#blues comments

Before I go off, let me say a few things. The first is thank fuck for Paul Strack, you magnificent mad lad. The second it that there are three different timelines to know about when talking about the eymologies of Elvish. They are internal, external and publication history. Internal History is the history of Tolkien’s languages in-verse. So when Paul Strack (and I will be following his example) says “primitive,” “ancient,” “archaic” or “old,” he is describing the languages history in-verse. External is how Tolkien’s languages changed throughout his life. So when Paul Strack describes a language as “early,” “middle,” “late,” “earlier,” and “later,” he is referring to the external development of Tolkien’s Languages. Publication history is self-explanitory in that it’s the order that information about Elvish languages was published to the general public. 

“Why did you explain all this to us?” you may ask. I’ll tell you. It’s because I hate using the term Nandor. 

FIRSTLY, no one in-verse used that except some crusty old Noldorin Historians in Aman and knew *nothing* about what happened to them after they refused to cross Hithaeglir, and they could only remember that the leader was named Lenwë, so like??? (WJ) This is like Washington Irving’s “A History of the Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus,” where some guy uses sources to write an adventure story framed as a historical biography and *somehow* the guy get’s popular. And *that’s* not even my biggest issue with the word Nandor

My BIGGEST issue with using Nandor is it’s etymology. As many people know, the Quenyan word Nandor means, “those who go back.” (SI) This is supposedly referring to how this group refused to go beyond the Hithaeglir. What many people do not know is the in-verse history of the name or that there even is an in-verse evolution of language. Nandor is derived from the root (n)dan- which describes the reversal of an action or to undo something. The full definition from the War of the Jewels, is “...indicating the reversal of an action, so as to undo or nullify its effect, as in ‘undo, go back (the same way), unsay, give back (the same gift: not another in return).” Tolkien also gives this all a primitive form ndando, which means “one who goes back on his word or decision.” So. That’s why I don’t like it. It says about a whole ass group of people that “These are people who go back on their word, these are flakes, you can’t trust them.”

….

“What other terms can I call them by then?” Literally anything else, I don’t care. Here is a list and short description of each term.

Danwaith (S.) this was used by the Sindarin lore masters, though sometimes they confused it with Denwaith. This is formed from the words [dan] and [gwaith], which becomes [waith] later in Sindarin. [Gwaith] refers to a group of people and [dan] means “back to,” so the name means “People who go back.” Lenwë (N.) is the leaders Quenyan name, but his other name is Denweg, hence the confusion. Danwaith, as far as I can tell, is a carryover from when Denweg’s name was Dan, which I’ll get to in a moment. (WJ)

Dana (Nan.) This is actually from Tolkien’s Middle period (external), and the only Middle period one I’ll go over, so I wouldn’t recommend using it, But I’ll give a quick overview. During this time, the leader of the Dana was named Dan (or Dân) and this is what the Dana called themselves. However, as you might recall, in-verse, (n)dan- come from ndando, so it’s unlikely that they’d refer to themselves as that. It’s other forms are Danas (pl.) and it’s angelized version Danian. (LR, WJ, PE)

Lindi (Nan.) This is the one I use. When the Lindi first came into Beleriand, they called themselves Lindai, which is the old Teleri clan name (Lindâi -> Lindai -> Lindi (Nan) or Lindar (Q.)), but it had become Lindi in their tongue (WJ). Derived from the Sindar or directly from the Lindi, this is also what the Noldorin exiles used. This is derived from the primitive Elvish word lindā meaning “sweet sounding.” The singular is probably Lind. (WJ, PE)

Lindil (S.) After the Sindar recognized the Lindil as kin, they adopted the name Lindi and gave it the form Lindil or Lindedhil (WJ).

Laegel (S.) This term later replaced Lindil among the Sindar. It means “Green-Elf,” which is a familiar term for us all! It’s plural is Laegil and it’s class plural is either Laegrim or Laegel(d)rim. (WJ)

Laiquendi (Q.) This is the Quenyan translation of Laegel. It was translated by the Noldor, though it was not used very much (WJ).

Tawarwaith (S.) This term translates to “Forest (tawar) People (gwaith).” (UT)

Galadrim (Nan.) is a collective plural that means “Tree-People.” The Sindarin equivalent is Galadhrim

The Passage in question:

“There came a night of autumn, and when it grew late, one came and smote upon the doors of Menegroth, demanding admittance to the King. He was a lord of the Green-Elves hastening from Ossiriand, and the door-wards brought him to where Dior sat alone in his chamber; and there in silence he gave to the King a coffer, and took his leave.” The Silmarillion, Of the Ruin of Doriath.

