KindORB

literally every credible doctor and biologist and dietitian: 

also, as someone who ACTUALLY contributed to the update on the harvard source you listed, we focus our studies on how to safely transition into a vegetarian/vegan diet by using different types of supplements to balance your diet when you can’t get it from dairy or meat:

“People who follow a vegetarian diet and especially a vegan diet may be at risk of getting insufficient vitamin D and vitamin K, both needed for bone health. Although green leafy vegetables contain some vitamin K, vegans may also need to rely on fortified foods, including some types of soy milk, rice milk, organic orange juice, and breakfast cereals. They may also want to consider taking a vitamin D2 supplement (vitamin D3 comes from animals).”

The citation you are giving is basically saying that a plant-based diet need to be well-planned in order to be healthy, which is the case for every diet, including the ones with animal products. All nutrients can be obtained in sufficient quantities in a plant-based diet, with or without complements (including B12 in nori), according to most health organizations as you can see in the link provided by justanotherveganasshole in the previous answer. So a plant-based diet can be perfectly healthy.

Next time an anti-vegan asshole claims vegans push their lifestyle on others, I might actually scream.

her children will Never be able to live without their parents…

they cant walk

brain damage due to lack of Protien

the human brain NEEDS PROTIEN

I have been around vegans and vegos for over 30 years..

they are not always the healthiest people

while I dont eat Red meat i will have chicken ( free range) and fish

While Pregnant ( 4 times ) I have followed a healthy diet of meat,fruit,vegies and no sugar drinks…

We all do what we have to

But if you are a

Vegan and plan to have children

PLEASE

TAKE IRON Tables… your childs whole life and your can be totally changed if you dont..

The Dr dealing with the young mum is about to have her put up on Child Abuse charges….

We are all working together for a postivve outcome

but nothing will change the mental health of these 3 children

their brains have been deprived vital PROTien

the brain is one of the first things to develop when in utro…

lack of protien starves the brain…

While I LOVE animals

There is plenty ways to get enough proteins on a plant-based diet, there is nothing special about proteins from animal products, they are made of the same amino acids and getting the right amounts of amino acids with a plant-based diet is not something particularly difficult.

Even if there were some instances where vegans would not be healthy, it could only means that their diet wasn’t well planned, not that a plant-based diet is inherently unhealthy. There are plenty instances of people eating meat and other animal products that are extremely unhealthy because of what they eat and it doesn’t make an argument against consuming animal products just because of it, even if there is however some arguments to be made concerning health and animal products since for example there is LDL cholesterol in animal products which serves no purpose for human health but often causes arteriosclerosis.

The boys’ stories are sickeningly graphic. Before beatings, the boys say they were stripped naked and tied up. They were then pummeled with a variety of weapons, from fists and feet to belts and whips. In the film, some of the boys get up and imitate the beatings. Others stand to reveal hundreds of scars lining their backs and torsos—some still bloody and scabbed. They get quiet when the filmmakers ask whether any are beaten today and say some are simply “taken away.”

It’s. 

http://science.time.com/2013/09/12/honeybees-are-still-hurting-but-backyard-and-rooftop-beekeepers-can-help/

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/silence-of-the-bees-how-can-you-help-the-bees/36/

https://beecare.bayer.com/what-you-can-do/beekeepers-and-farmers

http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/apimondia_1.html

I would also like to mention that the source for artificial insemination and such literally states that it is for the purpose of immunization to diseases and mites so that the chances of bees being killed by such diseases and mites lessens.

Also, no beekeeper is taught to hurt their bees. The burning is a much rarer practice (only in the north) because Beekeepers depend on their bee’s health and safety. Apiaries provide protection, and often times make sure that their hives are sustainable. Honey extraction processes rarely hurt bees, and most Beekeepers (the local ones, really) care deeply about the needs of their bees. Just because they’re making a profit doesn’t mean they are horrible human beings.

Although honeybees are only a small fraction of pollinators, their survival is still important, and because they are so susceptible to disease, beekeeping is vital.

Anyway, I’d like to hear what you have to say about agave nectar as well.

For example, from a study in California: “This pattern suggests that B. occidentalis colonies exposed to competition with Apis experienced increased nectar scarcity and responded by reallocating foragers from pollen to nectar collection, resulting in lowered rates of larval production. These results provide evidence that Apis competitively suppresses a native social bee known to be an important pollinator, with the potential for cascading effects on native plant communities.”

From a study in the UK: “Diseases that are common in managed honeybee colonies are now widespread in the UK’s wild bumblebees […] Our results suggest that emerging diseases, spread from managed bees, may be an important cause of wild bee decline.”

Of course, the species apis mellifera and apis cerana, the ones used by beekeepers to make honey, are important species, but they are important only where they are supposed to be. They are native to Europe, Asia and Africa and have nothing to do in America or Australia, but even where they are native they are not supposed to be everywhere and in such numbers. And those two species, as opposed to many native species of bees, aren’t endangered.

It’s. 

http://science.time.com/2013/09/12/honeybees-are-still-hurting-but-backyard-and-rooftop-beekeepers-can-help/

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/silence-of-the-bees-how-can-you-help-the-bees/36/

https://beecare.bayer.com/what-you-can-do/beekeepers-and-farmers

http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/apimondia_1.html

I would also like to mention that the source for artificial insemination and such literally states that it is for the purpose of immunization to diseases and mites so that the chances of bees being killed by such diseases and mites lessens.

