I thought on your discussion of the parallels and how much Fates relies on there being subtext to talk about the story in-depth and how much relies on being willing to interact with the story and the cast,

This is a fairly recent claim I've seen from defenders of Fates' story, that it's actually so #Deep that people just missed it. Who cares that we don't know where the countries' borders end, look at all that symbolism. This is convenient, since you don't have to actually defend a point that purports to be self-evident by its very nature, and it also lets you big yourself up as some sort of intellectual for noticing it, while simultaneously tearing opponents down as missing the point.

Furthermore, without any corroborating evidence from the devs, this definitionally cannot be anything more than headcannon on the part of fans to patch up the writers' fumbles. It's no different from fans of the Prequel trilogies trying to justify the writing of Padme and Anakin's relationship for George Lucas.

and then I look at how 3H and even Awakening are overall more popular.

And Xeno and his ilk remain very bitter about it to this day! I don't love how people like Tales of Vesperia more than Tales of Berseria, but I haven't dedicated my life to tearing down Vesperia.

3H especially, which irks me because 3H is about as discordant and downright anarchic as a story can get with nothing of value to say about things that aren't mealy-mouthed apologetics for its characters who are in the wrong, and yet it gets all the credit because it's delivered better.

Yup, Three Houses has no message and is bad because it doesn't condemn the Bad Red Lady enough, is anyone surprised? Fire Emblem stories, especially from the GBA era onward, had always been about a Bad Person causing the war pretty much single-handedly. Zephiel, Lyon, Ashnard, Sephiran behind Ashnard, Anankos. Three Houses tries to show how the war was bigger than simply Edelgard and her ambitions, and her haters predictably got furious about it. She might have pulled the trigger, but it only happened because of the foundation of Fodlan's deep corruption within the aristocracy and the clergy.

Fates really is a story that's excellent yet delivered in quite possibly one of the worst ways imaginable to audiences,

A story terribly conveyed is a terrible story. End of.

which is frustrating given people have been pretty consistently dismissive of anyone who points out these depths do exist and that it's apparently just being "cliche" despite the sentiments all interconnecting?

Spoiler... but these "depths" are just standard Eastern media setting cliches.

Like, Fates has an absolutely massive amount of parallels, symbolism and themes.

Anon's gonna share some soon. It won't go well for them.

It doesn't need a name for the continent even, because it makes itself clear through visual context, subtext and clues throughout the story how much everything interconnects into a bigger story that genuinely means it when it says both sides of the conflict are victims in a terrible, pointless war, and ties into its bathos, ethos and logos flawlessly.

A war one of those "victims" initiated unprovoked upon the other. It's rich how often Xeno and his anons will scream about Fates whitewashing Edelgard just to turn around and whitewash Nohr.

"But the royal family is just so SAD :("

Also, ethos and logos, fine, but bathos?

Fates starts off with a lofty tone that suddenly descends into absurdity?

I think anon used the term in the sense that it's the Greek word for "depth", but that's not the way the term is used with regards to literary analysis. This really just makes anon come across as pretentious, in my opinion.

Also, back to the point on the name. The usual argument is that Fateslandia doesn't have a name because Hoshido and Nohr have only ever been at war with each other, so they never collaborated to make a name for it. Even if I believed that statement, for which there isn't much support, wouldn't the two kingdoms logically have their own names for the continent? And you can't just argue they call the continent "Hoshido" and "Nohr" because Hoshido and Nohr aren't the only two countries in the land, or even the only ones on their own sides of the Bottomless Canyon.

Hell, a little known fact that illustrates what I mean: Fire Emblem Fates takes a lot from Chinese geomancy as a whole. I mean, straight from TV Tropes: If one catches the connection to the First Dragons' power in the Dragon Veins and their relation to the practice of Feng Shui, it becomes readily apparent why Azura, the Avatar, Anankos, and other associates of Valla have such a strong water motif. One of the central ideas behind Feng Shui is that among the parts of nature making up the world, Chi (analogous to Dragon Vein power) flows best in water (shui). It also ties in with why Takumi is so powerful when possessed by Anankos that he becomes a Final Boss: second to water, the next best part of nature to gather and read the flow of chi is the Fujin Yumi's element, wind (feng).