Relationship with the Sons of Fëanor

“But the victory of the Elves was Dear-bought. For those of Ossiriand were light-armed, and no match for the Orcs, who were shod with iron and iron-shielded and bore great spears with broad blades; and Denethor was cut off and surrounded upon the hill of Amon Ereb. There he fell and all his nearest kin about him, before the host of Thingol could come to his aid.  Bitterly though his fall was avenged, when Thingol came upon the rear of the Orcs and slew them in heaps, his people lamented him ever after and took no king again. After the battle some returned to Ossiriand, and their tidings filled the remnant of their people with great fear [if I had a dollar for everytime the writings implied Green-Elves were cowards, I’d have about $6 because there’s so little written about them], so that thereafter they came never forth in open war, but kept to themselves by wariness and secrecy; and they were called Laiquendi, the Green-elves, because of their raiment of the color of leaves. But many went North and entered the guarded realm of Thingol and were merged with his people.1”

“...And the Orcs took the fortress upon the west slopes of Mount Rerir, and ravaged all of Thargelion, the land of Caranthir; and they defiled Lake Helevorn. Thence they passed over Gelion with fire and terror and came into East Beleriand. Maglor joined Maedhros upon Himring; but Caranthir fled and joined the remnant of his people to the scattered folk of the hunters, Amrod and Amras, and they retreated and passed Ramdal in the south [see!! Literally right here, in my previous post I bitched about this--no one else is written like that!!]. Upon Amon Ereb they maintained a watch and some strength of war, and they had the aid of the Green-Elves; and the Orcs came not into Ossiriand, nor to Taur-im-Duinath and the wilds of the south.2”

“...and the sons of Fëanor wandered before the wind. Their arms were scattered, and their league broken; and they took to a wild life and woodland life beneath the feet of Ered Lindon, mingling with the Green-Elves of Ossiriand…3”

“The Nelyar [Teleri] were most reluctant to leave their lakeside homes; but they were very cohesive, and very conscious of the separate unity of their Clan (as they continued to be), so that when it became clear that their chieftains Elwe and Olwe were resolved to depart and would have a large following, many of those among them who had at first joined the Avari went over to the Eldar rather than be separated from their kin. The Ñoldor indeed asserted that most of the ‘Teleri’ were at heart Avari, and that only the Eglain*** really regretted being left in Beleriand.” After writing about the Tatyar (Noldor who remained in Middle-Earth) and their bitterness towards the Noldor, Christopher Tolkien writes, “This ill-feeling descended in part from the bitterness of the Debate before the March of the Eldar began, and was no doubt later increased by the mechanisms of Morgoth; but it also throws some light upon the temperment of the Ñoldor in general, and Fëanor in particular, Indeed the Teleri on their side asserted that most of the Ñoldor in Aman itself were in heart Avari, and returned to Middle-Earth when they discovered their mistake; they needed room to quarrel in.11**”

