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first class vs. doomsday

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maybe I'm sensitive but the whole thing with the odyssey movie feels like a harsh reminder that nobody gives a fuch about Greek history & culture and that it can be constantly used and appropriated with 0 consequences.
What's more bleak is that it adds to the sea of misconception that the west has of ancient Greece and its myths/tales.
So you can try to ignore the movie, never engage with it and one day if you talked about a myth or a take a person will just to "correct" you
I think this is what depresses me more. Media like Percy Jackson, Lore Olympus, God of War have already created the most obnoxious, xenophobic, dense people.
I guess it just pains me that it's gonna double given how popular Nolan is.
100% agree. Worst even, there are Greeks who know Greek mythology solely on those westernised mythological "takes". I've seen Greeks defend Nolan, claiming that just because we had no idea what Athena actually looked like or that she took on many different animal forms, they see no problem in Zendaya playing her (despite us being taught the Homeric epics in school and Homer giving a crystal-clear description of Athena that does not agree with Zendaya).
Having a problem with the casting in the Odyssey is one thing. Singling out the POC cast members is another.
Yes, Nolan should have casted Greek actors.
But people having a deliberate issue with Lupita Nyong’o and Zendaya’s casting is such obvious racism it’s not even funny.
I am a Pagan who believes in the Gods and has dedicated years to learning about the Greeks specifically. I am also a film student who firmly believes that stories about a culture should include people from that culture, and the Odyssey has no Greek actors in it. Greek people should tell and star in Greek stories— point blank period.
But if the entire cast is non-Greek and your issue is JUST with the Brown people? That’s insanity.
Why do certain foreigners have an obsession over our skin tones and insist we are either Black or a mix, and when we Greeks try to educate them on that matter, they exclaim that we are gaslighting them?
Educate them on what? If I may say, you are not asking the right question.
Think about it. You do not have to educate someone on what Greeks look or used to look like. These days, any serious person who is curious for some reason about Greeks' looks only needs to google it. They can google "greek celebrities, greek models, greek athletes, modern greek poets, ancient greek philosophers, greek actors, greek people, greek men, greek women, greek statues" etc etc etc etc etc It takes about a few seconds to type the query and get numerous results.
Do you really believe that these people who promote a Black Greek theory genuinely have no access to the Internet, encyclopedias, geography books, human geography, art, heck, even youtube videos made by Greeks? Or do you think that the people who hear them and believe them do not have equal tools available for research either?
The thing is, these people do not care about what Greek people look like. They only care about what rhetorics they can form through a claimed connection to the ancient Greek civilisation - even distant. The West has studied the Greek civilisation thoroughly but not sensitively; the motivation was not exclusively the desire for knowledge and understanding. The West has built a foundational myth on the basis of the achievements of Ancient Greeks and it has enwrapped it with connotations of superiority, the superiority of the Western Civilisation. In the western world this myth has been so engraved and accepted by people of all political convictions that as a consequence claiming some sort of relation to Ancient Greeks is a form of validation or perceived superiority.
Now, even the suppressed people groups in the West are members of the Western society and part of the western cosmotheory. A black person born and raised in the USA along with all their family is a person that usually knows nothing ouside the American cultural sphere. So, the symbols of validation and superiority stand for them as well. For example, the black women who produced the Netflix documentary about Cleopatra... they were not making a documentary about Greek history. They were in fact not even making a documentary about Ancient Egyptian history. They were making a manifesto for black / African women empowerment, and they were ready to appropriate and misuse history for this purpose. It's similar to the horrible way feminism is exploited in our days - instead of women respecting themselves and creating powerful original roles for themselves while also embracing the strengths of a woman, the resilience of her will and body, the complex and understanding mind, the deep perception, the wisdom, they have turned modern feminism into movie crybabes whining "they can do it better than men" and start punching and knocking out 15 dudes in a row, all while weighing 50 kilos for the male gaze. The modern movements are failing because the suppressed groups speak the tongue of their suppressor rather than their own, unapologetically and proudly. And that's how you end up making a fool of yourself.
The - hopefully small - part of the African American woke community and their allies who claim the Ancient Greeks only do it because they use what is a standard measurement unit of value to the western whites. This is why they are also so quick to take any role in European history movies, instead of funding and investing in the exploration and promotion of African culture and history. They try to fight anti-black racism by subordinating to white supremacy symbols. Isn't that... sad?
