone asking him how to save Kouka. Let Gulfan return to him and spend his time frightening crows, since the bird has apparently also been requisitioned for Yonistic messenger service.

If the kingdom collapses the moment Soo-won stops correcting the new queen, the conclusion is not that Soo-won owes Kouka another lifetime of sacrifice.

The conclusion is that Yona was not ready to receive the crown.

But do you not think that more readers may realise in the final chapter that something is wrong with Hak’s perception?

Honestly, I do not think the final chapter will cause most readers to interpret Hak differently from the way they have interpreted him throughout the manga.

I would be pleasantly surprised if the story finally introduced genuine criticism of his perception. But after years of presenting this devotion as the height of romance, I do not find that very likely.

I hope very much for a spin-off or something similar. I do not understand the mangaka’s decision. As you said, resolving everything would require around two hundred pages.

Please, no.

A spin-off would no longer feel like hope to me. It would feel like a threat.

In theory, it could resolve many of the abandoned issues. But that would require confidence that the manga intended to confront those issues rigorously. After the Chalice arc, that confidence is buried beneath the mausoleum alongside causality.

At this point, the prudent response seems to be to leave the story as it is.

I have already built my own version, one in which consequences exist and the characters retain their dignity.

Do you honestly believe Soo-won would retire? He would never do that. Unfortunately for him, fortunately for everybody else.

I do believe it. In fact, that is what will happen in my imagination.

Soo-won will retire. While Yona and her government discover whether devotion can replace administration, Soo-won will be drinking tea peacefully at his residence with his wife, Lili.

Who can prevent me from imagining that? The narrative cannot. It has nearly ended. The canon no longer has jurisdiction over my imagination.

Naturally, if the final chapter makes my imagined continuation impossible, I will have to invent another one. But that seems unlikely.

The entire country would fall into another King Il era if Soo-won were not there.

Then Yona cannot govern. It really is that simple.

If the survival of the kingdom requires the former king to continue thinking, reforming, correcting and challenging the new queen, then the abdication transferred only the title, not the work.

Soo-won probably would not retire voluntarily, because duty has held him by the throat since childhood. That is precisely why imagining his retirement feels reparative.

Yona’s inability to preserve the kingdom without him does not create an infinite moral obligation for Soo-won. It demonstrates that crowning her was a mistake. He does not owe the rest of his life to concealing that mistake.

The future was left open enough that my continuation remains compatible with what has been shown, unless the final chapter gives us a time-skip and explicitly establishes another outcome.

Given the gaiden’s pace, it seems more likely that Hak will say “Princess” fourteen times than that we will receive a detailed institutional reform.

Though I believe he might enjoy growing potatoes.

If the field is large, one ends the day with an aching back from bending down so much. Rather like the grape harvest.

Yes, this would be a rather good transition and maybe this would lead to maintain said council, which could someday mean real representatives of the people. In the case the council would be formed by voted politicians in the future. I mean, the system could be adapted, since I believe, that whoever takes the power wouldn´t want to give it up, even after Yona was ready.

Your solution sounds very good, though.

If Soo-won, Kye-sook and the others are carrying most of the workload, that already resembles an informal regency, with one peculiar arrangement: other people govern, Yona reigns, and the narrative transfers the credit upwards. If that situation were formally acknowledged, it would at least be institutionally honest. The story could say plainly that Yona is not ready, that she is learning under a governing council, and that she will assume full responsibility when she has demonstrated that she can exercise it.

Possible. It would also remove the god-like aura off her. I would be on board, but I am not sure, if most of her fans would not be utterly disappointed.

I am sorry, but instead of thinking that “the unnecessary nature of these sacrifices may be one of the story’s morals,” my immediate thought was that the cult of King Il and the cult of Yu-hon have simply been replaced by the cult of Yona, now operating at full strength.

The danger is there, you are right. If Soo Won does not take action, Yona will become basically a worse version of her father. People might even tolerate it more, since it is glorious Yona, after all.

I know, I know, that Hak and Yona could be better in that regard, but the truth is, this might be not the case. Soo Won, however, is reasonable in comparison. And reason has to reign in Yona´s glory or we will end up with fate.

Her youth explains her limitations. It does not justify allowing her to exercise an authority for which that same youth supposedly makes her unfit. Yona also has the agency to conclude that she is not yet prepared to rule. Accepting the crown because she could not bring herself to refuse Soo-won, because she wanted to relieve his burden or because she had good intentions does not oblige her to remain on the throne once it becomes clear that other people are preventing the government from falling apart.

You are still talking about the person, who has jumped in a rain of arrows; who does not know accountability, because she is prone to fall for illusions and was overprotected her whole life.

Everybody else has always rescued her, and Soo Won has promised to support her, so she thought it was alright.

