Side log for (mainly) Trojan War shiz. Now including whatever myth/ classical works that Iâm on.
Here is where I get high, but still be more specific than my main
Tags: #myart (art stuff), #never pass a man in armor (characterâs armory design), #iliad the manga (random iliad comic page), #iliad au (focusing on my own au/ writing), #random thoughts, #headcanons
Iâll also post doodles, designs or whatever here
Ask box is opened so feel free to ask/ share anything with me hehe
Doodle requests closed for now (Christmas doodle request is also closed)
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As we read in the story, Achilles was shot with an arrow by Paris. As he was dying in the temple of Apollo Thymbraeus, he asked that Polyxena be sacrificed at his tomb when Troy was conquered. His son Pyrrhus, whom he had by Deidamia, fulfilled this wish. Later, in his homeland, as an insult to Apollo he set up altars to his father in the godâs Delphic temple and began to offer sacrifices to him there. [...]
The First Mythographer of the Vatican, 137. Translation by Ronald E. Pepin.
I think this is the first time I've seen this version⌠Neoptolemus really deserves the title of Winner of The Daddy Issues Competition.
Imo if Nolan wants to go with âthe war is badâ thing
He could just replace the Atreides with Neoptolemus. It's already in the text.
-Embodiment of toxic masculinity with warmongering vibes, esp in later Roman works
- He treats women bad (Andromache, canonically a concubine, and Hermione too if he wants to bend)
- Brutally murder the civilians and innocence (tha babei honey the babei)
- He is there directly or indirectly in those scenes that have the Atreides. He has more reasons to aura farm in the gate than Agamemnon. Menelaus' party is to send his daughter to him to wed.
- And the best part, he could be the very mistake that comes back to bite Odysseus in the ass.
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Diomedes picking up sticks and getting into brawls before his father ever leaves for Thebes
Diomedes picking up a wooden sword pretending to be his father beating the 50 thebans at the age of 5, diomedes having so much energy that he starts begging the people around him to fight with him, they try to be soft with him bc hes a kid but he doesnt want them to hold back, he gets better and he asks every day when he can finially pick up a bronze sword; he plays catching Boar with a little spear they give him, eventually he goes out hunting rabbits with some other that keep an eye on him
He gets older and picks up real weapons at least, and the one to teach him would push him gently and challenge him, and he'd push back twice as hard, exhilarating in the fight and relishing the rush of it, becoming so much more like his father than he'll ever know
He is ready when they march to Thebes
He isn't ready for the slaughter in battle, he delights in the fighting, proving himself worthy of his fathers son, gaining Athenas attention, he's proud but afterwards, when it catches him unawares he struggles with the realities of war and ots consequences until he locks it away in the same chamber of his heart he locks his doubts in; of never living up to his father, the real shame of his fathers sin that he is well aware of but ignores as much as he can, and doubt of what the purpose of it all was, the grief for his grandfather and uncle, the fear for his life, and the numbing reality of merciness life and gods and you only know will take and take until it wrings you dry
He channels his energy into a purpose that seems just to him: Calydon and setting his grandfather free... locks it away when he too dies soon after
That war was easier, he exhilarates in the fighting in the challenge and the rush of battle and it becomes its own purpose and motivation
Diomedes joined the Trojan War not just because of the oath, but he wants to breathe in the tang of blood in the air again.
Peace and prosperity is nice but boring, he felt sleepy and tedious. He felt like he was in a nice fever dream that should not last, so he ended it himself.
I think Nolanâs Odyssey is yet another example of why color blind casting is a bad idea and how it can straight up circle back to being racist. Like Nolan casts a black Helen, then has her getting her face scarred by her white husband as punishment (mind you NONE of this happens in mythology), is that not insane? Is that not racist?
Same energy with âretellings that make Andromeda black only to make Perseus an abuser, yet that same retelling would still get praised for its racial representation.
Is it true that Achilles was either indifferent to Pyrrhus or disapproved of him?
I imagine Achilles being kind of a "deadbeat father" might lead to that thought. But no, that's not the case!
