Leyna Eithnea

Ive dug up all I could trying to track down where the assumption that Diomedes of Argos was 4 years old when his father died came from.

I cant find anything.

The wikipedia page added that claim on 6th Nov 2009, it never got provided with a source to back this claim.

A private blog article claimed he was around 15 in 2011 but provides no sources as well

Abagond chronogical timeline (which is a made-up one) only gives the year differrnce between Seven and Troy and not Diomedes' birth

The closest I can assume is the Thebaid by Statius saying its been 3 seasons since the wedding of Adrastus' daughters and Polynices and Tydeus that they started their campaign against Thebes, but that would make Diomedes closer to 2-3 years old at the oldest.

But A source that would possibly contradict this is the hellenistic Epilium Diomedis papyrus fragments that say he had a son before he ever went to troy, though the Iliad says he is pretty young / Nestor says "he could be his youngest" (though we gotta assume this excludes Peisistratus of the Odyssey) so the Epilium may be counted to not follow the Iliadic Tradition

So where does this claim come from? Can anyone provide me with a scholarly source or ancient text that would allow this assumption?

And if there IS no source. Then its made up and its a false claim that has been going around for 17 years without getting fact checked and should get corrected

Because the then the answer would be "young but we don't know how young" he could be 14, he could be 18, he could be 20

We

Dont

Diomedes may have been as young as 11 🫠

Word in question we finially found is "τυτθός"

Indicating a very small child, or rather pretty much still a baby or young toodler, not older than 4 most likely

Watching and crtiquing Nolan's Odyssey and having my interest in Greek Mythology rekindled is certainly interesting, considering I am from the Global South, a place far removed from the popular consciousness when it comes to who may engage with the Greek and Roman classics. Much of our interpretations are, as is to be expected, deeply coloured by colonialism.

To put it in historical context, I am Indian and our relation to the Mediterranean is anything but non-existent. Trade by sea was a regular affair. This relation was important enough for Alexander to chart the overland route from the Hellenic world to India, though one can assume that crossing the Hindu Kush and the Western Himalayas was extremely difficult. Just like with Diogenes, he engaged with the philosopher Dandapani (Dandamis). Legends of his travels still survive, from how he was impressed by the dignity of the conquered king Porus, to how his soldiers were impressed by cane sugar (they thought it was solidified honey). His battle-weary army refused to go further east and fight with the elephants of the Nanda kings. In the freedom movement against the Britishers, such interactions were a staple in historical fiction by Bengali writers trying to form a National identity while facing colonial powers.

Moving on from Alexander, parts of India, Pakistan and Afghanistan were ruled by kings of Greek descent. These Indo-Greeks, as they were called, left their mark, with some academics saying some of Hindu mythology was influenced by Greek myths.

The medieval world coincided with the goldne age of Islamic learning, with the fortunate engaging with Arabic translations. The Mughals knew Aristotle, though with the Arabs not being interested too much in the epics, I do not know how much they studied the Iliad and the odyssey in their original forms.

Of course, our most immediate connections with the Greek epics is though the British. Sons of elite backgrounds had the chance to study Greek and Latin (Tagore had a Latin tutor during his stay in England).For the rest, there were the battered translations of Pope, to which they took to as eagerly as to their Dickenses and Shakespeares.

With the expansion in education, Greek Mythology became familiar to children even in Vernacular schools. There were numerous children's adaptations in regional languages and in English by Indian authors, which is how I read them.

Nolan's movie is interesting in the sense that it sort of encapsulates our entire relation with the Mediterranean heritage. Its loudest proponents are not the people who have inherited the culture. They are not even the people whose lives and beliefs still carry the effects of the Mycenean and the Hellenic eras. The Mediterranean regions too faced the ill-effects of colonisation, along with cultural usurption by Western Europe.

Yet I, from another former colony, mostly have access to Greek culture filtered through an US-centric lens. They too, hear of the South Asian voice through the same lens.

