The realm of Lindon

A lot of people seemed to like my Nelyar “Who’s who?” post, so here’s the Quendi “Who’s who?” Edition! Includes details and my musings in the notes, and mostly correct proportions in the pie chart. For the sub-sections of Sindar and Nandor, I split them evenly since, to my knowledge, there is no known number. Most of my information came from “The War of the Jewels: Quendi and the Eldar.”

notes below the break:

Meanwhile, over in Beleriand, the Noldor are taking over and boy are they bad at ruling. Within a little over five hundred years, they've committed two additional kinslayings, reduced most of Beleriand to a smoking crater, and, to top it all off, dragged everyone else who was living there into their bizarre, jewel-focused conflict.

You are, to put it lightly, less than impressed with their governing skills.

Then, as it turns out, some Noldor survive. And they drift into Eriador. And start establishing more kingdoms.

The only thing that has provably deterred the Noldor from coming in and claiming land and people as theirs (which these wood-elves most certainly are not, thank you very much) are the Sindar. You don't want a Sinda as king, but, well, needs must, so you go find one and offer him a deal: he gets to claim kingship of the Greenwood if he promises to mostly leave you alone. He agrees.

This is Oropher, not Thranduil. But after a little while, Oropher dies in the Last Alliance, and you're left with his son.

...his son who, as it happens, isn't all that interested in ruling, and has spent the last few thousand years watch his father mostly do nothing and let the various councils sort things out themselves.

"Well," you say to him, "we still need someone to keep the Noldor off our backs—Galadriel's been thinking about moving east, and if she moves in she'll start growing invasive species here. Do you want the job?"

Thranduil, who was thinking of going in to theater before all this, pauses. "Would you mind if I swanned around in a long robe all day and acted very snooty around diplomats?"

"Not at all."

me: the anger the teleri on the east side of the sea and edain have towards the valar. The Valar totally equated their lives with shiny rocks, only coming to help after earendil gave them a silmaril. not everyone was Noldor, and not even the Noldor deserved such pettiness from the Valar. Any goodwill the Morquendi and Edain had towards the Valar, such as for Yavanna, Ulmo and Orome, who never abandoned ME prior to the Noldors return, would be non existent post WoW. I am also thinking of and edain cursing manwe (and it working) “May their* final breaths haunt you” *the ones who died from your negligence. And Oromes would be… “may you never have a clean kill again and be reminded of our suffering.” And a Nando telling off the valar that they are not masters of Arda just a corner of it. And an Edain (not from a major house) saying that the valar have no claim to the silmarils and they would burn them too.

of tolkien: hey what are

you thinking about?

Since I’m unable to work on my own meta ideas, I’ll work on someone elses :)

1) Must be about the Lindi peoples

2) Must be following this blog

Azaghâl was a girl

Elwing’s Maiarin blood got sparked by the Silmaril she was exposed to in utero, so she wound up like her grandmother, Susan Sto Helit-style, despite Dior being fully human

Nimloth saw herself as marrying into the House of Bëor rather than Dior marrying into Eldarin society

It wasn’t all Feänors fault, Nolofinwë was a part of the problem too

Actually, there’s not a single guiltless person in the entirety of the Silmarillion

Sauron, initially, wanted to change as Annatar, but he fell so far past the point of no return

@sylvanprincess​​ Thanks for responding! I love these debates :)

maybe “Erased” isn’t the correct word, but it certainly a dead language. Silvan (Nandorin) was originally spoken in Silvan realms but was gradually displaced by Sindarin. Sindarin with an accent yes, but still Sindarin. Silvan is not spoken anywhere by the Third Age, and in fact, Barely anything is known about it!

In the LOTR indexes, it’s written that in Lórien, Sindarin is spoken with an accent and that’s what Legolas has to translate. The only remains of their language are words like, Caras Galadhon, Amroth, Nimrodel, which are of Silvan origin, adapted to Sindarin.

