#tw aba

And I feel like most people I see on DS9 lean very heavily to just hating on Mora and seeing him as an abuser and seeing all of Odo's uncertainity and guilt as like stockholm syndrome or just the writers being cowards and feeling the need to have the character respect and forgive the parental figure

And I feel like this, however justified, does kind of flatten what is going on in Odo's mind a little bit

The way Odo was "raised" bears a strong resemblance to ABA "therapy" and other ways children are taught (or more suitably, threatened into or forced) to display the "correct" behaviours. Pol's method are rooted in behaviourism - when Odo shifts for the first time, it's to stop the applied painful stimulus.

This sort of abuse is most commonly associated with ABA abuse, but behaviourism is generally the foundation of most of traditional school systems. The correct behaviour is rewarded, and the incorrect one is punished. In the more liberal systems this could be done with verbal praise and degradation, sticker charts, symbolic shame punishments (standing in corners), and in the more violent ones bodily harm is used or threatened. The child is esentially trained like a dog.

I genuinely don't think DS9 writers had these views or the level of awareness (granted, I know nothing about historical views on autism in usa) but Odo genuinely works like a great autism & ABA survivor allegory. He was forced (with the threat of violence - the electric shock) to construct a facade of "humanity" (or in this case, bajoranity?) and display a full range of "human"/"bajoran" behaviours - which were to him not natural or needed. His mask is literal, because he literally shapeshifts into a face.

The thing is that it's also mastering the display of the mask is what leads him into his emancipation. Becase Odo is capable of appearing as humanoid and integrating into humanoid society, he can pursuade his "carers" to give him freedom. His freedom and dignity are dependent on the fact he could shift into a suitable form and advocate for himself.

And I think that's why Odo is not certain about Mora Pol's methods, and why when he attempts to raise the baby Changeling non-violently he is plagued with self-doubt. It's because all he has - his job he likes, his friends, his freedom - he has "because" of what was done to him.

Now, we, the audience, know that's not true. We have good grounds to theorize that Odo, raised in a loving and nurturing way, could also learn how to shapeshift, even if his development wasn't as fast as Mora would have liked, if it was "delayed" or "incorrect". But Odo will never meet the untraumatized version of himself.

And this is why I have seen many survivors of ABA or other behaviouristic pedagogic methods defend what was done to them or be unable to determine if it was good or bad, despite admitting the pain it has caused them - because the trauma forced them to display behaviours on which their acceptance into society was dependent. And they want that acceptance. Masking is tiring and it sucks that it's a necessity - but it is a useful skill to have (even though in a better society it wouldn't be).

The conversation Odo has with Mora Pol when Mora is unpleased with the changeling's not fast enough progress is reflection of many I heard in education. If the child is "behind", if "they're not meeting developmental stages", should force be applied? Should the parents and teachers be "stricter"? The educator who wants normalization says yes, they need to develop skills. The other educator (Odo) says: no, there is no need to rush them. We need to show them the joy of reading books/math/sports/shapeshifting, because doing these things can be very fun and rewarding. It's not a race. And the first educator responds: but they're behind!

And like. If you've been raised in Mora Pol's way (regarding whether it was the conventional school system or outright abuse like ABA) and have gained the skills expected of you, then it can be very hard to assert yourself. Because you don't know if you would be better off without it.

You have the urge to say "If you didn't throw me in the water when I was afraid, I would have learned to swim anyway". But the little voice in your head (the one that sounds like your stepfather/1st grade teacher/swim instructor/bajoran scientist) says "but would you? You were taking forever standing on the edge. You would have never gotten in!". And you can't argue with this, because the little child who wasn't pushed in - they don't exist, they never got to.

And Odo can't meet the Odo who was shown the joy of shapeshifting instead.

And like, idk this conflict resonates with me a lot. Maybe because I am also a former child. Maybe bc I am in education and this is a debate I both witness and take part in often.

Is it worth it to apply pressure to a child to force them to develop life skills? Obviously it is pointless and cruel to force children to conform to arbitrary norms, such as making eye contact or hugging. But what about building independence? Are skills worth it if a child has to suffer? Is happiness more important than independence, and is happiness without independence possible - not just in theory, but in real situations that unindependent individuals end up in? Et cetera, at cetera. Obviously in most situations the answers are clear, but occassionally they aren't. And every time I tell a child to stop talking when others are, or do this, or walk that way, or whatever, I always think - what is the boundary where "installing valuable skills" ends and "forcing the child into a human mask" starts? I do think there is a value in living in a society and learning skills that help us all get along better, like communicating or not chewing with your mouth open. But how much "out of comfort zone" is needed for it to become the "pain, discomfort and fear" zone?