In The Iliad, when thinking about the people whose deaths would affect him most, Achilles mentions Patroclus, Peleus and Neoptolemus, whom he describes as "my beloved sonâ. Neoptolemus, in fact, was present enough in Achilles' mind that, knowing he couldn't raise him, he planned for Patroclus, whom he considered his most beloved and trusted person, to do so in his place. So not only did he use Neoptolemus as an example of someone he would mourn deeply, he also made it clear that he worried about what would happen to him even after his death:
And summoning his memories, Achilles deeply sighed and spoke:
âOnce it was that you yourself, evil-fated always, dearest of companions,
set out a pleasing meal for me in my shelter
readily and deftly, when the Achaeans raced
to carry war and all its tears to the horse-breaking Trojans;
but now you lie cut asunder, and my heart
takes no part of food and drink, although this is in my shelter,Â
but yearns for you. For I could not suffer anything else more evil,
not if I should learn of the dying of my father,
who no doubt in Phthia now lets fall a soft tear
bereft of such a son; while I the son in a foreign land
am waging war with Trojans for the sake of Helen, at whom I shudder;
not if I should learn of the death of my beloved son, raised at my behest on
Scyrosâ
if by chance he still lives â Neoptolemos the godlike in beauty.
Before this the heart within me had hoped
that I alone would die far from the horse-grazed pastures of Argos,
here at Troy, but that you would return to Phthia,Â
and that in your swift black ship you might fetch my son
away from Scyros and show him each and every thing I have,
my property, my slaves, and high-roofed great house.
I think Peleus is either already dead and altogether gone,
or perhaps still barely alive he is worn down by grief
in hateful old age, dreading always
The baneful report of me, when he learns that I have died.â
So he spoke weeping, and the old men in response mourned
as they remembered, each thinking of the things left in his own halls.
The Iliad, 19.314-339. Translation by Caroline Alexander.
In The Odyssey, Odysseus visits the Underworld, and among the shades is Achilles. When Achilles notices Odysseus' presence, he asks questions. These questions are: how is his father Peleus doing now that he is old and can no longer protect himself, and how is his son Neoptolemus, whom Achilles was unable to see grow up? Years after his death, Achilles is still thinking about his father and son. Achilles calls Neoptolemus "my proud sonâ. He doesn't even know about Neoptolemus, as Odysseus hasn't yet answered him, but he's already describing him with pride:
[Achillesâ line]Â
â[...] But come now,
tell me anything you have heard of my proud son, whether
Memories of Troy
or not he went along to war to fight as a champion;
and tell me anything you have heard about stately Peleus,
whether he still keeps his position among the Myrmidon
hordes, or whether in Hellas and Phthia they have diminished his state,
because old age constrains his hands and feet, and I am no longer there
under the light of the sun to help him,
not the man I used to be once, when in the wide Troad
I killed the best of their people, fighting for the Argives. If only for a little
while I could come like that to the house of my father, my force and my
invincible hands would terrify such men
as use force on him and keep him away from his rightful honors.â
The Odyssey, 11.491-503. Translation by Richmond Lattimore.
Odysseus responds that he has no information about Peleus, but he does have information about Neoptolemus, whom Odysseus calls âyour beloved sonâ (11.505-507). He then proceeds with a long speech praising Neoptolemus (11.507-537), and Achillesâ reaction is to practically leap for joy, and Odysseus makes it clear that what made him so happy was the praise given to Neoptolemus (âfor what I had said of his sonâ):
âSo I spoke, and the soul of the swift-footed scion of Aiakos
stalked away in long strides across the meadow of asphodel,
happy for what I had said of his son, and how he was famous.
The Odyssey, 11.538-540. Translation by Richmond Lattimore.
In The Cypria, after forcing Helenus to reveal the prophecy of Troy's fall, Odysseus fetchs Neoptolemus on Skyros so he can join the war. The ghost of Achilles appears and talks to Neoptolemus. We don't know the content of the conversation, but we once again have confirmation that, even in death, Achilles was thinking of Neoptolemus. In fact, he thought of him enough to use his energies to manifest himself to him as a ghost:
[...] Next Odysseus lies in wait and catches Helenus, who prophesies as to the taking of Troy, and Diomede accordingly brings Philoctetes from Lemnos. Philoctetes is healed by Machaon, fights in single combat with Alexandrus and kills him: the dead body is outraged by Menelaus, but the Trojans recover and bury it. After this Deiphobus marries Helen, Odysseus brings Neoptolemus from Scyros and gives him his father's arms, and the ghost of Achilles appears to him [...]