Also, no beekeeper is taught to hurt their bees. The burning is a much rarer practice (only in the north) because Beekeepers depend on their bee’s health and safety. Apiaries provide protection, and often times make sure that their hives are sustainable. Honey extraction processes rarely hurt bees, and most Beekeepers (the local ones, really) care deeply about the needs of their bees. Just because they’re making a profit doesn’t mean they are horrible human beings.

Although honeybees are only a small fraction of pollinators, their survival is still important, and because they are so susceptible to disease, beekeeping is vital.

Anyway, I’d like to hear what you have to say about agave nectar as well.

For example, from a study in California: “This pattern suggests that B. occidentalis colonies exposed to competition with Apis experienced increased nectar scarcity and responded by reallocating foragers from pollen to nectar collection, resulting in lowered rates of larval production. These results provide evidence that Apis competitively suppresses a native social bee known to be an important pollinator, with the potential for cascading effects on native plant communities.”

From a study in the UK: “Diseases that are common in managed honeybee colonies are now widespread in the UK’s wild bumblebees […] Our results suggest that emerging diseases, spread from managed bees, may be an important cause of wild bee decline.”

Of course, the species apis mellifera and apis cerana, the ones used by beekeepers to make honey, are important species, but they are important only where they are supposed to be. They are native to Europe, Asia and Africa and have nothing to do in America or Australia, but even where they are native they are not supposed to be everywhere and in such numbers. And those two species, as opposed to many native species of bees, aren’t endangered.

People like you, actually, are the reason children are dying. For example, an Italian baby is severely malnourished when put on a vegan diet. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/11/italian-baby-fed-vegan-diet-hospitalized-for-malnutrition/?utm_term=.68dec69f52b0)

A baby. They don’t really consume meat. So why? Because dairies and complex fats, which are found in meat, are important for the growth of children. There are several more cases of course, one, interestingly enough, with breastfeeding included, meaning the mother herself was also likely malnourished.

An instance in breastfeeding http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/baby-breastfed-by-vegan-mother-dies/

Here is a disgusting article defending veganism, in no way providing a real solution, and telling vegans they should avoid killing babies, BECAUSE IT HURTS THE MOVEMENT. http://veganstrategist.org/2016/08/11/dead-vegan-babies-and-rational-responses/

B12 is actually bioavailable in nori. Not that taking supplements is unhealthy, even if it wasn’t available in plants it wouldn’t matter, what matters is to get all the nutrients you need.

2. about taurine

“It may be inferred, therefore, from the present study that adult man has a considerable capacity to synthesize taurine. A diet devoid of preformed taurine does not appear to be harmful, since clinical studies on vegans suggest that their health differs little from that of omnivores (Ellis & Montegriffo, 1970; Sanders, 1978).”

3. about vitamin A

A cup of carrots will literally give you enough beta-carotene to convert it in more vitamin A that the daily recommended intake. The same goes for a single sweat potato. As long as you’re eating enough fruits and vegetables, you will get enough vitamin A.

On the other hand, getting too much vitamin A in its retinol form by eating meat is associated with diseases such as osteoporosis. It’s because retinol is toxic in high doses (whereas beta carotene isn’t). People actually eat in average too much vitamin A in western countries (which is a problem because most of it is from its retinol form).

4. about plant-based diet not being good for children

As for the “plants feel pain” classic, you’ve again completely misunderstood what veganism is. We object to the consumption of sentient life; plants are not sentient under any reasonable definition of the word. Even if they were, that would still in no way justify choosing to eat animals instead of plants where a choice exists between the two. 

For this argument to make sense, we would have to be willing to accept that plants are even more sentient than animals are. We would then be in a situation where the challenge would be to consume as few plants as possible, however, unfortunately for you, the conclusion of that logic would be that we all need to go vegan as quickly as possible. This is because we feed considerably more plants to farmed animals than we ever eat ourselves and livestock take in far more calories in crop feed than they will ever give out in meat, meaning that your average omnivorous diet requires significantly more plant “suffering” than a vegan diet does. That isn’t even accounting for the vast swathes of rainforest cut down to make room for animal feed and grazing land for cattle.

“Epidemiological and clinical studies demonstrate that intake of dietary fiber and whole grain is inversely related to obesity, type two diabetes, cancer and cardiovascular disease (CVD)”

Cows, deer, and other ruminants get their energy from grass, which is mostly cellulose, so they need to digest cellulose, but we don’t eat grass, we eat grains, fruits, which are mostly made of sugars.

And no, too much sugar isn’t the problem, and actually the reason why sugar is not a problem in fruits is because it’s surrounded by guess what, cellulose. That’s why fruits juices and soda are bad for your health, they don’t contain any fibers but a lot of sugar. That’s because insoluble dietary fiber regulates blood sugar, which lower risk of diabetes, among other benefits.

By the way, in the US people consume less than 50% of the dietary fiber levels recommended for good health, so most people actually need more dietary fibers, such as cellulose. On the other hand, meat, dairy and eggs don’t contain any dietary fiber (which is actually partly why it’s so bad for your health).

“not much is known about the nervous system of plants to truly determine if they are sentient” Yeah that’s because they don’t have one. Plants don’t have a nervous system.

“I can’t be vegan, I love cheese”

Dairy industry is as evil as meat. No less harm for animals. Does it look natural that calf can’t drink milk so you can taste your piece of cheese? 