It's very easy to miss, but the symbols that appear when you activate a Dragon Vein aren't made-up.

Anon's going to continue on for a while, but yes, they're based on the Four Gods, a frequently recurring motif in Eastern media. So frequently recurring, in fact, that Three Houses has shades of them too in the four saints of the Church of Seiros.

They actually represent the Fire Dragon, Ground Dragon, Water Dragon and Wind Dragon among the First Dragons; the Fire Dragon represents an avian bird of some kind and is depicted as destroying structures and being strengthened by nature,

When Anon says "nature", he means wood. Also, the literal first time we see the Fire Dragon in action, it's when it evaporates the river in the prologue, and then when we see it again in ch4 it's used to melt the snow mountains. Rivers and snow aren't structures, and in the Chinese element wheel, water's supposed to restrain fire, not the other way around.

the Ground Dragon represents a felid-like creature who can warp the ground around it to move nature while being strengthened by the earth,

Byakko, the White Tiger, represents the element of metal, not earth. The Ground Dragon controls the ground when summoned via Dragon Vein, but in Feng Shui, earth creates metal, metal doesn't have control over the earth. Metal strengthens (or creates, I've seen both used) water and restrains wood, but the Ground Dragon is called upon to control the earth, not to make water or influence weather, trees, or air currents.

the Water Dragon is a tortoise wrapped around a snake and responsible for the manipulation or receding of water and also putting out flames and is given shape by metal,

Genbu indeed represents water, but Byakko represents metal, and anon failed to explain any link between them in the context of Fates.

Also, it's "responsible for the manipulation or receding of water," except in the prologue, where the Fire Dragon evaporates the river, or in Conquest chapter 10, where Takumi quite famously uses the Wind Dragon to pull back the tide and expose the lower levels.

It does, however, melt the ice lake in conquest chapter 8, though if we were being consistent you'd think the Fire Dragon would do that. Also, water in the Chinese elements restrains fire, but the Fire Dragon is used to control the flames in Revelation chapter 16 when you'd think the Water Dragon would do that. Also, the Water Dragon is never used to create trees.

and the Wind Dragon is a Eastern dragon who represents using wind to control the physical spaces around it while being strengthened by water.

Wind is not a Chinese element. Seiryū represents wood. Also it seems more to me like the Wind Dragon beats water, rather than getting strengthened by it, but no, wood restrains earth, not water, yet Takumi uses the Wind Dragon's influence to overcome the goddamn ocean.

If one hasn't caught on, not only is this is exactly what The Four Gods represents — respectively Suzaku, Byakko, Genbu and Seiryu — but it's also the fundamental principles as reflected in game of what element strengthens which

I wish Anon would list some examples of these elements strengthening one another in the context of Fates specifically, because while I do know how the elements link to one another in the context of the five Chinese elements, Anon hasn't really done much other than assert that they're related to the Four Dragons in some way. And as I've pointed out a few times, Fates doesn't properly convey those relations.

and what element controls the other in Feng Shui!

Except Anon failed to show how the elements relate to one another. The reality is the elemental dragons are generally just used in a rather rpg way, doing what you'd generally expect to see from the elements in action. The four dragons don't properly relate to the elements they're supposed to, going by their visual appearances and how they relate to the Four Gods, nor do they interact with each other's elements in the way they're supposed to.

This is what we call window dressing, not depth. It's not dissimilar to how Three Houses uses the Major Tarot to represent the various Crests, except Three Houses at least had the Crest bearers' stories or personalities relate to the Tarot associated with their Crest.

Justice, for instance, is represented by the Crest of Blaiddyd, and is about balance, accountability, and reflection for your actions throughout your life. This perfectly relates to Dimitri's story.

The existence of Anankos completes this by giving an extra trifecta to the five sacred weapons and his role with the other dragons.

A trifecta is three things, not five.