For me, people saying Greeks are blacks is one of the least concerning inaccuracies rallied regarding Greeks. And that is because it is the easiest one to disprove. You basically only need eyes. Thirty million people travel in Greece every year - more and more white and black Americans every year. They can look at us, you know? This theory will not be believed and it is not believed.
But you will never be able to change the opinion of the very people who promote the theory, because those people do. not. care what the Greeks look like. They are only interested in crafting a myth of superiority for themselves, which is ultimately their misplaced need to compensate for centuries of injustice. So, when you really go into the process to explain to them what you look like - which is such a surreal situation and a lost cause from the get go - they cannot take this as information given to them, they see this as you distancing yourself from their cause of assuming symbols of validation and supposed superiority, and they eventually take you for an enemy and a racist. It is crazy but it is true.
Meanwhile, there are Europeans who say that Modern Greeks originate from sub-Saharan Africans whereas Ancient Greeks were the ancestors of Albanians, as some Albanians say, or of Germans as some Germans say (including Hitler) and so on. Why is that? Well, because there are indeed many racists in Europe and for them to be from sub-Saharan Africa is considered inferior. So they claim the Ancient Greeks for themselves, despite the absence of even a single piece of evidence for their claim, and for their superiority myth to work, they have to remove Modern Greeks from the equation, because we ruin their image, the image of the powerful West and of them being each time the prime examples of continuation of that powerful West.
Here I must add that most Greeks have internalized the European foundation myth and they consider it a good thing. While it can be flattering on a surface level, it is a double edged sword and so far I perceive we have mostly been cut by the bad side. It could have theoretically worked to our benefit but we have not managed to do it and this is largely our fault.
So, the question to ask is not "why some people say the Greeks were black" but "Why do so many people in the West find it so easy and unproblematic to exploit the history and identity of the Greek people in order to serve their own interests and narratives"?
I believe a big part of the answer is that it is a bit as if we do not exist. We are in every way a protectorate concealed under loud proud cries of old glory. USA says jump and we jump. UK was saying jump and we jumped. Germany says jump and we do. Israel now says jump and we do that too. Lately, it becomes more and more obvious to me with every day that passes and I cannot believe I had not seen it earlier. Our economy is controlled, our agriculture is controlled, for the study of our history we trust British retellings more than the studies of our own people. Historiography, admittingly, is not a very objective field of science by default - so you will not get perfect accuracy by the Greek historians but you won't get it either from British historians - let alone that like I have said Greek history has been seized from us to be used for all purposes and narratives since the 19th century already.
I have spoken before about the decent book "THE GREEKS" by the British Roderick Beaton. A book that remains consistently good more or less until it reaches the later years and especially the point of the Greek Revolution, which is squeezed in, like, two pages (he wrote more pages about the financial crisis), and in which he mentions only three people, Kolokotronis under a negative light (!!!), Kapodistrias fleetingly in literally a three-line paragraph (!!!!) and Mavrokordatos, whom he praises. Why is that? Well, because Kolokotronis prioritized the unity of the Greeks over the interests of the guarantor powers, the British and the French wanted to depose Kapodistrias and supported the revolts of the Maniots, whereas Mavrokordatos was explicitly British-friendly and served the British interests, sometimes even at the expense of Kapodistrias and the Greeks. I could not believe what I was reading, even a few foreign readers in Goodreads complained that the chapter about the Greek revolution was too short and hazy and that this was actually the part of the Greek history they did not know much about and wished to learn. So, I checked his sources. And I could not believe it. The source that this widely acknowlegded historian of Greek history used for the Greek Revolution was one (1) : the British consulate in Greece!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can you wrap your mind around this? This is how the author of an otherwise very decent book completely lost his integrity in two pages alone. The only way he mitigated this obscenity was by admitting fleetingly that "sometimes the UK served its own interests and exploited Greece". But he did not say that the UK still refuses to publicize the archive files about the assasination of Kapodistrias, 194 years after his death, something that happens within 30 years with all other sensitive files.