That calf is wearing a nose tag. Nose tags are put on calves so that they are able to stay with their mothers longer, but are unable to nurse. They don’t NEED to nurse as they get older, they just get greedier and pushier and will bash up the cow’s udder and bruise it with their noses.

This nose-tag is so that calves can stay with their mothers, their mothers can remain pain-free and healthy, and nobody is stressed.

Also, nose tags like that one don’t go through the cow’s septum.  They basically work like those fake septum rings for humans.

In addition to weaning the calves, another use for nose tags is protecting non-lactating cows.  Sometimes weanlings or even adult cows will suck on themselves or other non-lactating cows; this can cause internal teat scarring bad enough to prevent that teat or teats from ever working.  I’ve seen this happen, and it’s ugly, probably at least somewhat painful, and, if bad enough, would lead to the cow being slaughtered at a very young age because she can’t produce milk, has chronic mastitis, and/or can’t be milked with automatic milking equipment.  So, nose tags actually prevent animal cruelty.

Also that if you really want good quality beef/pork/eggs/milk/etc you don’t abuse your animals. Ever. That’s not the point and if you want to make any kind of money off your career choice, you are going to treat those creatures better than you treat yourself. You’ll call a vet five times for an infection in your herd before you visit the hospital for a missing foot on your own leg. 

Yes, milk produce infinite amount of milk, it’s a known fact, we totally do not remove the calves within 24 hours in more than 90% of the case according to some vegan extremist with the agenda of what if we didn’t drink milk from a fucking cow oh wait no that’s actually a stat from the United States Department of Agriculture

“Managed honey bee colonies supplement the work of natural wild pollinators, not the other way around. In a study of 41 different crop systems worldwide, honeybees only increased yield in 14 percent of the crops. Who did all the pollination? Native bees and other insects.”

There is two species of bees beekeepers use to make honey. There is around 20.000 known species of bees.

Apis mellifera and apis cerana, the only two species kept by beekeepers for making honey, aren’t native to the American continent, but even where it is native like in Europe and Asia it’s not supposed to be everywhere and in such great numbers. Because of competition and diseases, the result of their introduction or increase is the decline of the pollinators already here (such as the other species of bees), which are often better pollinators and are able to pollinate every plants in the ecosystem they are in, which is not the case of apis mellifera or/and apis cerana.

From a study in Australia : “In contrast, native bees were more than three times more abundant at the few sites where honeybees were absent, compared to those where they were present.”

From a study in Israel : “The results provide partial evidence for behavioral competition between honeybees and native bees. For this reason, we recommend prohibiting introduction of beehives to all nature reserves in Israel, as a precaution aimed at protecting the native bee fauna. This may help conserve their contribution to biodiversity and pollination of common and rare native plants as well as crops.”

From a study in California : “This pattern suggests that B. occidentalis colonies exposed to competition with Apis experienced increased nectar scarcity and responded by reallocating foragers from pollen to nectar collection, resulting in lowered rates of larval production. These results provide evidence that Apis competitively suppresses a native social bee known to be an important pollinator, with the potential for cascading effects on native plant communities.”

The introduction of apis mellifera or apis cerana is also causing other species of pollinators to get diseases. While beekeepers try to protect their hives from it, the native pollinators aren’t protected at all.

“Diseases that are common in managed honeybee colonies are now widespread in the UK’s wild bumblebees […] Our results suggest that emerging diseases, spread from managed bees, may be an important cause of wild bee decline.”

Native species already suffer from pesticides and habitat loss and you’re only aggravating the situation by buying honey.

Apis mellifera and apis cerana aren’t endangered species of bee, and they shouldn’t even exist in a lot of places. Native pollinators, on the other hand, such as the thousands of other bee species, are the one in actual danger of extinction, and some of them are already believed to be extinct.

“The studies show conclusively that biodiversity has a direct measurable value for food production and that a few managed species cannot compensate for the biodiversity on which we depend.”

As for the “plants feel pain” classic, you’ve again completely misunderstood what veganism is. We object to the consumption of sentient life; plants are not sentient under any reasonable definition of the word. Even if they were, that would still in no way justify choosing to eat animals instead of plants where a choice exists between the two. 

For this argument to make sense, we would have to be willing to accept that plants are even more sentient than animals are. We would then be in a situation where the challenge would be to consume as few plants as possible, however, unfortunately for you, the conclusion of that logic would be that we all need to go vegan as quickly as possible. This is because we feed considerably more plants to farmed animals than we ever eat ourselves and livestock take in far more calories in crop feed than they will ever give out in meat, meaning that your average omnivorous diet requires significantly more plant “suffering” than a vegan diet does. That isn’t even accounting for the vast swathes of rainforest cut down to make room for animal feed and grazing land for cattle.

By the way, as the name suggest, cellulase allows to digest cellulose, but the inability to digest cellulose doesn’t mean that we aren’t able to get nutrients from fruits, vegetables and grains such as glucose for instance. Since we can’t digest it, cellulose for us serve as fiber. Animals that need to digest cellulose are the ones that literally eat grass, but it might surprise you vegans don’t happen to be ruminants.

“a truly vegan diet” doesn’t require any supplementing, there is literally zero vitamins or amino acids that can’t be obtained though plant-based food (yes, including B12, in nori). Not that supplementing is unhealthy, what matters is to get all the nutrients you need.

what you eat has a huge impact, and doesn’t just affect you anymore.

Hey dumbass: If veganism is unnatural and unhealthy, then why am I perfectly healthy? Why are vegetarians and vegans, on average, much healthier than people who eat a standard American diet???