Takumi's weapon obviously represents Wind,

Once again, wind is not an element in the Chinese elements. I guess you could argue it's associated with wood, but it's not an element in and of itself.

while Ryoma's Raijinto is actually tied to Fire in Feng Shui,

...No, it's tied to thunder. It's right there in the name, Raijinto, meaning literally "thunder god sword".

while Xander's dark sword represents the winter and is tied to Water,

No, how is it tied to water? He attacks using waves of darkness.

while Leo's ability to manipulate the earth and gravity is tied to Metal.

Brynhildr manipulates wood, Leo creates a grove of trees when he attacks with it! Metal restrains wood (by cutting it down). And, AGAIN, Metal doesn't manipulate earth in the Chinese elements, and also earth and wood are separate elements! Anon's being incredibly sloppy with his wording.

And meanwhile, at the center of it all is Yato — and what does Anankos and Valla represent?

I thought they represented water? Anon said so themself in the intro to this section, Anankos, Corrin, and Valla have a strong water motif.

A land below the ground and the center of the Earth, and represents the land below. And then you realize Earth controls Water... then you recognize how not only is Anankos represents Earth and is Kohryu,

Except the Ground Dragon is the one shown to have power over the earth (despite referencing the White Tiger, which represents Metal, which shouldn't have power over earth), while Anankos has power over water. Also, the Water Dragon also has power over water, but only sometimes.

but also makes literally all of the rest of the five elements fall into place with it as a direct result.

Sure, chief.

So to summarize:

Brynhildr is metal because it controls earth (even though it creates trees, meaning wood), so by anon's logic, element A which, in the Chinese elements is strengthened by element B, controls element B. Gotcha.

Siegfried is water... presumably because anon says so. They don't even try to justify this one. Also, Siegfried is never used to control metal or water, it controls darkness.

Fujin Yumi is wind, (which isn't a Chinese element), because it controls... wind. Wouldn't Brynhildr control metal if it's supposed to be metal? By the logic Anon established with the Brynhildr, Fujin Yumi should represent fire because it controls wind, which I guess you could loosely associate with wood. Also, we now have two sets of standards: Brynhildr logic means an element controls that element which strengthens it, and Fujin Yumi logic means an element controls only its own element. Neither logic is consistent with the Chinese elemental wheel, mind you.

Raijinto is fire, also because anon says so. It also doesn't control wood.

And lastly, Yato is earth, even though it never displays earth powers (Fujin Yumi logic) or fire powers (Brynhildr logic)

God, if I had a nickel for every time I had to dissect a tortured Chinese Elements argument, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice, right?

What's maddening is that the game routinely displays this kind of foresight and depth throughout the story and how each of the narratives details all check out, the logos, pathos and ethos each.

Anon threw out the baby with the bathos water.

"Why is it that Garon is so cartoonishly evil?" Because he's a literal warped parody of a dragon god that has been isolated for thousands of years after having committed genocide on his own people, maddened into misanthropy and thus not quite knowing how to behave like a human being;

Nobody's asking why Garon is cartoonishly evil, they just say it's shit writing that he is.

the Nohrian royals know something is very wrong with Garon, they're just too scared to confront the issue due to their once-noble father being turned into such a horrible monster.

So they're a pack of cowards. What heroes!

"Why is it that Iago and Hans are even allowed to do what they do?" Because Garon - and by extension, Anankos's - whole goal is to destroy the world. Having two psychopaths run it to the ground would be an excellent way to hasten that process.

Nobody's asking why they're allowed to do what they do, people just say they suck as villains, because they do.

"Why is it that Hoshido is so pacifistic and Mikoto so perfect?". Because it isn't; it was a warrior culture that had conquered just like Hoshido (the Great Wall of Suzanoh is just a testament to it existing to ward off invasions from likely Nohr), Sumeragi comes from a long line of samurai

If having a warrior culture means Hoshido sucks, then so does Faerghus. At least Hoshido hasn't recently committed genocide.

"Why is it that the story never comments on Mikoto being sisters with Arete?". Because Mikoto is almost assuredly an adoptee from a Hoshidan branch in Valla that was given the blood of the First Dragons like the Vallite royals; her namesake, hair color and genealogy all clash too much from most of the Vallite royals having Greco-Romanic-Vedic names and aqua hair colors.

