fan of Batgirl and Huntress and Signal and and Wonder Woman, corruption comes from lack of connection to other people, greatest heroes are ones who regularly help and listen to individuals and community groups
If anyone is interested in creating a group project based on these analyses, I have editable versions. I'm interested in if people want to add characters before I get to them personally, have a different analysis, or disagree with how I divide versions of the characters. If someone wants to discuss pre-Flashpoint and post-Flashpoint versions of Cassandra Cain, or combined pre and post-Crisis versions of Bruce Wayne and Kal-El and other characters, that would interest me. They're at:
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I was looking on the DC wiki Batfamily page (I'd been looking at something else originally and got sidetracked down the article hole, no idea what anymore) and legit saw the phrase "Batman took on violent street urchin Jason Todd' in the article
So it's not just DC writers who describe homeless kids like cartoonishly evil Victorian nobles the fans are doing that too??? Why are we bringing street urchin back. who asked for this. You know they're BARELY restraining themselves from calling him a street rat. And "violent"??? he was literally just a kid who knew he needed to defend himself from adults to survive, he wasn't stabbing people, leave him alone.
Anyway. I changed it to "homeless child Jason Todd" like is it so hard not to neutral in our language, do we not have to spew hatred for poor people every time we say anything.
The article also skips over Steph becoming Robin and War Games and instead attributes Azrael's death as the turning point which causes the Batfamily to "splinter" instead which. No hate on Azrael, I haven't read much with him but a lot of my mutuals like him and he seems like an interesting character but. I don't think I ever saw his death mentioned outside his title. In fact I recently saw a post by an Az fan about how Babs and another person were the only people who really talked about it/about missing him. So I don't think that was it.
Stephanie becoming Robin is important in any history of the Batfamily! War Games, including Stephanie's death, were why they splintered until Infinite Crisis/OYL. War Games was why Babs left Gotham. Bruce not allowing Tim to know his ex-girlfriend was dying and denying him a chance to say goodbye to her is all but stated to be why Tim leaves Gotham for Bludhaven. Cass is then asked by Bruce to look after Tim and goes too. Learning about Stephanie and seeing how cold Bruce is being about it makes Dick peace out too. The whole point of the event, as stated by the creators, was to split up the Batfamily and isolate Bruce again.
But that will take a lot more to edit since I'll have to cite stuff so. Not as easy as cutting out a classist insult. I'll maybe do that later.
Dukeâs mom inspiring him to be the Signal ;; he loves her so much :( | âMy mother, sheâs a social worker, and she always goes out first thing in the morning to meet her clients. She says itâs the best time to see things clearly. To see them in a new light.â
Something i love about Bart and Max is that every time, without fail, when Bart gets scared or unsure of himself and/or the situation, he goes, "Maaaax?". Like, this is a constant for every comic I've read so far and in the screenshots I've seen of other comics. Maybe he'll say another name after Max's, but it's always his name he calls out first for help.
Like thatâs his (word for significant person that isnât a father but also is similar in some ways to the point that itâs often easier to simplify as dad but itâs not itâs more complicated)
Cass' Batgirl series is providing good characterization. I think I'd rather have Cass appearing more often as an important character in other series than having a solo series though as it would show her connecting with people and mattering to her family. Steph is getting those connections in Tate's New Titans series while Cass is staying disconnected from almost everyone.
One annoyance I'm having with Tate Brombal in his Batgirl series is that, as with her original series, nothing she does matters to anyone except herself. Her appearances, even in Birds of Prey and DC K.O., never get mentioned or referenced anywhere else. When the Birds visited the Justice League satellite in Justice League Unlimited #1, Cass was excluded from the team. She's rarely shown helping her family. Batfam events regularly focus on Batman and the Batboys. Will the same be true of Bad Seeds or will Cass and Duke and Steph actually matter to the beginning and ending comics?
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You might've been asked this before, but what r ur thoughts on Batman and The Outsiders (the newer one), especially when it comes to how duke is characterized in it?
I picked up the 1st tpb because my goat Cass is in it AND I've been meaning to read more duke. I thought it was fine, (tho I've never been the biggest fan of Orphan/Rebirth Cass), but I'm curious on ur thoughts on Duke's characterization since ur the resident duke expert and if both duke and cass aren't particularly great in the series, then I prob won't read the rest.
