#ninagate

and why does project nina feel like a beta version of camazotz? take a look yourself

the show (and brenner) hides how project nina creates these simulations. i believe it's going to be a huge reveal, which will explain all of the timeline/memory/loop manipulations

again, why does it feel like camazotz? let's compare how jane and max wake up in nina/camazotz

both wake up in hawkins lab, both are running through the corridors, opening the doors, both keep returning to the rainbow room — the beginning of the simulation

max told holly that she tried to take door 3 to escape, failed and decided to take door 2.

what if i tell you that jane literally enters the rainbow room through door 3?

after taking door 3 jane proceeds to listen to brenner's instructions and tries to find her own way through the memories. it's getting heated, and owens wants her out of the bath, but it doesn't look like brenner agrees

so again, what if i tell you that they didn't pull her out and what we see next is an illusion?

first of all, go listen to it yourself (s4e5 1h10m), her voice has an echo effect here, THE SAME as in the scene before when she was in nina

brenner walks up to her like he's confident that she won't hurt him, even after she just knocked out a bunch of men. like he's controlling the simulation

the same opera music starts playing, the one that played when jane was in the rainbow room

and then she repeats what she said when she just entered nina. she never left, she never left.

I already thought when El/Jane "died" in season 5, she was "waking up" and getting out of Camazotz.

The entire season, Kali was pushing El/Jane into commiting suicide, and it got me thinking. Why would she do that?

("It makes no goddamn sense!")

Then I thought about the field scene with El/Jane and Kali.

When I saw the post by @youaremess, it made me think; what if Kali is also at the Nina Project? What if El/Jane got 'stuck' in Camazotz and forgot how to get out? This would (kind of) explain why Kali was there in S5- to help El/Jane break out of the illusion.

Other than to push El/Jane to commit suicide, Kali doesn't really have a plot in season 5. She was brought back to be killed. Buttttt, what if (and this is a big if) she was brought in by Owens & Brenner to help El/Jane get out of Camazotz? It would make sense (in my opinion).

Kali:"Have you ever done this before? Shared your mind like this?"

El/Jane:*shakes head* "Have you?"

Kali:"With my other psychic friends all the time."

-> "Other psychic friends" I think is code for Dr Owens and Brenner (the Nina Project)

-> "all the time" - they've been trying for a while

Brenner says El/Jane isn't strong enough to defeat Vecna -> They find Kali to help her -> Kali and Jane find a way to break everyone out of Camazotz.

I think what happened was that the entirety of Hawkins was flayed during season 4 and Owens told El/Jane that the only way she can help them (without becoming flayed herself) was to do it remotely at the Nina Project. She infiltrated Henry's mind through the Nina Project and has been stuck in Camazotz along with the rest of our characters. She's not flayed, but she is in Camazotz. Also this would kind of explain why she seems so 'emotionless' during the whole season; She knows it's not real.

I think Kali coming in this season made El/Jane remember what was really going on and remind her how to get out of Camazotz. By 'dying' in Camazotz, she 'woke up' in the real world.

Slight tangent:

Do you guys remember when Mike and Will found El/Jane in the desert in season 4?

I don't think they actually 'found' her. I think she projected herself to make it seem like she was there. Does that make sense? Kind of like in season 3 with Billy, she shared her mind with him and he could see and feel her but she wasn't actually there. Kind of like that.

I think she's been doing that the entire time and hasn't been in Hawkins since the end of season 3. She's isolated from them because the whole town is flayed. She can't risk being flayed so she's helping them remotely.

I only really think this because when the Cali crew reach Hawkins, El/Jane doesn't really talk to Mike, and we hear Mike say this.

(Will: "Did she talk to you at all?

Mike: "Not much. I mean, a little bit. Doctor Brenner. He says that she wasn't ready and now she's starting to think he was right.")

Says implied he's still alive. That El/Jane is still in the Nina Project and she accidentally let it slip to Mike but he hasn't put the peices together.

EDIT, I JUST REMEMBERED SOMETHING!!!

Remember when there was someone dressed like El/Jane at the start of the season? What if that was Jane and Kali experimenting to see if they could project an image over Jane and make her look like someone else when she infiltrated Camazotz?? So that even if El/Jane "died", she could still help the party?

OR

If they successfully broke people out of Camazotz, they could project an image of them and make it seem like they were still in Camazotz! This could also tie into why Joyce and Hopper are acting strangely- they were in Russia when season 4 was happening, and instead of going to Hawkins, they went to the Nina Project with El/Jane and have been trying to break the others out. El/Jane has been projecting them into Camazotz to help the party!

(Guys please tell me I'm not crazy 😭)

Moving on...

I then started thinking about the speech she gave Mike in the void.

("But I don't! I don't understand!")

("You will.")

Huh???

In general the void scene made no sense (#warflashbacks) but I went back and watched it 😭

If you listen closely, it sounds like El/Jane is speaking in code.

Mike: "You have to get out of there! You have to get out!"

El/Jane: "None of this will ever end, not if I'm still here."

-> Camazotz will never be destroyed if I'm still here. Vecna will still try to keep you and Will apart if I'm here. You won't accept yourself if I'm here.

Mike: "No, no. We'll figure something out. Well fight back. We always do."

El/Jane: "I need you to talk to the others."

-> You need to find a way out of Camazotz with the others. You need to talk to them and find your own way out. They will help you.

El/Jane: "You understand me. Better than anyone. You always have."

-> You've always understood what the others haven't been able to. You know the upside down better than anyone. You know how to get out and save them.

