#age dynamics

Just for funsies, if you like writing/reading NaruHina fics with age gaps, which one these dynamics is your favourite?

You like older woman/younger man pairings over any other age dynamics.

Please don't feel like you need to apologize for being excited about something. It's the best thing about life IMHO.

This is the second bit of the question, but I'm taking it first. (Asked in response to this post.)

Thai Pronouns & Honorifics when Seme/Uke is Age Flipped 

So this concerns personal pronouns in Thai when the uke/seme dynamic is age flipped. So the older boy (who normally carries the linguistic power/dominance) is the uke (or romantic submissive character). In other words, we are talking about a conflict between linguistic D/s and relationship D/s.

KongpobArthit - SOTUS

MarkKit - Gen Y

MingKit - 2 Moons franchise

SoloGui - Oxygen

SibGene - Lovely Writer

LeonPob - Don’t Say No

This involves delving into the fact that when Kong and Arthit speak to each other, despite the fact that he is older, Arthit uses pom for I when we expect him to use phi.

On the other hand, Gui usually use phi with his seme under similar age dynamics and relationship circumstances. So Gui is linguistically acting like a polite seme (Dean in UWMA, for example). Kit uses rude pronouns, so he is linguistically acting like a rude seme (Pick in Puppy Honey, for example).

I could only check SOTUS S as SOTUS is off Netflix in my territory and hasn't been uploaded back to GMMTV's YouTube. So I'm not sure if this holds during KongArthit's initial meeting and warring romance.

In the opening sequence of SOTUS S (them waking up together and getting ready for work) Arthit used:

pom and (of all things) káo.

I want to say I'm wrong on the káo because that is very odd for Arthit's character (lovey-dovey and mostly quite girly/cutsie). He also used khun for you at Kong which is super formal, although he mostly just calls Kong by name, and in an annoyed tone. So he's kinda all over the place.

Kong stuck with phi & P'Arthit for you, and pom for I. Which is normal for a younger polite uke character (like Pharm). So Kong is sticking to polite age language rules (and not letting seme influence him).

I think the fact that they both use pom is more an aspect that despite their flipped power dynamic across the age barrier, Arthit is way more agro and tsundere than Gui. (But why not just drop to rude pronouns then, like tsundere Kit?) One would be tempted to say Arthit should push the phi under those circumstances but I think Arthit's attitude is more: I don't even need the phi. It is odd though, you're right. Maybe there's a bit of Arthit still holding Kong at arms length by not using guu/mung with him (which he does use with his friends)? Guu/mung carries with it a certain amount of invited informality that might be seen as encouragement by a younger seme. It's interesting.

I've described Kong and Arthit as coming off as somewhat ace and I think maybe their linguistics are a bit that way too?

Solo/Gui are also skewed tho. Gui refers to himself as phi but pretty much everyone knows that the power dynamic is actually the opposite. Solo makes that clear regularly because he uses the pet name Guitar without honorifics (once he attains permission) constantly, which a younger boy would normally get swatted for as disrespectful. And the way Solo says that pet name is like it's this gift he's been given by Gui. It's clear Solo knows to value the fact that he has been handed the romantic power, and the ability to drop honorifics. But he sticks to pom for I and never crosses that line.

These two are just way more comfortable and settled into their roles and dynamics from the get go. Also Gui is a VERY caring and polite but also occasionally parental and strict for a uke, for all he's a total softie he does act older with Solo regularly. So for all that this is a pretty firm seme/uke dynamic there's flexibility to it around acts of service. Stil Gui’s use of phi for I with Solo probably ties to the fact that he may be uke but he still feels older and wiser than Solo. 

Kit uses rude informal with Ming in 2 Moons 2. Ming uses pom for I and phi for you, as if he were younger uke, during his attempts at courting. When they are cuddling or confessing later on in the series (Ep 9 for example), Ming drops the P' and just calls him Kit, no honorific, while still using pom for himself. So that's mixed informality and more what I would expect from a younger seme.

I guess there is at lot of linguistic meat to be had around younger seme's coupled to older ukes in Thai BL, because there is a clear honorific struggle resulting.

