#badger primary model

Hi Wisteria! I’ve been loving your thoughtful and in-depth analyses and no one else in my life is familiar with the SHC system, so it’s been hard to get some outside perspective. English is not my first language, so please forgive my grammar/awkward phrasing at times. For my sorting, I am thinking Bird primary, though I’ve considered Lion and Badger primaries. I think I am not a snake primary. I have never felt there was an intrinsic moral hierarchy when it comes to people I care about. I still care for them, but at the end of the day, I think we are all living conscious beings who deserve equal treatment, rights, and consideration.

Definitely getting Idealist primary here (Bird or Lion, and I see why you're thinking Bird. Your whole position is well-thought out and well articulated.) I will say that 'all living conscious beings deserve equal treatment' is kind of the Badger mission statement,' but when we're in generalities that big, that thought could just as easily be coming from a Bird with some Badger in their System, a Paragon Lion, or even a really expansive Snake.

I also think prioritizing your own group is often dangerous.

This bit here could describe a Snake or a Badger equally well, depending on how we're defining the "group" we're talking about here.

A Loyalist would probably say that protecting the group is the only thing you know for sure you can do well, and when things get too big and Idealistic, they become unreal, hypothetical, and unsafe. But you seem perfectly fine with that level of big-picture stuff, so I'm happy to say Idealist for you. Also, there's an undercurrent of... suspicion, directed at Loyalists.

I guess I could be a snake that only includes themselves, as I do act in self-preservation a lot of the times

That's a human thing. If someone is *struggling* with turning on the self-preservation, that's a problem, and probably a sign of Burning, or a very immature Badger.

and struggle to trust people.

That can also come from a lot of different places.

I sometimes have an attitude of turning people bad in my head as soon as they act against me, or in a way that reveals their “true character”

Honestly, this kind of sounds like it could be a *Badger* thing?

Because Badgers have opt-out morality, they will often do this thing where you're one of their people, until you break the rules (or the social contract) badly enough. And then you're out, because you're a threat to the rest of the group.

(this is often a projection) and then tend to self-isolate.

Hmmm. And now you're back to being philosophical. Distancing yourself from the emotion of cutting people off. Much more Bird.

I thought bird primary because I do change my ideas about the world and morality quite often and refine my worldview as I discover new ideas. I am also very receptive to scientific ideas and do put logic and reasoned morality above intuition.

You also seem very chill about this whole process, which makes me say Bird again. (Not Lion. The process just tends to be a lot messier and a lot more emotional with Lions.)

However, my tendency to prioritize the perceptions of the group, my need to serve a larger purpose and my desire to be useful to society do feel quite badger-y.

They do. "Prioritize the perceptions of the group," especially is a very Badger thing to say. Badgers also like being useful to the group. But 'need to serve a larger purpose' is a big enough statement that it could work for almost anyone.

What Badger and Bird have in common is that they're both External primaries. What the world thinks is important, and you care about that in a way that Lions and Snakes just kind of don't.

As for lion, I do often act based on heuristics, especially if I haven’t thought out a specific issue yet.

Yeah, this isn't lion. For one thing - you used the word "heuristics." For another, you're stressing about the way you only rely on these "well xyz worked in past" mental shortcuts when you haven't "thought a thought out a specific issue yet." Implication being that, in a perfect world, you would have time to think it out completely every time. (Birds hate having to make snap decisions.)

I can also pretend to be more rational than I am, and tend to live life in automatic mode, by relying on assumptions and facts that sound good. I think I do this less than other people, but that is still a flaw I’ve noticed.

You rely on these "automatic" shortcuts less than other people, but think that you should use them less, and feel bad that you use them at all.

I wonder if you're a Bird primary living in a very Badger community. Or the flip, a Badger living with a bunch of Birds.

As for my secondary, I am a little bit lost. I am very much in my own head and not very action-oriented, so I feel like I lack the data to identify my secondary, or I am burned and just using whatever works. I usually just use stress to motivate action and procrastinate until the last minute.

Oh, the neurodivergent special. Save the non-preferred task for the last minute, and then use the adrenaline that generates to hack your brain into getting it done really fast. Definitely not the only person here doing that.

Childhood: As a kid, I was extremely quiet, sensitive, and introverted. From early on, I remember being very artistic and curious. I would dress up and improvise plays in front of my family. I also loved to draw, write poems, walk in nature, and learn about the world (I was especially fascinated with animals). I also loved to get lost in imaginary worlds, and I remember writing fantasy stories, and believing I had magical powers or was an alien/magical creature.

When I was in school, I remember not connecting very well with my peers. I think people could feel I was different. I was soft spoken, sensitive, and I excelled at school.

I mean so far, *I*could have written this. And I'll take it all into account, but this isn't a system for describing personality, so much as it is one for describing method/motivation.

I didn’t like sports like other boys, and it wasn’t acceptable to hang out with girls, so I just kept to myself. I was already doing good in school, so I just kind of developed that aspect of my identity. I didn’t get along with many other kids and ate lunch with my teachers a lot. I still had friends, but few of them were close.

You're describing constructing your identity in a very deliberate, conscious way, which is more Bird than Badger. It's honestly Bird secondary - like this how you get Actor Bird, deliberately developing one 'version' of yourself because it's useful in certain situation. I'm hearing you enjoyed acting and costumes, and (flash forward to present day) you "pretended" to be more rational than you are. I think you might be an Actor Bird.