Yes a normal 16 year old would have likely refrained from this. But this is the "darling of the heavens", so her point of view has been severly screwed by her great fame and the fact, that the dragon warriors were her sacrifices, bleeding in her stead.

Yona hardly reflects. Rarely. She is a more emotional person and reason is not exactly her best friend.

Therefore it is reasonable for Yona to be so naive, unfortunately.

If the problem was the worship of Il, the worship of Yu-hon, blind obedience, faith placed above evidence and people being absorbed into a central figure, then the ending should have broken that pattern. It does not break it. It recycles it with Yona at the centre. Hak believes in her even when reality contradicts that belief. Collective achievements are attributed to her. Other people compensate for her limitations. Her charisma becomes legitimacy. Her youth excuses her failures, but her authority remains unquestioned. Criticism repeatedly dissolves into “she works very hard” or “she inspires people.” That makes it difficult for me to read “the sacrifices were unnecessary” as the central moral, because the system that produces personal sacrifice around an idealised figure is still functioning. Soo-won continues working. Hak continues dissolving into his function. Other people continue supplying knowledge, competence, experience and suffering. Yona continues receiving the symbolic centre. The story does not seem to say, “Do not build cults.” It seems to say, “Choose the correct person to worship.” And naturally, the correct choice is Yona. How revolutionary.

Why do you think, the mangaka is showing this friction? If she was really persuaded, that you just need the "correct person to worship", then we would see no problems or Yona "magically" resolving it. However, we see Yona struggling now for 3 chapters.

We see a good part of the generals being unsatisfied: the former Geuntae (Kulifu has most likely hardly any opinion), General Kyoga, even General Tae Woo does not seem to be so sold on Yona.

(Tae Woo is is bright, reasonable, maybe it was just my impression; it appeared more that he was himself rather reluctant, while Mundoek the great believer was - of course- convinced) and Jon Gi does appear to favor Yona. Especially interesting that instead of Tae Woo (reason) his "other half" Hendai made an appearance. And Hendai is all feeling and motivation, but has little reason in comparison. Tae Woo was literally sick in that chapter.

Honestly I was fascinated how Tae Jun, the dumbest person in the entire manga (sorry if you should be a fan, but Tae Jun is really not the brightest light on the cake), was the first figure to appear in the first chapter of the gaiden: Tae Jun as the former pampered son of the former Fire General is such a clear mirror to Yona, while his brother (a mirror to Soo Won) appeared far more reluctant in the next chapter. Kyoga (reason) was horrified and worried. For a good reason.

What I do not understand is, if this were truly the 4 last chapters with 0 continuations, no spin-off ect...then I don´t understand the direction. Then I don´t understand, why the narrative collides with Hak point of view.

The narrative should approve and cement Hak´s point of view, not contradict him.

We are - like you said it- back at the beginning. Big problems have arisen. Reason should be stronger in order to avoid a next King Il, aka Queen Yona. But usually you do not show this until the second-to-last chapter.

But it is not Soo-won’s task. Hak and Yona are responsible for leaving their own comfortable bubble. Soo-won may confront them because he cares about them or because their decisions affect Kouka, but he should not become their lifelong tutor in applied reality. He has already done enough. He understood Il’s failure, seized power, rebuilt the kingdom, responded to wars and crises, endured the Crimson Illness, lost the throne and was left physically damaged. He should not now be expected to continue supplying the judgment and intellectual structure required by the people who receive the applause. Let him grow potatoes. Let him discover whether he prefers turnips. Let him read for three days without anyone asking him how to save Kouka. Let Gulfan return to him and spend his time frightening crows, since the bird has apparently also been requisitioned for Yonistic messenger service. If the kingdom collapses the moment Soo-won stops correcting the new queen, the conclusion is not that Soo-won owes Kouka another lifetime of sacrifice. The conclusion is that Yona was not ready to receive the crown.

If not him, who else? Can we let a whole country decline in another King Il´s era? Do you know, how many people would suffer again?

Also Soo Won cares too deeply for the wellbeing of the people, he would never run away from this task.

Hak can be "sharp" under Soo Won´s influence. His way of thinking has seaped into Hak as well. And he might lose a little bit of his delusional attitude.

And even Yona finds her drive and reason, if Soo Won pushes her.

Of course, Soo Won needs people who support him, as well. Handling Yona and Hak is not the most fun task I could imagine.

Honestly, I do not think the final chapter will cause most readers to interpret Hak differently from the way they have interpreted him throughout the manga. I would be pleasantly surprised if the story finally introduced genuine criticism of his perception. But after years of presenting this devotion as the height of romance, I do not find that very likely.

However, you mean, that his point of view is literally contradicted by the narrative...Don´t you think, that this would make a difference?