The Cypria, frag 1. Translation by H.G. Evelyn-White.
In Quintus Smyrnaeus's Posthomerica, Achilles appears in Neoptolemus's dream to request the sacrifice of Polyxena. He argues that this is a way of honoring him for his service and that if the Greeks donât obey, he will punish the Greeks by preventing them from leaving Troy because he will stop the winds. But that's not all he asks of Neoptolemus. In fact, the first thing Achilles does upon seeing Neoptolemus is kiss him and look at him lovingly ("kissed his neck and flashed eyes lovingly"). When speaking to Neoptolemus, Achilles uses a comforting tone ("and speak comfortable words"). His words are to greet him, tell him not to mourn Achilles because he is happy in death (having gone to a blessed place) and advise him as a father would a son. The conversation about not remaining in mourning is quite significant coming from Achilles, considering that he is the same person who knows all too well what it's like to be consumed by the grief of losing someone (Patroclus). It's also interesting to note that asking to be "honored" (Polyxena's sacrifice) wasn't even his priority, as Achilles chose to speak to Neoptolemus about other things first and only then inform him of his request:
When came on these too sorrow-drowning sleep,
Even then above his son's head rose and stood
Godlike Achilles' mighty shade, in form
As when he lived, the Trojans' bane, the joy
Of Greeks, and kissed his neck and flashing eyes
Lovingly, and spake comfortable words:
"All hail, my son! Vex not thine heart with grief
For thy dead sire; for with the Blessed Gods
Now at the feast I sit. Refrain thy soul
From sorrow, and plant my strength within thy mind.
Be foremost of the Argives ever; yield
To none in valour, but in council bow
Before thine elders: so shall all acclaim
Thy courtesy. Honour princely men and wise;
For the true man is still the true man's friend,
Even as the vile man cleaveth to the knave.
If good thy thought be, good shall be thy deeds:
But no man shall attain to Honour's height,
Except his heart be right within: her stem
Is hard to climb, and high in heaven spread
Her branches: only they whom strength and toil
Attend, strain up to pluck her blissful fruit,
Climbing the Tree of Honour glow-crowned.
Thou therefore follow fame, and let thy soul
Be not in sorrow afflicted overmuch,
Nor in prosperity over-glad. To friends,
To comrades, child and wife, be kindly of heart,
Remembering still that near to all men stand
The gates of doom, the mansions of the dead:
For humankind are like the flower of grass,
The blossom of spring; these fade the while those bloom:
Therefore be ever kindly with thy kind.
Now to the Argives say â to Atreus' son
Agamemnon chiefly â if my battle-toil
Round Priam's walls, and those sea-raids I led
Or ever I set foot on Trojan land,
Be in their hearts remembered, to my tomb
Be Priam's daughter Polyxeina led â
Whom as my portion of the spoil I claim â
And sacrificed thereon: else shall my wrath
Against them more than for Briseis burn.
The waves of the great deep will I turmoil
To bar their way, upstirring storm on storm,
That through their own mad folly pining away
Here they may linger long, until to me
They pour drink-offerings, yearning sore for home.
But, when they have slain the maiden, I grudge not
That whoso will may bury her far from me."
Then as a wind-breath swift he fleeted thence,
And came to the Elysian Plain, whereto
A path to heaven reacheth, for the feet
Ascending and descending of the Blest.
Then the son started up from sleep, and called
His sire to mind, and glowed the heart in him.
Posthomerica, 14.193-246. Translation by A.S. Way.
Therefore, the claim that Achilles cares nothing about his life on Skyros and that, consequently, Neoptolemus is irrelevant to him has no basis in the ancient sources. On the contrary, when the sources show us Achilles' feelings toward Neoptolemus, what he feels is love, pride and concern.