It was validating to be so good at academics, and to get teachers’ and parents’ approval. Even if some other kids resented it, I didn’t care because it gave me worth.

This hits every child to some degree, but it hits External primaries very hard. This could describe a young Bird or a young Badger equally well, and now I'm wondering if any of these authority figures especially Birdy or especially Badgery?

Getting good grades, being the perfect child, being “mature for my age” were a big part of my personality.

"Perfect Child" is often an Actor Bird construction. "Mature for your age" is something I usually hear said about young Badgers. Are you maybe a Bird primary, with a very Badger-flavored System? It would fit everything I've read so far.

I also knew deep down I was queer

oh thats brutal

but I eventually became really good at self-editing, and I began to embody a version of me that was acceptable. I was the successful, responsible, smart kid, and I eventually started playing football in high school so that of course meant I was straight. I fully made myself believe the mask I was putting on at that time (badger-like?). In high school, I was tired of being an outsider, so I tried fitting in. I became much more agreeable, sociable, and started becoming more popular. Honestly, it felt good to be appreciated by my peers, and I did play into the character I was projecting. I was still hyper-focused on academics, but for the first time, people actually liked me.

Okay, so I do see why you're saying Badger. Badgers (especially young badgers) can just adopt the group's identity, and lose sight of their own individuality in the process. But I don't think that's what's going on here.

To me, this sounds like it could only be Actor Bird. I know English isn't your first language, so I'm not reading too too much into the word choice... but you do refer to this "Acceptable Self" as a "character," that you "embody." Building this "mask" was a deliberate, conscious process, and it sound like you lived in this persona for a while. Also, not ignoring the fact that... it worked. Wanting to be more popular, and then building a persona that is more popular... that's not something everyone can do.

This actually makes me think of a sorting I wrote for Blackbeard of Our Flag Means Death, and the Actor Bird-specific angst of building a character, spending a little too long in that skin and then feeling that people only like you/you only have worth because of a role you play... and then becoming trapped, because your character is too simple, and it's stifling.

I eventually came to accept my sexuality and had a friendship that made me confront the lack of authenticity of the mask I was putting on. After that, I explored my authentic self while still enjoying my newfound social skills and ability to attract people.

I love that. You built a "popular" persona, and then realized that you din't have to wear it all the time.

I also started getting interested in social justice, philosophy, and politics, which made me question a lot of preconceived notions and ideas I held true about the world.

Oh that's a very Bird primary list of interests right there.

As I became more informed, ethics and morality became a big corner stone of my interactions with the world. I was always interested in finding the “right” way to be, even as a child,

This almost seems like a version of the "book fantasy," which is something I've heard from several Bird primaries at this point: "When I was younger, I wished that there was a magic book that would tell me the 'right' way to act in every situation."

but this meant I could figure out what that meant in more objective terms, and for myself instead of what adults thought. Paradigm shifts were exciting (and still are).

I absolutely love that for you. Bravo.

Family dynamics:

In terms of family dynamics, I always went along to get along. I was checked out emotionally, especially since a lot of family members would say homophobic things, and I never felt completely comfortable with them. I stuck with easy topics and didn’t go into my personal life, and I was content with the image of the golden child they had of me. Even with my parents, whom I love, I never felt I could completely be myself. This led to a lot of secrets and lies to conceal my real self. I was never that rebellious or troublesome to begin with, and I kind of acted like a little adult.

Okay. That makes sense. Sounds like you built a pretty robust Badger primary model that was useful for keeping the peace with your family. (It also sounds just, incredibly necessary.) This explains why a lot of your descriptions of your younger self read as super Badger primary to me: "little adult" "mature for your age" "farming the approval of authority figure."

I also thought a lot of their views were outdated, although I rarely argued with them. My dad had the idea he had to be strict, which was just not the best fit for me. I learned to be extremely secretive, sneaky, and find ways around the rules. I was not very wild to begin with, but I did value my freedom. I just kind of passively agreed, and then did it behind their backs.

Sounds possible you might have a little bit of a snake secondary model?

Although my dad was very sensitive and affectionate, a thing that hurt me a lot was his inability to deal with others’ emotions. I was not allowed to express negative emotions or cry, and he justified this as him being “old school”.

Ah yes. As we know, boys should only have Cool emotions, like Anger and Science. Wondering if your *Dad* might be a Badger primary, with this focus on Tradition and Rules.

This was extremely frustrating to me, as I never understood how tradition could be a valuable reason for anything, or how sticking with old values and refusing to adapt was acceptable.

A little bit of that Bird primary 'make it make sense' thing.

My mom, though more accepting of my sensitivity, was also very critical. She used the status quo to judge what I did, which was also very frustrating. If something I did was weird or impolite, she would use a kind of circular reasoning (this is bad because it’s not socially acceptable, and it’s not socially acceptable because it’s bad), which was also confusing to me.

I love that you can now identify that as classic circular reasoning.

I just wasn’t super interested in developing a strong connection with anyone in my family. I just felt that it was all too arbitrary,

Definitely don't think you're a Loyalist, because I don't think a Loyalist could do a break this clean. There'd be some sense of something... some guilt, some emotion, some residual thing.

and I was more interested in exploring my friendships with people who understood me more deeply. I felt my parents’ (especially dad’s) rules didn’t make any sense, and I wanted my freedom as soon as possible. Since I moved out, our relationship has been a lot better, though I still hide aspects of my life from them.