Following that Note in LOTR is this passage in UT, “Though the comparison of the Silvan dialects with their own speech greatly interested the loremasters, especially those of Noldorin origin, little is now known of the Silvan Elvish…By the end of the Third Age the Silvan tongues had probably ceased to be spoken in the two regions that had importance at the time of the War of the Ring: Lórien and the realm of Thranduil in northern Mirkwood. All that survived of them in the records was a few words and several names of persons and places.” Which like. Hello??? This is a race of immortal beings??? How does this happen???

This happens for a couple reasons; assuming no active suppression of Silvan language/culture (doesn’t seem there was any, to the royal family’s credit), it’s easy to see how well-positioned Sindarin is for linguistic hegemony: Sindarin becomes a status symbol of power because it is the language and heritage of the royal family. And Sindarin becomes essential to an average Silvan when it is institutionalized: politics and trade and warfare are conducted in Sindarin. Sindarin influences, it links, it compels. To survive and interact successfully within the colonizer-run society, you prioritize the colonizer’s language.

I think if we look both at the appendices and also real world examples – and I am thinking specifically of the cases of Ainu of Japan and Kanaka Maoli (Native Hawaiian people) – what I think we could argue is that at best Silvan ‘language,’ as a Third Age Elf would know it, has turned into a moribund pidgin, spoken fluently by a minority of Silvan Elves who live deep within the Woodland Realm. It is likelier much less than that, however; given the text’s clues, Silvan language has most likely faded to merely a dialect of Sindarin: an idiosyncratic way of speaking unique to the Silvan folk that is peppered with some Silvan vocabulary, and heavily accented. That is to say, Silvan language is extinct.

(It would be cool if Thranduil, fiercely independent and protective of his Silvan people, seeking to keep Mirkwood free from the influence of certain other powerful Elves, actively engages in some form of language revitalization efforts for Silvan language. We see this in Hawai’i and Japan now: language revitalization is inextricably tied to the survival of Hawaiian and Ainu people’s distinct identity and culture in the face of ongoing occupation and imperialist suppression. Actively resurrecting and using indigenous language gathers community and builds identity separate from the colonizer’s – a powerful symbol of a people’s resilience in the face of strife and imperialism. And if Thranduil encouraged language revitalization, with it might well come a rediscovery of indigenous wisdom intrinsic in the language: Silvan ancestral methods of hunting, creating medicine, navigation, warfare, and worship. And hey, these would indubitably help Silvan folk continue thriving in the beleaguered, besieged Woodland Realm. 

I’m saying that in bold because no, the Noldor are irrelevant in this, regardless of what drafts you use. Galadriel doesn’t count as a Noldo in this - she took a Sindarin name and married a Sindarin spouse and renounced her Quenya names to Frodo, saying when she went into the West she would remain Galadriel. In this case, if you’re going to talk about her, talk about her as a Sinda. The Noldor are irrelevant in this conversation.

Using Unfinished Tales as a source is also fraught - UT’s account of the founding of Lothlórien, which includes population movements and an account of the silvan population, is contrary to the canonical Appendix B in The Lord of the Rings. If you’re going to rely on it because it’s (sadly) all of the information we have in key places, keep that in mind. In LotR canon, Galadriel neither had a son nor founded Lothlórien. This is, to me, the most canonical account, as it was approved for publication by the original author. UT was not. Again, the Noldor had nothing to do with this.

Sindarin elves have a pattern in the Second and Third Age of moving into Silvan-dominated spaces and taking over. Amdir did this. Oropher explicitly fled to Greenwood with an entire ruling class due to prejudice against dwarves. The Sindar are not good people here. This is their fault.

I bring this up because there’s a fandom trend when talking about this specific problem to dismiss the Sindar as like… less terrible? As if they weren’t extremely canonically xenophobic. No, they’re the ones responsible directly for this decline. This is something they contributed to. This is something they are tied to. Place the blame squarely on their shoulders because that’s where it belongs.

That was a Ñoldor trait, shown very strongly in the story of Eöl.

