#hazbin speculation

The visual language is doing a lot of quiet work here. The hair gradients alone are telling; Lilith shifts blonde to pink, Roo shifts brown to red. Pilot-era Lilith’s red sclera with white irises mirrors (old design) Roo’s eyes almost exactly. Then there’s Rosie’s Emporium reading as R.E. → “Root (of all) Evil,” which feels intentional. In the pilot photos, “Lilith’s” gaze toward Charlie reads as disapproving: cool, appraising, almost clinical. The expressions lacks familiarity or reassurance & suggests lack of attachment. I’m increasingly convinced that Roo (whether manifesting as Rosie, Eve, or some overlap of the three) is Charlie’s actual mother. The visual overlap isn’t subtle; the image of Lilith wearing the same dress as Rosie? Hello?

(If you didn't notice, Alastor proposed the deal, Vox is the one who accepted Alastor's terms, so if he ends their deal, then his soul/power is forfeit to Alastor)

Part of me thinks Rosie is Lilith, just based on the line, “Who hasn’t thought about eating their first husband?” Also the way Rosie acts towards Charlie, etc.

But I’m also wondering if the mention of Rosie’s first husband is a red herring, just like the mentions of Lilith/Alastor both being gone for seven years. Part of what bugs me is how much respect Alastor seems to have for Rosie. Not only while he’s serving her, but when he summons her as well.

Like, Alastor is kneeling, actually kneeling. He threw down the gauntlet immediately upon meeting both Lucifer and Adam, but he kneels for Rosie. And it’s not just because she’s a woman, either — Charlie is princess of hell, and all she gets are pinched cheeks and a musical theater number.

This man has zero respect/reverence for Lilith’s husband, Lilith’s daughter, or Lilith’s equal at creation. So why would he have any for Lilith?

On that note, I can’t actually wrap my head around how Lilith, a former human, could have attained that much more power than Adam (her former equal) unless she was siphoning it from her husband. Either way, she’s not going to be more awe-inducing or more worthy of respect than Adam, Lucifer, or Charlie. And Alastor didn’t seem particularly impressed by any of them.

Plus, Rosie said, “Why have you called me here, human?” Which is a weird thing to say to someone when you, yourself, used to be human. She makes a lot of references to Alastor being a mortal soul (which, okay) and offers him power greater than what his mortal mind can imagine. The phrasing gives “ancient deity”; it’s very tonally different from anything we’ve heard from Lucifer and Charlie. If that’s Lilith, then she is really overcompensating.

I’m wondering if Rosie could be a personification of death. She kind of looks like Santa Muerte, especially with the rose association. I think Azrael is sometimes depicted with flowers as well, along with other Angels of Death/the Grim Reaper. Who knows, maybe that’s why she has the neck thing in common with the exorcists. Maybe she’s in charge of them in some way. She also cried out, “OH SHIT!” when Charlie said her girlfriend was an exorcist angel, which I found to be a pretty jarring break in her demeanor.

Idk, idk. Honestly, if she’s not Lilith (or Eve) I’m going to be pissed about being misled by the line about her ex-husband. Still, though… Hard to imagine Lilith and/or Eve as a character who can go around bequeathing power. They might be older than Alastor, but they still started out as human. If Alastor needs a hell-ish sugar daddy (mommy, lol), it’s hard to imagine that Lilith and/or Eve (who, honestly, I bet count as sinners) would be any different.

Side note: Since your post about Alastor’s green powers, I’ve been thinking a lot about how in S1, Lucifer’s first reaction upon entering the hotel is a, “Ah! What in the unholy hell of creation is that!?” jump-scare over Alastor’s green bar. I feel like that means something.

I honestly have no idea what to think about the “Rosie is Lilith” (and, sort of by extension, the “Rosie is Roo”) theory. The “Rosie is Lilith” theory has some holes in it imo. For example, how? This tends to be explained by the Lilith we see in Heaven not actually being Lilith, but instead someone else (primarily Eve, from what I’ve seen). It could work, but it would require some very complicated explanations.

Rosie is, in my opinion, definitely not a Sinner. She explicitly promised to make Alastor the most powerful Sinner in Hell, which she couldn’t do if she were a Sinner. She couldn’t give him more power than she already posessed herself, right? And my understanding for a very long time was that Lilith wasn’t a Sinner. After all, Sinners are humans who die and go to Hell, but Lilith never died, she was just cast into the pit with Lucifer. That was why I thought she was so powerful, because she had never technically died and that made her special and ancient and immortal.