There, right there. "Almost assuredly an adoptee". Anon has to speculate that because the writers never clarify the point. Also what does that have to do with Mikoto being Arete's sister? People only lambast the relationship because it sloppily and awkwardly makes Corrin and Azura cousins for no reason at all.

And these are just the common criticisms Fates has;

So common that Anon didn't understand a one of them!

there's so many more little details that makes perfect sense when you actually think on it a little,

Then go ahead and share them, and make sure the game actually conveys these ideas and they're not something you had to headcannon.

because the entire game is a deconstruction of superficial black-and-white morality by showing that both sides are human and you have loved ones on both sides.

I'm sorry, but showing that there's gewd peeple in Nohr doesn't change the fact that one nation is just minding its own business, while the other is trying to invade and conquer it as a naked landgrab and nothing more. The Nohr royal family (minus Elise, who isn't in a position to really do anything about it and is honestly the bravest of all her siblings) being SCARED of Garon is a pathetic effort to absolve them of their Camus behavior, especially Xander.

Garon IS what the Edelgard haters think Edelgard is.

The Nohrian royal family IS what Edelgard haters think the Black Eagles are when they're on her side.

And the infuriating part? People continuously dismiss Fates like it somehow has no debt.

...Debt? Did you mean "depth"?

Even when you show supports and scripts showing the full picture, they just go "this didn't happen in my playthrough, so it doesn't count." Oftentimes insulting the person's intelligence for "not admitting Fates is bad," effectively.

Fates discourse was a long time ago and I don't really remember it so well anymore, but that's definitely not happening with Engage, which is catching about as much flack as Fates did in the writing department (honestly, while I think Engage's characters are generally better-written, I detest the main story even more than I do Fates', because Fates was at least trying to do something novel. Engage put in zero effort and still fucked up).

Nowadays, I don't really see people jumping down most peoples' throats when they say they like Fates, unless the Fates defender is being a petulant brat about it. Here's a good example of it in action:

I'm covering names, but I'll use a consistent coloring for each person.

Red over here gets upset at people trashing on scenes from Fates and Engage, so they launch into an indignant diatribe against Three Houses.

But anyways, those of you familiar with Fates/Engage writing discourse are probably checking your watches, wondering when the Three Houses whutaboutism is going to begin. Well rest easy, because that's next.

There's just something strange about defenders of Fates and Engage, they so very seldom defend their game, they just go "but Three Houses was worse!"

Even if that was true, it's just whutaboutism. The reality here is the bitterness that Three Houses' writing is well-regarded (for the franchise at least) and Fates and Engage's are not, and the writing is the most prominent albatrosses around both games' necks.

The truth is, people hated Fates' writing before Three Houses came out, and they would have hated Engage's if Three Houses never existed, and honestly, I suspect with the hypothetical triple-whammy of Fates, Echoes, and Engage all coming out and all being terribly-written, people might start to just check out on Fire Emblem being capable of having good writing anymore at all. I know I'm nervous about the future of the series, when a remake of a SaGa game from the 90's is genuinely better written than Engage (the memory walk at the end of Revenge of the Seven makes me tear up every time, dammit).

Meanwhile, 3H has people so enamored with the idea of what it is that if you actually analyze what it says versus what's actually happening in subtext, context and implications, it completely falls apart and shows the "grey morality" isn't remotely grey.

I'm just going to let anon ramble for a bit because... they've got a very strange definition of gray morality.

The only lord who's even remotely decent people are Dimitri and Claude, and Dimitri had his phase as the Boar following the Duscur massacre and even Claude is a slippery weasel who sides with the strongest faction any time he's not the focus (and sometimes even when he is). Rhea is a traumatized genocide survivor and a cosummate liar trying to make meaning of an abusive system and is just a horrible person that even Seteth becomes afraid of, and Edelgard is willing to kill thousands to burn down a system and is openly a revanchist tyrant who makes cheap, palsy claims of guilt or "regret" for the lives she's taken, but willingly let what happened at Remire happened and still sided with Those Who Slithers.