Amon Ereb is where the Green-Elves buried their king and lamented him ever after. During Dagor Bragollach, Ambarussa and Caranthir flee to Amon Ereb, where they “maintained a watch and some strength of war.” There’s two ways this can be: We can ignore the line “had the aid of the Green-Elves;” Since the Quenta Silmarillion was written in universe and has been revised in universe, you can say that that’s not an accurate retelling. You could instead say that since there is a War going on, the Feanorians just built there and the Green-Elves feared the  retaliation of Murderers. Following that, even if this were not the case and the Green-Elves were understanding, there is bound to be some dissent or some begrudging feelings for building a fortress on their beloved kings grave. The other option is to accept the line and say that the Green-Elves allowed them to build there. This would imply that they have a phenomenally good relationship with the Sons of Fëanor (or at least 4, 6 & 7) to allow them to build on Denethor's grave. Though I do not think the first option is liable since the Green-Elves attended the Feast of Reuniting, when Thingol only sent two Elves in his stead. In addition to this, The Sons mingled with the Green-Elves after the Fifth Battle, which if canon is to be believed and that “a stranger might pass through their land from end to end and see none of them4,” If the Green-Elves didn’t want to mingle, they wouldn’t have. The next mention of their location (in the published Silmarillion) is after the Elf Lord brought the Silmaril to Doriath, when they were “gathered again from their wandering,” so while it’s not explicit that both the Sons of Fëanor and the Silmaril were both within the borders of Ossiriand at the same time, it is implied [👀]. Though it seems that there is some bitterness between the Teleri and Noldor [I wonder how different their familial structures are--the Teleri stick together and that’s extremely important to them. There also seem to be excpetions to this since the Teleri are on both sides of the sea… and I’m not saying that family isn’t important to the Noldor (look at Finwë’s family), but when given the choice, a large majortiy left their families behind or left them to cross the Ice]. Though the Lindi* are a subsection of the Teleri, they are (along with the Avari), often an afterthought in writings [I’m not kidding--WJ/374 “...when the [Elves of Aman] spoke of the Eldalie, “the Elven-Folk,” he meant vaguely all the races of Elves, though [they] were probably not thinking of the Avari.”], so I am unsure if the second quote could apply to the Green-Elves or if C. Tolkien was specifically referring to the Tatyar. Regardless though, it seems to me that the Noldor and Teleri have something in common--they’re both Avari at heart and love Middle-Earth. [what’s so great about Aman anyway :/ clearly not much, if the majority of elves wanted to stay/ returned and only left for Aman when the Elves were *dying*]. Though the Second Kinslaying takes place after the events asked about, I’m going to touch on it briefly as well. Specifically, how “...[the Teleri] were very cohesive, and very conscious of the separate unity of their Clan (as they continued to be), so that when it became clear that their chieftains Elwe and Olwe were resolved to depart and would have a large following, many of those among them who had at first joined the Avari went over to the Eldar rather than be separated from their kin.” Teleri don’t like to be seperate from their families and don’t do so lightly; this, to me, implies a high emphasis on family compared to the other clans. The Sons of Feänor, who they gave safe harbor to and allowed to build on their kings grave, really spit in Green-Elves of Ossiriand’s face when they killed their close kin in Doriath. [Big Yikes]

Relationship with the Sindar

“But the victory of the Elves was Dear-bought. For those of Ossiriand were light-armed, and no match for the Orcs, who were shod with iron and iron-shielded and bore great spears with broad blades; and Denethor was cut off and surrounded upon the hill of Amon Ereb. There he fell and all his nearest kin about him, before the host of Thingol could come to his aid. Bitterly though his fall was avenged, when Thingol came upon the rear of the Orcs and slew them in heaps, his people lamented him ever after and took no king again. After the battle some returned to Ossiriand, and their tidings filled the remnant of their people with great fear, so that thereafter they came never forth in open war, but kept to themselves by wariness and secrecy; and they were called Laiquendi, the Green-elves, because of their raiment of the color of leaves. But many went North and entered the guarded realm of Thingol and were merged with his people.1”

“...Of those Nandor who took refuge in Doriath after the fall of Denethor is it said; ‘In the event they did not mingle happily with the Teleri of Doriath, and so dwelt mostly in the small land Eglamar, Arthórien under their own chief. Some of them were “darkhearted,” though this did not necessarily appear, except under strain or provocation.’ [this is called “being normal.” We all have a dark side that appears under strain of provocation. Maybe they’re noted as such because everyone keeps being a dick] ‘The chief of the “Guest-elves,” as they were called, was given a permanent place in Thingol’s council…7”

I’m going to paraphrase this next bit by a lot, since it’s a couple pages worth of material11…

Celben: the Sindarin equivalent of Kalaquendi; all Elves other than the Avari and includes the Sindar. It is also equivalent to Eldar (Q.) and Elloi (T.)

Morben: Originally only referred to the Avari, but as other Children became known, it came to mean “Anyone dwelling outside Beleriand, or entering their realm from the outside.” “The first people of this kind to be met were the Nandor...when the Nandor were recognized as kinsfolk of Lindarin origin and speech, they were received into the class of Celbin.” However, later in Note 9 which discusses Eöl and Maeglin, “Some of the Nandor, who were allowed to be Celbin, [*allowed??* wtf is this? Is this a VIP club??] were not any better,” is written and the Note goes on to discuss Saeros.