(idk if any of that made sense đ)
DW this makes total sense!!! Tbh I am of two minds about B&TO a lot of the time. I prefer it as a Cass story over a Duke story - this is partially my Rebirth Cass apologism coming in, but it's also one of the better modern Shiva-Cass stories and there's a sweet Bruce-Cass moment in the last issue. Bryan Hill is also one of Cass' staunchest supporters which I adore!!!! If you don't like Rebirth Cass it might not be for you, but imo the Cass stuff isn't bad :)))
As for Duke, I personally don't like his characterisation at all. They overemphasise his loyalty to Batman in the beginning, and also focus too much on him feeling out of place in the Batfamily (which I've always disliked as a Duke conflict. It's not that he can't or shouldn't feel out of place, but 'belonging to the Batfam' should never be his main internal conflict). B&TO is important Duke lore because it develops his powers, but I think the execution of that part is incredibly sloppy. Duke barely gets a chance to react to his new powers, and there's barelyyyy any angst when it could've been mined for way more!!!!
If there's one thing to sum up B&TO Duke it really is wasted potential. There are some good Duke moments towards the end, but overall I don't think it's a good encapsulation of his character. I will say Bryan Hill does a much better job with Duke in DC Power Company Recharged, if you want to see Hill's Duke in another setting! And ofc a lot of people like the series for Duke & Cass' interactions which are pretty cute. I am also pretty iffy on the execution of that, but that's just my personal taste!! Anyway idk if this helped at all dgskjlbsdgk but I hope that clears things up at least a little!
I recently learned that a comic Fabian Nicieza wrote before he was assigned to Tim Drake comics was the Elseworlds series JLA: Created Equal. It put the focus on strong and independent females. That's requiring me to rethink my assumptions on how much respect he had for Cass as a character. I forgot that in Red Robin (2009) #19, he had Tim create a Justice League for the Unternet based on the people he trusts most instinctively. Unsurprisingly, he had his Young Justice and Teen Titans team mates as most of the members. He also had Kara Zor-El as Superman and Cassandra Cain as Batman. Fabian's opinion was that, while Tim originally was scared of Cass, he had learned to trust her and thought of Cass as a better Batman than Dick.
I missed that Fabian Nicieza hid in the comic that he felt that Battle for the Cowl should have had Tim pushing Cass to be Batman instead of Tim being one of the contenders for the cowl. Of course, Battle for the Cowl ignored that Tim never wants to replace Batman. He wasn't happy that her only appearance in the story was in the Network one-shot even if he wrote that appearance.
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One thing everyone constantly gets wrong about Batman in Batfamily fanfiction is his moral code. Hes not a utilitarian. We often see Bruce be put in situations where heâs trying to protect âthe most peopleâ while one of his children want to protect one person at the potential cost of all those people. The children will probably let a criminal go in favour of saving a civilian or disobey orders. This would lead to a conflict between Bruce and his kids. But this is NOT batmanâs character. He would always prioritise the life of one person over the larger process that would lead to saving the lives of many. His entire ideology is that (A) every life is worth saving (B) He cannot take a life. This means he cannot allow a person to die if his direct actions can prevent it, regardless of the indirect consequences. The biggest example here is the Joker, killing him would easily lead to saving many lives that the joker would take. But Batmanâs moral code prevents it because he does not want to cross that line. Even tho Jokerâs continued existence means more people dead. Similarly, regardless of the overarching consequences, Batman would ALWAYS be the person trying to save every single life regardless of long term consequences. He applies an immediate moral code to situations, he cannot do âwhat it takesâ thatâs fundamentally against his character
A lot of fanfics do this just to create conflict and ensure that batman looks like an unreasonable okayish father. Honestly, i find it redundant. He already does a lot of things that make him an unreasonable okayish father, he doesnât need to be character assassinated on top to make the kids look right, it takes the back and forth away from the dynamic between him and his children. Each child is a mirror reflecting back and a line running parallel. Theyâre supposed to be a part of him on inverse to create discourse that is sensible on both sides, removing it, makes his flawed children and his very flawed self, appear so much less interesting than they are
Anyway ofc writers can write and HC whatever they want but these are my two cents for the day
My biggest issue with Fanon Jason is that there are several characters with his traits, but because theyâre not white dudes they donât get as much attention
This is Catwoman about a year before Jason coming back as Red Hood. If you want a character who wants to protect sex workers and kids in low income areas, itâs Catwoman
Huntress has guns and kills, and the stuff with her conflicting with various Bats is really interesting (I really liked the Huntress/Spoiler: Blunt Trauma comic, as well as her other stuff in No Manâs Land)
Orpheus (Gavin King) wasnât around for long, but heâs really interesting. Heâs very anti-racism, and the comics about him directly show topics like racial profiling and police brutality. Again, someone who specifically protects people in low income areas, working in ways Batman canât.