Very true that just not needing to be around your family 24/27 makes things so much better and easier to deal with.

Problem solving: In terms of problem solving, I like to think I am strategic, and a good contingency planner. I generally understand things well, and how they work together, and am quick to find a solution. When thinking about solving a small problem, I will usually think of the “goal state” first (i.e., what is the ideal I am trying to achieve in this situation). Then I can break down what I need to do. This usually starts with evaluating resources at my disposal (i.e., time, space, material, or mental resources), and what is in the environment. Then, I can come to a solution implicitly by connecting the dots. Finally, I will mentally play out the situation and see if it works, or if there are any roadblocks. This all happens quickly though. Planning is fun, but so is throwing away the plan or finding a clever way to get out of the situation.

What a fantastic breakdown of how to solve a problem. It's also extremely Bird secondary. If it happens fast enough, and you're comfortable enough with it, it looks like it even gets into Rapid-Fire Bird territory (probably why I was getting a little Snake secondary energy up there, Rapid-fire birds can look extremely Snake.)

Am a little bit side-eyeing your decision to call yourself "not very action-oriented" up there. You seem perfectly comfortable with problem-solving to me.

Whenever the unexpected happen, the path becomes really obvious to me. Priorities become salient, and things that are useless fall to the side. It’s more in situations where I’m forced to make a controlled decision that I’m a nervous and indecisive wreck.

Bird primaries HATE making snap decisions.

I can get stressed out if there is missing information, or if the expectations aren’t clear. Travel is especially stressful because of the number of unexpected events that can affect the rest of the trip.

I mean, no one likes missing information or unclear expectations. But it really gets to Birds. (Both primary and secondary honestly. and I'm really thinking that you're a Double Bird.)

With all the information, even if it’s bad news, I can manage and find a solution. But my brain will keep spinning scenarios if I don’t know for sure. Even at school, uncertainty was always worse than bad news.

I hear this. It really goes back to that classic Bird primary fantasy: "but I want to know EVERYTHING"

Not knowing where I stand with someone, with a group, or with a supervisor also makes me nervous. I like knowing what they think of me and what people need from me so I can provide it (or not bother if they dislike me for no reason).

I do think that you have a Badger model, or a Badger flavor to your system. Honestly, you very likely have bOTH. You took in the parts of your parents worldview that made sense to you: it IS useful to know what people want from you, and to know that you aren't making any social faux pas (that way, if someone is acting weird at you, you know it doesn't have to do with you.) But you also have this much more performative Badger model: this is who my parents expect me to be, I don't agree with it, but I can put it on and let it run.

In terms of interpersonal problems, this is where I am most terrible. I am often an absolute doormat and will not vocalize problems and internalize everything. My issue is that I don’t feel confident that I am right and doubt my ability to argue my point and stand up for myself without absolutely ruining the relationship.

Unfortunately, I can't say I'm *surprised,* since you grew up in an environment where arguing was very frowned upon, and it's not like you can win an argument with someone depending on circular arguments and logical fallacies.

You also built a large part of your *identity* around this Perfect Child, Invisible Badger who just does not cause problems. In the language of this system, you built a very intense Badger primary model as a coping mechanism, and now it's run out it's usefulness... but is still hard to punch through, because old models get sticky.

If something bothers me, I will mull over it and eventually let it go because it becomes too late.

Okay, *this* is why you thought there might be some Burning going on. There's this aspect of the way you relate to people that just feels very unsafe, and so you... shut it down.

I think the problems here are uncertainty, and lack of control. When I am in a situation where I know all the elements, have resources, and plenty of time, I am good.

That is absolutely Textbook Double Bird. But (as I'm sure I don't have to tell you)... it's also a fantasy. Very often, you will be lacking in either resources, info, or time. This is why a lot of Double Birds build models, or look like Lion secondaries whenever they don't have time to prep.

If there is an unknown, I can’t do anything.

In the language of this system, that's a Bird primary that's Exploded a little bit, this idea that you can't possibly act if you don't have all the information. It's very Chidi from The Good Place.

In social situations, I can’t control the volatility of relationships or other people, so I just control my reaction.

Pretty much all you can control, so good.

Often, instead of doing something when something is bothering me, I will basically force a paradigm shift to see the situation in a better light, and then move on.

Bird primaries are known for the superpower of just being able to *decide* to like something, or *decide* to be interested in something. That is absolutely what you're doing here. It's *a* way to solve that problem, I guess. But it doesn't seem to make you feel free/powerful.

I kind of have an addiction with the process of solving, and an intolerance for doubt. When I was questioning my career choices, I would reflect on all aspects of my personality, of my goals for the future, I would take endless career quizzes, read the descriptions of jobs over and over, would ask my friends what they thought I should do, etc. I would run in circles, never deciding. I even started deconstructing the philosophy of work, to determine if it was even possible to make a good decision.

Very Bird. Very *exploded* Bird. Of course you went from "what job do I want" to "is the concept of work philosophically moral."

Other questions: My future plans is to live a relatively quiet life out of the public eye, surrounded by books, and having plenty of free time to research or practice my hobbies. I want a stable job, with money so I don’t have to think about those things, and I want to be intellectually stimulated and to be able to add value to the world in the best way I can. I want two dogs, a partner who is fine with my need for space. I also want to live in a walkable city that has an interest in art and culture, and access to nature.

That sounds lovely.