I mean Lovely Writer has a whole series of scripted chats about this. Since Sib is clearly an extremely dominant seme what he calls Gene is of deep concern to him. He refuses to use P'Gene (when they meet as adults) mostly because it's too submissive for what Sib wants from Gene. So he defaults to adult very formal Khun in order to cover his ultimate desire (and linguistic conundrum). This also makes Gene seem a whole generation older than Sib, though. And people around them find it weird, especially as Sib doesn’t do this with an other older boys - only gene. 

They jump through a ton of pronoun hoops and honorifics during the course of their relationship as a result. They settle into the same pattern as MingKit in the end, with Gene using rude informal guu/mueng and Sib using Gene's name with no honorific and pom for I.

Leon + Pob's Linguistic Submission

These two have a ton of dialogue that has to do with use of phi. In ep 10 over the phone, Leon says if Pob uses just Pob (not Phi) as the “I” pronoun when they are talking, Leon will melt. Pob then does this, right before hanging up. Later in the same ep, Pob does it again when he’s begging Leon not to go to the dinner. That causes Leon to entirely crumble. 

Pob is older but acting linguistically younger to Leon, and Leon (the seme) finds this unbearably CUTE. Part of the cuteness is that Pob is doing what Leon wants and giving in to his seme-ness it is a kind of linguistic submission. An older uke giving in linguistically = giving in emotionally = giving in physically. But in their relationship this is centering all around concepts of permission. (Leon is young but he is ALSO more experienced.) The moment Pob dropped the phi, all bets are off. It was pretty inevitable they'd end up in bed together and they both knew it from that point on. 

What’s important to not is that while Leon begs Pob to drop the phi when speaking, he himself never drops it. He always calls him P'Pob. Leon wants Pob to be less formal with him, but won't do it back because that moves Leon from informal to rude. He can't be informal in that way as a younger character. It's a disregard of status which, I think because of they also have a rich/poor (connected/orphaned) dynamic, would be particularly egregious for these two. 

Real world note

Fluke (Pharm) calls Ohm (Dean) P'Ohm even though Fluke is a year older. The actors decided to do this between themselves, presumably partly based on personality and partly placed on the roles they played in Until We Meet Again. They found it easier to keep that dynamic on the promo circuit and have continued since.

Thus strict adherence to phi/nong based exclusively on age is not mandated IRL. Friends/lovers/coworkers/etc.. can alter language for social/cultural or interpersonal reasons. You can hear Santa & Earth on the Studio Wabi Sabi YouTube channel monkey around with this a lot. Earth is much older than Santa, but they very rarely use phi/nong.

That said, both Earth and Fluke are out, so that could also come into play linguistically. Argh, so complicated.

Explaining Thai to the Casual BL Watcher - It Has Registers

Linguistic Fun In Thai BL - Pronouns & Honorifics

BL Actors & Age Dynamics

Thai Pronouns & Honorifics when Seme/Uke is Age Flipped

Thai Honorifics Between Ages in BL and real life

I’m not a leader 

I don’t know most things 

And I’m definite not wise enough for that

I don’t want to be a leader 

But to my little brother 

And his adorable friends 

And to my younger cousins 

I am ... something, I guess, as the oldest

Because I’m not an adult 

I don’t carry the authority and judgement adults wield  

I’m one of them and we fight the same battles to an extent

But I am older

So I can give them the support they sometimes need 

And I can give it to them for free 

Without wanting their obedience in return 

And they look to me, not for guidance, but they do look to me

And I do want to set a good example 

But like I said, I don’t know ... almost everything really

I know more than the climate-denying adults though 

I’ve been thinking a lot about age and generation dynamics 

And I understand that my age doesn’t give me wisdom, not really

Wisdom comes from experience, empathy, and unfortunately, pain 

And everyone has their own experiences and has their own pain 

The best thing I can give 

That anyone can give 

To the younger ones I think

Is freedom to find their own meaning in their experiences 

The support to be empathetic of others’ lives

The encouragement that they can get through pain 

I’m in this liminal space 

Where there’s nothing adult about me 

But there are so many little kids 

That want to see some kind of role model in me 

I know I’m a shitty role model though 

As much as I know I should be braver 

But if I can encourage these kids to look for answers themselves

To think for themselves 

To participate in democracy themselves 

To look for kindness and justice themselves