Also, as far as I know, Achilles isn't shown to be disappointed in Neoptolemus. There's a hint of it in The Aeneid, but it's Priam who tells Neoptolemus that Achilles will be disappointed in him if he kills him, since Achilles had previously spared him (2.506-588). But let's be honest: 1) Priam is trying to stay alive 2) Priam has literally only interacted directly with Achilles once. So is it really fair to assume Priam is right? The other sources, which show what the ghost Achilles thinks of Neoptolemus, contradict his words that he would be disappointed in Neoptolemus. Neoptolemus himself isn't at all convinced by Priam, even telling Priam to warn Achilles himself in the Underworld before killing him: that's how much credibility he put in those words.
Another detail is that, in The Aeneid, Troilus is apparently killed in battle and not in a temple (1.474-478), so it makes sense that Neoptolemus's behavior would be considered different from Achilles's in Virgil's context. But in many versions, Achilles kills Troilus in a temple, just as Neoptolemus killed Priam in a temple. The scholia of The Aeneid by Servius even noted this difference! So, if you consider the version of Troilus killed in a temple rather than The Aeneid's version, the idea of ââAchilles being angry with Neoptolemus for committing sacrilege (killing a supplicant inside the temple) becomes even more illogical because it would be something Achilles himself did. This similarity between the two was so noted that there were vases depicting both events (Achilles killing Troilus in the temple, Neoptolemus killing Priam in the temple).
The idea of ââNeoptolemus/Achilles duality in Priam's death is also alluded to in Tryphiodorus' Taking of Illium:
But Neoptolemus, scion of Aeacus, slew beside the altar of Zeus Herkeios (of the Court-yard) the aged king out-worn with woe. He put from him such pity as his father had shown, and hearkened not to his prayers, nor had compassion when he looked on his hair grey even as the hair of Peleus: the hair at which of old Achilles softened his heart and, despite his grievous anger, spared the old man. Hard of heart! verily a like fate was destined afterward to come to him by the altar of truthful Apollo, when, as he sought to harm the divine shrine, a Delphian man smote and slew him with a holy knife.
The Taking of Illium, 634-643. Translation by A.W. Mair.
But remarkably, the narrative does this to weave an ironic parallel: Priam was spared by the father only to be killed by the son. The emphasized difference between them is that Achilles "softened his heart" because "he looked on his hair gray even as the hair of Peleusâ. Neoptolemus is "hard of heart" because he had no compassion for an elderly, defenseless man, like Achilles did when he thought Priam was like his father Peleus. But that's it: narrative parallels. The narrative doesn't tell us Achilles is so disappointed!, it just says Neoptolemus killed the man his father spared.
This kind of ironic duality isn't unique to Priam, by the way. In other myths, Neoptolemus kills Eurypylus, the son of the Mysian king Telephus, and Telephus himself wasnât only spared by Achilles but was healed by him when Achilles used his spear to scrape rust. And this is clearly intentional, as it's emphasized that Neoptolemus killed Telephus's son with the same spear Achilles used to heal Telephus!
In Posthomerica, Neoptolemus reminds Eurypylus that Telephus was wounded by Achilles' spear and subsequently healed by him:
Answered Achilles' battle-eager son:
"Wherefore, when I am hurrying to the fray,
Dost thou, a foe, put question thus to me,
As might a friend, touching my lineage,
Which many know? Achilles' son am I,
Son of the man whose long spear smote thy sire,
And made him flee â yea, and the ruthless fates
Of death had seized him, but my father's self
Healed him upon the brink of woeful death. [...]â
Posthomerica, 8.146-154. Translation by A.S. Way.
And then he informs him that the spear he uses is the same one Achilles used. This means it's the same spear that was used on Telephus:
"Eurypylus, thou saidst thou wouldst destroy
The Danaan ships and men, wouldst slay us all
Wretchedly â but the Gods would not fulfil
Thy wish. For all thy might invincible,
My father's massy spear hath now subdued
Thee under me, that spear no man shall 'scape,
Though he be brass all through, who faceth me.â
Posthomerica, 8.206-212. Translation by A.S. Way.
And Quintus Smyrnaeus was certainly not the first to draw such a parallel. Sophocles, who wrote a play called Eurypylus, noted this same irony, for in frag 210 it is described that Eurypylus died by the spear that healed his father.