“Now word went swiftly among the Elves of Ossiriand that a great host of dwarves bearing gear of war had down out of the mountains and passed over Gelion at the Ford of Stones. These tidings came soon to Beren and Lúthien; and in that time also a messenger came to them out of Doriath telling of what had befallen there. Then Beren arose and left Tol Galen, and summoning to him Dior his son they went north the river Ascar; and with them went many of the Green-Elves of Ossiriand...In that battle by Sarn Athrad Beren fought his last fight, and himself slew the Lord of Nogrod, and wrested from him the Necklace of the Dwarves; but he dying laid his curse upon all the treasure. Then Beren gazed in wonder on the selfsame jewel Fëanor that he has cut from Morgoths iron crown, now shining set amid gold and gems by the cunning of the dwarves; and he washed it clean of blood in the waters of the river. And when all was finished the treasure of Doriath was drowned in the river Ascar, and from that time the river was named anew, Rathlóriel, the Golden Bed…5”

The Green-Elves and the Sindar are both a part of the Olwë’s Host that split off in Middle-Earth, albeit at different times. The Green-Elves had the “Friendship of Thingol,6” and “were welcomed by Thingol as kin long lost that return, and they dwelt in Ossiriand, the Land of Seven Rivers.1” Tolkien writes that his fall was “bitterly avenged,” so Thingol probably held Denethor himself in high regard. Some even merged with his people in Doriath. However, there is more to this story. “In the event,” is not an often encountered phrase but “In the event that” is, so myself and others were confused at this wording. As it turns out, the phrase means that after discussing what could’ve been, you’re now discussing what actually happened. “In the end,” “as it happened,” and “as it turned out,” are synonymous with “in the event.8” So this means that the majority of the Green-Elves who migrated to Thingol’s kingdom were unhappy within his kingdom, [and they likely wouldn’t’ve been able to leave...and where would they’ve gone? To the Noldor who Thingol hated and wouldn’t allow them to leave to join or their kin in Ossiriand who hold family in such high regard?] and though they had a permanent seat on his council, they were also called “Guest-Elves,” which likely alienated them more. I also want to discuss the classes of Calben and Morben; At first it does seem to follow the published Silmarillion--that all of the Green-Elves were welcomed as kin and subsequently, entered into the class of Celben. I don’t think that is the case anymore; I think instead, the ones who merged with Doriath were “allowed” to become Celben and those who returned to Ossiriand remained Morben [This really is a VIP club]. It could be, of course, that Green-Elves of Ossiriand are the only ones of the Lindi to hold the title of Celben--the rest of the Lindi throughout Middle-Earth are Morben. Moving on though, the Guest-Elves probably seldom left Doriath and weren’t in much contact with their kin in Ossiriand, so it’s difficult for me to say how this impacted Ossiriand Green-Elve’s and Sindar’s relationship; it seems that there was a very dichotomous relationship between them. [read: I just think the Sindar are a fickle bunch] But! Either way, the Green-Elves in and out of Doriath are kin and while that may have caused some tension--Teleri don’t like to be separated from their family and don’t do so lightly--they are still *kin* and would not take too kindly to their families being slaughtered over a jewel. I think that the Sack of Doriath would be enough “strain or provocation” to bring about their “dark heartedness.” [tbh, I don’t think any Elf would, but other than people being dicks, they gotta get their “dark hearted” reputation from somewhere lol]

Curses, Dooms and Prophecies in the Legendarium

“Now word went swiftly among the Elves of Ossiriand that a great host of dwarves bearing gear of war had down out of the mountains and passed over Gelion at the Ford of Stones. These tidings came soon to Beren and Lúthien; and in that time also a messenger came to them out of Doriath telling of what had befallen there. Then Beren arose and left Tol Galen, and summoning to him Dior his son they went north the river Ascar; and with them went many of the Green-Elves of Ossiriand...In that battle by Sarn Athrad Beren fought his last fight, and himself slew the Lord of Nogrod, and wrested from him the Necklace of the Dwarves; but he dying laid his curse upon all the treasure. Then Beren gazed in wonder on the selfsame jewel Fëanor that he has cut from Morgoths iron crown, now shining set amid gold and gems by the cunning of the dwarves; and he washed it clean of blood in the waters of the river. And when all was finished the treasure of Doriath was drowned in the river Ascar, and from that time the river was named anew, Rathlóriel, the Golden Bed…5” [The Elven forces didn’t take many casualties, but would’t they want wergild? Also, other then Beren being Tolkien’s SI or revenge, why would the Green-Elves want to fight? They seldom engage in open war, and don’t like strangers so??? Is this apart of their alliance with Doriath if they had one? Did they hate Dwarves that much? Did they want gold? What the fuck is up???]