But most Greeks have internalized these things and they have put their trust in western European narratives. More excavations take place by foreigners rather than Greeks. Half of the population is brainwashed to hate Byzantium because that's what the western views on Greek history traditionally instructed (how convenient to destroy the link between ancient and modern Greece huh?). We don't serve our own interests in politics. Our economy is shattered, we are indebted to everyone and, for lack of a better phrase, we are groped by the balls. We have no agency, no face out there and our politicians have clutched the seats of the ministries and the parliament by serving foreign interests instead of those of the Greek people.
Most of the people who would write essays on why Greek gods can look like anyone or that Cleopatra was black because her grandma said so, do not know where Greece is in the map. And they don't care to know, because this has never been about the Greeks. We, with our choices, with our mistakes, have allowed Greek history to become public domain. The British Museum thinks it can make a better job at presenting Greek culture than the whole of the Greek state and says that to our face. The Germans think they understand Classical Greece better because they are the true inheritors of ancient greek intellect. The African Americans think Ancient Greeks were black. The South Slavs think they are the Ancient Macedonians. And our main concern is how to whine on the internet and expect an ex deus machina powerful nation to step forth and protect us, our borders and our history. Some think it's gonna be the Americans, some the Russians, some the Israelis.
Have these Greeks ever thought who's gonna give us our dignity back instead?
You may think I am diverging but I reassure you I am not. You are seeing a surface symptom but you are not seeing the ultimate root of all our problems. The problem is that Greeks and Greece have become free real estate for every rhetoric, every agenda, every historical revisionism. Not that a small bunch of folks envision a black Athena.
This cannot be solved by attacking them all one by one. What we need to do is change our place in the world. We need to stop being the rug others clean their shoes on. And I don't mean we need to become mean to someone else in order to achieve this (because all loser or evil states think they need to step on others' throats in order to improve their condition). We only need to regain our dignity and believe in ourselves and work to better ourselves on all aspects. To prosper. Finally, remember two things: a) respect is earned, not demanded or granted and b) you will never be respected unless you first respect yourself.
I feel like this is a bit of a sweeping statement. Greece (in ancient and modern times) has always had a wide variety of ethnicities; this long, rich history extends far beyond the strict boundaries of the nation right now. In antiquity, there were city-states instead of one unified country — and there was a lot of travel and trade within the empire as it was, so it wouldn't have been unusual to see non-white ethnicities in very populated cities (especially ones with ports). I believe there were even artistic depictions of Black people in objects like janiform vases. If you want more evidence, the Carthaginians (who fought a lot with various areas of Greece) were a Semitic people, generally regarded as often being Middle Eastern or North African. And, of course, we can't forget the trade and communication with Egypt! It is highly improbably that all throughout that, the concept of the Greek ethnicity was particularly solid or unified.
"(F)oreign interests instead of Greek people" I understand that it's an issue, and I agree with you that Greeks should have a say in their representation — but shouldn't Black and other non-white Greeks get their say in all of this as well? Are they not part of the culture? The people of Sudanese descent, moving to Greece because of the Ottoman Empire? The families that immigrated in the 90s and 00s, children growing up to accept Greece as their home? Not to mention the Roma and Turkish populations in the tens and hundreds of thousands. There is not only one ethnic group in the nation of Greece. I think we should celebrate the diversity of both historical and modern Greece; embracing our differences leads to better unity and understanding than flat-out ignoring it.
Sidenote: as far as depictions of the Theoi go, I think it's a bit restrictive to say that they should only be depicted in a certain ethnicity. Many hellenic deities are depicted in mythology as having animal (or other natural forms), and many deities were understood to be spiritual forces as much as they could appear as human. I'm not sure why having various skin colours would be such a contentious issue.
This was brought to you by a part-Greek person, who goes to Greece every year, has regular discussions with Greek family members, and interacts with Greek culture (both in the ancient and modern sense. I used to be Orthodox Christian!)
@togetherwandering What is the sweeping statement? I did not make any statement, I only explained to that Anon how dynamics of power work in the world. Ultimately, I think that's what made so many from that certain circle of blogs that you come from lose their shit, because they haven't considered being - even unawaringly - part of the power play, but it's easier to twist it into me being an anti-black white supremacist lol, when what I am saying is literally that white supremacism is the culprit of the commercialisation of the Greek culture, no matter if that commercialisation nowadays comes from black people, nordic blondes, anglosaxons or whoever else. But all those people have as a common that they live in western societies, (because indigenous African and East Asian people are far more confident in their own skin and actually proud of their cultures) so the western factor is the culprit, not the skintone. That's what I am saying, literally: the (apparently Greek) Anon seems to be particularly concerned about the darker depictions and I am telling them that this is neither uniquely restricted to dark complexion representation nor anywhere near the stuff that should actually concern us, when historically people doing similar stuff in our close proximity and using it as a basis for irredentist claims and nation building is what is actually dangerous and alarming.