Mostly, I want to be satisfied that I am a good person and be able to do what I want with relative freedom. Now, to be honest, I am very unsatisfied about the real world. It seems so monotonous, and I have always had the secret desire to escape into a fantasy realm. Unfortunately for myself, I don’t believe in the supernatural.

It gets better. There are a lot of cool things out there, and it all gets much less linear once you leave school. I would probably say though - knowing you and your tendencies - maybe a little less focus on being a good person (because that's a can of worms) and maybe a little more on doing things that are a net positive to the world around you.

I feel most powerful when I surprise myself. I once prepared for a grad school interview by reading hundreds of questions and preparing answers for them. When I practiced with a friend, it just came out forced and clunky, and I found myself trying to repeat exactly what I had written. I had accepted I just wasn’t going to get in. When I went to the actual interview though, I just went off script and took risks. I told personal anecdotes while maintaining the image I wanted to project to them, which got me an offer.

You are absolutely a Rapid-Fire bird, which is very cool.

When I speak up in class, when I stand up for myself, when I make impulsive decisions, and especially when I do something scary, I also feel this way.

I like it. Lean into that Lion secondary energy. I know a lot of Birds, especially Double Birds, find it extremely helpful.

I also feel powerful when I feel competent. For instance, when I fix issues at work, when I get good grades, when I manage to problem solve in a clever way.

All of this is very Bird secondary. And honestly, a very effective-sounding Bird secondary.

In high school and during the pandemic, I also was obsessed with personality systems and would read and introspect for hours trying to determine my type. But there was never an answer satisfying enough because the process of introspection was the addictive part of it, and even a sliver of doubt would send me into another rabbit hole. There is a kind of poking at it until it becomes mush effect. I literally made excel sheets with my results on different quizzes, over multiple weeks, to see if there was a pattern. By focusing so much on figuring out who I am, and the intricacies of my own psyche, I just end up losing the big picture and not being able to contextualize the information I’ve gathered. Sometimes it even becomes hard to identify anything since I’m focusing on such a tiny part of myself, and the human mind is so kaleidoscopic and changing, so it stops making sense and just becomes a big blob of behaviors and thoughts. I’ve had a hard time figuring out my MBTI and enneagram because of this as well.

I have been there before, trying to navigate the difference between what is useful introspection and what is navel-gazing indulgence. I accept that people are incredibly complicated, and any categorization system is inherently imperfect. I also accept that words to describe your inner workings are extremely helpful, and honestly, necessary. One thing I like about the system is the cleanness of it. So much of it has to do with cutting through the noise and the *presentation* we are presented, and just going - okay, how do we work, why do we work?

Thank you to Lorangutan for such an excellent submission. If you'd like a Sorting of your very own, commissions are open on my ko-fi. :D

[spoilers ahead for both lorien legacies and its sequel series!]

there is a LOT of ground to cover here, and i am mostly going to limit myself to sorting characters and themes from the first series, but my initial notes are:

probably one of the biggest overarching themes of the series is toxic birdsec, and the harm it can do to every aspect of a society or a person's life--on both a systematic level and an individual one--right down to their basic humanity. by extension it also goes into similarly fucked up lion and bird primary used as weapons and tools of abuse, and how they interplay with each other.

a large part of this stems from setrákus ra being The Worst Fucking Lion Bird Ever to Live, lmao. he's an interesting example of birdsec interplaying with cannibal badger, and also of a lion bird who's a cheetah in that he uses systems as tools to manipulate people instead of actually believing them. he hands out toxic systems like candy while peppering them with outright lies, and blithely admits that even the one that he's put centuries into building--mogadorian progress, and the great book--is at its heart just a ruse to run his cult on. the truth he pretends to worship and champion isn't external, objective truth--it's an extension of him. he is the ultimate truth. and the only truth he believes in is his cause, which is that he has the right and ability to own, make use of, and do whatever he sees fit with everything in existence. everyone and everything that could possibly be a shiny or a tool belongs to him.

one of the other overarching themes is toxic badger primary and secondary--cannibal badgering AHOY--as well as toxic lion primary, and it is a great deal less intentional than the bird cautionary tale part lmao

five is a bird snake with deeply toxic lion primary and bird secondary models, one of which he picked up after getting involved with a cult, and one of which he's had since his abusive birdsec guardian started amputating his masks by trying to apply actor bird to them. :') his brand of birdsplode and snakeburn make him horribly, horribly vulnerable to the cult, especially combined with focused, one-on-one gaslighting and manipulation from setrákus himself, and he has to burn his bird right to a crisp to break away from it. i am very biased and i have so much to say about my boy, but i plan to go in depth about this later

there are a LOT of lionsecs among the loric garde kids. the only surviving ones who aren't lionsecs are marina's badger and five's snake (the latter of which is heavily villainized, lol); number one is either a lionsec or a snakesec, maggie is either a birdsec or a badgersec, and we don't really see enough of hannu to be sure, but my guess is badgersec. in context, whatever these books are saying here i am not sure i like it lmao

this stands in contrast to the non-garde allies, minus adam, who end up being Part of the Gang. sam and lexa are birdsecs, and sarah and malcolm are both badgersecs.