I’m answering the two of these together because they’re the same question, repeated slightly differently. The answer is: You’re not.

No one can survive on a plant-based diet. We cannot manufacture B12, and the so-called “plant-based” sources of B12, it turns out, don’t produce it in a form we can digest.

B12 is found in all animal products.

Additionally, although humans can manufacture taurine (only found in meat), not all of us can manufacture enough taurine. This is why some people get sick when they go vegetarian.

To survive on a vegan diet you need to artificially supplement B12 and possibly taurine. Period.

A diet that requires artificial supplementation is, by definition, unhealthy. And while the cost of vegan B12 supplements is low, when you’re already paying more for your food… Taurine supplementation, if you happen to be one of the people who needs it, is another added expense and hassle. A few vegans have also found it necessary to supplement carnitine, which is considerably more expensive. Oh, and most vegans don’t get enough calcium and end up with bone problems. Many are also Vitamin D deficient, especially if living at high latitudes, if dark skinned, or if religiously using sunscreen. And Vitamin D2 (plant derived) is not as easily absorbed as D3 (which ONLY comes from animals), so you need even more of it.

If eating meat is so healthy than why does eating saturated fat (not found in plant food) cause diabetes, heart disease and cancer?? (sic)

If consumed in moderation, it doesn’t. Hell, anything that isn’t consumed in moderation is unhealthy for you. You drink too much water, you get hypertremia. You inhale too much pure oxygen, you end up with  hyperoxia.

Eating a hot dog does the same for your body as smoking 5 cigarettes.

Even though I know this is false as hell, I’d love to see your citation for this claim.

Get your facts straight.

Further irony.

Also for the first dumbass - animal agriculture is the leading cause of ocean dead zones and water consumption.

False as well.  There are many physical, chemical, and biological factors that combine to create dead zones, but nutrient pollution (Which comes from plant farming)  is the primary cause of those zones created by humans. Excess nutrients that run off land or are piped as wastewater into rivers and coasts can stimulate an overgrowth of algae, which then sinks and decomposes in the water. The decomposition process consumes oxygen and depletes the supply available to healthy marine life.

First of all, let’s start with the fact that most health organizations, such as the American Dietetic Association, The Dietitians Association of Australia or the British National Health Service, state that a plant-based diet is healthy.

1. about B12

B12 is actually bioavailable in nori. Not that taking supplements is unhealthy, even if it wasn’t available in plants it wouldn’t matter, what matters is to get all the nutrients you need.

2. about taurine

“It may be inferred, therefore, from the present study that adult man has a considerable capacity to synthesize taurine. A diet devoid of preformed taurine does not appear to be harmful, since clinical studies on vegans suggest that their health differs little from that of omnivores (Ellis & Montegriffo, 1970; Sanders, 1978).”

3. about calcium

“The present results indicate that calcium balance and a marker of bone turnover are not affected significantly when calcium is provided either solely by plant foods or by a diet including dairy products, despite the significantly different calcium intake levels in the diets.”

3. About veganism being expensive

What makes most of a plant-based diet is what those who eat animal products already eat, such as wheat products, beans, vegetables, nuts, fruits, etc. Those products are less expensive than meat, dairy and eggs. As for supplements for B12 if you find it more practical than eating nori often, you can find them around 15$ for a year, so it doesn’t seems to be too expensive considering that you will spend much less money by not buying meat, dairy and eggs. They also usually provide Vitamin D.

4. About comparisons between smoking and eating meat

Considering that there is only cholesterol in animal products and that it’s responsible for causing arteriosclerosis, which is also a possible consequence of smoking even if it’s not because of cholesterol in this case, it isn’t an absurd comparison. Also concerning cancers, since there is lower rates of cancer among vegans. Both smoking and eating animals are linked to multiple same diseases that could be avoided by not smoking and/or not eating animals.

5. about animal agriculture likely to be the leading cause to dead zones

Because beekeepers are contributing to the decline of native pollinators, which are way more important than a single non-native specie of bee.

“Managed honey bee colonies supplement the work of natural wild pollinators, not the other way around. In a study of 41 different crop systems worldwide, honeybees only increased yield in 14 percent of the crops. Who did all the pollination? Native bees and other insects.”

Apis mellifera, the specie kept by beekeepers for making honey, isn’t a native specie to the American continent, but even where it is native it’s not supposed to be everywhere and in such great numbers. The result of their introduction is the decline of the pollinators already here, which are often better pollinators and are able to pollinate every plants in the ecosystem they are in, which is not the case of apis mellifera.

From a study in Australia : “In contrast, native bees were more than three times more abundant at the few sites where honeybees were absent, compared to those where they were present.”

From a study in Israel : “The results provide partial evidence for behavioral competition between honeybees and native bees. For this reason, we recommend prohibiting introduction of beehives to all nature reserves in Israel, as a precaution aimed at protecting the native bee fauna. This may help conserve their contribution to biodiversity and pollination of common and rare native plants as well as crops.”

From a study in California : “This pattern suggests that B. occidentalis colonies exposed to competition with Apis experienced increased nectar scarcity and responded by reallocating foragers from pollen to nectar collection, resulting in lowered rates of larval production. These results provide evidence that Apis competitively suppresses a native social bee known to be an important pollinator, with the potential for cascading effects on native plant communities.”

The introduction of apis mellifera is also causing other species of pollinators to get diseases. While beekeepers try to protect their hives from it, the native pollinators aren’t protected at all.