Yeah I don't fucking know 👍And neither does Odo. And damn do I relate to him a Lot because I also have a humanoid form I shift into and boy! It Is Slipping!

It was ABA-ist. In the early 2010s, behavioral therapy wasn’t like what it is now. It wasn’t just simple behavioral therapy, and a lot of their techniques were from ABA. It wasn’t the worst, but it wasn’t the best. My day consumed of being told on what and what not to do. What behaviors were appropriate and not appropriate. From trying to hide my stims, to trying to drill into my head that my behaviors weren’t “normal” and therefore had to be fixed. It severely affected my mental health. It severely affected my self confidence, how I think about myself, how I felt, how society felt about me. I’d get rewarded for good behavior, and punished for “bad” behavior. My meltdowns were seen as bad. No matter if they were a form of communication or not. My eloping was seen as bad. No matter what. My anger was seen as bad. No matter if it was a form of communication. My stimming was seen as bad. No matter if it was a form of self soothing.

It severely affects me to this day. And although I don’t blame my behavioral therapist, I realize what they did wasn’t the best for me. I even had a good relationship with my behavioral therapist. She’d come to birthday parties and give me gifts. But that doesn’t take away what it has done to me to this day.

I’m losing my mind trying to find anyone else who relates, but did anyone else have a weird conversation stoplight that was part of the therapy? From what I remember,

Red - a topic you and only you are interested in

Yellow - a topic you and the other person are interested in

Green - a topic that only the other person is interested in

One thing that i dislike seeing on social media from actually autistic community is the idea slash myth that ALL (Keyword ALL) ABA Therapy is bad, harmful, useless and aimed at making autistic people "neurotypical".

Especially if those who claim that ABA Therapy is bad are those who have never personally experienced it yet regurgitate the very real lived experiences of those who actually have gone to ABA Therapy. Because they personally cannot understand how it works if they have not actually experienced it. I'm not trying to gatekeep or be nasty to anyone by saying this, but i don't trust those people who regurgitate the negatives and or the positives of effects of ABA without actually going through the process of it.

Like if a family member or a friend of mine say that they agree with my opinion, this one that i will express in this post. I would not be feeling secure and confident with their support, since they haven't been through it themselves so i don't really understand how they can understand how ABA Therapy works. I mean, i am a client and not a therapist myself so i don't get the intricacies of it, but i can understand that it is helping me with known concerns such as poor regulation skills and lack of independence as an autistic adult, even if it is by a little bit still. But i do think that lived experience like this should be more trustworthy than people who copy what others have said regarding it without actually going through with that process themselves, if that makes sense.

While i understand and respect those with lived experiences sharing that their ABA Therapy was indeed all of that, bad harmful useless and negative for them as an autistic person, that isn't necessarily the same for me and for perhaps other ABA Therapy goers. Me personally, i have experienced only positive experiences and results after going such as an improvement in self regulation skills, life skills and so on. But the nuance is that my experience is not the end all be all experience and so called "consensus" within the large and wider autism online space, especially even on here since there is representation of people with higher support needs whose voices should be listened to. The same could be said for people who declare that ABA Therapy is harmful, etc for autistic people.

And even within my own experiences with various ABA Therapy centers, the story and the effects it has on me changes between the years and the centers that i have been going to as a child and as an adult autistic now. Which should also be considered. This also supports my point of ABA Therapy itself being nuanced and not just black and white, as each company or center that does ABA has many different views, perspectives, programs and ways going about things such as a client's challenging behaviours. Some may be less neuro affirming while others are neuro affirming, and that can be to a degree of how less or more a center is neuro affirming to clients and parents. This kind of nuance, for example, should be considered amongst other nuances and changes in how things are done.