speaking of adam, he is a lion snake with a cool, calculated double bird performance/model, who has been waiting all his life for a chance to go Absolutely Feral. there are a lot of ways in which he's a real shithead, which track given his life and circumstances up to then but are also real 😬 sometimes, but like, good for him. go ape shitt, kid

nine is an awful, AWFUL double lion who models/performs the worst parts of badger primary; he also uses lionsec stereotypes and methods to misdirect people, so that he can hurt, gaslight, prey on, and abuse them. it's genuinely interesting how he does it, and i could go on for a long time about it, but it's also Infuriating because the authors really want you to love him for being a ~charming jerk with a heart of gold,~ so that is for another post. in the sequel series he also picks up a nasty posthumous birdsec model from sandor to gleefully torture children with so lmfao

there seem to be a lot of birdsecs and badgersecs among the mentor cêpans, which tracks, because, well, mentors. interestingly, it seems to be a pattern so far that the birdsec mentors are either some of the most deeply abusive among them (see: rey, sandor, and ethan even though he's an unofficial cêpan), or the most decent parents of them under the circumstances (see: katarina).

john is a hognose (badgery snake) 'i live here' snake lion, and a VERY loud one. he's set on saving the world mainly a) in order to save his People, or b) because it's what they would want. he also believes STRONGLY in snake values as applied to other people, and absolutely cannot grok that anyone would feel differently--he holds back on killing a major enemy because he's worried about killing a friendly acquaintance's Person--and honestly he can be kind of a huge dick about it lmao. he burns HARD at the end of the first series when sarah dies; in the second, he copes by making an entire community into his circle and no longer gives a shit about the rest of the world outside it, including groups who are in similar if not worse circumstances than his community. Horrific War Crimes Ensue!

rex is an everyone double badger and i love him so much. i love him So Much. he is a wonderful example of how to write a morally dubious character whose dodgy qualities interest me instead of making me grit my teeth and Tolerate Them. his arc could have fixed So Much of the Ending's Bullshit and i will be forever mad that they dumped it in the trash

Hello, everyone! @wisteria-lodge asked the shc community if we would like to help answering some asks, and a number of us volunteered, so this is a reply to one of those asks. I am excited to give this a go!

To the question: The easy answer is, no, not necessarily. Birds can incorporate the ideas of different primaries into their systems (similar to how a Lion can have Snake ideals - one of their causes is protecting/caring for their loved ones) without having that primary as a model. My system has a lot of Badger to it, but I wouldn't say I model Badger. I believe that all people are people and that all people deserve certain things, and I love belonging to a group/groups of people (which is probably a person thing - everyone wants to belong to some degree/in some way), but I'm not motivated by those communities. I learn from them! I process what I hear and see if I vibe with it, and I decided if I want to incorporate it into my system or not, but I don't make exceptions for my communities - unlike what I sometimes do for the people who are a core part of my Snake model. (I don't model Badger, so my best point of reference is the Snake model. Sorry about that anon. 😅)

My primary model feels almost seperate from my primary? In the way that other-primary-flavored ideals within my system don't. I like to think of it as if my primary is a main, larger island and that my model is a smaller island connected to the main island by bridges. Basically, if it feels somewhat removed from yourself and how you usually make your decisions - it's probably a model. Models for me tend to be the exception to the rule, while my primary is the rule. Flavored ideals are more flexible then models (for me at least) because they're part of my system so I can somewhat easily edit them.

For context @wisteria-lodge has asked members of the SHC community to help with answering asks. I am a lion primary with a badger model and a bird secondary with a badger model.

This is the million dollar question anon! It's very hard to differentiate a lion with badger values from a badger primary! And as a lion with badger values I will say that I sometimes react to situations the way a badger primary would. I think the key way to differentiate is why they believe serving other people is the highest form of goodness. Does this belief stem from their community (eg I get a lot of joy/comfort in serving the people in [insert community here]) or does it stem from an ideal (for example, my badger-like beliefs stem from the concept of dharma and duty to other people). Is the act itself what drives your friend to serve other people, or are they driven by abstract concepts related to service like duty or morality? From the way you have phrased this ask I'm guessing it's the latter (lion modeling exploded badger)

As for the secondary part what you're describing definitely sounds like exploded badger secondary or an exploded badger model.

(I was gonna hold off on posting this until I was absolutely certain about the sorting, because sorting this show is like pulling teeth. But then last night I had a dream about Lila trying to ruin Marinette’s birthday with the usual lesbian subtext you would expect from two girls who hate each other and when I woke I had this second ask in my inbox so I figure the universe is tryna tell me something)

This is a hard one. There are some things we have to consider with Miraculous Ladybug. (warning this gets long)

1. It’s inconsistent with its characters on a good day. 

2. The creators are very much pushing an unhealthy-keep the peace and be nice to everyone including bullies and toxic people because they are people to-Badger primary narrative.

3. While it’s not unhealthy like the primary, the show also pushes a Badger secondary narrative. They like their Badger secondaries and what show wants to teach is that Pure Badgers are the best sorting possible. 

So it becomes hard to see what is an actual character moment, and what’s the creators using a character as a mouthpiece. Marinette gets fucked over by this because the show deliberately has her do things wrong so they can enforce lessons. This is especially hard with Adrien because he is the show’s golden boy favorite which means he does everything right and almost always spouts out the lesson of the day. It’s safe to say that if Marinette and Adrien aren’t already Badgers they have badger primary models. Adrien because showrunners, Marinette because Adrien’s peddling it to her.