In the Silmarillion, Tolkien states that the Silvan elves were aware of the Sindar in Beleriand, so much so that many of them left Greenwood with the intent of seeking out King Thingol, who welcomed them as long-lost relatives. Thingol gave the Nandor the right to control their own land and have their own leaders, as well as allowing them to voice their concerns within his own court. I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest if the Nandor showed the Sindar the same courtesy that Thingol once gave them.

In the Unfinished Tales, Tolkien explicitly states ahat in regards to Oropher and his Sindar “They were soon merged with the Silvan Elves, adopting their language and taking names of Silvan form and style. This they did deliberately… They wished indeed to become Silvan folk and to return, as they said, to the simple life natural to the Elves before the invitation of the Valar had disturbed it.”

You state that Oropher came to Greenwood because of dwarves but that is explicitly not true, Tolkien states that these Sindar did wish to be ruled by the Ñoldorin exiles.

We are never told how Oropher and Amdír became King, but it’s heavily implied that it was the Nandor elves themselves who made them monarchs, as seen later when the Silvan elves of Lothlorien give the rulership to Celeborn and Galadriel.

The only consequence Tolkien gives us of the Sindar arrival is that the Silvan language was no longer commonly spoken, being eclipsed by Sindarin. However, with that said, in the letters of JRR Tolkien, it is mentioned that “It may be noted that at the end of the Third Age there were prob. more people (Men) that knew Q., or spoke S., than there were Elves who did either! … The Silvan Elves of Thranduil’s realm did not speak S. but a related language or dialect.”

The “S” in question is Sindarin and the “Q” is Quenya.

My general belief is that Sindarin was originally used in court and laws while the common folk spoke Silvan with Sindarin influences, the Nandarin and Sindarin soon merging to form into a new language, much like how the English itself language developed.

With that said, I must also point out that there is nothing to suggest that Amdír, Oropher or the other Sindarin elves would have been against the Silvan elves. In fact, Legolas, Thranduil’s son, is basically considered a Silvan elf himself. He even refers to himself as a Silvan elf in Lord of the Rings. And when Tolkien talks about Legolas’s cultural heritage, he calls him a Woodland Elf (a Silvan elf), “though one of royal and originally Sindarin line.”

Amroth earned his name due to his strong immersion into the Nandorin culture, and Thranduil submerged himself in the Silvan culture to the point of being regarded as “less wise” and “dangerous” by the High Elves and the White Council. So that casts aside the idea that Oropher and Amdír, nor their descendants, were responsible the the decline of the Nandorin language.

I do not believe that it anyone’s fault that the Nandor language declined, because the overall implication is that it was merely a case of cultural merge forming a new, unique language. This is shown simply by the fact that Legolas’ name is a Nandor translation of Laegolas; Tolkien noted that Thranduil’s name was also a Nandor one.

The biggest issue I have with this discussion is the infantilisation of the Nandor elves, the idea that they have absolutely no agency in regards to their language or culture. The Sindar did not invade and forcibly take over, there was a peaceful assimilation between the two. This is not even accounting for the fact that both the Sindar and Nandor were Teleri elves and would regard each other as kin.

This is not even taking into account that Tolkien originally wrote Thranduil and Celeborn as Nandor elves themselves. Then there’s the fact that very much pro-Nandor user @erunyauve once mentioned that she’d found a reference that implied a familial link between Oropher and King Denethor of the Nandor, meaning that Oropher would’ve been part Nandor himself.

I don’t like the term Nandor and I’ll explain why after I explain a little about the etymologies of Tolkien’s Elvish. There are three different timelines to know about when talking about it; internal, external and publication history. Internal History is the history of Tolkien’s languages in-verse. So when Paul Strack (and I will be following his example) says “primitive,” “ancient,” “archaic” or “old,” he is describing the languages history in-verse. External is how Tolkien’s languages changed throughout his life. So when Paul Strack describes a language as “early,” “middle,” “late,” “earlier,” and “later,” he is referring to the external development of Tolkien’s Languages. Publication history is self-explanatory in that it’s the order that information about Elvish languages was published to the general public.