With that said, my personal opinion on ABA Therapy is that, when done right or with no harm or both really, can be helpful. It was really helpful for me as a child even though they did use "planned ignoring" which, in my personal opinion again, really did more harm than help me with challenging behaviours. As most of what i behaved like as a child was mostly for communication purposes, not for attention seeking which was what the IBI center i was with at the time thought was the reason behind my behaviours. Because, i had learnt to read clocks, although i am not the best at that and still prefer digital over analog clocks, and learnt some signs around the community. I don't remember a lot from that time as i was a child, a very young one then, but i do remember that it was the thing that allowed me to returm to my home school district and eventually return to mainstream class, and that is what i consider is important when i talk about controversial topics.

The same could be said for when i went to ABA Therapy again as an teenager to an adult nowadays. However, there is nuance in that the first center that we tried was seemingly doing terribly when it comes to their financial situation. By that i meant that it did not seem as organized and as well funded by their clients and their children's paying for the therapy (The company advertised ABA Therapy for only people under 18 which means minors, children, teens. Same with the next center that i went to.). When i went, there was literally no way for me to practice cooking and other life skills because there was no equipment that could facilitate any of that, so instead of life skills programs, we did social skills, and reading comprehension (I think?) programs. And that was it, only one hour per week for stuff that i felt and still feel did not do much to help me improve on my self regulation skills at all.

However, the next center that i went to for ABA Therapy was better in that it had more equipment and was more equipped to take on someone with my kind of needs. That meant i could do my life skills, and learn how to cook small meals such as noodles and cookies if i was hungry enough to be interested. I went for about 2 hours two days a week, and it was more helpful than the last center was. More interesting too, in my personal opinion and from what i've observed walking around the center during the breaks in between tasks and my programs. This one i consider to be the best and should be a sort of a role model for other ABA centers slash companies, but obviously this is just my honest and personal opinion that i know lacks nuance so i do not expect anyone to take this endorsement, so to speak, as seriously as they learn from other takes from other creators talking about their lived experiences with ABA.

Thoughts on ABA therapy? Especially personal experiences I'd like to hear if anyone's comfortable

I don't actually know much about it... all I know is I went to an ABA therapy for several years and it was "fine" except for the fact I can barely remember anything from that time but I DO know (...not really remember) I would beg not to go every single day. And I also know a lot of people say it's bad. So uh

Mom says most are bad which is why it gets all the hate but not all are bad and that's why mine was "fine" But... eeeuueh idk about that anymore!! ;w;

Anyway. Yeah just asking for thoughts/experiences and stuff with ABA therapy because of uhhh the little I can remember about it

is ABA something other than operant conditioning in other places? if not, shouldn't we be listening to the ABA survivors who call ABA abusive and dehumanizing? if something is abusive to some but happened to help others, isn't it irresponsible to say that ABA is good for anyone just because it helps some people and has hurt others, like the psychiatric system?

asking because i want to understand what nuance there is, because the only people i know who have had to endure ABA therapy in their life have survived really horrific, dehumanizing abuse like being treated as a dog by their ABA therapists. is there nuance to this?

hornet nest. don’t really love talk about ABA but will answer this one. so

1) when talk about ABA, from western perspective. ABA here (<certain non-western country) even worse lol (would say newly introduced compare to say US… plus there not much of neurodivergent acceptance movement here & eugenics rampant people on social media proudly say classic eugenics stuff n admit eugenics good. like admit eugenics by exact word.)

2) important correction that never said ABA good for anyone everyone. never said ABA not abusive never abusive. because ABA often is abusive. would say such vast majority abusive. some more subtle and or not all encompassing in practice than others but vast vast majority use harmful ideology or methods in some way (90%? higher?not scientific number by any mean, throwing it out there based on observation, more illustrate point of how high than Actual Accurate Number). if any time you (general you) got from my post about ABA think am arguing ABA never abusive then you definitely understand something wrong, or am didn’t communicate right. despite what may seem like on this blog, anytime hear “ABA” alarm bell go off. anytime see “am ABA therapist” immediate distrust & avoid & rarely earn back.

