All Systems Are Valid.

Is plurality about parts or not. Are we parts or not. Choose.

yes, you can be both disabled and happy. that's always an admirable thing to work for. you can be both disabled, even severely disabled, and also happy.

You're only a REAL arthropod if you have an EXOSKELETON and you have to PERIODICALLY MOLT to grow LARGER, and you have a SEGMENTED BODY with PAIRED JOINTED APPENDAGES.

If you have an endoskeleton, YOU ARE NOT AN ARTHROPOD.

STOP INVADING ARTHROPOD SPACES, YOU PRIVILEGED FUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>ask them if their source is all-plurality or DID-only

>they don't understand

>pull out illustrated diagram explaining what is all-plurality and what is DID-only

>they laugh and say "it's a good source"

>read source

I saw an anti-endo on r/systemscringe use this picture to prove all plurality comes from trauma and just...

If you join a soulbonding community and get mad that there's endogenic plurals there, maybe read what's on the tin before you open it. Not all soulbonders consider themselves plural (valid and real experience), and some might feel closer to the traumagenic label (also valid and real experience), sure, but... That's like reading a sign that says "dog park" and getting mad that there's dogs in there.

I have to send you this Sophie. I know that the video is just analyzing a general conservative debate tactic. But as soon as I saw it it reminded me of how sysmeds use sources in their arguments. No, the source doesn’t actually say what you’re saying it does. And even if it did, the argument you’re making with said source isn’t relevant to the argument. But it doesn’t matter. It’s using the source as a shield. Not as substance.

(Maybe you’ve already seen this. But in case you haven’t. Also check out the other videos in this series. If you want, not forcing you.)

First time I've seen this, but you're right! It definitely applies!

It's pretty easy to look at this video, and compare to any example of sysmeds using "sources."

In particular, sources they cite to prove all plurality is caused by trauma tend to be only focused on DID and not even mention other kinds of pathological plurality (OSDD/Partial DID), and at that usually only claims DID is "associated" with trauma. And more often than not, these aren't even actual peer reviewed papers, but random articles they found on Google.

For example, this post:

Let's go over these "sources."

The first source, Psychiatry.org, isn't peer reviewed but is at least ran by the American Psychiatric Association. So this is the most credible source in the bunch. Unfortunately, it doesn't say what is claimed! It says the vast majority of people with DID experienced trauma, but that wording implies there is a nonzero number of people have DID without trauma. So it actually contradicts claims of DID being exclusively trauma-based.

The second source, Beauty After Bruises, is a nonprofit and its articles are blog posts by people who, as far as I can tell, have no education in psychology or psychiatry. It's a bad source.

The third source is Reddit.

And this one actually makes me angry because the fact that they didn't include the website in this screenshot, but included the others, means they KNEW it was a bad source and posted it anyway! They just didn't want anyone else to see it!

The fourth source, Rethink, is again not peer-reviewed, and has no named authors whose credentials can be pointed to. It doesn't cite the doctors who believe this either. It just says "some researchers" think this and that there's disagreement.

The fifth "source" is an AI overview!!!!!

Finally, all of these sources have the same flaw in that NONE of them address plurality outside of DID. Which is what most endogenic systems experience. They are very specifically focused on DID. None of them discuss non-pathological plurality AT ALL. And the only one that even mentioned OSDD was the random reddit post!

But to the sysmed, it doesn't matter. Because they cited "sources".

And being able to post links and screenshots seems to be more important than understanding those sources and thinking critically about whether or not they actually back up their arguments.

It is, as the video suggests, more about the ritual of being able to point to something to validate their beliefs, regardless of whether it's credible or not, or if it actually claims what they say it does. The sources are a shield for their bigotry.

Step 1: Post facts with sources

That's literally it.

If you threaten them or call them names, they will feel vindicated in their persecution complexes. But if you prove them wrong with facts, they will block you instantly because being proven wrong bruises their ego and they can't cope with it.

Because your "points" have nothing to back them up.

Even your dismissing of "Reddit" as a source is manipulative and deceptive. Because what's usually being cited isn't just a random anonymous Redditor. It's actual psychologists who are actively running studies into endogenic plurality!

The r/tulpas AMA was written by two of the doctors behind this study:

And it's discussing their work on a new fMRI study for Stanford University.

These doctors have been in frequent contact with the r/tulpas community, and their identities have been verified by the subreddit mods.

People aren't citing random anonymous Redditors. They're citing named doctors whose credentials can be easily researched. Doctors who have met tulpamancers in person. Who have studied their brains under fMRIs.

And it's not like those are the only doctors being cited either.

There's also Transgender Mental Health by Eric Yarbrough, which was reviewed and published by the American Psychiatric Association.

There's the World Health Organization's ICD-11.

I could go on and on...

After coming onto my post!