...So apparently gray morality is when everyone is perfect?

(And yes, we're just gonna ignore the exhausted Edelgard slander).

And unlike what people say about Fates and Valla, the existence of the Agarthans completely destroys any moral nuance 3H is.

I wouldn't say they completely destroy the moral nuance, but they definitely fuck it up. The Agarthans are such a strange group to have exist in a story that's otherwise really good at showing everyone having a point, even if only a small one. Maybe they're supposed to be the extreme end of everyone thinking they're the hero? The Agarthans certainly do.

Fates's point was "even though these factions seem good and evil, they're so much more complex than that and nations aren't first appearances; they are full of people too, good and bad".

Yeah, Garon's super complex.

3H's point was a measly-mouthed attempt at acting like nobody is the right, conveniently having whatever faction Byleth chooses being the moral victor even when all evidence should show the contrary,

No, 3H's point was certainly not that nobody was in the right. The point was that Edelgard, Claude, Dimitri, and even Rhea had good and bad parts to them. Whichever character you choose to support has their best traits show all the brighter, and the others slide into deeper darkness. Be it Edelgard turning herself into a monster, Dimitri becoming a murderous monster who leads his people to ruin, Claude looking out only for himself at the expense of all others, and Rhea going insane and burning a city down as a last grasp at killing Byleth.

but while Fates is reviled for being a sensible work with an awkward delivery,

But it's not a sensible work, it's been analyzed ad nauseum for almost ten years. There's a reason EmblemXeno and anon have retreated to just bitterly stewing on Tumblr: they lose whatever arguments they get into the instant they step outside their echo chamber.

3H is loved for being a nonsensical mess of conflicting details

Anon, just because you didn't understand the point doesn't mean there was no point.

because it figures it might as well not care about actually making a point and instead saying what people wanted to hear

I'm really curious to see what anon thought was supposed to be Three House's point. Red Lady bad?

because it's, sadly, completely correct that fans only look at the first impression regardless of if it has any weight to it,

In Three Houses, especially, that's super ironic, seeing as how all three lords subvert their first impressions.

because they've invented depth that does not exist. And that results in a fandom that cannot agree on basic facts and details;

Partly, that's because people get things wrong and keep parroting their wrong ideas as though they were correct, and then others don't fact check them. For a while there, people were insisting that Hapi's ending in Azure Moon states definitively that she helps Dimitri find and defeat the Agarthans in Shambhala when it most certainly does not.

The issue is that Three Houses hides a lot of its details into the depths of its worldbuilding and leaves a lot to interpretation. To people who demand clear answers, I suppose that would be a bad thing, but I think it's part of the game's strength.

ironic for the fandom that focuses so much on being "objectively correct" with their analysis in dismissing Fates altogether, while they are blind to their own headcanons dominating the sphere because they're chasing phantoms.

Ironic that anon is whining about headcannons.

Anon then whines for a little bit about Awakening, and far be it for me to gainsay them on that because I fuckin' hate Awakening, its gameplay is dumpster tier and its writing peaks in chapter 10 out of a 26 chapter game, not counting gaidens.

But [Awakening] at least feels like an FE game to me, with all the love, empathy, kindness and kickass swords. 3H is so unlike an FE game in spirit and essence

Sure, anon. Whatever you say.

Emblem Xeno tends to get a lot of anons (or just the same anon constantly reiterating the same point) saying that Three Houses "doesn't have the spirit of a true Fire Emblem game" but they can never explain what that means.

I guess it's not a true Fire Emblem game if it ponders, "but what if the godly dragons weren't flawless?" or, "actually should the nobles be held to certain standards?"

Oh well, we all have to start somewhere.

that I would legitimately accept it more if it actually was a brand new series altogether,

People would still be calling Fates and Engage poorly written even if Three Houses was part of the Water Sigil franchise it was, Anon.

but as is, it tethering to the FE brand as the most popular FE game proves you can get away with any shitty sentiment in your works as long as you honey your words enough;

"Maybe people deserve to live the kinds of lives they want to live" is a shitty sentiment?

doesn't matter how right you are or how much you have depth and meaning, it doesn't matter shit if your delivery is shit,

I'm still waiting to hear about all that depth and meaning, Anon, and hopefully they can manage something better than a horribly-mangled reference to the Chinese elements.

because most people only look at first impressions and not if it's actually true or not.