“Diseases that are common in managed honeybee colonies are now widespread in the UK’s wild bumblebees […] Our results suggest that emerging diseases, spread from managed bees, may be an important cause of wild bee decline.”

Native species already suffer from pesticides and habitat loss and you’re only aggravating the situation by buying honey.

Apis mellifera isn’t an endangered specie of bee, and it shouldn’t even exist in a lot of places. Native pollinators, on the other hand, such as the thousands of other bee species, are the one in actual danger of extinction, and some of them are already believed to be extinct.

You will most likely not find reliable sources online, folks. The real facts are found in books based on studies done by actual melittologists and apiculturists, my dudes. If you want, I can recommend you a few :)

So, your entire argument has been about apis mellifera, the European honeybee. You seem to be using apis mellifera and honeybee interchangeably. It’s like the squares and rectangles. Yes! Apis mellifera is a species of honeybees!! No! Not all honeybees are apis mellifera!!

That said, 14% of pollination done by what you think are honeybees (aka apis mellifera) is pretty damn good! But! I can assure you, HONEYBEES make up more than that. What are honey bees? The e n t i r e GENUS of APIS!!!!!

What do you mean when you say native pollinators? The butterflies, bats, other insects?? Or do you mean the species of honeybees native to certain areas? If it’s the latter….

The introduction of different species of honeybees is not a new concept! We started playing God in the frickin 1600s with that shit. This ain’t new, y'all. The SERIOUS decline started in 2006 when 30% of bee populations across the globe straight up disappeared. That became known as Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD), which is the biggest threat next to pesticides. The diseases that were spread to other species that were not immune to them were a problem at the beginning…in the 17th fucking century. Honeybees have evolved enough since then. Also, apis mellifera was not the only species to be moved around. Apis mellifera is not the only species being kept by beekeepers. So…….☕️🐸

No one has solid proof of the cause of CCD. There are only theories so far! Some think the bees are disappearing due to stress. The stress could be caused by many things, and it doesn’t just have to be one thing!! It could be global warming, pesticides, etc.

Here’s what I personally think could be a thing…. in our hives, we’ve noticed that it’s not just the disappearance of bees. There are far fewer larvae in the hive than we used to have. This has been with many different hives over years. Pesticides are known to mess with the fertility of queens, so I think this might be one of the causes of CCD. I really hope some more research is done on this in particular. Anyway, the populations of HONEYBEES have been declining by roughly 30% each year since 2006, and this is not sustainable!!

Here’s the thing… if you’re so concerned about just diseases, maybe you should be concerned with pests in beehives too. They are equally threatening, but I don’t see anyone signing petitions to forcibly cause the extinction of mites and wax moths 👀. But in all seriousness, the pests and diseases can be treated if they are caught early enough.

Also, BUY HONEY FROM YOUR LOCAL BEEKEEPERS. Want to know why? Honey from YOUR AREA will help with allergies at home because the bees are pollinating and getting nectar from plants in YOUR AREA. This also helps support beekeepers to keep doing what they’re doing. This helps keep bees in YOUR AREA to keep plants in YOUR AREA alive!!! Another thing, honey is antibacterial and can be used topically to treat acne, burns, and other wounds. Honey is a probiotic!! Propolis is used as tarnish for stringed instruments, such as the cello. Pollen can be harvested from hives as well, which is used in medicine btw. Also, beeswax has MANY uses.

By disregarding what is happening to the bees, you are killing them off! The only reason we haven’t completely lost honeybees yet is because beekeepers, like myself, have been keeping them alive! We may not be able to stop CCD, but we have been able to keep our hives from dying off as fast as they would in the wild. Wild bees are not dying because of beekeepers. They are dying because they don’t have beekeepers.

The scientific articles confirm what i’m saying, i’ve provided links to actual peer-reviewed scientific studies, so the science is on my side of the argument. You can find reliable sources online, as long as you go to scientific sources. Google Scholar for instance will allow you to search content among scientific articles. You, you have books apparently, which you don’t even cite to prove your points, well good for you, but that’s not how reliability works. I am interested in any studies or “books based on studies" that would disprove my point about managed bee colonies contributing to the decline of wild bees, but as i said i’ve provided multiple studies showing the opposite, so i doubt that there is contradicting studies on that point.

I do have made a mistake however, which is about apis mellifera being the only specie kept by beekeepers, because there is also apis cerana, so you’re right about that.

There is seven species we recognize as honeybees. There is two of those honeybee species beekeepers use to make honey. There is around 20.000 known species of bees. Which means beekeepers maintain or increase the populations of two species out of 20.000 species of bees.

“That said, 14% of pollination done by what you think are honeybees (aka apis mellifera) is pretty damn good! But! I can assure you, HONEYBEES make up more than that.”

You didn’t understand two things, first the study talk about managed honeybee colonies, so this is about the species beekeepers keep, other species of honeybees aren’t kept by beekeepers, so i don’t see where you going with that. Secondly, they don’t do 14% of pollination, it’s just that when we introduce managed honeybee colonies to crops they increased pollination by 14% in average. We don’t need managed honeybee colonies to pollinate in all places, and if it is needed to introduce pollinators to crops to help pollination, some other species of bees, such as the red mason bee, are way more efficient in that regard (and have already been used in that purpose in many crops).

“Here’s the thing… if you’re so concerned about just diseases, maybe you should be concerned with pests in beehives too. They are equally threatening, but I don’t see anyone signing petitions to forcibly cause the extinction of mites and wax moths 👀.”