I will not write out every curse, doom or prophecy. I am only going to list them. [there are so many, I didn’t even list them all…] The point of me listing all of these out is to show just how much power these types of things have in the Tolkien Legendarium and even if they are a self-fulfilling prophecy, they tend to come true in some way.

The Doom of Mandos

Mîm cursing Nargothronds treasure and the Nauglamir(in some variations)

The Dead Men of Dunharrow

The Curse of Morgoth; "the shadow of my thought shall lie upon them wherever they go." And the events after Húrins release

Eöl’s curse “...Here you may yet die the same death as I.”

Beleg to Túrin; “If I stayed beside you, love would lead me, not wisdom.”

Melian to Túrin; “There is malice in this sword. The dark heart of the smith still dwells in it. It will not love the hand it serves; neither will it abide with you long.”

Glaurung to Túrin; “...but thou carest not for that Glad may thy father be to learn that he hath such a son; as learn he shall”

Melian to Thingol; “For you have either doomed your daughter, or yourself. And now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm.”

Huans Fate

The Lord of Nargothrond cursing the treasures of Doriath and the Nauglamir

There is more, but I think you get the point.

I want to touch on how the River Ascar flows into the River Gelion and “...after Sirion Ulmo loved Gelion above all the waters of the western world.4” In addition to this, the Green-Elves of Ossiriand rely on their rivers, not only for the nourishment water provides but they also “lived in the protection of their rivers,7” meaning that they also relied on the rivers for protection. I also want to point out that Ascar is the most upstream river of Ossiriand. “Why does this matter,” you ask “What does this have to do with curses?” Well…. The meaning of Ascar is “rushing or imperious (moving forcefully or rapidly).10” In addition to the river's name signifying its nature,  it’s also written that “...[the rivers] fell steeply and very swift from the Mountains of Ered Lindon.9” So there is no way that cursed gold is staying put. If the Green-Elves [and Ulmo] were upset at having cursed gold in their river, that they rely on for protection, imagine how upset they’d be if there was cursed gold in the Galion, that borders all of their land.

Personally, I think that if it were any other Elf-Lord, we would have had a different story. The Silmarillion has a tragic thing going on where, if a tragedy is prevented, another one would take its place. Here, if it was any other Elf who was in possession of the Silmaril, the Second Kinslaying may have been prevented, but the Silmaril wouldn’t go to Valinor.

The Sindar and Green-Elves seem to have a dichotomous relationship, where the Sindar seem to accept them as kin, but also refer to them as outsiders. The Noldor (specifically the Sons of Fëanor) and the Green-Elves seem to have a better relationship, but there is some old bitterness between the Noldor and Teleri and any good relationship would’ve been destroyed following the Second Kinslaying. But to answer your question, what was going through that Elf Lords head? I think it was something along the lines of "Ah! Cursed Jewelry that has poisoned our river and has been the cause of many deaths, better get this out of here before the Sons of Fëanor or my fellow Green-Elves who like them more than Doriath find me!"

   References

1The Silmarillion, Of the Sindar

2 The Silmarillion, Of the Ruin of Beleriand

3The Silmarillion, Of the Fifth Battle

4The Silmarillion, Of Belerinad and its Realms

5The Silmarillion, Of the Ruin of Doriath

6HoME X, The Annals of Aman

7HoME XI, The Grey Annals

8https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/in-the-event

9HoME XII, The Shibboleth of Fëanor

10https://www.elfdict.com/w/ascar

11HoME XI, Quendi and Eldar pg 376-77, 381, 409

*I don’t like the term Nandor and I refuse to use it unless I have to. It’s derived from the primitive elvish word “ndandō” which means, “one who goes back on his word or decision.” “Primitive elvish” is used by Paul Strack to describe the internal (fictional) evolution of elvish. “Lindi” is what the Green-Elves called themselves. [it seems like there’s at least 4 different ways to refer to them and I liked Lindi the best. One day I’ll finish my “Please call them anything else than Nandor” post.]

**I am aware that the quote continues to contrast this with the relations between Sindar, Green-Elves and other Avari elves, but this talks about the second age so I chose to not include it.