(I wanna make it very clear that I’m not insulting Badger primaries in this post, but unhealthy Badger primaries where bad people get away with bad things just because they are people)

So MARINETTE DUPAIN-CHENG/LADYBUG...I think she’s a burnt Bird. She can’t be naturally a Badger because she has to constantly be told by people to act like a Badger. Give Chloe a million chances even if she bullied you for years and is horrible to everyone around her and has no desire to change. Don’t expose Lila for being a liar who gives out false promises and also wants to destroy Ladybug and teams up with Hawkmoth. 

It also explains her unhealthy Snake primary she has for Adrien. A lot of the time her motivation, her why, will be because Adrien! Why does she get Adrien to come with them on the trip to New York? Because if not he’ll be left alone with Lila and she’s jealous! And also I guess because Adrien should get to do fun things. Why did she choose Adrien to be Aspik? Because she’s in love with him and he’s perfect! But that’s not her, it doesn’t work for her. Part of that is the world telling her if she ever tries to pursue Adrien it’ll backfire in her face, but also it’s not natural for her. She fell for Adrien and because her primary is burnt she placed meaning in him, building a Snake primary for him-and then a drowned Badger primary model once he started lecturing her about it. 

And yes I do think her Badger primary model is drowned. She gives her all to everything, and is always convinced that doing anything seemingly selfish is bad (which is weird because the narrative also has Alya constantly trying to convince her to be selfish and date Adrien). She won’t let herself confess to Adrien because that will literally lead to the end of the world. She also gives up trying to pursue Adrien because she wants him to be happy with Kagami. She gives up a job opportunity to help save Paris (which was the right choice but doesn’t disprove my point). She is told by Mme. Bustier that she has to be an example and that she has to stay calm and keep the peace and give everything for other people. She is slowly over the series starting to drown. 

Now admittedly she could be a burnt Lion originally, we don’t ever see her before her burning. But, the reason why I say Bird is because she seems more eager for people to tell her what is right and what is wrong. What is true? Burnt Lions, I can say from experience, don’t like as much to be told what is right and wrong. They want to know of course, but there will be a part of them that is unhappy and when they are told by other people they’ll be more sad about it if it doesn’t gel with their gut. It’ll just be another reason why they’re wrong and they’ll stay burnt longer. On the other hand, Marinette is eager to be told what is true from people, she wants to know and when people tell her she takes it in and immediately follows it. I say she’s a burnt bird because she doesn’t trust herself to make the right decision unless it’s black and white, akuma v. hero. The snap judgements she makes are because she’s burnt and therefore she flounders when unable to ask what she should do and just does because if she thinks she’ll come to the wrong decision. So impulsive decision time. (Miraculous Ladybug is a really depressing show if you think of Marinette as a real person)

Or she’s a burnt Lion and I just went on a tangent for no reason. 

 Now you’d think think that sorting out her secondary would be easier, but NO. The only thing easy about her secondary is that she is definitely not a Lion secondary. 

Now she definitely has a two models. One of her models is a Badger obviously. She takes on projects and works herself to death. She also takes on a caring role usually and works as a leader. She manages to charm people almost instantly and then she has them on her side for basically forever. I only say this is a model because her plans never really include other people or calling in favors. 

But now I have to decided if she is a rapid fire Bird or a Snake originally and which one is her model. I wanna say that she’s a Snake originally. Her plans are usually incredibly under the fly. She’ll just look around the area, see what she has to work with, and then immediately have the plan. It’s not usually based off of prior knowledge (although that happens a fair amount to). She also does things like steal phones and bicycles a fair amount (classic Snake traits) and has on more than one occasion lied her way out of a situation. 

Now her Bird model is not unimportant. I say she isn’t originally a bird because she never has a back up plan. Plan A fails and she has to freak out for a bit before she makes a new plan on the fly. Her bird model is something she used to play with before she became a hero I think. She gained many skills in the art world-especially fashion-, baking, gaming, etc. just for the fun of it. Then she became a hero and used that planning skill to good work. How do I defeat the akuma and convince Chat Noir that I’m not Marinette? Obviously I’ll shrink myself down into many versions of me wearing all the miraculouses so I can climb in the kwamis’ mouths, take Chat Noir’s ring from him, get sucked into the kwami pack so I can break it from the inside with the Cat miraculous, then I’ll make an illusion of me as Ladybug getting the akuma and me as Multimouse taking off my miraculous because I’m just such a goof and then when Chat leaves I’ll capture the real akuma and transform back. 

Compare that to Chat’s plan of, say the school is a elementary school. 

But honestly it could go either way.

Adrien is much easier to sort compared to Marinette’s spastic characterization.

ADRIEN AGRESTE/CHAT NOIR has a strong Badger primary model, which is hilarious because he sucks at it. The boy is actually a Snake primary just like his father (he ALSO has an unhealthy primary but we’ll get to that). Lila lying to his class-his community-and giving them empty promises? He doesn’t care, he wants to keep the peace! He’s gonna be nice to her and try to sway her the side of good from the sidelines-wait what’s this? Lila made his friend Kagami jealous which caused her to be akumatized and also tried to get Ladybug killed? What an outrage! He’s not gonna try to be friends with her anymore! Wait, Lila got Marinette expelled through bullshit?! How dare she! Now he’s going to force her to take it all back so Marinette can be happy!