Well we usually refers to pests as diseases. So there’s that. And uh, well, as the scientific study i’ve linked in my previous answer, the introduction of honeybees is responsible for pests in other species of bees. So that does mean that we need to stop introducing them in ecosystems they aren’t.

“The only reason we haven’t completely lost honeybees yet is because beekeepers, like myself, have been keeping them alive!”

So i assume you are talking about the seven species of honeybees here since you wanted to correct me earlier on this point? Because if that’s the case no you’re just increasing the population of apis mellifera and apis cerana, two specie out of the seven species of honeybees, out of the 20.000 species of bees.

“We may not be able to stop CCD, but we have been able to keep our hives from dying off as fast as they would in the wild. Wild bees are not dying because of beekeepers. They are dying because they don’t have beekeepers.”

No they are dying because we are killing them with pesticides, habitat loss and competition from apis mellifera and apis cerena. We need them all and you can’t solve the problem by protecting only two species, specially since you’re actually aggravating the situation since in result it contribute to the decline of the other species of bees. Beekeeping is contributing to the decline of bees because of competition by increasing populations of only two species among 20.000 species of bees (which once again aren’t even native in America and Australia, but even in Europe, Asia and Africa they aren’t supposed to be in such numbers and in that many places).

“The studies show conclusively that biodiversity has a direct measurable value for food production and that a few managed species cannot compensate for the biodiversity on which we depend.”

Anyway, a lot of these studies that you are reading are being funded by industrialized agricultural companies or vegans who want to feel validated for not buying honey. The scientific researches funded by these companies spit out these “facts” just so they can get away with using pesticides and/or deforestation. They don’t care about any of the species. They only care about profit.

Wanna know why apis mellifera was taken pretty much anywhere? It is the most versatile species. It has the ability to adapt to cold and hot climates. Most of the different Asian species are not as versatile. What they do is still important. All of the species are important. Just because one species is more adaptable does not make them monsters.

Again…moving around different species of apis started in the 17th century, so competition and spread of diseases isn’t the SOURCE of the RECENT decline.

Apis mellifera is not the problem.

We don’t know if apis mellifera didn’t caused already in the 17th century native bee species extinctions, it wouldn’t be something impossible, species brought from an another continent are a common threat for native species, and it’s not like we knew every species of bees in the 17th century or that we were even looking for decline in populations or extinction of species of bees.

For example, in the 18th century, the Tahiti sandpaper, which was a specie of bird, became extinct following the introduction of rats in the Society Islands.

In the 17th century, diseases were brought by Europeans resulted in extensive death among Native Americans, it is likely that diseases brought by species brought by Europeans impacted native species as well.

You said bee decline started in the 20th century but that’s when we started to observed it in managed bee colonies, that doesn’t mean that wild bees weren’t declining before because of the introduction of honeybees.

Also i assume it is in the later half of the 20th century when we started to massively increase honeybee populations, so even if the numbers of honeybees didn’t have as much effect on native species in the 17th century that doesn’t mean that the numbers of honeybees we have now aren’t a problem.

I didn’t only pick the studies that were confirming the dangers of the increase of managed bee colonies to native species of bees, i didn’t find any study on this subject that was saying the opposite. Every studies that i have found show that there is competition that put at risk native species. And that’s not even considering the diseases transmitted from the implemented species to the native species, which according to the study about pests transmitted from apis mellifera to bumblebees in the UK, "may be an important cause of wild bee decline”.

Because beekeepers are contributing to the decline of native pollinators, which are way more important than a single non-native specie of bee.

“Managed honey bee colonies supplement the work of natural wild pollinators, not the other way around. In a study of 41 different crop systems worldwide, honeybees only increased yield in 14 percent of the crops. Who did all the pollination? Native bees and other insects.”

Apis mellifera, the specie kept by beekeepers for making honey, isn’t a native specie to the American continent, but even where it is native it’s not supposed to be everywhere and in such great numbers. The result of their introduction is the decline of the pollinators already here, which are often better pollinators and are able to pollinate every plants in the ecosystem they are in, which is not the case of apis mellifera.

From a study in Australia : “In contrast, native bees were more than three times more abundant at the few sites where honeybees were absent, compared to those where they were present.”

From a study in Israel : “The results provide partial evidence for behavioral competition between honeybees and native bees. For this reason, we recommend prohibiting introduction of beehives to all nature reserves in Israel, as a precaution aimed at protecting the native bee fauna. This may help conserve their contribution to biodiversity and pollination of common and rare native plants as well as crops.”

From a study in California : “This pattern suggests that B. occidentalis colonies exposed to competition with Apis experienced increased nectar scarcity and responded by reallocating foragers from pollen to nectar collection, resulting in lowered rates of larval production. These results provide evidence that Apis competitively suppresses a native social bee known to be an important pollinator, with the potential for cascading effects on native plant communities.”

The introduction of apis mellifera is also causing other species of pollinators to get diseases. While beekeepers try to protect their hives from it, the native pollinators aren’t protected at all.

“Diseases that are common in managed honeybee colonies are now widespread in the UK’s wild bumblebees […] Our results suggest that emerging diseases, spread from managed bees, may be an important cause of wild bee decline.”

Native species already suffer from pesticides and habitat loss and you’re only aggravating the situation by buying honey.

