#bird primary

That's fair. 'System' is a word I only use in the context of Bird primaries, so I just use it less.

A 'performance' is acting. You know you're 'pretending' while you do it, you don't do it while you're by yourself. Like 'customer service face' - that's a performance. (Kind of an exaggerated perky Badger performance.)

A 'model' is an additional primary or secondary you teach yourself how to use because it's fun, it's useful, it's cool, it's a coping mechanism, it's culturally required. It goes deeper than a performance and becomes 'part' of you more. You probably do keep using it while alone. Like to keep up the Badger example, there is a sort of "Good Parent" Badger secondary model a lot of people think is either useful or required. BUT... if it becomes necessary, or if you don't have the extra bandwidth... you can and will drop your model.

I. Freaking. Love. This. Movie. Is it historically accurate? Not especially. Is the story fairly simple? Yes, but there's a difference between a SIMPLE story and a SIMPLISTIC one. The performances are top notch, the music, the costumes... *chef's kiss.*

So, without further ado...

Maximus is a Badger primary. He recognizes the humanity in the Germanic tribes-- "would you (know you're beaten), Quintus? Would I?" He's a great general, but his heart is at home with his family. After the first battle, he spends time among the wounded and is upset when it is suggested that they "died for nothing." He's deeply loyal to the memory Marcus Aurelius. Wherever Maximus goes, he collects people (Juba, Proximo, the German, Lucius) by being kind when he doesn't necessarily need to be. He inspires loyalty and goodness in others just by being who he is.

In true protagonist style, Maximus is a Lion secondary. There's no pretending with him-- if Maximus feels something is wrong, he won't do it. "With all my heart, no," he says to Marcus Aurelius when he initially refusing to become protector of Rome-- it's a gut reaction. He will not salute Commodus; he turns his back on him. Though he shows some Bird-like strategizing in battle, to me, it reads as an intuitive grasp of going on-- the art of reacting to things rather than planning for them. Even his habit of feeling the earth before going into battle screams Lion: it's a tactile, grounding, in-the-moment exercise.

Lucilla is a Snake primary. She cares about Rome, she cares about her father's memory, she cares about Maximus-- but at the end of the day, she will prioritize her son's safety ahead of everyone and everything else. (Side note: I think that Ridley Scott writes Snake women a lot-- Lucilla and Sybilla from Kingdom of Heaven are pretty much the same character). There's room to argue for more depth here, but I feel that her primary is pretty straightforward.

I read Lucilla as a Bird secondary. She's strategic where Maximus is not. She makes practical decisions, lays plans, and collects information behind the scenes. She also seems to use a bit of a Snake secondary model-- or maybe it's her Bird secondary in an "Actor Bird" form. She knows how to play Commodus, and tries something similar with Maximus-- a little flirty, a little coy-- and drops it the minute she sees it's not working with him.

Commodus is also a Snake primary, but an Exploded one. His whole worldview and perception of himself is wrapped up in a handful of people. He's desperate for his father's approval, even after he kills him (there's a scene in the director's cut with Commodus destroying a bust of Marcus Aurelius, then hugging/clinging to the ruins). All Commodus wants to be loved by his father, his sister, and the people of Rome. With the latter, he compares himself to a father and the people to children. He wants to give them the love he feels he was denied. But his idea of love is destructive to his wellbeing and the wellbeing of those around him. In the end, it gets him killed in the arena-- defeated by his own need for the crowd's approval.

Commodus is a Lion secondary with absolutely no impulse control. His father rejects him? Kill him. Maximus defies him? Try to kill him. His one strategic success comes when he accepts the counsel of a senator to "let (his enemies) come... and nibble." Challenging Maximus-- a GENERAL with YEARS OF EXPERIENCE-- to fight him in the arena is a terrible idea, but Commodus does it anyway.

Marcus Aurelius doesn't get as much screen time as I wish he did (RIP, Richard Harris). He's our lone Bird primary. He's THE Philosopher. He has carefully constructed his worldview, weighed his options, and decided on a course of action. He believes that Commodus is "not a moral man" because he lacks the virtues that Marcus Aurelius values: wisdom, justice, fortitude, and temperance. His choice to make Maximus the protector of Rome is careful and deliberate-- he's observed Maximus in many situations and knows that he does not desire power. That's why it must be Maximus. It's perfectly logical to him, and he believes that he can explain it to any reasonable person (unfortunately, Commodus is far from reasonable). Marcus Aurelius forever puts first the idea of Rome: it is his bright, shining TRUTH.

He's also a Bird secondary: the man writes like nobody's business. He's a deep thinker, a strategist, a collector of maps and other odds and ends to put in his toolkit.