Who could have possibly predicted that?

systems aren't abusing their littles by acknowledging that alter has the capacity to consent, for them. it's weird as hell to accuse people of being predators because of this as well.

it's all "recover at your own pace" until someone doesn't want what they see as doubles to interact with them because it triggers their psychosis in an unreality way.

it's all "source seperate at your own pace" until someone is delusional about it, then they have to do it immediately or else they get the label of anti recovery.

just because you think the things that trigger people are dumb or stupid and silly, doesn't make it any less of a trigger for people.

or, don't pretend you're a safe space for the psychotic systems of this community. if you're not a safe space, just say that.

many people at the time were expressing their dislike of forcing every single plural to identify as if they had trauma- many found this insulting to themselves, and rightfully so! no one should be forced to identify in a way they don't agree with just to rightfully be a part of a community they already occupy. this obsession with "you can only be plural if you have trauma" has only come about extremely recently. i found out about plurality through the otherkin community. i was actually told about DID by someone in the spiritual plurality community. people don't seem to understand that most non-traumagenic systems have respect for traumagenic systems and don't gatekeep their spaces to prevent us from entering.

older plural spaces on the web like healthymultiplicity accepted all plurals. the goal of the community was to show that you can live as plural and not have it be a tragedy or something to "fix". if anything, folks with dissociative disorders owe a LOT to non-traumagenic systems for pushing to normalize plurality without implying that we HAVE to integrate our headmates and try to stop being plural. a huge part of the early online plural community was there to push that plurals can and do live happy lives and shouldn't view their plurality as a bad thing

it's not going to make singlet society see us in a better light. it's not going to get people to understand plurality better. it's not going to get us better mental health resources. it's not going to improve the quality of care for dissociative and traumagenic systems. all you're doing is bullying someone else that you don't understand simply because you don't agree with them.

you're not going to recover from your trauma or understand your own plurality better by denying the existence of other types of plurality. you're not "making the community safer" by gatekeeping. telling other people how their brains work is policing their identities. whether or not you want to accept it, if you forcefully kick endos out of plural spaces, you are the cop you claim to hate.

for context I'm german and have been in trauma therapy in germany for many years starting as a young adult.

I came to learning about plurality from learning about and being part of trauma support forums and then through meeting DID systems in trauma psych wards (before being diagnosed with it myself) and I heard about endos later, and kinda... thought they were the underdogs? and the niche group that no one heard about our knew was real whereas of course DID and traumagenic systems are real and while still not well understood and treated, any trauma therapist worth their salt will at least understand the basics.

that's what I used to think.

then I talked with a british friend and they said over there, therapists will literally tell systems that they probably don't have any trauma and that they should definitely keep putting up with their abusive families and some ppl are just plural it's fine don't worry about all your trauma symptoms.

and it blew my mind that professionals would apparently hold those views. and how utterly horrifying it is to think of systems who GO TO THERAPY BECAUSE OF TRAUMA to be met with that attitude. cause ALL medical professionals and even laypeople I talked to about plurality in germany agreed that I was right in fleeing my family and also took my trauma seriously. there was still a lot wrong with therapy but that's for a different post.

it's like. pushing "you have to openly and publicly identify as your ENTIRE EXISTANCE (as a headmate) being only and solely due to trauma before you even get access to spaces that might be essential for you to learn about plurality" is bad and toxic and dangerous.

and so is minimising ppls trauma or pushing them to accept abuse/abusers or feeding into ppls denial about having trauma when they are showing obvious symptoms of trauma and/or questioning whether they have it.

but I just... feel like there's no inherent conflict here???

like I do think encouraging ppl in general and systems/quesstioning systems to explore the possibility of having trauma and normalising basic trauma coping skills and 101 knowledge about trauma and how to spot abusers and supporting ppl in getting away from abusers ESPECIALLY IF FAMILY - I think all that is good. and it doesn't require being dicks to ppl/systems who don't have trauma or don't talk about it publicly or even those who are in denial.

And then proceeds to:

Add the "endos f#$k off" tag in every one of their posts

Make a WHOLE GODDAMN BLOG just to hate on us

Make the most relatable posts about systems and then writing "endos dni"

Send us d3ath treats

Call us names

And many other things.

No one is attacking you. No one is abusing you. No one is "destroying our community". It's because we are a part of the plural community. And no one can change that, no matter how much you hate us.

There are three types? Ooh! Is this going to be about my Headmate Foundations model?

Oh... Nope. I guess that would have required braincells.

I'm just going to assume that "factive disorder" is a Medically Unrecognized Disorder that involves forming a lot of introjects of real people. 🤷‍♀️

Wait! No! Please tell me all about this disorder I've never heard of!

Open the can of worms! 🙏

I believe they meant "factitious disorder" but it's not a typo when it happens twice. It's having no idea what you're talking about.

Like????

There are no examples given here.

Is your research in the room with us?

Anyway, this is false.

The most popular endogenic community is the tulpamancy community, and it's been the subject of extensive research.