Proof that Socrates is in love with Alcibiades in Plato and beyond. The original sources with the ancient greek text, the translation and the word derivatives of "eros" highlighted. Plato's symposium 213c-213d

καὶ τὸν Σωκράτη, Ἀγάθων, φάναι, ὅρα εἴ μοι ἐπαμύνεις: ὡς ἐμοὶ ὁ τούτου ἔρως τοῦ ἀνθρώπου οὐ φαῦλον πρᾶγμα γέγονεν. ἀπ᾽ ἐκείνου γὰρ τοῦ χρόνου, ἀφ᾽ οὗ τούτου ἠράσθην, οὐκέτι ἔξεστίν μοι οὔτε προσβλέψαι οὔτε διαλεχθῆναι καλῷ οὐδ᾽ ἑνί, ἢ οὑτοσὶ ζηλοτυπῶν με καὶ φθονῶν θαυμαστὰ ἐργάζεται καὶ λοιδορεῖταί τε καὶ τὼ χεῖρε μόγις ἀπέχεται. translation:

Then Socrates said, Agathon, do your best to protect me, for I have found my love for this fellow no trifling affair. From the time when I fell in love with him I have not had a moment’s liberty either to look upon or converse with a single handsome person, but the fellow flies into a spiteful jealousy which makes him treat me in a monstrous fashion, girding at me and hardly keeping his hands to himself.

Plato's Gorgias 481d

ἐρῶντε δύο ὄντε δυοῖν ἑκάτερος, ἐγὼ μὲν Ἀλκιβιάδου τε τοῦ Κλεινίου καὶ φιλοσοφίας,

translation: the two of us are in love each with two things—I with Alcibiades, son of Cleinias, and philosophy,

Fragment from Aeschines of Sphettus (11c)

ἐγὼ δὲ διὰ τὸν ἔρωτα ὃν ἐτύγχανον ἐρῶν Ἀλκιβιάδου οὐδὲν διάφορον τῶν Βακχῶν ἐπεπόνθειν. καὶ γὰρ αἱ Βάκχαι ἐπειδὰν ἔνθεοι γένωνται, ὅθεν οἱ ἄλλοι ἐκ τῶν φρεάτων οὐδὲ ὕδωρ δύνανται ὑδρεύεσθαι, ἐκεῖναι μέλι καὶ γάλα ἀρύονται. καὶ δὴ καὶ ἐγὼ οὐδὲν μάθημα ἐπιστάμενος ὃ διδάξας ἄνθρωπον ὠφελήσαιμʼ ἂν, ὅμως ᾤμην ξυνὼν ἂν ἐκείνῳ διὰ τὸ ἐρᾶν βελτίω ποιῆσαι.

translation: Through the love which I had for Alcibiades I had felt no different from the Bacchants. For whenever the Bacchants become inspired, they draw milk and honey from sources where others cannot even draw water. And though I knew no study by which I might usefully educate a man , still I thought that by associating with him I would improve him through love.

Alcibiades 1 the entire dialogue.

A quick note on καλός inscriptions.

Why are there (seemingly) random declarations of adolescent boy beauty on ancient Greek pottery? 

It is this question that has been puzzling classicists for over a century. Could these vases be viewed as fan club memorabilia? This post will give a quick overview on what these inscriptions are, examples, and a possible interpretation. 

As well as signatures and labels, declarations of young male beauty (‘καλός inscriptions’) are common on Attic vases. καλός (ΚΑLΟΣ when capitalised, and pronounced ‘kalos’) in ancient Greek means something along the lines of beautiful/ fine/ good, but is usually translated as ‘beautiful’ in the case of these inscriptions. Female versions of such inscriptions are rare. 

The shown example dates to ca. 500 BC. Its text is faded and hard to read, but ‘ΕΠΙΔΡΟMΟΣ ΚΑLΟΣ’ (Epidromos is beautiful) is inscribed. One of the most common καλός inscriptions was 'Λέαγρος καλός’ (Leagros is beautiful). A good example of the latter is at the MFA, Boston. This storage jar depicts two nude youths jumping together; one inscription reads ‘Leagros is beautiful’, another, ‘Leagros is beautiful, yes indeed!’. It is interesting to note that Leagros seems to have become a distinguished general in the Athenian army.

It is fairly certain that these inscriptions were not done to reflect the feelings of the craftsman -nobody would have really cared what they thought. It does, however, reflect what the craftsman thought would sell: thus, the feelings of potential customers. Professor Richard Neer of the University of Chicago notes that “it is even possible that some drinking groups would single out particular boys of praise, like fan clubs or chat rooms today. Vase painters catered to their enthusiasms.”

Hehe alrighty let the memes be free