But then in season 2, Vox explicitly called Lilith a Sinner when he told Charlie to admit he was the strongest. “Not Alastor, not Lilith, me.”

And that opens up a whole new can of worms. If Lilith was a Sinner, then did that mean that Alastor was more powerful than the Queen of Hell with his Deal with Rosie? Would that not then imply by the transitive property that Rosie is even more powerful than Alastor or Lilith??? I’m honestly hoping that Vox was just being an idiot and had no idea what he was talking about. Lilith might be a sinner, as in a once-human-now-demon-resident-of-Hell, but I don’t think she’s a Sinner, as in a human who did and went to Hell for their sins, if that at all makes sense.

Personally, I’m not at all bothered by the first husband line, because I’ve been sticking with the headcanon that Rosie had a long series of husbands in life and death and she murdered most if not all of them. I don’t know what she is now, but I personally am almost certain she didn’t have a human life. However, she could still have a string of husbands that she murdered in Hell. After all, Alastor was able to erase souls before the exterminations began and angelic steel became available to the denizens of Hell… That could potentially be an ability he gained via his Deal with Rosie (in Mimzy’s flashback, the radio waves and the screams are in his signature green, after all… I didn’t bring that up due to space restraints and the stylization of the flashback meaning it might not be terribly trustworthy).

And, speaking of that episode (and things I ran out of space for in the Alastor’s powers post) that’s a really good catch with regards to “Dad Beat Dad”. When I made that post about Alastor’s powers, I had a whole section discussing how the green of his bayou isn’t actually the same green as the green of his powers, but it didn’t feel terribly relevant and I ran out of space for more images lol. But if you pay attention, the green used for Alastor’s bayou is much more teal-y compared to the practically neon green that characterizes his magic when using his staff or his stitches, etc.

Circling back around to Rosie, though, I personally don’t think that she herself is Lilith, though I do think she (and, by extension, Alastor) is connected to Lilith, for several reasons. The seven years, for one, but also Rosie’s clear care for Charlie. She didn’t have to help with her relationship issues, but she did, and she seemed genuinely happy when Charlie got the cannibals on her side, AND she seemed horrified and almost distraught at the idea of Alastor letting Charlie (and the others) die at the end of season 2.

I think the most compelling arguments I’ve heard so far are for Rosie is Roo (I don’t like this one as much, just because it feels a little too on-the-nose), or for Rosie is a fallen angel (Carmilla Carmine has to be a fallen angel, right??? Her grudge against Heaven seems very personal. And Carmilla and Vaggi both have gray skin, and gee you know who else has grey skin? A certain cannibal overlord… Oh, and, Vaggi and Carmilla are both clearly Hispanic, and Rosie’s skeletons + flowers stuff in “Don’t You Forget” feels very ‘Día De Los Muertos’ to me)

However, your idea about her being the personification of death is really neat. Especially with her black eyes and all the skeletons and skulls and bones motifs. Like, yes, the skeletons can be explained by her being a cannibal, too, but skeletons feel more directly tied to death, imo.

As for Alastor kneeling, it could also be him trying to suck up to get what he wants or him being relatively inexperienced. Human Alastor was powerless and essentially asking for help from a literal demon. Present Alastor is himself a demon, the most powerful sinner in Hell, and clearly has some plot going on with the hotel. Nearly 100 years have passed between Alastor making his Deal with Rosie and the present, so he’s had plenty of time to get very cocky.

Exploring the different family dynamics and comparing and contrasting them, could genuinely take a full 20 episode season by itself.

here are all the different family dynamics that could be explored, and what roles they could serve in the narrative.

The Morningstars:

Lilith and Lucifer’s early relationships.

The end before she left eight years ago.

Charlie’s early relationship with both of her parents.

Charlie’s relationship before Lilith disappeared.

Charlie’s relationship with both in her emo days which we know about because Lucifer had a photo of her in his workshop.

The Von Eldritchs:

Frederick, The patriarchs relationship to Lucifer.

His relationship to his two children, Helsa and Seviathan.

His relationship to Charlie.

His relationship to his own wife.

Seviathan’s relationship to Charlie.

Helsa’s rivalry with Charlie.

The siblings relationship with each other!

Lady Von Eldritch’s relationship to Lilith.

Her relationship with her own children.

Her relationship to Charlie.

Who each of them even are as people!

(and that’s not even to mention their potential connection to Leviathan! And how they rose to power in the first place!)