He doesn’t get upset when his community is threatened, he only gets mad when his people are threatened. In Chat Blanc he is forced to choose between killing his father or killing Ladybug (who is his girlfriend because it’s another timeline), which is a classic Snake problem. Chat doesn’t think about how if he kills his father instead he’ll save all of Paris, he just can’t decide and ends up destroying the world with his indecision. “Our love [destroyed the world]” he says to Ladybug. That’s very Snake primary and seems to me like an unhealthy Snake primary. His dream is to move away to an island alone with Ladybug, which says something about the differences between them. Marinette’s dream is have a large family with Adrien. 

His secondary is harder because I can’t tell if he has a Badger secondary or a Lion secondary. The thing is the way the shows treats the different identities is that Ladybug and Adrien are the masks for Marinette and Chat (I did not do this for Marinette though). That means that a more accurate reading for Adrien’s sorting should theoretically be looking at Chat. Chat definitely has a Lion secondary. His first instinct is always attack first attack attack attack. Most of the time the reason the battle drags on is because Chat is jumping in too soon. When he doesn’t jump in it’s because he’s pissed at Ladybug for rejecting him. Also, the one time we see him do a plan, the plan is dress up in a makeshift suit and attack the enemy. 

But he definitely has a Badger secondary model. How will he make Lila stop antagonizing Marinette? He’ll act like he’s her friend and let her model with him. How does he try to impress his father, by taking a bunch of classes and modelling for him. It’s a model though, one I think he built after his mother “disappeared” to try and cheer up his father. 

I know you probably wanted more so rapid fire:

ALYA CESAIRE is a Lion primary who makes impulsive decisions and only doesn’t when the plot needs her to. She’s got an immature Bird secondary as well, immature as in she gains a piece of information and her Lion primary then makes her go crazy over it. 

CHLOE BOURGEOIS is snake primary who cares about herself and those closest to her until she doesn’t, and a Lion secondary who charges in because she’s stupid with a shitty Snake secondary model she adopted from her parents.

GABRIEL AGRESTE/HAWKMOTH is a Snake primary who cares only about his wife, sometimes Natalie, and sometimes Adrien. Also a Bird secondary who makes big elaborate plans that always fail.

NATALIE SANCOEUR/MAYURA is a Snake primary who does things for Adrien and Gabriel because she loves them, and another Bird secondary who has a very nice skillset and and helps Gabriel with his plans. She does also have a Badger secondary because she works very hard and uses herself as a weapon, but it’s not her go to. 

(yes I know I didn’t sort Nino or Lila, but Nino is practically a non-character and Lila might have a Lion primary and I don’t wanna have to put much more thought into this post. Maybe later)

so...

Marinette Dupain-Cheng/Ladybug - Burnt Bird primary (maybe burnt Lion) with a drowned Badger model and an unhealthy Snake model for Adrien/Snake secondary with a Bird model (possibly switched) and a (possibly unhealthy) Badger model

Adrien Agreste/Chat Noir - Snake primary/Lion Secondary, double Badger model

Alya Cesaire - Lion primary/immature Bird secondary

Gabriel Agreste/Hawkmoth - Snake primary/Bird secondary

Natalie Sancoeur/Mayura - Snake primary/Bird secondary, Badger secondary model

Chloe Bourgeois - Snake primary/Lion secondary

I'm not about cause than community, but I don't know I could go it alone.

I don't really know how that fits with my Badger primary model cause I don't really understand it very well. What I do know though is that it would take a ten times bigger disagreement with my family before I'd consider cutting myself off from them. They are home and I don't know that'll I'd find anyone else that would love me how they do. (Not that I don't think anyone could love me, it's just that I don't know how to find them.)

If I am indeed a Snake, I modeled Badger HARD for “my people’s” communities when I was young and the model burned as I got older. 

would it be okay to ask you to help sort me? i have no clue what i am. i took the test twice, at first i got lion-something (i don’t remember), now i got snake-bird. i’m not like, hyperfamiliar w/ the system, so i apologize in advance if i’m rambling about something unimportant, or leaving out details that would help pinpoint my type. also if i’m just completely incomprehensible. or if this is too personal? Like, feel free to ignore if this come across too trauma-dumpy, or to skip and delete if this is too much to read?

Well, someone’s Burnt.

I understand that you’re essentially doing a service for free on the internet and you don’t really owe me anything.

I do this because it’s interesting, and it’s fun. I think it’s good for me, and I’ve definitely helped some people. But your focus on *owing* things is... kind of interesting. I wonder if you might not have some strong ideas of authority and transaction in your life? Maybe some Badger? Just a thought. 

ever since i was little, i was very. uh. idealistic? very into social justice, very much root-for-the underdog, i even had kind of sad fantasies of being some sort of revolutionary martyr as as child, “like, man, if i could die in a way that means i’m remembered (and that my life meant something)  and sends a message, that’d be cool.” 

...honestly, I think every Idealist (especially every Lion, good lord) has had the Joan of Arc fantasy. I get it. There’s something very easy about the idea of dying for a cause you are 100% sure is correct. I remember being about 15, and being hit right between the eyes by this bit from one of my favorite books - 

“It was not the homecoming that made my sprits lift, but the fact that I still had a job to do for Ambrosius... I believe that all the time I was was half hoping that I would be asked to die for him. I was very young.” 

the reality is, i’ve dealt with quite a bit of hardship since i was little and this overfocus on the issues of society was a fun way for me to displace the anguish and rage i was feeling regarding my own personal situation. I think internally I felt really helpless to do anything, i was being dismissed, i had absolutely no one help or understand me in any meaningful way. 

Well then you’re way ahead of where I was. 