I will say, you say you are parts Greek and all, but your understanding of history, ethnicity and the sociopolitical dynamics bound to them come from the other place that you are from. All those concepts are perceived a little differently based on where you come from in the world and on what the specific challenges of your society are. It's totally okay, I am just saying, this is why you and I may get lost in translation.
I really don't understand what on earth the fights with the Carthaginians or the trade with Egypt has to do with Greek ethnicity. Do people who fight against the Greeks are also Greeks now? You become Greek if a Greek person looks at you or what? Or the vase... I have a set of Chinese style vases in my house, but I bought them from a Greek shop. I guess that means the craftsman was parts Chinese and I can claim Chinese ancestry now... Do people colonized by the Greeks are all considered Greek ethnicity? Because, wow, that's quite something to say, imagine saying that for the British colonies. My point is, you are mixing Hellene / Greek and Hellenist and Hellenized terms, let alone we should be very cautious about where the Roman terms enter the game...
I suppose you are trying to say in a pretty poor way that Greeks have come in contact with various peoples and as such there must have been some mixing. There's nowhere in the post where I claim that this has not happened (like it has happened with every single ethnicity under the sun) or that there have not been Greeks who were parts Black or nowadays with second generation immigrants completely black people with Greek nationality.
I am just saying that you could all bombard me together about how it's about Greek diversity representation, I am not gonna fall for American marketing. When an American person reads Greek mythology as fanfiction / erotica or whatever and draws Greek gods and heroes like themselves or like the people for whose rights they fight for, it's not because of the extensive studies they have done on Greek ethnicity and they have it all down and they are being historically accurate. It's because through the vessel of the Greek mythology they try to represent THEMSELVES, empower THEMSELVES. When Nolan puts Lupita N'yongo (indeed one of the prettiest women in the world) to play Helen of Sparta, thus the prettiest woman of the Greeks, which kinda means that the prettiest woman of the Greeks had to have first degree ancestry from central-eastern Africa, which is half a continent away from Greece, I am not stupid enough to believe that Nolan is showcasing "Greek ethnic diversity" as a tribute to that one sub-Saharan African in every 100,000 or more, who decided to cross the Sahara and then cross the Mediterranean Sea to then proceed to blend with Greeks in 1200 BC , and not that he's cashing in African Americans' bad need for representation in the pop culture and entertainment industry of the USA, because USA is their whole world bubble. Please.
That's all I am saying. I am only explaining what's happening. If you elect to keep fooling yourselves, you are free to, but don't ask me to do this as well.
As for the fact that I said that people are free to visit Greece and see how accurate their Greek representations are, why did that trigger you all so much. I said they are free to come and judge on their own. Who knows, they may come and look around and be like "heck gemsofgreece was so stupid, there are so many black ethnic Greeks around, my artworks were on point". That's fine. It's up to them. Why on earth would that be so triggering?! You may come to find that I was indeed wrong. If you were confident in your assessments, you should not get triggered by this.
PS: All that with love from a blog that literally has a half black Greek person as their profile picture. You are free to keep considering me a racist. I am free to keep considering you stupid beyond belief and with your head buried real deep up your arse and your own microworld. I only answered because you said you are parts Greek and you tried to make a dialogue, but the community from which all these hating replies come from is hugely toxic and problematic, I can't keep interacting with it. I don't expect things will get better after this, people who have painted you as an "enemy" because it serves their narrative will keep doing so, rather than try to understand what you are trying to say. This was another point I made in the original post and, boy, was I proven right....
My thoughts on Greek representation: Greek erasure and anti-Blackness perpetuated by the West and Greeks… explained through a fish comic.
Disclaimer: I made an ask with this same comic and posted that on @creatingblackcharacters. I’m tagging them for reach (I’ll admit that), and because I’ve added text narration to this comic that wasn’t on the post there.