Fates has been analyzed, discussed, and retrospectived so many times that we're now on the three-thousandth impression, and it hasn't exactly improved over the last ten years.

And it's fucking disappointing seeing the average person be so incapable of that, while people like you or I are rare.

Anon then closes by talking about Dragon Age: Veilguard and the recent Harry Potter game, neither of which I've played or am interested in, so I guess we'll just close this here.

So yeah, that was some impressive whining!

But before we go, Emblem Xeno had a few things to say in response to the ask:

Hoshido and Nohr are themselves Yin-Yang, darkness within light (Hoshido being peaceful yet having cracks underneath) and light within darkness (Nohr being antagonistic yet full of good people)

Supposedly good people, yet it's also where Iago, Hans, and all of their genocidal soldiers come from. Who from Hoshido is as bad? Haitaka? Emblem Xeno talks about Hoshido having "cracks underneath", but generally this is just "there's a lot of rout maps, so clearly Birthright Corrin is bloodthirsty", funny how the lack of rout maps in Crimson Flower never gets brought up; "Hoshido never helped Nohr with their famine", we don't actually know what sort of relation the two nations had prior to Sumeragi's death, and after that Hoshido naturally wouldn't be helping Nohr with anything; and also "Hoshido is isolationist and that's bad" though I don't recall any evidence of it being that.

Takumi has heavy darkness within his heart, hence why he's able to be warped by Anankos.

The bit about his beloved stepmother (rip Ikona again, gotta make sure the player can bang their siblings) dying in a shocking tragedy, his kingdom getting steamrolled thanks to Corrin, losing both his beloved retainers thanks to Corrin, and his beloved little sister (Sakura's one of the only people he's completely friendly with, they're pretty cute together) getting captured by a Kingdom of vicious murderers had nothing to do with it.

Nah, it was because he had darkness in his heart, kinda like Riku, y'know?

The Japanese version of his solo ending even says that seeing the good in people after peace is attained was able to suppress that darkness.

Whatever, I'll take Xeno's word for it, I can't confirm or deny that one.

And Elise is constantly compared to being a light in a kingdom of darkness.

I think that only comes up once, when she's first introduced?

Plus, those two are also parallels to each other in terms of story roles (alongside being opposites of Leo and Sakura as well of course), given how both were pushed to death through no fault of their own, and were suffering through external circumstances! Takumi gets corrupted through his existing hatred, and Elise gets depressed when the light of her life-her family-is dimming.

Do they really work as parallels, though? Takumi ends up at his worst on the route opposite the one where he's playable, while Elise just ends up the same as always. Now if she was the final boss of Birthright, that'd totally work. And also it'd be fucking incredible, imagine that shit! Like if she went full zealot somehow and became some sort of light-based evil? I dunno how that'd work, though.

Either way, I don't really see how Takumi and Elise are foils when the only thing connecting them is they fuckin' die and both get sick.

Like... aren't these things worthy of discussion?

Well, it's just really shallow and not terribly interesting. It'd be like pointing out how the Tales of series so often references the big four elements and acting like that's depth, when it's really just recurring series trappings.

I honestly think that people don't talk about them because they have the notion that Fates' writing is bad, so there must be nothing deeper.

Well you sure aren't going to convince people of this by hiding in a little hole on Tumblr, Xeno. Oh, but we know why you hide: you make a fool of yourself whenever you try to argue points elsewhere.

No! Execution of a story can fuck things up greatly, and the fact that some are unwilling to even admit that? Makes me sad.

Admit what, that execution of a story can fuck things up greatly? I don't think anyone's doubting that. In fact, from what I've seen generally people agree that Fates had an interesting idea, it just wasn't executed very well.

Here’s another version of it without the line art