with that out of way:

fortunately with neurodivergent activists & ABA survivors advocating, n neurodiversity affirming become more of a “good thing to describe self as”, some ABA clinics trying/say they trying change. try more natural learning, try more strength based techniques, less drills, less DTT, less force eye contact, less force mask, less punishment but more reward, less food motivators, less planned withholding… we at very very beginning of this

unfortunately “neurodiversity affirming” becoming buzzword. can slap it on anything. include “at first glance look all good person have fun smiling but if know what look for, harmful practice glaring at you” ABA. people can say they do nonabusive ABA n do harmful practices. n sometimes it people genuinely trying take abusive part out of ABA but not realize some aspects still… harmful. still coercive. still take away autonomy. (ETA n of course there many places where unchanged)

operant conditioning… hard one because. n this maybe out of topic or nit pick. give self shiny gold star sticker for monkey brain (reward) whenever finish task (goal behavior) technically operant conditioning. not abusive. but ABA abusive because… “only look at behavior ignore internal, smile mean happy eye contact mean better milder” operant conditioning. “‘tantrum’ undesirable behavior attention seeking so not reward behavior need extinguish behavior by planned ignore (who care why they meltdown)” operant conditioning. “food rewards you earn eat only when you good, you earn comfort only when you good” operant conditioning. “stop elopement by physically block them from leave n once they learn stop elope they better (actually just replaced physical flight with dissociation freeze)” operant conditioning

& sometimes it not that “ABA not abusive”… but more not believe ABA more abusive than say. police that kill visibly autistic people especially visibly autistic Black people. or more serious than “put your autistic child in therapy or we take them away. n by therapy we mean ABA.” or “am single parent work multiple jobs child keep get sent home mid day bc behaviors which mean interrupt work less pay more likely get fired. struggle pay bills cant afford childcare but insurance cover 40 hour ABA idk what to do.” or “get kicked out of 7th school 937473th SLP OT because behaviors” ETA (forgot to retype when draft got deleted so add back in) this not saying “ABA abuse okay bc other abuse exist.” but more of ABA not exist alone & ABA exist because other things exist & cannot get rid of ABA alone without get rid of system that produce it

know people who went through ABA as child n not feel traumatized n actually found it help (n some of them may be traumatized just not realize it but there people who thought about it a lot & still conclude not traumatized). know people who went thru ABA found it both help n abuse. know ABA survivors who “maybe did help but abused by it don’t want the help if mean abuse.” know ABA survivors who just. abused. of course ABA survivors who abused by it should be prioritized. people who went thru ABA who not traumatized very minority & at least huge bit of luck. n often times also with some mix of privilege (location eg state with better healthcare more up to date healthcare cities at blue states etc, financial, etc.). hence why never say “ABA never abusive.” n why don’t feel comfortable call self ABA “survivor” because. well. not traumatized by it. don’t feel right

all of this (n tbh anything am saying abt ABA) more said towards non ABA survivor audience (specifically those who hear like third hand fourth hand fifteenth hand information n never actually read anything official about ABA & can’t tell you what it does beyond “promote masking” (often true… but how?) & when asked for more, no clue. am firmly believe you need know enemy to criticize & defeat enemy.). it more of way ask them talk about ABA with more nuance n more knowledge. no interest “educating” ABA survivors on what ABA is & how it work. not my place. they not need it.

^ because right now “anti-ABA crowd” turned kind of into joke in some people eyes because some people who say “ABA abusive” keep saying same thing as eachother n can’t tell you what ABA actually is beyond “masking & eye contact.” n also poorly done studies (that ABA PTSD study that anyone can just say they went thru ABA & no verify… there difference between letting survivors exist online without interrogate & demand for proof papers, versus published scientific papers). yes many most ABA abusive harmful yes no doubt ABA survivors gotten PTSD from it etc. but if in role of advocacy, neeeeeed be able talk about it with knowledge & nuance (ETA & good evidence). because most impacted are gonna be ABA survivors & them not be taken seriously (already happening).

would love world where. autistic people with serious behaviors that danger to self or others get help they need. without be kicked out of multiple services. without be abused. be treat as human. be treat compassionately. for help be freely available. n their caregivers have respite. n not need work 9 million jobs just to pay bills n not have time be around child. unfortunately we not there yet. n take long time get there. n people struggling now. so need something for now. need harm reduction. so will try take as much harmful stuff out of ABA as possible while we work on new thing.

very bad TL;DR: are there any nuance? ..yes? but when say that people tend think mean “ABA never abusive.” so also no… not in that way

sorry kind of went off tangent. but no short way talk about ABA nuance

potential context for other people? one two three four

Please, no negative comments about ABA on this post, as it's for a personal research query only. This is not meant to be discourse.

Please reblog if you vote.