Apis mellifera isn’t an endangered specie of bee, and it shouldn’t even exist in a lot of places. Native pollinators, on the other hand, such as the thousands of other bee species, are the one in actual danger of extinction, and some of them are already believed to be extinct.

You will most likely not find reliable sources online, folks. The real facts are found in books based on studies done by actual melittologists and apiculturists, my dudes. If you want, I can recommend you a few :)

So, your entire argument has been about apis mellifera, the European honeybee. You seem to be using apis mellifera and honeybee interchangeably. It’s like the squares and rectangles. Yes! Apis mellifera is a species of honeybees!! No! Not all honeybees are apis mellifera!!

That said, 14% of pollination done by what you think are honeybees (aka apis mellifera) is pretty damn good! But! I can assure you, HONEYBEES make up more than that. What are honey bees? The e n t i r e GENUS of APIS!!!!!

What do you mean when you say native pollinators? The butterflies, bats, other insects?? Or do you mean the species of honeybees native to certain areas? If it’s the latter….

The introduction of different species of honeybees is not a new concept! We started playing God in the frickin 1600s with that shit. This ain’t new, y'all. The SERIOUS decline started in 2006 when 30% of bee populations across the globe straight up disappeared. That became known as Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD), which is the biggest threat next to pesticides. The diseases that were spread to other species that were not immune to them were a problem at the beginning…in the 17th fucking century. Honeybees have evolved enough since then. Also, apis mellifera was not the only species to be moved around. Apis mellifera is not the only species being kept by beekeepers. So…….☕️🐸

No one has solid proof of the cause of CCD. There are only theories so far! Some think the bees are disappearing due to stress. The stress could be caused by many things, and it doesn’t just have to be one thing!! It could be global warming, pesticides, etc.

Here’s what I personally think could be a thing…. in our hives, we’ve noticed that it’s not just the disappearance of bees. There are far fewer larvae in the hive than we used to have. This has been with many different hives over years. Pesticides are known to mess with the fertility of queens, so I think this might be one of the causes of CCD. I really hope some more research is done on this in particular. Anyway, the populations of HONEYBEES have been declining by roughly 30% each year since 2006, and this is not sustainable!!

Here’s the thing… if you’re so concerned about just diseases, maybe you should be concerned with pests in beehives too. They are equally threatening, but I don’t see anyone signing petitions to forcibly cause the extinction of mites and wax moths 👀. But in all seriousness, the pests and diseases can be treated if they are caught early enough.

Also, BUY HONEY FROM YOUR LOCAL BEEKEEPERS. Want to know why? Honey from YOUR AREA will help with allergies at home because the bees are pollinating and getting nectar from plants in YOUR AREA. This also helps support beekeepers to keep doing what they’re doing. This helps keep bees in YOUR AREA to keep plants in YOUR AREA alive!!! Another thing, honey is antibacterial and can be used topically to treat acne, burns, and other wounds. Honey is a probiotic!! Propolis is used as tarnish for stringed instruments, such as the cello. Pollen can be harvested from hives as well, which is used in medicine btw. Also, beeswax has MANY uses.

By disregarding what is happening to the bees, you are killing them off! The only reason we haven’t completely lost honeybees yet is because beekeepers, like myself, have been keeping them alive! We may not be able to stop CCD, but we have been able to keep our hives from dying off as fast as they would in the wild. Wild bees are not dying because of beekeepers. They are dying because they don’t have beekeepers.

The scientific articles confirm what i’m saying, i’ve provided links to actual peer-reviewed scientific studies, so the science is on my side of the argument. You can find reliable sources online, as long as you go to scientific sources. Google Scholar for instance will allow you to search content among scientific articles. You, you have books apparently, which you don’t even cite to prove your points, well good for you, but that’s not how reliability works. I am interested in any studies or “books based on studies" that would disprove my point about managed bee colonies contributing to the decline of wild bees, but as i said i’ve provided multiple studies showing the opposite, so i doubt that there is contradicting studies on that point.

I do have made a mistake however, which is about apis mellifera being the only specie kept by beekeepers, because there is also apis cerana, so you’re right about that.

There is seven species we recognize as honeybees. There is two of those honeybee species beekeepers use to make honey. There is around 20.000 known species of bees. Which means beekeepers maintain or increase the populations of two species out of 20.000 species of bees.

“That said, 14% of pollination done by what you think are honeybees (aka apis mellifera) is pretty damn good! But! I can assure you, HONEYBEES make up more than that.”

You didn’t understand two things, first the study talk about managed honeybee colonies, so this is about the species beekeepers keep, other species of honeybees aren’t kept by beekeepers, so i don’t see where you going with that. Secondly, they don’t do 14% of pollination, it’s just that when we introduce managed honeybee colonies to crops they increased pollination by 14% in average. We don’t need managed honeybee colonies to pollinate in all places, and if it is needed to introduce pollinators to crops to help pollination, some other species of bees, such as the red mason bee, are way more efficient in that regard (and have already been used in that purpose in many crops).

“Here’s the thing… if you’re so concerned about just diseases, maybe you should be concerned with pests in beehives too. They are equally threatening, but I don’t see anyone signing petitions to forcibly cause the extinction of mites and wax moths 👀.”

Well we usually refers to pests as diseases. So there’s that. And uh, well, as the scientific study i’ve linked in my previous answer, the introduction of honeybees is responsible for pests in other species of bees. So that does mean that we need to stop introducing them in ecosystems they aren’t.

"The only reason we haven’t completely lost honeybees yet is because beekeepers, like myself, have been keeping them alive!”