I mean you’re completely correct. You have power fantasies when you feel powerless, because you feel powerless. I even think they’re a pretty helpful and risk-free coping strategy in the moment. The first step to getting yourself out of a bad situation is imagining yourself powerful. 

even with people i held close, i didn’t really realize i could talk about what i was going through, i was kind of there to be silly and fun.

Ooooh. Stuck in a ‘bit.’ This could be some Actor Bird, but I don’t know. Something about the way it’s phrased is making me think Badger. “I was there to be silly and fun” = my purpose [to the group] was to be silly and fun [and I am only my purpose.] Have we got an Invisible Badger secondary? 

when it comes to causes, it eventually struck me that i wasn’t fueled by any real feeling of “purpose”, i was just plain old sad and projected it onto literally ~anyone~ who was also sad because i thought focusing on myself is bad. 

Well. Congratulations on working though it. You must have done some serious work, to be able to lay it out this well and this succinctly. I am very aware of this coping strategy - focus on other people, all day everyday. That way 1) you get to feel good about yourself 2) you have an easy way to make other people back of your case 3) you don’t have to think about or deal with your own issues.  

Younger you sounds so Lion, and older you seems to have latched onto some pretty toxic Badger Primary talking points. I think this might be a Burned Lion story. You lost your “feeling of purpose” and latched on to a set of external beliefs that are being branded as “good.” 

and when i tried to put action to my beliefs, i wouldn’t like, measure my rage and my actions to be within the bounds of that same “right and wrong” i was otherwise so concerned with; i learnt through some pretty tough experiences that there are people who are beyond reasoning, so i’d fight fire with fire all the damn time, and that made sense to me -

Hmm. Out of control Lion secondary? Something beneath a “silly and fun” model that is just clawing its way out? Or were you just living in a loud (slightly exploded) Lion primary? 

but a lot of people reacted as if i was out of control, even people within the communities i identified so strongly, that i was under the impression would understand why and what i’m doing. that, uh, hurt, although i understood where they were coming from and would adjust my behavior.

So your communities (that you thought would understand you) actually thought you went too far, and freaked out. This is going to hurt no matter who you are, but this focus on communities, and correctly gauging vs incorrectly gauging the community is saying Badger to me. And since it’s about problem solving, it’s saying more Badger secondary.. 

To further illustrate my Savior Complex, i’d often find myself in friendships and relationships with people I felt were not treated correctly. it wasn’t built just on pity, i didn’t necessarily force friendships with people i just didn’t mesh with, but having been through A Lot, I felt like I could only connect with other people who been through A Lot. 

I would normally connect the term “Savior Complex” to a Lion primary, but the way you’re talking about it here actually feels more Badger. The focus on “fairness,” the need-basing, this way of dividing the world into ‘people who’ve been though it’ and ‘people who haven’t’ is kinda Badger. I’m thinking this might be what ever system you latched onto when your Lion Burned... because it doesn’t sound good for you, or like it made you very happy. 

One of them was the straw that broke the camel’s back though and really made me reevaluate what the hell am I doing. I was deeply scrutinized while i continuously gave myself away for this person. if i tried to set a boundary or question anything, i’d have the script turned around on me, and because i would pride myself on being so open minded, i’d really let whatever they accused me of doing live in my head rent free. 

Ouch, yeah that’s a Badger secondary. That’s *exactly* how a Badger secondary gets taken advantage of. You want to help, because that’s what Badgers do (and struggle with boundaries, because that’s what Badger’s do.) And this is a very chilling description of how Courtier Badger mirroring, which can be so joyful and wonderful... can also flip around and hurt you. Because if you reflect what people want to see back to them, by internalizing it... yeah. You can end up with all kinds of gunk that another secondary might have just disregarded.

it eventually made me feel like everything is always my fault, and that i  should just keep giving more, and trying harder. it’s only when i gave so much i basically couldn’t function anymore did i leave, and i was painted as The Bad Guy.

You were a Badger secondary who was taken advantage of. 

i’m now in this weird space where i still deal a lot with guilt, but i’m trying to not engage in it. I'm really distancing myself from anything that isn’t focused on healing and improving myself, causes included. My first priority should be being happy, and comfortable, and satisfied, and safe.  

YES. Correct. Won’t be any use to anyone (or any Cause either) if you’re not those things first. 

and also realizing that sometimes doing what i think is right will make people think i’m in the wrong, and that doesn’t mean that i am, and that truths can even co-exist.  i got kind of meaner, but also take losses easier and don’t try to push things that don’t work anywyay. 

You sound healthier. And you sound healthier in a Lion primary way, more than a Badger primary way. Little more mean, little more of a loner (and cool with it), little more of “that sounds like a you problem,” “what is true for me might not be true for you.” 

i do kind of still yearn for someone to understand me 

That’s being human. 

but not to sound like an ass but most people give me a headache. Too much black and white, too much group-thinking,

You’ll be okay, and people will also look better after you’ve healed a little. It sounds to me like you were probably in some pretty toxic Badger spaces, so of course these traits are too much for you right now. 

not enough communication (i don’t get social cues whatsoever) etc. I act friendly enough because there’s no real way to survive as an island on your own but it is exhausting lol

Your secondary sounds like it was severely, severely burned, in a burnt out kind of way. And right now, you are doing what you need to do to let it heal. And next time you’ll do better. Your communication and your boundaries will be better, and you won’t have to spend all your time being the fun person who never asks for anything.