And for those looking for the symbolism behind choices that I haven’t gone into depth on here, check out the ask I sent to CBC.
The fish you see here are Greek fish, represented by the white dot in their tails, all swimming in water the same hue as the Greek flag. The lightest toned fish is swimming towards the Middle East, and the darkest toned fish towards Africa.
They blend with Greece. They give to us, we give to them. They’re neighbours.
The middle fish is swimming towards… a place of navy. A place of navy much further away than the other two places.
The navy also blends with Greece. But the navy doesn’t want anyone else doing that…
The navy has taken over the fish! The fish of the edges have lost their heads to it, and the middle one its tail.
It made a smart move. Those who look toward the navy die last.
But it doesn’t have its dot anymore. It lost it to the navy.
Its friends are gone. Those who look towards the navy die last.
The navy has controlled Greek culture for 200 years.
The navy has controlled Greek culture for 300 years.
The navy has controlled Greek culture for over 300 years… until some friends swim in. Friends from the west, with their water stolen. Friends from the south, more familiar to Greece than the top-hatted navy fish.
And the next door neighbour that looks like a Greek, the friend from where the Greeks used to swim to before the further away navy took over, and the fried with Greek heritage all get called out of place, woke and irrelevant.
They get called such by the navy and many of the Greeks, those that care more about the navy than they do anywhere else.
They get called outsiders. Before the navy fish do.
Even though the navy fish group and the non navy fish group both have only one fish with Greek heritage each (the pink and lime green dotted fish).
They get called irrelevant, even though they’re the neighbours. They’re the neighbours that the Greeks swam to, talked to, traded with, lived with.
Some of the neighbours got their cultures balled up and thrown into the trash. Their cultures were thrown away and dismissed by the same navy.
Better to have ours merely painted over, permanently stained. At least it still exists, can still be recovered.
We can let the neighbours come over, just like we came over to them. Until they rebuild, and we can go swimming over once more.
But at the end of the day, there aren’t any white dotted fish anymore. The white dotted fish aren’t in white-dotted-fish-land. Instead, there’s the neighbours… and the navy.
The very same navy that stained our sea in the first place. The navy that hasn’t, doesn’t, won’t, let us speak.
All I’m saying is maybe we should get rid of the navy to get back in the story. We don’t need to get rid of the neighbours. There’s more than enough space for us if that damn navy goes.
This has been my thoughts on Greek representation and the Greek erasure and anti Blackness in the Greek cultural sphere explained through a fish comic. Thank you for making it this far.
Also if you have stuck around, please reblog this. I think this is an important statement, so I’d like it to go as far as I can get it.
Full comic for your pleasure:

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I want to briefly (finally) talk about why some Greeks are upset about the Nolan Odyssey casting, because I think the actual reasons are getting buried under the racist and transphobic backlash that doesn't deserve the time of day. There's some crucial historical context that a lot of people are missing, and I want to lay it out.
The core of the grievance is that Greek antiquity has been narrated on screen overwhelmingly by British and American actors for the better part of a century, for stories that belong to a culture that is very much still here. The Odyssey production, funded in part by several million euros in Greek government subsidies, produced a cast that is, to my knowledge, entirely non-Greek.
Why does this matter, though? Greek epics are part of the Western canon and taught everywhere. Doesn't that make them fair game, free to be reinterpreted by anyone without a second thought? To answer that, it helps to look at how they got folded into that canon in the first place.
Firstly, this is not a new phenomenon so much as the latest iteration of a much older one, traceable at least back to the eighteenth century, when parts of Europe began constructing ancient Greece as their own intellectual inheritance. The claim, in essence, was that the intellectual and aesthetic achievements of classical Athens flowed forward not into the Greek-speaking, Orthodox Christian, Ottoman-ruled population actually living on that land, but into contemporary Western Europe.
That claim required a certain amount of erasure to hold together. The people constructing "Greece" as a philosophical and aesthetic category in Weimar, Paris, and London were doing so entirely without reference to, or need for, actual Greek input. Fortunately for them, at that exact moment, Greece was under Ottoman rule, and had no institutional voice in how its own antiquity was being interpreted by people who had never set foot there.