Cass' first language is body language and specifically fighting. Batgirl (2000) #28, Batgirl (2000) #50, and Detective Comics #796 show that she's best at connecting with people and understanding them when fighting them or sparring with them. I also think that helping mental health groups, instead of relying on Arkham as Gotham's only place, would be something she'd consider important.
Gotham is a stressful place to live with lots of mental health problems and threats. Cass has already been shown teaching people how to defend themselves in Batgirl (2024) #2 and DCeased: Unkillables #2. Free self-defense classes run by Cass to help people defend themselves without needing corrupt police or the bats is something she'd think of and love. Seeing the people she's teaching speaking her native language would also allow her to observe their feelings in more depth than she usually manages. She's been in Gotham for years at this point and healing so she has more understanding of people than she did when she arrived in Gotham and first became Batgirl. I have a hard time believing that she wouldn't notice people who are hurting and need help with their mental health. After noticing multiple people who need help, she could easily get help from Duke and Steph, who are better with words and community than she is, so that her self-defense classes would also be a free mental health clinic. Duke and Steph would also help out with the self-defense classes when they have time.
Ultimately, there would be free self-defense classes plus emotional comfort and advice for problems in peoples' lives provided by class and, in the same building, a free mental health clinic run by Duke and Steph with patients referred by Cass noticing people who need more help than she's able to offer. This would be a way to actually help people who are hurting instead of sending them to Arkham Asylum/Arkham Tower.
The main question I have is whether Cass would teach the classes as a civilian or as Batgirl. Teaching them as Cass would require her to hide her full fighting skills and observancy of body language as Batgirl is well-known for those abilities. That would lessen her ability to fully teach people and help out, when she defines herself by how much help she can provide people, so I could see her teaching as Batgirl in order to not have to hide her skills while protecting her family's secret identities. That would annoy Duke, and especially Steph, as they'd have to be Signal and Batgirl at the clinic. It's also possible that she'd teach as Cass and try to protect her family's secrets.
It feels like most Batfam followers only know of Cass for her interest in ballet and don't have any idea how she'd help people outside of crime fighting and punching people. The newest episode of Batman: Wayne Family Adventures has Cass and Duke and Harper and Jason and Steph suggesting ways to help people using money stolen from the Penguin with Cass being the only kid not suggesting anything. When I pointed that out, the only response from WFA fans was that she'd suggest funding ballet groups and arts, like corrupt and selfish billionaires in the US, instead of anything that actually helps people.
Babsâ friends from the Arkham Center for Independence (ACI) in The Oracle Code, Yeong and Issy <3 Yeong has meningitis and Issy suffered a spinal cord injury!
Their story with Babs below the cut~
We first meet them when they show up at Babsâ door, as they live in the same wing as Barbara and want to introduce themselves and offer friendship to her, as sheâd just moved in.
Of course this entire transition and new life are hard for Babs, and since sheâs already hurt about her friends from before her accident ghosting her, she decides to keep them at arms length at first. She pretends she canât attend Yeongâs basketball game, which hurts Yeongâs feelings and she snaps at Barbara, calling out her behavior.
Later, Yeong and Issy show up at Babâs room to talk. They have a really good convo here, where they encourage Babs to let herself make friends without worrying about them leaving, and to really get involved with things at the ACI to help her adjust to her new life â and to realize how much she can still do.
Yeongâs favorite activity, wheelchair basketball, is the perfect example of this â and Yeongâs game really cheers Babs up. After this, she stops pushing them away and they really become friends <3
When Ben, Babâs friend from the GCPD that âghostedâ her after she moved into the ACI, comes to make up with Babs and bring her info she canât access from the Center, Yeong and Issy stand by to make sure everythingâs good and that Babs is okay <3
When Babsâ other friend in the Center goes missing, she asks Yeong and Issy for help â and they agree instantly, which throws Babs off completely.