Having explained that, my first issue with the term Nandor is that no one in-verse uses it, except for some Noldorin Historians in Aman and knew nothing about what happened to the group after they refused to cross Hithaeglir, and they could only remember that the leader was named Lenwë (WJ). This is like Washington Irving’s “A History of the Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus,” where Irving uses sources to write an adventure story framed as a historical biography and now Columbus “discovered North America.” And that’s not even my biggest issue with the word Nandor.

My biggest issue with using Nandor is it’s etymology and internal history. As many people know, the Quenyan word Nandor means, “those who go back.” (SI). This is supposedly referring to how this group refused to cross Hithaeglir. That bits not what I have an issue with… Nandor is derived from the root (n)dan- which describes the reversal of an action or to undo something. The full definition from the War of the Jewels, is “…indicating the reversal of an action, so as to undo or nullify its effect, as in ‘undo, go back (the same way), unsay, give back (the same gift: not another in return).” (n)dan- itself is derived from the primitive form ndando, which means “one who goes back on his word or decision (WJ).” And that last bit is why I hate Nandor. It’s implying that “these are people who will go back on their word, and will flake out at the slightest misfortune.” Words and meanings change, of course, but would a race that has a long memory, loves to give names and plays with language for fun, really not know what they were doing naming their kin that?

Here’s a list of alternative terms;

Danwaith (S.) this was used by the Sindarin lore masters, though sometimes they confused it with Denwaith. This is formed from the words [dan] and [gwaith], which becomes [waith] later in Sindarin. [Gwaith] refers to a group of people and [dan] means “back to,” so the name means “People who go back.” Lenwë (Q.) is the leaders Quenyan name, but his other name is Denweg, hence the confusion. Danwaith, as far as I can tell, is a carryover from when Denweg’s name was Dan, which I’ll get to in a moment (WJ). This term is used to describe those who initially did not cross Hithaeglir.

Dana (Nan.) This is actually from Tolkien’s Middle period (external), and the only Middle period one I’ll go over, so I wouldn’t recommend using it, But I’ll give a quick overview. During this time, the leader of the Dana was named Dan (or Dân) and this is what the Dana called themselves. However, as you might recall, in-verse, (n)dan- come from ndando, so it’s unlikely that they’d refer to themselves as that. It’s other forms are Danas (pl.) and it’s angelized version Danian (LR, WJ, PE). This term is used to describe those who initially did not cross Hithaeglir.

Lindi (Nan.) This is the one I use to refer to the whole of the clan. When the Lindi first came into Beleriand, they called themselves Lindai, which is the old Teleri clan name (Lindâi -> Lindai -> Lindi (Nan) or Lindar (Q.)), but it had become Lindi in their tongue (WJ). Derived from the Sindar or directly from the Lindi, this is also what the Noldorin exiles used. This is derived from the primitive Elvish word lindā meaning “sweet sounding.” The singular is probably Lind (WJ, PE). 

Lindil (S.) After the Sindar recognized the Lindil as kin, they adopted the name Lindi and gave it the form Lindil or Lindedhil (WJ). This is used to describe the Elves who followed Denethor to Beleriand.

Laegel (S.) This term later replaced Lindil among the Sindar. It means “Green-Elf,” which is a familiar term for us all! It’s plural is Laegil and it’s class plural is either Laegrim or Laegel(d)rim (WJ).  This is used to describe the Elves who followed Denethor to Beleriand. Green-Elf is also used to describe them.

Laiquendi (Q.) This is the Quenyan translation of Laegel. It was translated by the Noldor, though it was not used very much (WJ). This is used to describe the Elves who followed Denethor to Beleriand.