I read Proximo as a Glory Hound Lion. He was once a gladiator himself, and you can feel it in his speeches about the crowd: even though he knows that fame is a fickle mistress, he loves the adulation, the money, being a star. He misses it. He believes that he and his men belong in the Colosseum. Before they go in to fight, he fills them up with his vision of glory.

I think that he's a Snake secondary. He can be charming, he can be adaptable. He plays people off each other to get the best price. He was "the best" in the arena because he "won the crowd." But he knows how and when to cut his loses and go blunt. He describes himself as "an entertainer."

Bonus! I see Juba as a Double Badger. He tends to Maximus's wound even before they become friends. He relies on memories of his people and traditions when things are at their bleakest. He offers encouragement in his own quiet, wise way. Some of the best lines in the movie are his, IMO: "I will see you again. But not yet. Not yet," and "you have a great name. He must kill your name before he kills you."

TL;DR:

Maximus: Badger Primary, Lion Secondary ("The Protagonist")

Lucilla: Snake Primary, Bird Secondary, possible Snake secondary model ("The Villain/the Mastermind")

Commodus: Snake Primary, Lion Secondary ("The Lancelot")

Marcus Aurelius: Bird Primary, Bird Secondary ("The Scientist")

Proximo: Lion Primary, Snake Secondary ("The Robin Hood")

Juba: Badger Primary, Badger Secondary ("The Peacemaker")

[spoilers ahead for both lorien legacies and its sequel series!]

there is a LOT of ground to cover here, and i am mostly going to limit myself to sorting characters and themes from the first series, but my initial notes are:

probably one of the biggest overarching themes of the series is toxic birdsec, and the harm it can do to every aspect of a society or a person's life--on both a systematic level and an individual one--right down to their basic humanity. by extension it also goes into similarly fucked up lion and bird primary used as weapons and tools of abuse, and how they interplay with each other.

a large part of this stems from setrákus ra being The Worst Fucking Lion Bird Ever to Live, lmao. he's an interesting example of birdsec interplaying with cannibal badger, and also of a lion bird who's a cheetah in that he uses systems as tools to manipulate people instead of actually believing them. he hands out toxic systems like candy while peppering them with outright lies, and blithely admits that even the one that he's put centuries into building--mogadorian progress, and the great book--is at its heart just a ruse to run his cult on. the truth he pretends to worship and champion isn't external, objective truth--it's an extension of him. he is the ultimate truth. and the only truth he believes in is his cause, which is that he has the right and ability to own, make use of, and do whatever he sees fit with everything in existence. everyone and everything that could possibly be a shiny or a tool belongs to him.

one of the other overarching themes is toxic badger primary and secondary--cannibal badgering AHOY--as well as toxic lion primary, and it is a great deal less intentional than the bird cautionary tale part lmao

five is a bird snake with deeply toxic lion primary and bird secondary models, one of which he picked up after getting involved with a cult, and one of which he's had since his abusive birdsec guardian started amputating his masks by trying to apply actor bird to them. :') his brand of birdsplode and snakeburn make him horribly, horribly vulnerable to the cult, especially combined with focused, one-on-one gaslighting and manipulation from setrákus himself, and he has to burn his bird right to a crisp to break away from it. i am very biased and i have so much to say about my boy, but i plan to go in depth about this later

there are a LOT of lionsecs among the loric garde kids. the only surviving ones who aren't lionsecs are marina's badger and five's snake (the latter of which is heavily villainized, lol); number one is either a lionsec or a snakesec, maggie is either a birdsec or a badgersec, and we don't really see enough of hannu to be sure, but my guess is badgersec. in context, whatever these books are saying here i am not sure i like it lmao

this stands in contrast to the non-garde allies, minus adam, who end up being Part of the Gang. sam and lexa are birdsecs, and sarah and malcolm are both badgersecs.

speaking of adam, he is a lion snake with a cool, calculated double bird performance/model, who has been waiting all his life for a chance to go Absolutely Feral. there are a lot of ways in which he's a real shithead, which track given his life and circumstances up to then but are also real 😬 sometimes, but like, good for him. go ape shitt, kid

nine is an awful, AWFUL double lion who models/performs the worst parts of badger primary; he also uses lionsec stereotypes and methods to misdirect people, so that he can hurt, gaslight, prey on, and abuse them. it's genuinely interesting how he does it, and i could go on for a long time about it, but it's also Infuriating because the authors really want you to love him for being a ~charming jerk with a heart of gold,~ so that is for another post. in the sequel series he also picks up a nasty posthumous birdsec model from sandor to gleefully torture children with so lmfao

there seem to be a lot of birdsecs and badgersecs among the mentor cêpans, which tracks, because, well, mentors. interestingly, it seems to be a pattern so far that the birdsec mentors are either some of the most deeply abusive among them (see: rey, sandor, and ethan even though he's an unofficial cêpan), or the most decent parents of them under the circumstances (see: katarina).