Yeong and Issy help Babs find the secret entrance to a lab underground where theyâre testing on patients to âcureâ disabilities. They all find a bunch of their friends who had allegedly âleftâ or âgraduatedâ from the Center there, all kids who didnât have families or guardians to notice their absence.
All the âpatientsâ are stuck in beds, too weak from the experiments to move. Being stuck in a hospital bed reminds Babs of her own time in one right after her accident happened, which causes her to have a panic attack. Luckily, Yeong and Issy are there to help her out of it.
Yeong finds one of the girls she and Issy remember, Shanta, and their presence is enough to wake her up. They ask what was happening down here, and she explains the experimental therapy the doctors have been doing to them to âcureâ their disabilities. However, she says that she hasnât improved at all, and is actually in pain from the âtreatmentâ â this is when one of the doctors introduced earlier in the book as their seemingly nice physical therapist shows up, outing himself as a nut job that is dead set on âfixingâ them.
Because theyâve seen too much he pulls a gun on them and forces them out of the room. Luckily, he also deeply underestimates them, so he just locks them in a closet, thinking thatâll be good enough. But Babs is a master at âold-school hacking,â aka lock-picking.
They break out just in time to surprise attack the doctor and get back Babsâ phone so she can call her dad. Together, the three of them take down the bad guys and free the prisoners of the underground lab~!
After the lab is exposed, Gotham General takes over the ACI and lets the current patients stay â so Yeong, Issy and Babs have plenty of adventures ahead of them ~ love this trio so much đ
It feels like that's because most Batfamily stories are actually discussing Bruce and using the Batkids to discuss how he changes and grows. Only a tiny minority of Batman fans actually care about the kids as independent characters separate from Batman. Damian's family only gets discussed through the lens of Talia's impact on Bruce.
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Absolute Catwoman #2 includes Selina mentioning that there's something familiar about Cass. That may mean that they have met but they weren't close.
The ending of the issue, showing Cass and Shiva looking at the map with the Yarn's location, and the information about the Yarn has me thinking anew about what could be coming. I'll be surprised if the next couple issues don't focus on Selina and Shiva both searching for the Yarn, helped by the Calicoes and Cass respectively. During the search, it's safe to say that there will be more fights, both the Calicoes versus the League of Shadows and Selina versus Cass. As Selina encounters Cass repeatedly, she may eventually realize what's familiar about Cass. Hopefully, as Cass observes Helena and Vic, she'll eventually start showing her dislike of seeing people hurt.
It's possible that the main conflict will be Selina and Shiva competing over what reality they want to create using the Yarn. Issue 2 ends with Selina thinking of the idea of creating a new story unlike the one she's locked into as she wants to regain her freedom though she's complaining that her friendship with the Calicoes has made her less independent. Shiva probably wants to undo the Joker's massacre of the League of Assassins. That would fit with her not being a hero who wants to help people but also not being a villain who wants to harm the world. Cass would agree with that goal and they probably both hate the Joker. Vic is obviously against anyone using the Yarn, considering any new reality to be dangerous.
The finale could be the Yarn activating and Selina and Shiva competing over what reality to create. The Calicoes, including Holly who has probably been rescued by then, could be trying to convince Selina to accept the current reality and their friendship with her. Cass' loyalty is hard to break and right now, she's loyal to her mother. In mainline, she's extremely loyal to Batman and trusts his goals even when she disagrees with him which causes headaches for her friendship with Steph. It took committing murder, causing immense emotional pain for Faizul in the process, to cause her to abandon her father. If Cass notices that Selina and the Calicoes are hurt badly by what Shiva wants and what she's been doing and if Shiva is being purposefully cruel to them, that could be enough to cause her to side with the Calicoes instead of her mother. Cass possibly would try to control the Yarn herself and try to create a reality where Selina and the Calicoes both get what they want and she never met Selina, possibly even never existing in the first place as she needs to make up for the pain she's caused them. I'm assuming that Selina would be the person who keeps Cass from erasing herself. Afterwards, she would need a mission to help her make up for her sins and handle her guilt complex, as with mainline Cass.