Tawarwaith (S.) This term translates to “Forest (tawar) People (gwaith),” and is a term used to describe Silvan Elves. (UT)

Galadrim (Nan.) is a collective plural that means “Tree-People,” and is used to refer to the Elves of Lórien. The Sindarin equivalent is Galadhrim

Silvan (Eng.) Alt. Sylvan. This is used to describe Elves who never made it to Beleriand, but may have stayed in the Vale of Anduin or settled elsewhere. Other non-Elvish words to call these Elves include, Wood-Elves, Woodland Elves and East-Elves.

(ETA: and 100% agreed Nandor is a rude name! The Noldor have a habit of that - there are some incredible moments of Noldor bias against the Elves who never went to Valinor scattered through HoME, Quendi and Eldar especially. The bit where upon first seeing Orcs the Noldor thought they were Avari will always stick with me.)

That said…

We’re already a fandom that can be very hard to get started in. The Silmarillion alone won’t do it, there are bits of HoME floating around that people in fandom are often just expected to know (just off the top of my head: Quenya names, Findis and Lalwen, Gil-galad Orodrethion). And the Nandor are not the only race called by a term in the Silmarillion that you discover in HoME they themselves did not use.

Which is to say that I, personally, will be sticking with “Nandor” for meta and general discussion (or “Laiquendi” for the Nandor specifically of Ossiriand, which I think is also fairly known), because if I were to consistently apply this criterion I would have to talk about the Lindar and Minyar heading to Beleriand to come to the aid of, among others, the Eluwaith[1], Eglain[2] and Danas, and potentially Kindi/Kinn-lai/Windan/Hwenti/Cuind[3] as well, and at that point I have successfully made what I am trying to communicate completely opaque to anyone who isn’t well-versed in Quendi and Eldar. I know I can’t exactly pat myself on the back as far as newcomer-friendliness is concerned (*glances at fic using Valarin names*), but all the same this is a step too far for me.

[1] did the people of Doriath call themselves Iathrim - “Folk of the Girdle”? They surely weren’t calling themselves that - or Doriath Doriath for that matter - before the Girdle went up, for one.

[2] similarly it’s not clear the Falathrim called themselves Falathrim, but we know they used “Eglain” (a narrowing in meaning from all the Sindar). fun side note: under this model I am not talking about the Sindar as a whole because you can’t.

I made a handy chart for the Nelyar clan! There’s a lot of names for groups (as you can tell in my Names for Nandor post) and a lot of subsequent confusion, so here’s a simplified chart :)

[Image description:

Title, in all caps is “Nelyar” and the sub-title is “(eventually became Lindar (Q.) and Lindai (T.))”

There is a big blue circle encompassing all the groups, to show that they’re all considered “Nelyar, Lindar, or Lindai.” In the blue circle are two polygons, “Avari” and “Teleri.” “Avari” is a small purple circle that says, “Refused the Great Journey. 28 remained.” “Teleri” is a large pink polygon with multiple groups in it. below “Teleri” is “Began the Great Journey. 46 left.”

Within the pink polygon is another polygon labeled “Lindi,” which says, “Did not cross Hithaeglir.” There are two smaller polygons in the Lindi polygon. “Silvan” is light-mint green with no additonal text. “Green-Elves” is in a dark forest green with, “Arrived in Beleriand” written below it. Inside the Green-Elves polygon is a polygon labeled “Guest-Elves,” who are described as “merged with the Sindar.”

Back within the pink polygon labeled “Teleri,” there is a dark purple polygon labeled, “crossed Hithaeglir.” Within this polygon are two more polygons. “Falmari” and “Sindar.” Written in the “Falmari” circle is “Made it to Aman. 20 made it.” In the “Sindar” polygon, there are three final polygons. The first is a turquoise polygon labeled, “Iathrim” and written below it is “Settled in Doriath.” The next one is a blue one labeled “Falathrim” and has “Settled along Beleriands coast” written below it. The final polygon is blue-grey and is labeled “Mithrim.” Written below it is “Settled in the North of Beleriand (Lake Mithrim).”

along the bottom of the image is “@bluedancingkittykat” and their logo

end image description]

if the image and image description didn’t help, I put a text description below the cut, with additional information.