So i assume you are talking about the seven species of honeybees here since you wanted to correct me earlier on this point? Because if that’s the case no you’re just increasing the population of apis mellifera and apis cerana, two specie out of the seven species of honeybees, out of the 20.000 species of bees.

“We may not be able to stop CCD, but we have been able to keep our hives from dying off as fast as they would in the wild. Wild bees are not dying because of beekeepers. They are dying because they don’t have beekeepers.”

No they are dying because we are killing them with pesticides, habitat loss and competition from apis mellifera and apis cerena. We need them all and you can’t solve the problem by protecting only two species, specially since you’re actually aggravating the situation since in result it contribute to the decline of the other species of bees. Beekeeping is contributing to the decline of bees because of competition by increasing populations of only two species among 20.000 species of bees (which once again aren’t even native in America and Australia, but even in Europe, Asia and Africa they aren’t supposed to be in such numbers and in that many places).

“The studies show conclusively that biodiversity has a direct measurable value for food production and that a few managed species cannot compensate for the biodiversity on which we depend.”

If we’re to actually save the bees, then these farms are key.

It would be great to save wild bees as well, and I would love it we didn’t use pesticides that have a massive effect on the ecosystem, but I don’t quite see how these things are mutually exclusive.

Now the issue here is that the latter point needs more fighters. That’s a losing battle right now, considering our terrible history of treating the natural environment poorly. But the thing about that is that the other side feel like they have valid reasons to kill the bees; to them, the bees are a genuine nuisaince that bore holes through wood and sting people, never mind the fact that bees play a vital role in in the pollination of plants. In a sense, the adverse effects are more obvious than the benefits. We need to make people think differently on this matter.

Now the former point… Bee Keepers aren’t doing any harm. Bees and Humans coexisting in mutualistic relationship, where the bees are protected from outside harm and are provided warmth, food, and medicine, all the while we get the excess honey they happen to make. This enterprise seems to be one of the few ethical farming practices left.

Which is why I’m confused when I see so many people on tumblr who are anti-honey. Honey’s freakin delicious and makes for a healthier alternative to sugar, while at the same time helping people with allergies (like myself) build up a stronger immune system. 

Freeing the bees and closing down these farms makes these bees more susceptible to the environment around them. They’d become pests to someone else, which is going to lead to even more pesticides unleashed upon them. Killing the farm is going to lead to the complete death of the species.

I’m trying to support Bees the best I can. I buy local honey and support the industry… unlike other food products, natural honey made by small companies aren’t exactly hard to find in the US. But that’t about all I know. 

“Managed honey bee colonies supplement the work of natural wild pollinators, not the other way around. In a study of 41 different crop systems worldwide, honeybees only increased yield in 14 percent of the crops. Who did all the pollination? Native bees and other insects.”

Apis mellifera, the only specie kept by beekeepers for making honey, isn’t a native specie to the American continent, but even where it is native it’s not supposed to be everywhere and in such great numbers. The result of their introduction is the decline of the pollinators already here, which are often better pollinators and are able to pollinate every plants in the ecosystem they are in, which is not the case of apis mellifera.

From a study in Australia : “In contrast, native bees were more than three times more abundant at the few sites where honeybees were absent, compared to those where they were present.”

From a study in Israel : “The results provide partial evidence for behavioral competition between honeybees and native bees. For this reason, we recommend prohibiting introduction of beehives to all nature reserves in Israel, as a precaution aimed at protecting the native bee fauna. This may help conserve their contribution to biodiversity and pollination of common and rare native plants as well as crops.”

From a study in California : “This pattern suggests that B. occidentalis colonies exposed to competition with Apis experienced increased nectar scarcity and responded by reallocating foragers from pollen to nectar collection, resulting in lowered rates of larval production. These results provide evidence that Apis competitively suppresses a native social bee known to be an important pollinator, with the potential for cascading effects on native plant communities.”

The introduction of apis mellifera is also causing other species of pollinators to get diseases. While beekeepers try to protect their hives from it, the native pollinators aren’t protected at all.

“Diseases that are common in managed honeybee colonies are now widespread in the UK’s wild bumblebees […] Our results suggest that emerging diseases, spread from managed bees, may be an important cause of wild bee decline.”

Native species already suffer from pesticides and habitat loss and you’re only aggravating the situation by buying honey.

Apis mellifera isn’t an endangered specie of bee, and it shouldn’t even exist in a lot of places. Native pollinators, on the other hand, such as the thousands of other bee species, are the one in actual danger of extinction, and some of them are already believed to be extinct.

1. “it takes a huge toll on the body, and most people can’t do it for health reason”

According to who? Not according to most health organizations that’s for sure. For example, the American Dietetic Association, The Dietitians Association of Australia and the British National Health Service all state that a plant-based diet is a healthy diet.

2. “Most vegans or vegetarians are rich upper middle class white people”

So maybe you’ve heard about the Indian population, with more than 300 millions of people who don’t eat meat, which actually makes it the largest vegetarian population, not rich upper middle class white people.

3. “It is expensive”

No it’s not. What makes the basic constituents of a plant-based diet usually are food you already consume, such as grains, beans, legumes and fruits, which are less expensive than meat, dairy and eggs.

4. “Veganism and vegetarianism is not readily available to most people”

If health and money isn’t an issue for becoming vegan, i don’t see why it wouldn’t be readily available to most people.

5. "it is not cruelty-free”