john is a hognose (badgery snake) 'i live here' snake lion, and a VERY loud one. he's set on saving the world mainly a) in order to save his People, or b) because it's what they would want. he also believes STRONGLY in snake values as applied to other people, and absolutely cannot grok that anyone would feel differently--he holds back on killing a major enemy because he's worried about killing a friendly acquaintance's Person--and honestly he can be kind of a huge dick about it lmao. he burns HARD at the end of the first series when sarah dies; in the second, he copes by making an entire community into his circle and no longer gives a shit about the rest of the world outside it, including groups who are in similar if not worse circumstances than his community. Horrific War Crimes Ensue!

rex is an everyone double badger and i love him so much. i love him So Much. he is a wonderful example of how to write a morally dubious character whose dodgy qualities interest me instead of making me grit my teeth and Tolerate Them. his arc could have fixed So Much of the Ending's Bullshit and i will be forever mad that they dumped it in the trash

I'm already giggling at this. You are such a loud Bird. "Evaluate an act" is an incredibly Bird lens. I think you might be associating Idealists with rigidity, or with certainty. Healthy Birdpris actually make a lot of space for uncertainty and for being able to say they don't have a good conclusion for whether something specific is Right yet.

And Birdpri systems are complex and built gradually over one's life precisely because there's so much nuance to be had in different situations. Not everything is going to run up against the core axioms of your system (things like "human life is inherently valuable" and "unnecessary suffering is bad").

Idealists can value people too. Birds tend to really value understanding others, it's a highly prioritized form of empathy for us, but not everyone works that way. Someone else might say, "I don't understand but I feel for you," or "I don't understand but I want to help, so you tell me what you need." Other primaries value understanding too, but for a Bird it's the first thing we go for--we feel pretty lost if we don't have some model of what's going on.

secondary-wise, much of the understanding of people thing happens sort of subconsciously--I figure out what's happening w people or how they're thinking or what they really want right 99% of the time, and it's always without really thinking about it. when it comes to other things, though, I usually work like this: I plan a thing/reach a solution for a problem, check w one person I trust about whether it works, then I execute. (2)

You've basically written me a flowchart. You lean heavily on plans and processes. Birdsec.

Having a skill down to the point where it works without you thinking about it doesn't make it not a skill; this is a Rapid-Fire Bird thing, not an Improvisational thing.

Checking your work with someone trusted doesn't make you a Badger; in this case it makes you a very meticulous Bird who's using your resources effectively.

I'm guessing at badger primary (I think just ensuring *everyone* is understood well matters the most to me? so it feels like a better guess than the rest rn), but very uncertain about secondary. feels a little gryffy sometimes but not really? I am anti-charging or plowing ahead--plans keep me sane and calm. I also read through multiple posts about shc cross-verifying traits and analyses and had to feel like I was getting nowhere before I sent this, if that says anything? thank you for this! (3)

Again, the "everyone needs to be understood" thing is a Birdpri trait. Why does everyone need to be understood? So that you and everyone else can factor the full context into your personal decision-making systems, of course! If you care about someone, you have a mental model of their needs and priorities and favorite ice cream flavors, right?

Badger language tends to be more like, "everyone needs to be cared for, their voice heard, not forgotten about--they deserve to get the help they need because they're people." But understanding is so important to Birds because a lot of our identity is often wrapped up in our systems, which we see as a thing that can be understood--and not everyone has this intricately defined worldview that they think about a lot and can explain to other people.

Plans keep you sane and calm and you've been problem-solving your Sorting by doing tons of research and cross-referencing everyone's different writing to come up with a mental model of the system to work with. Also, for all the reading you've been doing from probably a variety of different posters, I was the one you chose to write to--probably because my extremely double Bird writing voice sounds comfortingly familiar.

Based off this story and nothing else, I'm going to guess you have some Bird in your Primary. The assumption that you could change your mom's mind with logical evidence and the great discomfort with the obvious (to you at least) hypocrisy look like a Bird to me.

I've noticed that I tend to think "Lion!" when I see a character passionately arguing or fighting for a certain idea or belief. But of course Birds can be passionate, too, right? Every primary can.

ok, so since doing the @sortinghatchats for the 1st time (I've done way too many bc at this point I simply don't know and I cant move on from this), I have always gotten either bird primary or lion primary — and the same dilemma on the secondaries.

after it, I went on a rampage reading everything I could find on this (think superfocus, yes... I have adhd) and... still don't know. like, the intuitive/decided and the internal/external is what's getting to me.