But honestly, that wouldn't be enough to make Achilles throw up his hands and say son, no!! because the reason Achilles healed Telephus is because Telephus offered to help the Greeks get to Troy (they were lost) in exchange for being healed. He didn't just look at Telephus and randomly think I'll heal this poor, suffering soul! It was a deal. In some versions (present in visual sources), Telephus also literally takes baby Orestes hostage to get what he wants, so again: it wasn't motivated by Achilles' pure heart. Neoptolemus, on the other hand, has no reason to spare Eurypylus. Eurypylus here appears as a foreign contingent who came to the Trojans' aid in a time of crisis. In this sense, he's a sort of equivalent to Sarpedon, Memnon or Penthesilea. And, well, the first was killed by Patroclus and the other two by Achilles. So, again, it would be ridiculous, to say the least, for Achilles to be upset about this. So, naturally, he wasn't. No writer, as far as I know, has written him upset about this. In The Odyssey, during Odysseus' description of Neoptolemus, he literally says that he killed Eurypylus, and again, Achilles' reaction was to be happy about it (although it's worth noting that, while Memnon exists in The Odyssey, there's no mention of Penthesilea, and Telephus is only referred to as Eurypylus' father without any direct connection to Achilles).
Now, how do I interpret this? I think Neoptolemus loves Achilles and Achilles loves Neoptolemus, but the love they feel is different. Achilles' love for Neoptolemus isnât contaminated: he wants his son to be well treated, he misses him, he wants to ensure he gets what is rightfully his, he is proud that he is a great warrior, he doesn't want him to spend the rest of his life mourning him. It's normal, and it makes sense. Achilles had a father. In fact, Achilles had more than one father! Not only is he constantly portrayed as a good son to Peleus, he admits that he sees Phoenix as a father too (The Iliad 9.606-619) and, depending on the situation, even Chiron is someone he calls father (Ovid's Fausti 5). When we think of maternal figures, Achilles isn't missing them all that much either. It's true that Thetis didn't raise him (Argonautica 4.865-884), but she was still a remarkably present mother who did everything for him. Not only that, Achilles was also raised by nymphs on Mount Pelion. He was, essentially, a child loved in every possible way. Neoptolemus had his mother Deidamia and his grandfather Lycomedes, and they clearly loved him (see, for example, Posthomerica and Imagines), but he never had a father and never allowed anyone to be "like a father" to him. He doesn't want a "father figure"; he wants his father. Achilles knows how a father loves a son and how a son loves a father because he was raised in a way that would be difficult for him not to. But Neoptolemus? He knows how a mother loves her son, how a grandfather loves his grandson, he knows how son and grandson reciprocate the mother and grandfather. But he doesn't know what to do with the father-son relationship, and this is so notable that Odysseus is able to exploit him for this vulnerability (Sophocles' Philoctetes). Neoptolemus can only imagine, he can only distort. He can't even use Lycomedes as an example, because Lycomedes is an example of a father who loves his daughter, not a father who loves his son â after all, he doesn't even have sons. See how, in The Odyssey, despite having Penelope, Telemachus never got over Odysseus's absence.
Achilles' love wasn't contaminated, but his sonâs love was. Neoptolemus not only loves Achilles as a son mourns his long-lost father, he desires to be Achilles at any cost. If he is Achilles, Achilles can never be absent, because they will be the same. Achilles isn't perfect, but Neoptolemus thinks he is. He was never there to show him that he is imperfect. Consequently, he strives to be like him and even surpass him, even in actions that were reprehensible even by ancient Greek standards. He takes pride in having gone to war younger than Achilles, seeing it as proof of his achievements (Ausonius' Epitaph IX). When Achilles orders the sacrifice of Polyxena, Neoptolemus wants to be the one who sacrifices her because he believes it demonstrates love for his father (Greek Anthology 114). When Neoptolemus chooses Andromache among the captive women, it is because of her reputation as Hector's wife (The Trojan Women 645-665). Neoptolemus's identity is modeled on Achilles; even his name was given to him by Phoenix in honor of Achilles (Description of Greece 10.26.4). And so much so, he is unable to let him go. His obsession with him is so great that he is willing to confront a god within his temple, for he cannot get over Apollo's killing of him (Andromache 47-55). Only Achilles and Neoptolemus were able to lift Achilles' spear (The Iliad 16.140-144, Sophocles' Eurypylus frag 210), which demonstrates that they are similar on some level, but they cannot be the same person. Indeed, it was Neoptolemus's incessant desire to pursue Achilles's ghost that killed him, for it not only led him to confront Apollo (which angered the god, as shown in Euripides) but also part of the reason for the violence he committed in committing sacrilege in the temple of Zeus (a sacrilege that is stated as the reason for Neoptolemus's death in Tryphiodorus and Pausanias). Achilles died pursuing immortal glory, but Neoptolemus died pursuing Achilles. Achilles couldnât have died pursuing himself, and Neoptolemus was able to die pursuing him precisely because they arenât the same person.