The consequences of that arrangement outlasted that moment. Modern Greeks have been forced to inherit both the prestige of their ancient ancestry and the burden of never quite living up to a version of themselves invented for them by outsiders -- a mismatch so pronounced that foreign visitors to Greece were frequently disappointed to discover that the Greeks they encountered bore little resemblance to the imagined version of Greeks dreamed up by the West.
This is the deeper structural issue underneath something as seemingly trivial as film casting. Greek antiquity has functioned, for two and a half centuries, as cultural material seemingly available to the West precisely because Greece's own claim to authority over it was never taken seriously to begin with.
This is Dimitrios Katsikis, a blacksmith and researcher who's armor reconstruction is so authentic and praised it's featured in museums. Christopher Nolan contacted him as a consultant but then left him on read, there is genuinely zero ZERO excuse as to why Nolans movie should look so bland and bad.
Dimitrios Katsikis, known online as "the modern Hephaestus", talks about his collection of handcrafted ancient Greek armors.
I'm not sure why Nolan wanted to make an Odyssey movie with none of the sauce of the Odyssey.
The gods are barely present, Odysseus is changed to be a regretful and traumatized warfighter instead of the cocky and arrogant King of Ithaca and hero of the Trojan War, the casting choices range from "Yeah that's fine" to "Why is Travis Scott here", all of the color is sucked out in favor of an incredibly bland looking American movie.
If he wanted to make a movie about the Bronze Age Collapse (which is what his movie is about), why not make a standalone movie about it? Why tie it into Greek Myth?
Now that everyone is discussing Nolan's Odyssey movie, I feel like it's a good time to let non-Italians know that the production dumped plastic props into the Italian sea. Weirdly enough I could not find any article in English about it but it's a fucking problem nonetheless.
I might translate this article later today. This one was the most complete one, even in Italian news it's not talked about that much.
Non è la prima volta che la produzione solleva un vespaio in Sicilia. A Lipari una squadra di sub sarebbe però già impegnata a bonificare i
Reasons to boycott Nolan's The Odyssey (that I know of so far):
They shot in the illegally occupied Western Sahara as reported by Middle East Eye (thanks to @fuckyeahdavidandyonatan for bringing that up)
They dumped their props into a protected area of the Italian sea after shooting (thanks to @godslop for finding the article in English)
Zendaya wearing looted 3000 years old Iranian earrings for the premiere of the movie + having her stylist fly on a private jet just to get her a dress for the premiere in London
No Greek actors in a movie about Greek heritage
While people mentioned that Anne Hathaway was flown in to the set every day, apparently it was not on a private jet but on a helicopter that was being used anyway to fly in equipment.
None of these things are new in Hollywood or exclusive to the Odyssey, its director or its actors, but I do think we as audience should start holding Hollywood accountable when it disrespects our culture, heritage, environment, especially when it's movies that are this big and have a huge budged that would allow for more conscious choices.
Please do add anything else I missed.

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I am hoping that this is some sort of exaggeration or oversimplification because this is just blatant erasure of a major element of Greek culture and replaced by a more Christian version and I want to bang my head into a wall. That’s not what xenia is, and you just erased a major part of the Odyssey.
What do you MEAN Nolan didn't include the "My name is Nobody" scene.
Like
One of the CENTRAL PIECES, WHERE ODYSSEUS' CLEVERNESS SAVES HIM AND HIS ARROGANCE AND HUBRIS DAMN HIM HOW DO YOU ADAPT THE ODYSSEY WITHOUT THE NOBODY SCENE IT'S LITERALLY ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT MOMENTS IT'S NOT JUST A FUCKING PUN OMG
USAmericans stop appropriating and misunderstanding other cultures challenge IMPOSSIBLE
Crazy how the big budget adaptation with famous actors directed by someone hailed as one of the greatest directors ever is the worst odyssey adaptation of the last few years.
at least he didn’t try to touch the iliad we all say in unison thank god we say thank god thank god
what a privilege it is to come home to a little animal that loves you like you're their whole world.

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shout out to the girls that hate their bodies but are trying really really hard to find the beauty and comfort in them because that shit is hard and takes a lot of time and is emotionally exhausting. i’m proud of y’all.
You never know what color pallette someone's Tumblr is till ppl are screenshotting posts and tags
do u like mine
Oh wow.
Some people on tumblr are reading ancient scrolls and you'd never know