Proof: Mike always connected the dots the others haven't been able to. When Will told them to close the gate in S2, Mike was the only person who understood that if they closed the gate, Will would die.

Mike: "No. No."

El/Jane: "I need you to thank them for me. For being so kind to me. And teaching me what it means to be a friend."

-> You need to be kind to yourself and accept yourself and find your way out. You need to remember your friends. Your friends are the key to get out. (Will is the key to get out)

Mike: "No! Please don't do this."

El/Jane: "Mike, I need you to help them understand my choice."

-> Mike, you need to understand. You need to understand the choices you've made and how to undo them to get out. You need to help the others get out. You've always understood this better than anyone. Help them.

Mike: "But I don't. I don't understand."

El/Jane: "I know. But you will. One day you will."

-> You might not understand now, but you'll figure it out. You always do.

El/Jane: "From the day we met... you've seen me."

El/Jane: "The real me."

-> From the day we met (the day Will went missing), you've seen me (seen that I wasn't Will).

-> The real me (I'm not Will. You know it and you've been lying to yourself.)

-> I'm not Will. I'm not the one. I'm not the key. Will is. Will is the key to get out. You need to remember him. Remember.

Mike: "Please don't leave me, El. Please don't do this."

El/Jane: "I will always be with you."

-> I will always be with you (to help you get out) ->You need to remember what I've told you. I will always be here to help you.

El/Jane: "I love you."

-> I love you (but you don't love me and that's okay.)

El/Jane: "Goodbye Mike."

-> Until next time Mike.

GUYS AM I MAKING ANY SENSE PLEASE LET ME KNOW.

I genuinely think El/Jane has always known they were flayed and stuck in Camazotz, which is why she's acting so nonchalant the whole season.

She's been trying to get them all out for ages but she hasn't been able to find a way to get them all out, and she's tired 😭

Anyways, I'm going to call this Ninagate because why not?

Ninagate <33

Anyways, please let me know what you think about this theory <33

NINA 🪞 ANIN

Project Ni Na

Project An In

Projecting In

We’ll find another lead? Like, we’ll find another in? We’ll find another way in.

THIS IS A PART 2 OF MY NINAGATE POST WHICH YOU CAN FIND HERE

What if the reason for Kali being so suspicious and weird was the fact that she was trying not to alert Henry that she knew about Camazozts? She knew about his plan and the only way they could beat him is if he was busy with the main characters, so and El/Jane & Kali could attack him from the outside!

Henry is too invested in Camazozts and is so deep into the illusion that he also can't tell what is real and what is fake. That's why when El/Jane and Kali 'died', he thought they ACTUALLY died, when in reality they just woke up and got out of Camazozts!

(I haven't watched TFS, so please bear with me if this is wrong)

We know that Henry was a victim of the mindflayer just like Will, right? And we know that Will was a 'builder' for the Mindflayer, right?

What if Henry was also a builder for the Mindflayer? Instead of building tunnels and expanding the Upside Down, Henry was building Camazozts! Which is why Max ended up in his mind when she died in S4!

I think what's going on is Will is building/expanding the Upside Down, while Henry is building/expanding Camazozts. This would explain why we were shown the Mindflayer rock and all of Henry's mental abilities. He is also a builder.

So, in short:

S4

El/Jane is at the Nina Project -> She gets picked up by the Cali crew -> She fights Vecna -> She goes back to Hawkins

Max and the others are in Hawkins -> They attack Vecna -> Max dies (& is brought back)

Mike, Will & Jonathan are in California -> they pick up El/Jane -> They go back to Hawkins

Joyce, Murray & Hopper are in Russia -> They save Hopper -> They fight the Hivemind -> They go back to Hawkins

S4 (With my theory in mind)

El/Jane is at the Nina Project -> Mike and the others find her location -> She projects an image of herself to them (She shares her mind with them) -> She enters Max's mind remotely -> She doesn't defeat Vecna -> She enters Hawkins remotely, sharing her mind with the party

Max and the others are in Hawkins -> They attack Vecna -> They are flayed -> Max dies (& is brought back)

Mike, Will & Jonathan are in California -> they pick up El/Jane -> They go back to Hawkins -> They are flayed

Joyce, Murray & Hopper are in Russia -> They save Hopper -> They fight the Hivemind -> They get flayed from the particles -> They go back to Hawkins -> They are flayed

Slight Tangent

Remember when El/Jane couldn't find Vecna in her bath in season 5 for some reason?

I just remembered that she piggybacked to Max's mind, from California to Hawkins!! Distance isn't something that affects her powers (when she first made contact with the demogorgan, when she finds that Russian guy, Max etc).

Distance doesn't affect her, which is why is doesn't make sense that she couldn't find Vecna in her bath. That entire plotline doesn't make sense but whatever 😭

Another tangent...

Remember the Russia plot? With the Hivemind being in Russia?

I think they were trying to show that the Hivemind is connected even at long distances, showing that all of our characters are/can be flayed. Joyce, Hopper & Murray were flayed in Russia, but became stuck in Camazozts when they entered Hawkins.

End of tangents

Guys I actually can't remember where I was going with all of this, but I'll make another post if I remember 😭

I was actually thinking about the dead scientists and how that could relate to Ninagate and it made me think of the (missing) demos in the abyss.

Edit: it also made me think of the soldiers when the MAC-Z was attacked

We obviously expected to see the dead bodies of the scientists and we obviously expected to see the demos in the abyss, so why didn't we?

I'm thinking really hard about it and it's literally on the edge of my tongue but I can't explain it 😭

I'll come back to this once I've slept on it and try to put my thoughts into words.