He tried to be Achilles, but deep down he could only be Pyrrhus and, later, Neoptolemus. The Greeks used him to fill Achilles's armor (The Cypria frag 1), it's true, and he was also destined to sack Troy in a way his father was never meant to. He wasnât only as lethal as Achilles, he would also provide the victory Achilles couldn't provide because he died too soon. This filled him with the idea that he had achieved his goal: to be Achilles, to be better than Achilles, never feel empty again. But he realized that wasn't really the case. Years after the war, he was questioning Apollo for killing Achilles. He hadn't surpassed Achilles as he thought he had and his acts were as empty as they always were, just as Achilles killing Hector didnât make him able to embrace Patroclus again (The Iliad). And that's why they can't be the same with Priam. Achilles spared Priam because, having overcome his own grief, he was able to empathize with another's grief. But Neoptolemus never overcame his own grief, and there was no room in his heart to reach out to Priam. Grief left them both furious, but Achilles controlled his anger, and Neoptolemus let it consume him. Achilles constantly wavered between fury and sadness, Neoptolemus remained only furious: it was pure hatred, hatred for the Troy that took his father, hatred for a family that never fully existed. Who knows, maybe even self-hatred, for not doing enough, for not being him! That was how he saw things.
In the end, he died trying to be what he could never be, refusing to accept that he could be happy just being himself until the end. This denial caused Neoptelemus to destroy the lives of many and, ultimately, to destroy himself. Perhaps, if he had never tried to be Achilles, he would never have set out for Troy. Perhaps he wouldnât have accepted the armor, perhaps he wouldnât have killed so many, perhaps he wouldnât have destroyed the city, perhaps he wouldnât have taken captives. But Neoptolemus, who never doubted, never considered that "perhapsâ. And years passed, the emptiness remained, and Neoptolemus refused to doubt. Achilles made him strong and weak. And perhaps Achilles was aware of this to some degree, perhaps that is why he was able to ask Neoptolemus for something as absurd as sacrificing Polyxena: because he knew he would accept.
I think the way Philostratus describes Neoptolemus physically in Heroica shows all of this well: âhe was good-looking and resembled his father, but was inferior to him in the same way that beautiful people are inferior to their statuesâ (trans. Jennifer K. Berenson Maclean and Ellen Bradshaw Aitken). Because that's it: a statue, no matter how well made, will never be the person who inspired it.
So yeah, to look at all this and choose to think "Achilles didn't care for Neoptolemus and in fact disapproved of him entirely" is, in my opinion, choosing the most tedious approach. Like, they're both so complicated in such a cruelly delicious way. Let them be.
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i genuinely don't think there's much, if anything, hotter than someone clearly having a blast doing something they're really good at. doesn't really matter what it is. the combo of competence and joy is absolutely lethal to me
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'You falsely claim to be Achilles' son: he never treated me, his enemy, with such disdain. When I appealed to him, he recognized my rights and kept his word, giving me Hector's corpse for burial and sending me unharmed back to my throne.'
The old man weakly cast his feeble spear. It clanged against the bronze, a useless throw, and dangled from the surface of the boss.
Pyrrhus said, 'Soon you will bring word of this down to the son of Peleus, my father. Remember to describe the shocking deeds committed by his Neoptolemus, the stain on his ancestral line. Now die.'
Neoptolemus may be awful, but you can't say Virgil doesn't give him great lines.