For anyone who doesn't know, tulpamancy is a primarily psychological practice that involves creating headmates. It has been acknowledged as a real psychological phenomenon by multiple doctors, including Dr. Samuel Veissiere, a psychiatry professor at McGill University, who wrote the following paper on tulpamancy.

There is also an ongoing study conducted by Dr. Michael Lifshitz that has shown neurological changes during partial possession in tulpamancy.

The existence of tulpamancy, a practice of creating headmates, has been acknowledged by multiple doctors.

Absolutely no doctors have ever claimed that it's fake.

Way to undercut your whole argument with that last line!

Anyway, in one study of tulpamancers, 78% reported positive impacts on their mental health, and 91% reported positive impacts on their overall lives.

So tulpamancy is obviously beneficial according to these statistics.

And when the OP is even admitting they'd be worse off as a singlet (and a majority of people with DID have expressed that they'd miss their alters if they were gone), I just don't think this argument has any merit at all.

Wanting to be a system is perfectly valid.

What the Hell do you consider "actual" endogenic systems???

You mean like, people who were born as systems?

So... not that either???

What then???

That's... trauma...

I mean, bullying isn't necessarily going to be traumatic for everyone but you're describing bullying that's severe enough to cause PTSD symptoms.

If the only endogenic systems you support are the ones whose systems were caused by trauma, then you aren't pro-endo.

Are you SURE your aren't a troll blog??????

Because somehow, calling yourself "pro-endo" while the only "endogenic" systems you believe in are ones you don't think their trauma is valid enough to count as real trauma is the worst possible position in all of syscourse!

Ugh! Do you even know enough of plural history to realize that the endogenic community branched out of the natural multiples? People who believed their multiplicity was entirely natural???

Did you know you can see it on brain scans?? Isn't that cool?? The ICD includes it!

And for it being created by Pierre Janet, I can find no actual evidence for that being the case besides the book I was referencing, published in 2006. Which for the record is “The Haunted Self: Structural Dissociation and the Treatment of Chronic Traumatization”. And I think Google Ngram proves my point quite beautifully.

Notice the massive spike in 2006, and the fact that the term “structural dissociation” doesn’t appear in any books in Google Books before 1950, three years after Pierre Janet’s death. And before 2006, very few of the books have anything to do with DID. So yeah, it was made up by the authors, and they attributed it to Janet to backdate their hypothesis.

Here's a couple of the scan studies.

For Janet, have you tried just... googling "Pierre Janet structural dissociation"? And just reading through the absurd amount of articles that come up? Like this guy?

Or this one? (pdf, careful on phone)

Or this?

Or just checking out biographies? Or this one?

Or these?

You could also go read Janet's stuff directly yourself. You understand that the vast majority of his stuff is in French, right? It's not the name (though, yes, it is), it's the concept that's been refined over the last century.

Like, now you're getting into conspiracy territory, where three doctors convinced other doctors in the past to also attribute this theory to Janet. Wouldn't that be so crazy if it were real, though?

Like, one of the above ones is from 2001, here's 1996

Here's 1989 (pdf)

Edit: you're still not understanding that the ToSD isn't plurality in children, the age cutoff is different for everyone, I've cited doctors that say it's as old as 16, it depends on so many factors

And the paragraph where you literally said that people can’t develop DID after 8

Here's the guy who says it's 16, posted by me on my blog

In that post, I was specifically referencing that bit of research

I don't have to agree with everything. We are looking at the larger picture, in TYPICAL development, and in development generally, this is how it works, with wiggle room for various factors

Also, what are you talking about???

And I quote

This is the RESULT of structural dissociation happening, in action, structural dissociation doesn't mean people have alters or states, it's what happens to the personality when faced with trauma

There ARE higher rates of CDDs in people with developmental disorders (especially autism, ADHD, and OCD), I suggest googling "neurodevelopmental disorders and dissociative identity disorder", I'm tired of doing work for you

The problem is definitely everyone else and their mothers' brain scans, not you

Like how did we even get here, from the tosd is [not] the Haunted Self, to,

"Yeah, we're different, these numbers are general AND variable, but typically and likely eventually--"

"How DARE you assume I'm neurotypical"

Am I actually supposed to care? Like, cool story, sucks to be you. Genuinely, I don't give two fucking shits, no one here is your therapist and no one wants to hear it, and you should honestly be ashamed for presenting information that no one fucking asked for. Boring. I'm uninterested in your history. You don't get to use your trauma as an excuse to behave the way you do.

Do you think you're the only person who's had a bad experience with psychiatry?

Hey, why don't YOU try doing something to make a change, rather than spouting bullshit and throwing a hissy fit when you're proven wrong about something you easily could have googled.

Sorry you're so jaded that you can't imagine that people actually want to help others because of their own bad experiences.

WE MADE ONTO SYSTEMS CRINGE LET’S GOOOOOOOO!