If we literally have a dissonance between "two stories" - Hak´s and the one of the objective truth?

Life can be truly awful. I can certainly attest to that. But it also contains a few very small good things, and I hold on to those tiny things to keep moving forward. I am sorry that you have gone through such painful experiences. I sincerely hope you are doing better now.

Thank you and I am sorry to hear, that you had similar experiences. Yes, right now my life goes in a better direction. Finally.

Please, no. A spin-off would no longer feel like hope to me. It would feel like a threat. In theory, it could resolve many of the abandoned issues. But that would require confidence that the manga intended to confront those issues rigorously. After the Chalice arc, that confidence is buried beneath the mausoleum alongside causality. At this point, the prudent response seems to be to leave the story as it is. I have already built my own version, one in which consequences exist and the characters retain their dignity.

The manga appears to have an overall pretty logical structure. Even the mausoleum arc was narratively a reasonable conclusion, even though it was not so spectacular like I would have desired.

Unfortunately I can only demonstrate this in a couple of weeks time, as I still need more time with my meta. It consoled me a little to adumbrate the meaning and structure a little, since I have followed this work for about 10 years.

I would appreciate a spin-off or further chapters as it could be solved. Maybe not all, but the most important issues at least.

I do believe it. In fact, that is what will happen in my imagination. Soo-won will retire. While Yona and her government discover whether devotion can replace administration, Soo-won will be drinking tea peacefully at his residence with his wife, Lili. Who can prevent me from imagining that? The narrative cannot. It has nearly ended. The canon no longer has jurisdiction over my imagination. Naturally, if the final chapter makes my imagined continuation impossible, I will have to invent another one. But that seems unlikely.

Fanfiction, ahoy! I wish him all the best.

Then Yona cannot govern. It really is that simple. If the survival of the kingdom requires the former king to continue thinking, reforming, correcting and challenging the new queen, then the abdication transferred only the title, not the work. Soo-won probably would not retire voluntarily, because duty has held him by the throat since childhood. That is precisely why imagining his retirement feels reparative. Yona’s inability to preserve the kingdom without him does not create an infinite moral obligation for Soo-won. It demonstrates that crowning her was a mistake. He does not owe the rest of his life to concealing that mistake. The future was left open enough that my continuation remains compatible with what has been shown, unless the final chapter gives us a time-skip and explicitly establishes another outcome. Given the gaiden’s pace, it seems more likely that Hak will say “Princess” fourteen times than that we will receive a detailed institutional reform.

Na, she cannot govern right now. But I doubt it, that Soo Won will ever give up. But one can imagine, what not is...

If the field is large, one ends the day with an aching back from bending down so much. Rather like the grape harvest. But it can be enormous fun, especially when the family works together. You laugh a great deal.

I agree with your character analyses, and I really enjoy the way you dissect them: Soo-won would not retire because he feels responsible; Hak behaves this way because he is loyal and idealistic; and Yona struggles because she is young and unprepared.

My concern, however, lies elsewhere. These personalities and circumstances were themselves written choices.

For example, “Soo-won would never abandon Kouka” explains his behaviour within the story, and I completely agree with your analysis on that point. What troubles me is why the author chose an ending in which he remains unable to rest and continues carrying the practical responsibilities of ruling, while Yona receives the title, authority and recognition.

Both readings can coexist, but I think this difference explains why we sometimes appear to be answering different questions.

Indeed. It makes no sense.

It is wonderfully strange, that she does show plainly that Yona is failing/has huge problems.

If I truly wished to end a manga and wished to make money with it, I would not waste the last 4 chapters on tension, but would show complete bliss after years. Give the fans, what they desire and start a new series.

She could have showed Yona as a competent ruler years later. Nobody would have said something, or almost nobody. Soo Won could have really retired and planted potatoes. The former dragon warriors with their families.

Then Yona could have married Hak. Their kids ect...

A little nice life at the end.

I also wonder, because this is supposed to be a shojo - so for relatively young girls. Should a work like this not have a happy end? Bitter ends or literal misery can be used in fiction for adults, but for young adults? And above else she demonstrates like this, that all the pain was completely in vain, if Yona is King Il 2.0

My concern, however, lies elsewhere. These personalities and circumstances were themselves written choices.

I can only come to 2 conclusions. If you have another possibility in mind, I am all ears:

This is not the end she actually wished for. She altered a part of the story for a reason. Either she had miscalculated how long the manga would be and she had literal no space left. Or editors were against something and this end is an act of defiance. Personally I don´t think, the last option can be true. Nobody would destroy their own livelihood for such a reason.

There is actually a continuation for this manga.

In any case, I genuinely enjoy discussing this with you, and I appreciate how thoughtful and respectful our conversation is.