As Parallels:

Lucifer and Lilith seem to be going through a rough patch as indicated by Charlie’s line “After He [Lucifer] and mom split.”

The Von Eldritch story could parallel them.

Fred and his wife being super close and still very much in love.

Both Sev and Helsa could parallel Charlie.

Maybe they’re so successful and respected by their peers and Family.

Maybe the parents are super proud and supportive of their kids in a way that Lucifer wasn’t to Charlie in the beginning.

Maybe Charlie compares herself to Sev and Helsa, envious of the relationship and unconditional love and support they seem to get from BOTH parents.

Maybe Lady Von Eldritch is super involved in her children’s lives, even now.

it could either be a message about parents, coddling their children and those children ending up spoiled

it could be at all the grass always seems greener on the other side, (by which I mean, Charlie could be very envious of how involved both their parents seem well the Von Eldritch children are envious of Charlie’s parents, and how they give her so much freedom and room to breathe.

Their parents are more involved in their life that also comes with them having a lot of expectations put on their shoulders.)

Angel Dust’s Family:

Molly

Arakniss

His abusive father

the “Family Business”

molly’s relationship to Arakniss

Molly’s relationship to Angel

Arakniss’s relationship to Angel

The Children’s Mother!

The relationship all three have with their parents.

Alastor’s Family:

His Mother (As a person)

Alastor being a mama’s boy

her, potentially being a single black woman in the 1930s

His Father

whether or not his father was actually a good man, or if he was neglectful

Mimzy (I’m counting her.)

As Parallels:

(Just my speculations)

Angel dust could have a grown-up in a big family (potentially wealthy, due to the criminal organization) where he was never really given a moment to himself.

That doesn’t necessarily mean that he wasn’t extremely lonely and miserable.

what’s the point in having such a big loving family with people constantly around you if there isn’t any love to be shared.

on the flipside if Alastor did come from a smaller, poor family, that was filled with love, that could be a good thematic parallel to the “Spider” family.

but Alastor’s family (his father specifically) could also be a good parallel to Charlie’s relationship with Lucifer.

maybe Alastor did have a bad father, and he is just aghast and appalled that Lucifer thinks he can so easily worm his way back into Charlie’s life, or that he even thinks he deserves to be in his daughters life after all the neglect.

OR

Maybe Alastor did have a good father, despite the racism of the time.

Maybe his father “took responsibility” and married his mother, (I don’t know if he actually could back in the early 1900s) giving both of them, the best and most loving life that he could provide.

maybe, despite all of the rumors and looks that his father would’ve received, he still loved Alastor and his Mother dearly.

Maybe that instilled in him that there are men who try, and there are men who don’t.

If Alastor’s father stayed, that could send the message that there is no excuse for neglect, or being absent.

whichever way you wanna slice it this would be another reason why Alastor did not like Lucifer the first time he came over.

Found Family/Misc:

The Vees relationships with each other when they’re not being coerced by Alastor.

How they formed.

The Hotel being Vaggie’s found Family.

Vaggie’s sisters in Arms.

Carmilla’s daughter’s (if they are actually adopted).

Carmilla and Zestial.

Zestial’s relationship with Odette and Clara.

Alastor being Charlie’s mentor!

Adam and Emily.

Adam and Sera.

Sera and Emily.

Emily and Abel.

Adam and Abel.

Lute and Abel.

Sera and Abel.

CAIN AND ABEL!

Okay, maybe this has gotten a bit rambly. Adjusting tracks back to Vox, television as a medium is all about sex appeal. Everything needs to be sexy. Flashy sex and being hot and attractive and wantable are all TV things. Things have to look good for TV. Who cares if it's vapid or emotionally shallow.

Maybe this isn't a hot take, but it's my take.

Alastor - asexual

What actually happened:

Kristen Bell.

She’s pretty damn famous, but considering how many big name Broadway stars are already on the show, not an impossible get. Notable for her role on The Good Place where she plays a selfish, rebellious, Arizonian dirtbag who gets sent to (non-denominational) Hell.

The other role most people will know her from? Coincidentally one that also demonstrates her great singing ability?

Anna from Frozen. Y’know, the girl who became Queen after the second movie?

Continuation of this post.

I will take it with a grain of salt, since the streams are not always completely accurate anyway.

I would love to see an episode centered around trying to make it through Hell as a child, or perhaps arriving as a child and then maturing into an adult mentally in such a dangerous environment, likely without any proper role models. Crymini is a teenager, from what I understand, so we might get to see some of that with her.